Most of us were outraged over Pat Robertson’s words, giving the OK to divorcing a spouse with Alzheimer’s Disease. However, after thinking it over, maybe we should thank him. He made us think of something that is fairly repugnant and he forced conversation. We have probably had more discussion because of Pat’s ill-fated remarks than we have since Ronald Reagan announced he had been diagnosed with the disease.
What do most of us know about Alzheimers? Does it run in families? Does it hit those in middle age? Are there different types? How many of us knew it was the 6th leading cause of death in the United States? I sure didn’t.
Are there legal reasons for divorce? Will divorce protect the surviving spouse from liquidation of assets if the afflicted spouse has to be institutionalized for care? That’s something to think about. I know several folks who chose to shack up to protect their retirement assets since remarriage would kick them out of the system. Can divorce provide the same safety net?
Finally, people divorce over mental illness and substance abuse all the time. How many of us would chastise a person for divorcing a spouse who was institutionalized because of severe schizophrenia or other chronic mental diseases that seemed hopeless? We are very forgiving about that. How is Alzheimer’s any different?
Maybe we should thank Pat for providing the impetus for discussion. These are definitely discussions that should be taking place. Until Pat shot off his mouth, we just weren’t talking.
As an advocate for those with Alzheimer’s Disease & Other Dementias, I am deeply disappointed by the National Alzheimer’s Association not coming out with a stronger statement to what he said. Of course, the cynic in me knows that Alz Assoc at the National level based in Chicago has evolved into a very active PAC and the real action down at State/Local level.
I would like to hand that jackrabbit a list of all the Veterans who have received brain injuries, or the young men and women in sports who receive concussions leading to disorders. TBI may be a household word because of a decade of the sandboxes, but the various diagnoses were in the Alz Assoc list way before household phrases. Wonder if he would change his tune then since he is soooooo, soooooo patriotic?
And as for the children who receive concussion injuries in sports….well, since he advocates for divorce in cases of ALZ, is he next going to say parents should go to court and legal disown their kids?
Those are good questions. His remarks sure made me start thinking in a way I have never before. Why is it that I think it was so much crueler too divorce someone with Alzheimers than someone with a mental illness like schizophrenia? I don’t know but I do.
I even asked my husband if he would divorce me if I had Alzheimers. He said no. I looked to see if his fingers were crossed. It was not something I had thought of before.
I don’t think Pat is all that well himself but I am grateful that he started the conversation, for whatever reason.
hmmmm we still aren’t talking about this.
Nope…all the discussion ended up in the prior week open thread…LOL!
“in sickness and in health” ? Maybe we should change those words to “in health only”
I haven’t listened to what Pat said, what was his intent?
I found out at lunch today that he had a question about a man who was seeing another woman because his wife had had alzheimers for years. Apparently Robertson felt it was better to divorce than to ‘live in sin’ or something to that affect.
Ray, we can make it happen. You are right. I just think there is a lot of content to discuss.
Pat is famous for putting his foot in his mouth but this time I think the fault m ight lie with the fact that he wasn’t fully quoted nor was the context given.
Steve, I am moving the discussion here in hopes that others will join us.
Do you think that ministers, priests and rabbis should qualify their answers or only answer biblically?
Only answering biblically becomes a thorny issue for those ministers, rabbis and priests who rely on works outside the bible proper for guidance. Many ‘mainstreamers’ believe that there is much symbolism in the Bible.
@Moon-howler
I guess that would depend on whether or not the statements are, as Catholics refer ‘ex cathedra’, on a subject that has distinct religious implications, or on a purely secular subject. Render unto Ceasar, what is Ceasar’s. Render unto the Lord, what is the Lord’s. A Pastor or other religious leader is a person, and as such will have their own opinions. However, when an opinion differs from that which is foundational to their particular faith, they are having a crisis of faith. If they cannot reconcile to two, at the very least they should keep their opinion to themselves. That is why I cringe whenever I hear Jackson, Sharpton, and Wright referred to as “reverend”. Again, all three are Protestant Pastors, so I am reading from the same book as those within their denomination. Many of their public statements, and in the case of Wright, statements from the pulpit are directly contradictable by scripture. At least in Jackson and Sharpton’s cases, it is pretty clear that they are acting in a purely secular fashion, in which case they should stop using the “Reverend” title.
@Moon-howler
“Only answering biblically becomes a thorny issue for those ministers, rabbis and priests who rely on works outside the bible proper for guidance.”
No problem with this, provided that these “other works” are not in direct contradiction to the Gospels. If the “red-letter” text clearly says “don’t do this”, and some other work says “doing this is OK”, a Christian should place more creedance in what Christ says, than what this “other work” says. Yes, there are passages that the meaning is open to interpretation. But in many cases, the meaning is quite clear, and without ambiguity. This is what I am referring to.
That was easy. Agreed. It’s the other works that people generally fight about anyway.
Last June Mrs. Guapo was experiencing back pain. When it got unbearable they told us to bring her to the ER. They gave her some powerful narcotics that knocked her right out. I stood there all day. I was dying of hunger. But I thought it was important that I be there should she awaken. I wouldn’t have been able to live with myself if I had gone out and called the office or got a snack and she woke when I was gone.
Marriages fall apart, and people get divorced, but if someone you love deeply falls ill with Alzheimer’s or another illness, how could you even consider abandoning that person?
But that’s how some people are. The other day someone did their business in the men’s room and stunk it up. It was horrible. My eyes were burning. There’s a spray can right there. That person left that room with a pungent disgusting odor without even taking the minute to spray around. I don’t know who did it, but I’m wouldn’t put it past him to abandon someone who has spent years loving him when things get inconvenient.
As to Alzheimer’s, it is a terrible disorder–as the son and grandson of Alzheimer’s victims, I wonder every day it tomorrow will be the day when my soul will begin to fade away and I will look in the mirror and find a stranger.
Although I didn’t know him well, I watched Tom Debaggio, who developed early onset Alzheimer’s at age 57, slowly fade away. He wrote two books about his plight before the window to his mind closed. They are: “Losing my Mind” and “When it Gets Dark.”
With Tom and his wife Joyce’s permission, NPR followed him for several years and if you go here you can hear and read about his battle. He is gone now, released from his suffering and I pray that he has found peace.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127857149#9542011
I spent 7 years working as a hospice patient care provider and there are only two other diso rders that I find as frightening as Alzheimer’s. They are Amyptrohic Lateral Sclerosis (Lou Gehrigs’s Disease) and Parkinson’s Disease. Both eventually rob you of first your body then your mind. I took care of several patients with these two terrible disorders and you would only wish them on your worst enemy.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/06/20/sunday/main6600364.shtml
Here is the story of Barry Peterson of CBS and his wife Jan Chorlton. Jan’s Alzheimer’s began to attack her at age 40. She and Barry are still married but she lives in an Alzheimer’s home and Barry continues his life and lives with a woman who is a widow. I do not condemn him. His wife Jan not longer has any idea of who he is–yes he could divorce her but he has chosen not to and even went so far as to make his situation public. So before anyone thinks to condemn his– THINK.
I live every day with a wife who has suffered significant brain damage from two strokes, yet she is walking and talking but her short term memory is extremely limited. She has a Mensa level intelligence (a 4.0 student from Kindergarten through a Master’s Degree plus a Phi Betta Kappa key) and yet she does have problems. I have talked extensively with her neurologist as to whether this is setting her up for Alzheimer’s but the neurologist says not so; however, she may eventually suffer from early brain aging–something entirely different. Unless we die early, we all suffer from brain aging–our brains begin to shrink as we get older and we do lose some capacity but it is not the same as the various dementias, including Alzheimer’s. So we live each day and love each day and enjoy life.
@Steve Thomas
This whole response just bugs the crap out of me. Steve, I gather you are Catholic and, if so, to say you are, ” reading from the same book as those within their denomination.” is pure baloney and you know it. And are you telling us that priest never speak “ex cathedra” and don’t take of their church garments. Again–baloney. Although I don’t often agree with those “Reverends” they have as much right to be called “Reverend” as priests have to be called “Father”.
@Steve Thomas
Thanks for the clarification. But will repeat : Although I don’t often agree with those “Reverends” they have as much right to be called “Reverend” as priests have to be called “Father”.
Obviously we are going to disagree on religion. If we didn’t, we would all be the same thing. Most of us choose what either makes us comfortable or what satisfies our inner spiritual needs. We don’t all end up at the same place and that’s ok. Even religions in the same denomination don’t agree.
There are all sorts of flavors of Presbyterian and all flavors of Anglican and Episcopalian, just to name a few I am familiar with. If we can’t even agree within the same denomination, then there isn’t much hope for agreement once we step outside into someone else’s domain.
Having said that, Let’s talk about divorcing a spouse with mental disabilities. Is there ever a justification for doing so? I look at divorce through secular eyes. I also live in a glass house in this department so I am fairly slow to criticize. 🙄
@El Guapo
I am not much for bathroom discussions and I don’t think I am the only one.
Please. That just isn’t a suitable topic for this blog.
“What do most of us know about Alzheimers? Does it run in families? Does it hit those in middle age? Are there different types? How many of us knew it was the 6th leading cause of death in the United States? I sure didn’t. ”
Moon, you asked the question in your opening…and thought I would in part answer it. Most people on the street know there is Alzheimer’s Disease, but just like science, tough to know root causes (although more is learned everyday). It is the most common dementia known, although there is a list of others.
Who does it affect? Suprisingly, the Alz Assoc reports that it can begin at age 45, and 17% of any given population may have either the beginning symptoms, or affected by Alzheirmer’s or other Dementias (which include TBI of which the majority are concussion related). “Any given population” means you could take the 402,000+ living in PWC, and estimate that around 65,000 have a condition/potential for condition.
For those that are interested, I recommend the following link to raise awareness of dementia (again, Alzheimer’s is the best known):
http://www.alz.org/alzheimers_disease_what_is_alzheimers.asp
@Raymond, that is just darn scary.
On Religion:
I once walked into an Army Chapel to pick up the NCO who ran it as we were having lunch that day. He was in the store room, unpacking a box of Bibles.
There was the RSV, NSV, Catholic, “The Living Bible”, Douay-Rheims, KJV, and on and on and on in terms of versions. In order to speed things up, helped him unpack.
On the back of the store room door, in his handwriting, was a small sign which read: “how can you talk about one true bible when I have to stock 52 versions of the same book?”
Ken cracked me up with that one!
@Raymond, I think Ken was a very wise man. Its a good thing to remember lest any of us get too dogmatic about content.
I guess what I would say is “there but for the grace of G-d go I”. I have not been in a position where I was caring for someone with Alzheimers. I hope I never am. However, it is not my place to judge someone else and their decisions. I would like to think my husband would take care of me, and visa versa, but unless you are in that position, you will never know.
@Ray Beverage
How true–everyone’s bible is the “True Bible” if they want it to be. Even the Dead Sea Scrolls don’t represent the “True Bible”. Certainly the New Testament was an oral “history” for many years and since Christ himself didn’t leave any written documents behind, we can only guess at what is the “True Bible”. And if you want to throw another kink into it, remember that Christ was not a Christian, he was a Jew and would probably be considered a rabbi by many. Maybe the apostles were “Christians” in that followed the teachings of Jesus, but in reality they were practicing Judaism. When they even tually allow ed uncircumcised Gentiles to join them did they begin to move toward what we today think of as “Christianity.”
@George S. Harris
George, I grew up under the umbrella of the Roman Catholic Church….and wisely as I walked through life, walked away from it. One of the things drilled into my head via Catholic School (and the old Baltimore Cathechism was “God is our Father, the Church is our Mother. And only our one true church is the custodian of the one true Bible.” Looking at the other versions was a “no-no”….and I remember how even attending some other Church Service had to be reported in Confession.
Of course, this is based on the creation of the Latin Vulgate Bible endorsed by the Council of Trent, and evolved into the Confraternity Bible to bring it toward Standard English phrasing (which I grew up with). The Douay-Rheims is considered still, by “Mother Church” to be the most reliable of all the Bibles out there in terms of content and translation.
But I found in my walk through life and taking the gifts of reading and comprehension drilled into my head with me, that to understand people, read their sacred texts. I spent a year in Korea (courtesy of the US Army) and some of the most fascinating times was sitting and talking with a Buddhist Monk. He was funny as I always thought of Shangri-La (that great film “Lost Horizon” and Sam Jeffee as the High Lama) especially when he sat smoking a cigar!
Also encountered Shintuism and several other Eastern Religions. All writings have a common thread, and traditions seem to interlink sometimes. Sort of like what you write that Christians sometimes forget their roots.
God is LOVE and the HEART knows the TRUTH! That’s ALL I got! LOL 🙂 ( enough said )
@Ray Beverage
I won’t get into my feelings about the Catholic Church but your point about talking to the Buddhist Monk is a very important one–at least as far as I am concerned. Although I consider myself a “Christian”, I no longer go to an organized church because in my experience, church dogma always gets in the way. My big argument with Christianity is what I believe is the condemnation of all souls before the advent of the birth of Christ. And the same can be said of all non-Christrian religions since the birth of Christ. I simply refuse to believe that thre is only one way to whatever we consider the afterlife to be. Your point about the interlinking of religions is a good one. They all have some sort of “creation” story, while I cannot say for sure, but many have a disaster or “flood” story and it is fair to say that all have some salvation theory. Who is right? I don’t have a clue and am wondering if I am going to come back as a Irish Setter, a whale or a lowly rat or dung beetle. Maybe being a dung beetle would not be so bad since there is so much crap in the world. It could be a good life and since your are first in line, no one hands you any crap.
If we could live by these simple commandments the world would be a far better place. Maybe they had it right after all–just maybe.
Native American Ten Commandments:
1. The Earth is our Mother, care for her.
2. Honor all your relations.
3. Open your heart and soul to the Great Spirit.
4. All life is sacred; treat all things with respect.
5. Take from the Earth what is needed and nothing more.
6. Do what needs to be done for the good of all.
7. Give constant thanks to the Great Spirit for each new day.
8. Speak the truth; but only of the good in others.
9. Follow the rhythms of nature; rise and retire with the sun.
10. Enjoy life’s journey, but leave no tracks.