The Board will have only have a 2:oopm session tomorrow. The agenda for the meeting appears short, the most important item on the agenda is after the closed doors session which is the start of the budget mark-up. It’s not too late to share your thoughts on the Fiscal 09 Budget.
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Michael says, “The greater moral compass is compassion and sympathy for all those “legal” poor affected and undermined by the “illegals” using up all the resources and causing even more poverty, crime and lawlessness.”
No,Michael, the greater moral compass extends to the entire world. However, for practicality at the moment, let’s narrow the scope to our area and our state. If we fix the neighborhood problems, allow the police to do their regular jobs (which includes identifying undocumented criminals) and put our money into programs that benefit all instead of just a few, then we can have what it is we all want: a thriving area with attractive and safe communities.
If our leaders want to lobby for immigration reform, let them do it at the federal level where the responsibility and funds reside.
But you can bet that FAIR will no longer continue to be the only game in town. Some of us WILL fight for just reforms at the federal level….reforms that benefit our country and our world.
Resident, here is the SOLUTIONS thread. Go for it.
http://www.antibvbl.net/index.php/2008/04/05/solutions/
Admin, you might want to post a “solutions” label/link on the right to help people get back to the correct string. Just as suggestion.
And if you want more solutions, Citizen, a list compiled by various residents, see http://luxuriouschoices.blogspot.com/2007/10/love-thy-neighbor.html
KG, thanks for the link. You may have noticed that I have posted there since it was my post that said we should be talking solutions rather than just railing against something or someone. So with the support of others, the Admin established the section. However, repeated requests for putting it as a link on the side have not resulted in it. BTW, I did not make the suggestion of putting it on the side–others did because they thought the thread was positive and they were concerned it would be lost.
I am not calling anyone any names and if my posts sound like it sometimes to some people, it is not intended and I would apologize if it pointed out to me. I don’t doubt that people are busy but an article put on the front page in the Metro section is not exactly hidden, and I waited 12 hours from when I saw the article before I mentioned how curious it was that it wasn’t posted here. I was surprised it was printed in the Washington Post actually. The link could have been simply placed on the front page of this blog with a simple intro like “article with a different point of view” and then allow the comments to argue the specific points.
The lack of it, however unintentional, made this blog to appear to be biased. I do not know the Admin, nor do I know anyone on here I assume since this is anonymous but I was addressing an appearance that the absence of the article conveyed.
A PW County Resident, are you a poster at BVBL? If so, your argument would be more credible if Greg had posted this article front and center:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/19/AR2008041900943.html
Why the desire to take this blog to task when you don’t bother to post three or four times to ask Greg to post an article critical of Stewart? It seems you’re only interested in tsk-tsk’ing one side.
I have never posted on the other board. I have looked at it before and did not find the approach there to my liking.
I have never said that I do not find this board more welcoming. But since I posted the simple question, I have only replied to people challenging me for asking the question.
I have been called a whiner, the word “a-hole” was used although I believe it was not about me and I asked a clarification from the poster. And now, I am branded as biased in the other direction “It seems you’re only interested in tsk-tsk’ing one side.”
How about reading my solutions post which is about the third post down? Read it and tell me that you know what is my motivation beyond what things have been said about me above.
This blog should strive for credibility even if other boards do not. Credibility means having the openness to post opposing points of view for legitimate discussion. And when someone points it out, it appears that some posters on this blog would rather descend to name-calling.
My simple first post was “Is there a reason that the article in the Post today has not been mentioned on this board?”
That sure was inflammatory was it not?
Do I think the Admin has a bias? Perhaps I should ask a question–is having a bias bad? Bias in my opinion means I tend to a point of view that is formed from my experiences, learning, and intellect. I am biased and make no apologies for that. Bias has often been equated with prejudice, which in a sense it is.
But not all prejudice is negative nor is all bias. Racism on the other hand, is one of the basest forms of bias or prejudice. If I tend to be liberal or conservative, that is a bias and a prejudice, or I “pre-judge” something based not on facts but on my own inclinations.
To “pre-judge” or have a negative bias about others to whom I do not know just because of their skin or nationality or a myriad of other things, is despicable and that is when bias or prejudice takes a negative turn.
So what if Admin has a bias? I sure hope she does because you can’t be a positive activist if you can’t frame your own opinions. All leaders have biases. I have many and I would venture to say that everyone posting on this board has many.
The danger of bias is when judges use bias to decide cases rather than the facts because we expect judges to lay aside their personal opinions in favor of facts.
I cannot post the article in plain view except in a specific thread about something else. I am sorry if I offended people here by making my comments about the need to present opposing points of view in order to demonstrate credibility. I guess it is an awful thing to do.
By the way, my “solution” suggestion is about the third one down on this page–
http://www.antibvbl.net/index.php/2008/04/05/solutions/
“the word “a-hole” was used although I believe it was not about me and I asked a clarification from the poster.” Citizen, one more time, I was NOT referring to you as I clarified here:
“Sorry….the “a-hole” thing was back at Elvis:
“elvis said on 21 Apr 2008 at 7:29 pm:
Kgotthardt,
what is your freaking problem? panties in a bunch? that time of month? you need to relax. there is not a conspiracy behind every door Your blood pressure must be through the roof.”
“Incidentally, I have very good blood pressure. I have little trust or confidence in our government, however.”
The real “A-holes” are in our county government, in our state government, and in civic groups that promote hatred and racism. (Again, see http://luxuriouschoices.blogspot.com/2008/04/racism-in-prince-william-area.html) I used the word “A-hole” out of frustration and anger, not something I would do when making a public address or sending the BOCS a letter. I realize the name does not suit some of these people’s liking, but if the shoe fits…..
In this discussion, an “A-hole” is someone who promotes racism, is a public figure working with complete disregard for the human and Civil rights of all, wreaks havoc on justice and the democratic process….you get the picture.
Citizen, an “A-hole” not someone who complains about the placement or lack thereof of an article. (Though I still think you just should have posted it, then asked why it wasn’t posted. But that’s me.)
A PW County Resident, I’m familiar with your solutions thread. I’ve posted in it.
Why not simply link to the WaPo article instead of challenging admin.? Most of us had probably read it and would discuss it with you. You appeared to be more interested in why it hadn’t been made into a thread within a certain timeframe rather than discussing its content.
KG, I agree that I did not think you meant me.
I made mention of it and said I asked for a clarification. The reason I made mention of it was because if you read my threads, my subsequent posts got increasingly angry at being pounded for asking a simple question. I wanted Censored to understand that my anger was based on name calling.
I apologize for not making that clear in my latest post. It was a lack of communication and explanation on my part.
I want to make it very clear that after your original explanation, I do not in any way think it was directed at me. I originally did and that started me to get angrier in my posts. But I should have explained it better.
Oh good! And I’m sorry if you misunderstood. Interestingly enough, the reference back to Elvis would have made more sense had I completed typing two minutes earlier….the “A-hole” posting would have followed my first comment to Elvis. Anway, I want to look again at your solutions. At first glance, you have some good ideas! (And I understand increasing anger obviously LOL)
Poseted by PW County Resident at http://www.antibvbl.net/index.php/2008/04/05/solutions/: “I would say that we first tighten boarders to control the influx — otherwise you always have a moving target. Then you have a national registration program for 90 days. If you get registered you can qualify for a drivers license or ID card. You would need these because the state/local officials could pass laws that say something like–no drivers license or ID, no job and no home. Meant as an enforcement tool not in a mean sense. Employers would be required to check the drivers license or ID before hiring or landlords before renting. An employee could cerify each year to the state or local that they are not enploying people with proper documentation. If they certify incorrectly, fine and withdraw business licenses. If they lie, criminal penalties could also be imposed.
The registration would be for a limited time like a year or two. If the person is not intending to stay here for citizenship, their registration (and ID/driver license) would expire on the same day. They could request an extension but I have not thought that through yet (Maybe they could cite that their child is an american citizen and has a short period before adulthood). The extension would be automatic if the person takes documented steps for citizenship and would continue until that process is concluded. Of course, during the registration phase, a certain amount of background checking and health reporting would be undertaken before the person is given a registration. These all took place at Ellis Island so there is precedence for that.”
YES, RESIDENT!!! EXACTLY! And when we do all this, we can allow them a path to citizenship. If they are criminals…they GO! In addition, allow companies to sponsor while the employee is going through the citizenship process.
KG, thanks for bringing that post up but I am afraid that I have inadvertantly highjacked this thread. I originally posted here because it was the first thread after the publication of the Post article that I was referencing and I thought it should have been posted at the same time as this thread about citizen time.
I really dislike it when threads are highjacked and I am certainly at fault here and I apologize.
I wonder if there could be a permanent place on the opening page for issues could be raised that could grow into a thread if the Admin deems it worthy. I don’t know if it is technically feasible but it would then allow us to independently raise issues and lessen the burden on the Admin.
Again I apologize for my role in highjacking this thread. I would rather spend my time on the solutions section as I think it is time to talk about concrete ideas.
By the way, KG, I responded about your post above back on the “solutions” page.
So Elana if I understand your position, the original passing of the immigration law was tainted because some undesireable self-segregating ethnic group supportted it.
Does that me you believe we have not need for any immigration law, and that everyone in the world should come to our country in whatever numbers they wish, regardless of the impact, and unreasonableness of the growth rate and cultural impact, or national impact?
I seriously doubt that a nation’s sovereign need to create and enforce immigration law is ever going to go away.
The issue is really, why does a nation refuse to enforce its law, designed to protect its people? Answer, it being run by ignorant social elites and social engineers, who have never seen a nation implode due to poor leadership, ignorance and ethics. The last nation that imploded from social engineering ignorance was the Soviet Union.
Regardless of the “few” ignorant individuals who cross the line on the ethnic group identification discussion, or the point out to a blog sites reporting of those related racism incidents of a few ignorant people, I see no evidence that the rule of law resolution is written with any racism in mind. I see a lot of commentary that most people supporting it, take issue with anything other than the law applies to all peole regardless of gender, religion, race or ethnic group.
Hey Resident, I’m glad you kind of hijacked–it illustrates the need for what you suggest….a permanant place for solutions.
BTW, just got back from the meeting. GL and his suburban thugs thought they needed to sit behind me (I was alone) and talk about me. That’s the kind of methods he and HSM try to use……intimidation and harassment. I would NEVER go near him and try to physically intimidate or threaten, so you can see the difference in style. Then he greets one of his pals saying, “What’s up, Nazi?” with the Rabbi sitting within earshot right in front of me! Nice guy, huh?
Glad Mr. Nohe spoke up and asked if speakers could refrain from giving their addresses because as we know, many of us including me have been threatened by GL.
I’m sorry that happend, kg, but thank you for continuing to speak up during citizens’ time.
Kgotthardt, you ladies did a good job. You all should be proud. I watched on my tv. I’d sent emails to all supervisors over the past couple weeks.
Those sound like Greg’s thuggish tactics. And he wonders why so much of what he touches implodes…
KG, sorry that happened. I have to believe that if people really understood the tactics that they employ to win is hurtful, things would change. I do not know “he who must not be named” on this board nor have I met him but I fear that given the right circumstances I may also also be unfeeling to my fellow man. Because I also like to win arguments. 🙂
I hope not but frankly one side or the other has no corner on the market of being strident in their approach.
Thanks for the support! Fortunately, two good ladies sat with me later. I don’t think anyone should have to put up with that kind of crap.
I like to win arguments as well, but winning isn’t as important as finding a solution and helping the most people. This isn’t some game to see who can get the most votes (reading this Mr. Stewart and Stirrup?)–it’s about PEOPLE and how we can all live together, still maintain our opinions, and work toward a common good.
There was a lady speaking today that I’ve met before. She and I are on opposite ends of the opinion spectrum. Yet, I don’t think she is a racist or a mean person or evil. What makes people “evil” is hatred, disregard for others, persecution, harassment, etc. I’ll go round and round about policy issues and never think someone is “evil” until there are violations of human and civil rights. That’s where the buck stops for me, and it MUST stop NOW in this county.
BTW, I’ve never met GL either, but he’s taken the time to single me out online, through my home email, and now in person. What’s wrong with THAT picture??
kgotthardt.
I think there are answers to that….I think someone has pointed out about everything you need to know in life, you learn in Kindergarten….I tried to google and found this….miss ex cheerleader…lol
http://www.uncfsu.edu/cheer/everything.htm
ANYWAY, all kidding aside, what would you tell your kids when they come home with this same scenario? The bully, etc…. It just strikes a nerve when ADULTS can’t lead by example, no matter what side anyone is on
Redawn, I don’t know you but will you also speak out when people demonize people who agree with the resolution? Just wondering.
Just to clarify, KG I absolutely agree with your fore-sighted thinking to look to the larger world as the greater moral compass. However, my point is that to achieve this, we cannot destroy or ignore the health and stability of our local and national efforts at home, to take care of those here in need that are legal, before we take care of those in need in the greater world that are “illegal” in this country. We as a nation have very limited resources to solve the entire world’s problems, so we need to solve and protect the heath of the “base” effort, before we can expand and take care of the “satellite” efforts, in all but the most extreme cases of malnutrition and misery. We have an obligation to help the most desperate, but not if that also means destroying ourselves by being generous to anyone who would take advantage of our generosity, for thier own self-interests to the point of our national financial failure, collapse of our local communties and economy and destruction of our own American culture. You are playing with fire here when you try to do both (and think you can intellectually handle it without consequence) without regard to the potential consequences of failure to maintain a national unity, culture, financial strength and community welfare. There are lessons in history of destroyed nations who were of this same national level of consequential ignorance of historical facts regard how cultures and nations take over each other and exploit this ignorance.
A PW County Resident,
Redawn, I don’t know you but will you also speak out when people demonize people who agree with the resolution? Just wondering.
YES, I do! I speak to everyone when I speak. I just choose not to get sucked in the conversations of racism, etc. When I speak ( type), I speak to EVERYONE. NO different from this blog or the other. Good question 🙂
Redawn has often spoken out when someone is being offensive, so have many others. You cannot police a small percentage of misfits and people with nothing but malice driving thier options and comments, so you have to look at the character and purpose of the majority of the people involved in an activism debate. Then you have to understand the basic underlying principal to support. The anger occurs in multiple layers over top of a base problem. It’s geting to the root understanding of the real problem that must be solved. To me regardless of the overlying who said what to offend whom (trivial debate that spins cycles of retributional argument and sparring), the underlying problem is that “illegal” alien entry into our communties has far exceeded that allowed by the law. That is a fundamental problem, that needs fixing. The proper fix is to reduce the number of offenders, to a level consistant with what the law allows. That level is some 12-14 million people, too many. That is the number that must be found over time and deproted until the law allows lawful entry and sustainable growth. Without the law we have lawlessness, financial decay, community decay, and cultural decay. No other insult can compare to this in level of importance to the nation’s general welfare and security, stability, growth and cultural health. Seperatism, multiple languages, multiple self-segregation, language segregation and cultural segregation are all illegal, self-destructive, and very harmful to a nation’s general welfare and long term economic and lifestyle survival (i.e the survival of American ideology and philosophy). When you undermine this as evidenced in many examples in history a nation collapses into fragmented “factions”. Factions was a concept that John Adams the framer of the constitution was most afraid of, as he new it destroyed nations and rights of people (individuals).
Michael,
I am so HAPPY to see you have made it over here!!!!!!!!!! The mind keeps ticking 🙂
LUV IT!
Redawn, thank you for your response and thank you Michael for your comments.
You will not see me criitize another person here for their opinion. I may disagree with the opinion and will address that, but I cannot in good conscience be a judge of others’ hearts.
By the way, I can be accused of being a conservative but having conservative feelings is not a reason for being branded a racist or intransigent. I am actually very activist about respecting the rights of others to differ from me.
A PW County Resident,
I need to remind you that you are a guest here. You have come here balls to the wall with everyone and it isn’t appropriate or appreciated.
Do not criticize the Blog owner. It is her blog. You are here at her invitation. If you don’t like how she runs things here or her timing, go start your own.
If you want to fight with people, go check out the Black Velvets. They are generally up for a few rounds or 2. You will find that we are a fairly reasonable group and generally can discuss different ideas and remain polite. We will not remain polite if you pick at our Admin and that is a promise.
“Moon-howler said on 22 Apr 2008 at 9:24 pm:
A PW County Resident,
I need to remind you that you are a guest here. You have come here balls to the wall with everyone and it isn’t appropriate or appreciated.
Do not criticize the Blog owner. It is her blog. You are here at her invitation. If you don’t like how she runs things here or her timing, go start your own.
If you want to fight with people, go check out the Black Velvets. They are generally up for a few rounds or 2. You will find that we are a fairly reasonable group and generally can discuss different ideas and remain polite. We will not remain polite if you pick at our Admin and that is a promise.”
And this came from out of left field? Could you please explain this attack a little more? I made no attack on anyone here, especially the Admin. Where am I fighting with anyone? I truly do not understand.
I really am waiting to find out what Moon-howler is saying to me. I am frankly somewhat astounded.
Hmmm, interesting blog this is.
A PW County Resident said on 22 Apr 2008 at 9:39 pm:
I really am waiting to find out what Moon-howler is saying to me. I am frankly somewhat astounded.
Good luck on that score. I’ve already been called racist by Moon-howler–tried to contribute something to the dialogue, but she insists on playing that losing race card.
One-track mind, often derailed.
“It just strikes a nerve when ADULTS can’t lead by example, no matter what side anyone is on” Even sadder, the little bully pretending to be the sympathetic level-head was sitting right behind me taking part in the “conversation of intimidation.” Her CHILD was sitting right next to her. Nice role model, eh?
“we cannot destroy or ignore the health and stability of our local and national efforts at home, to take care of those here in need that are legal, before we take care of those in need in the greater world that are “illegal” in this country.”
Michael, I completely agree! You can’t take in or take care of the whole world without addressing your own health first. It’s a metaphor that works personally and nationally. BUT, the people I am talking about are those who have been here and have been contributing members of our society already. I’m not suggesting taking in more people–in fact, I’m a “close the doors for now except in very specific cases” person, at least until we get this mess straightened out. This isn’t about my bleeding heart. It’s about stopping the hatred and disintegration of our unity.
My daughter has been reading aloud the chapters on Civil War from her Social Studies text. Every time she reads a passage, I see this county and country as it is now–cracking at the base. Last night she read about Lincoln who said he would neither abolish nor support slavery because maintaining the union was what was important. He could not do that, no matter how understanding he tried to be, and we know the results: the greatest number of Americans ever killed in a war came through our own Civil war.
Congress MUST move on this NOW unless they want to see the further crumbling of our nation. They need to be fair, economical, and wise in making their decisions.
Unfortunately, Congress’s only sense of economics to this point has been to use immigrants for what they can get out of them. Mass arrests and deportation, as we have seen in PWC, are far too expesive and time consuming. We can’s afford it, nor can we afford to wait.
If there is one thing FAIR has done in using us as “lab rats,” they have shown the world the devastation their policy can have. We have become a microcosm for social and economic disaster.
Moon-Howler, I don’t see Resident as a racist or anything like that. Yes, she was critical of Admin (which I don’t think was necessary), but since when is that a sin on any blog or in any form of media? Bashing a publication is pretty standard (people to it to WAPO all the time, and I’ve done it to several papers and television networks).
Resident’s solutions also don’t seem very off base to me. (By the way, I’ve called Resident “Citizen” a couple of times. Error on my part. Sorry.)
So let’s stop the bickering, eh? Let’s analyze MICHAEL! Hee heee. I like his focus and his tone is generally respectful.
I don’t believe I have called anyone a racist on this blog. Emma, I believe you are mistaken. If you find my words calling someone a racist, please let me know. Those just aren’t accusations I generally make. I don’t know if you are or aren’t.
KG, I have not called Resident a racist. See above. There is no bickering going on. I said what I had to say and that was that. Please don’t think there is going to be a debate. Frankly, I was attempting to watch the BOCS meeting. It was sad to see the ruination of our county happening before our very eyes.
MH I can’t stomach watching any more of that than I have to. The lack of indepedent thinking that goes on in the BOCS is astounding.
It was pretty miserable to watch for sure. I had it recorded because I had a family obligation earlier in the evening. Several times I did the rewind thing because I couldn’t believe my own ears.
Prince William County truly has gone to the dogs.
“Prince William County truly has gone to the dogs.” Yup. And we know exactly who is feeding the dogs. I’ll give you a hint. It’s not immigrants and not people who want justice.
Who was it that said they missed the Patriot? I believe he has posted on the Washington Post comment section regarding our non funded police cruiser cameras.
It sure sounds like him.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/22/AR2008042202832_Comments.html
Thanks redawn good to see you too!
KG good points. I disagree that we should let the current “illegal” alien population just stay, regardless of how long they have been here. It is not enough to just “close the border” now and wait. The damage has already far exceeded a point of “wait and see” and past a point of no return. That last critical juncture happened with the huge mistake that Ronald Regan made, granting amnesty to those who had made it here in multiple illegal entry schemes. The end result was a rapid increase in 10-15 million new “illegal” people, and a rapid influx of 10-15 million more over the 20 year period. Those new people saw and learned when you break the law there is no consequence. If you stay hidden long enough you can do whatever you want and not get caught. This in spite of a decade of promises to “secure the border” after the first amnesty debaucle. You and I both know that the cultural group self-segregation is everywhere and very visible in the news and culturally aligned protesting communities, and these people are illegally engaged in unifying rallys around an ethnic group cultural line that has no intention of suddenly “getting religion” and upholding individual civil rights concepts of the 60’s as something more profound than supporting their own racial, gender, religious and cultural “groups” agendas and priviliges. This one fact, a lack of belief in individual rights, and a belief in Group rights and group superiority as an “ethnic group”, an arrogance as an ethnic group, a separatist view on multi-language insistance, and blatent business practices engaged in generally hiring only thier own kind, is in violation of civil rights concepts “to the core” of what activist groups in the 60s and 70s achieved. This “new-age” or “new world order” social engineering is undermining all that great “individual” civil rights work, and turning it into something that is little more that fracturing of the US, and “factional” group self-segragation, cultural subversion and anti-US and American sentiment inside of our own borders. Any social engineer who supports such “group rights”, national subversion, and cultural subversion concepts is undermining the very core of national security, stability, peace, general welfae and American individual civil rights values. All you need to do to determine the reality of that fact is look along the lines of communication and advocacy. If they fall along gender, religious, racial, and ethnic group political lines, they are illegal, destructive and subversive to the US constitutional bill of individual civil rights.
It is imperitive the people here “illegally” understand and abide by the law, self-deport or if they remain are eventually located and forcefully deported, so they ALL understand that the law of this land will be upheld, and that to defy it is to suffer consequence. Then and only then will people stop flooding the border, because there is a price to pay for “illegal” behavior and criminal ethics.
I do not believe that law enforcement at the local level in every single town and city in this nation is going to be expensive, and is far, far, less expensive than the social security cost, social services cost, and illiteracy cost we must bear if we let even one “illegal” alien stay. That is not a cruel concept, that is a legal and community preservation concept, which involves punishment for a crime committed. The empathy to wish to do othrwise, does not justify the risk to our national security and general welfare. The hand out occurs, after people return, and get in line behind the people they bypassed illegally. This then regulates the unreasonable growth to something manageable and allowable by law. To let the current “illegal” population stay is to invite far more illegal behavior, and encourage those here to break other laws (illegal hiring practice, the practice of discrmmination in the workplace, black market proliferation, hired thugs, street gang growth, self-segregation and intentional language separatism). It has been my experience (having a once illegal alien wife) that the greatest threat to this nation is a total disregard for any individual civil rights concepts and a focus only on cultural unity and identity, political advocacy along gender, religious, racial, and ethnic group lines, intentional language segregation, cultural self-segregation, and total disregard for US individual civil rights concepts except when they can use it to support and claim privilige enhancing and benefiting just their own gender, religious, racial and ethnic group cause.
That is what is wrong with “illegal” immigration and it cannot be allowed to continue, nor can current “illegals” be allowed to stay. The damage has already been done with an excess of 12-14 million people who believe only in these culturally subversive principles. That “belief” is a national security and national general welfare threat.