Joe Scarborough told some tales out of school on Chris Wallace. On Morning Joe, Scarborough announced that Chris Wallace loathed Mitt Romney but never said why. He said it was common knowledge over at Fox News, even though Wallace would deny the allegation.
Romney will appear on Chris Wallace’s Sunday Show this weekend. In other words, he ventures into the lions’ den. Political analysts say that Romney has to get over the good guy image and throw a few punches at Newt. He can’t let someone else do it. He has to mess up his own hair and get his own knuckles bruised.
I can’t imagine that a political party who smugly prides itself on its virtue will send Newt Gingrich into the ring against Obama. Gingrich has an EWWWWW factor that turns ordinary ‘baggage’ into a fleet of steamers. (Remember the scene from Titanic?) Newt is a philander who tried to oust others when his own behavior was probably worse. He was run out of congress on an ethics charge and somehow ended up with over a million dollars from Freddie Mac. He is the quintessential insider. Why on earth are Republicans supporting this dirt bag? I can’t believe people are turning up their noses at Romney and Huntsman in favor of this nasty little man who is long on arrogance and short on consistency.
I know he’s smart. Please help me understand the attraction. I honestly don’t get it.
Hard to believe that the party that claims Family Values as part of their platform is considering Newt to be a viable candidate. If Newt becomes the candidate, GOPAC shenanigans will become the front page, bu the Right will blame the media – where is our collective integrity when we bring someone back like this? I would rather vote for Mickey Mouse – and if loyal Republicans really stood for what they say, he would not get past the few (relatively speaking) people that vote in a primary.
Pat, I think you deserve a standing ovation for that comment! I couldn’t agree more!
One of the attractions to Newt, and was also attractive about Cain was best said by President Lincoln and for much the same reasons:
“I cannot spare this man! He fights!”
Romney’s political positions doom him as too similar to Obama. Can’t be trusted to fight.
Cain…gone.
Bachmann….”too” socially conservative apparently.
Huntsman…..no traction….too bland…too moderate? Don’t know. He doesn’t stand out.
Perry……is Perry. His Texans say he’s great. His delivery on that….not so much.
Paul…..is Paul.
Santorum…nope. No charisma and too one note. Too much immigration not enough everything else.
Who’s left?
Establishment GOP has even put out a memo not to attack Obama…WTF?
At least Newt fights back and is good enough at answers to answer intelligently. And what fixed it for a lot of people….he has admitted making mistakes, personally and politically. Up front, in interviews. He doesn’t hide from interviews.
Does his “big” government solutions scare a lot of TP people and libertarians…yep. That’s what primaries are for. In fact, some are willing to vote for Obama as the lesser of two evils because WHEN is all collapses, at least one of the major causes will be in office to be blamed. Those are hoping that we take the Senate and keep the House. Gridlock is a good thing, they think.I think that GOP establishment isn’t sure if it WANTS to win this race. And I don’t trust the GOP to fall over itself to cooperate with Obama so that it gets good press. And I sure as hell don’t want Obama to appoint anymore idiot judges like Kagan.
The problem with the whole thing is too many TP and libertarians want the impossible. ALMOST EVERY politician is a pro-gov’t person. That’s why they entered politics. And that include Palin, Paul, Gingrich, etc. I say “almost” because some of the TP people that have just joined truly do want to downsize government.
Either you go to war to win or you stay home. And this is a war for survival of the country. And so, Newt’s ratings are rising. We want Obama defeated. And his programs and structures dismantled, burned, and buried, and sown with salt.
We’ll have to settle for Newt, apparently. At least HIS shenanigans are already known.
The party of family values also believes in redemption.
Redemption for everyone but Clinton?
Who is WE this time? Repubs? TP?
What do you have against Kagan and why call her an idiot? I can give you reasons why I call Clarence Thomas an idiot, starting with his wife.
The party of family values needs to go in for a transfusion if they would consider Newt. His personal philandering and dickery are minescule compared to his over all lack of ethics. I truly believe that he would lie down with any thing or any body to get a vote.
I grant you he is smart. I would rather see someone like Michele Bachmann in the Oval Office than Newt. At least I don’t think she is lacking ethics and sleazy. I just find her politically repugnant. There is a huge difference.
Also… unless you’re planning to vote Republican…..
Wouldn’t you WANT someone like Gingrich if you think he’s so bad? Are you saying that the bloom is off the rose and you’re thinking of voting for the GOP in the Presidential race?
I want the best candidate. I did not want McCain last time – and did not vote for him. I will not vote for Newt in a primary, and will not vote for him if he becomes the candidate.
If he does become the candidate, it just shows that the people voting in the primary vote the establishment, not the qualifications of the candidate. Having Newt on the ballot, makes it a no brainer for me – as there is no decision to make.
I will vote for the one with the most presidential experience.
I agree with Pat. Putting Newt on the ballot makes it a no brainer. REJECT! FLUSH!
I also have to say this. When Hillary was First Lady, many folks, Republicans specifically, made jokes about her and talked about her as though she was the nastiest bitch on earth.
Today, she is spoken of like a saint. Yesterday I heard someone say she was the one fit to run the country. How time flies when we are having fun.
I hope she gives the middle finger to everyone who ever laughed about her and the right wing conspiracy. The lady was right on. She was my choice. It wasn’t to be. So I decided to act like I did when Bush was elected. I will have to say, I am much happier than I thought I would be. Probably that has to do with deciding not to be negative.
Obama exceeded my expectations. I have also been on this earth long enough to know that no nation comes out of a deep recession overnight. Only children have immediate need fulfillment.
When Hillary was First Lady, she got involved into the politics and that made her a target.
I don’t know of ANY conservatives that think she’s a saint, or has been a great Sec of State. I do feel sorry for her for being Obama’s Sec. And I do think that she would have been better than Obama.
If Obama has exceeded your expectations…then your expectations were lower than mine……much lower. OMG. Our economy and foreign relations are in this state and this is “exceeding” expectations? He advocates wealth redistribution and killing our energy industry and that’s exceeding expectations? His justice department runs guns to Mexico, launders money for cartels, he attacks Libya, pushes bills that no one knows what is in it, thinks unemployment money will create jobs better than a pipeline, real unemployment is over 11% at best and he advocates more of the same,etc….and that’s exceeding expectations?
What were your expectations? That our country would spontaneously combust, break apart, and sink into the sea?
The economy was in the tank before he took office. He is blocked by an obstructionist congress. What do you want him to do? It takes a long time for an economy to come back after a recession that deep. Most major economists warned us it would take quite a while, at least 5-6 years. I believed them. Foreign relations? I didn’t think they were great before he took office. Just who did we have a good relationship with that we don’t now? I am not displeased with our foreign policy. I think we are seen in a better light by some, if the truth be told.
Its sort of insulting to tell someone they had low expectations. I would have chosen the word ‘different.’
I know plenty of people who think Hillary is doing a great job as Secretary of State. I didn’t ask them their political persuasion though.
Why do many like Gingrich? He’s not afraid.
Because he says things like this: There is no “right of return” for the “Palestinians.”
and http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2011/12/10/gingrich-tells-truth-about-palestine-msm-goes-in-a-dither/
It’s “delusional to call it a peace process,” claiming that the Fatah-run Palestinian Authority and Hamas alike “represent an enormous desire to destroy Israel.”
Its that kind of thinking that creates terrorism–when people have no hope. The Palestine people have been in the area now called Palestine for thousands of years. That’s like saying that the Lakota are an imaginery people. Newt is so full of crap.
It really isn’t any of Newt’s business about right of return. Its the business of the Israelis. It probably won’t be solved in our lifetime. Look at the English and the Irish. However, if you really want to stay at war forever, only talk to the Israelis. There is more than one side to much of this.
I know exactly what Newt is up to there and it will probably backfire.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXCZVmQ74OA
@Cato the Elder
That one is AWESOME.
Unfortunately, he won’t get the nod.
Howabouts…..Gingrich/Paul 2012!
I’d vote for him if he gets the nomination.
@Moon-howler
“Its that kind of thinking that creates terrorism–when people have no hope. ”
No. What creates terrorism is a desire to commit terrorism and war. They lost. And their charters demand the death of Israel and everyone in it.
The surrounding nations do not allow the Palestinians, or as they are more properly known…Jordanians… or Arabs….to settle and keep them in artificial refuge camps.
There is no right to return. They assisted in a war of conquest and lost. They attempted to kill the Israelis and lost. Too bad for them. They want a separate state? EASY. STOP SHOOTING AT ISRAEL AND RECOGNIZE THEIR RIGHT TO EXIST. Period. Become peaceful. Stop teaching their kids to hate Jews and embrace suicide would be a good first step. The Palestinians have created a culture of death.
“They Lost” bothers me. It bothers me a great deal. Who is “they?” I don’t believe that the Palestinian people had much of a voice in all this. It seemed that the victors laid out the way things would be, namely the United States and Great Britain. There could have been room for the Jewish refugees and the Palestinians if any care at all had been taken. The Brits lied to both the Palestinians and the Zionists from WWI through WWII. I guess they were imaginary people to them also.
Speaking of terrorists, who was one of the leaders in the bombing of the King David Hotel?
Violent times. They They They They. Holy cow. Stop with the broadbrushing. The imaginary Palestinians and zionists fought with each other for years. Some also lived peaceably side by side. You are lumping the entire Arab world into one thought. You are doing the binary thinking thing…all Arabs are bad. All Israelis are good.
Newt made me sick in what he said about the Palestinians. Imaginary people? How effen dare he! Does he know any Palestinians or is he just tuckis kissing?
The more I think about this the madder I get. Are you aware that people who lived in Palestine lost ancestoral homes and lands that had been in families for 2000 years? How on earth can some pillsbury dough boy just come along and call an entire group of people ‘imaginary?’ That is detente for sure. NOT!!!!
How can he reduce all of those people to just being Arabs? Why not just take the entire people native to Europe and reduce them to being caucasians? Remove all their identity other than that. Newt is so belittling. Is that what you mean by ‘unafraid?’ To be rude, crude and unconscious of others feelings? (sort of like how he treated the ex wives?) Redemption involves change. I see no change. I still see the same SMUG A-hole who is calling for Clintons removal as he shoves his own mistresses head under the desk. I still see a mean ugly little man who doesn’t gi ve a damn about anyone but himself. He will cross pollinate, not for the good of the country, but to ingratiate himself to whatever he deems as the desirable end cause.
yes, Newt is smart. So is Satan. I would rather see poor old bumbling Rick Perry as president and that would be pretty damn embarrassing.
I don’t want to hear a word about Clinton or Obama as long as some of you Republicans strut out these national buffoons for president. In Newt’s case I think national whore might be a better description. ewwwww ewwwwww ewwwwwwww
Rant over.
I agree that Israel has a right to exist. Howver, there will never be peace until respect is shown from both Israel and the Palestinians. There is a great deal of history that has obviously been whiteswashed from most people’s collective memories or more specifically, the politically expedient textbooks.
Newt….unafraid? How about foolish. And an arrogant blowhard.
I can reduce them to the people that assisted the invading Arabs that attacked in 1948 and 1967 and 1960-1970, the Yom Kippur War…etc. In the 1948 and 1967 attacks, the surrounding states told the Palestinians (who, by the way, at that time, REFUSED to be known as Palestinians because they were Jordanian) to leave their homes and get out of the way of the “soon to be successful” invaders so that they could then return to a land free of Israelis. The men assisted in military operations against Israel.
When I say, “They lost.” I mean those that invaded and attacked the nation of Israel in a war of conquest. They lost and lost territory. The “arabs” that I am supposedly broad brushing, is the name of the ethnic group to which they belong. Palestinians are Jordanians. The West Bank was Jordan. The Jordanians are an “arab” people. There is no such thing as a Palestinian except in the minds of the PLO. THEY invented the term to separate themselves from the rest of the arab nations surrounding them.
There will be no peace until ONE side sets down its arms and accepts the right of Israel to exist. Israel has already shown respect to the Palestinians. When they pulled settlers out of GAZA, they gave up millions of dollars in productive farm land, handing it over to the Palestinians. The Palestinians destroyed it and used it as a missile launching site. It gives up land. It seeks peace. HAMAS and FATAH call for the destruction in their very charters. And they were democratically elected.
I laugh at the UN’s attempts to attack Israel through their machinations while those same countries were perfectly fine with ignoring the UN’s primary statement on Israel…it’s creation.
Palestinian armed forces hide behind children, women, schools, and hospitals. Israeli soldiers protect those things. If the Palestinians lay down THEIR arms, peace would occur. If the Israelis lay down theirs, there will be another Holocaust.
As for your abhorrence of Newt and our supposed hypocrisy…why do you like Clinton if Newt is so horrible? We can produce a score card of women….I think that Clinton is winning in number of women total and number of women apparently assaulted. But..that’s ok because he’s Clinton and the evil right wing was “persecuting” him. Of course…..its all about sex…not perjury.
If we can’t talk about other candidates because of OUR candidates, then no one will be speaking.
We’ve got our candidates…..you’ve got a former President that hasn’t met a dictator that he doesn’t like and supports HAMAS and FATAH – Carter. You’ve got a serial, compulsive liar that assaults women – Clinton. You’ve got another compulsively lying ideologue willing to give billions to donors, arm drug cartels, launder their money, kill industries, all to advance his agenda – Obama.
I think I can handle having a man that has had two divorces and being convicted of an ethics charge of lying to the House Committee. The ORIGINAL complaint was not decided upon and ultimately cleared by the IRS. So…how’s Pelosi and Rangel doing…they’re still in office right? Feinstein too? All that money going to family members and no one does a thing?
Do I want Gingrich as candidate? No.
Will I vote for him if he is the candidate? Yes.
Because Obama, as a second termer, without having to worry about re-election, will structure our government and push legislation that is harmful to this nation. His political philosophy is anathema to the ideal of limited government constrained by the Constitution. His scandals are already being dragged out. The difference is that the press is not attaching them to him. If it were a Republican in office….that President would have been held responsible, and rightly so, from day one. HE is the executive. If this is going on without his knowledge…he’s incompetent. If its going on with his knowledge…he’s a treasonous bastard.
I think calling the President of the United States a treasonous bastard is unacceptable conversaton on this blog. I believe your politics have taken you way past the boundaries of good manners.
You need to learn to use the term SOME in conversations. Right now, I just see some questionable remarks about Arab people. All arab people are not terrorists. All Palestinians aren’t Jordaneans. Those people, both Arab and non Arab, who occupied the area known as Palestine, had lived there for many centuries. Zionists also lived there. You are clearly spouting the Zionist POV. Do you think there is another? There sure is. And it is just as one sided.
I would like to have a discussion that doesn’t dismiss the Palestinians all as a bunch of invisible Arabs who actually were from another country. There are 2 sides, both sides have some valid points. Regardless of what has happened in the past and which conquoring nation ‘owned’ Palestine, there are people in this area who lost ancestoral homes and who became refugees. This fact cannot be disputed. By the same token, some 60 plus years later, Israel does exist and has been given the right to exist both from others and by its very own scrappiness. I do agree that it cannot lay down its arms now and could not since its formation.
But there is middle ground and if there is to be peace, that middle ground has to be found. They came close to finding it several times. Very close. It can be done. I am not sure it will be done but it can be.
Something to consider….if you talk to Lakota people, who are some of the poorest of the poor in America, they still hate the white man aka Americans because they felt their lands were stolen from them. Truthfully, they were, in particular, the Black Hills which was sacred territory. Even though the courts have ruled that the govt. broke treaty and that money is due to the Lakota, they haven’t taken it. Why? They want their sacred lands back. That seems rather absurd to me. The reality is, they are not going to get the Black Hills back. If someone came up to my house today and told me I was on ancestoral grounds, I would call the cops. Too much time has passed.
Probably 1967 was the last ditch effort. Its time to let it go now.
@Cargo,
If you don’t like Newt, why the blood, sweat and tears over defending him and really shotgunning every Democrat you could think of during your rant? If I were a Democrat, I sure wouldn’t go to that much trouble over John Edwards. I don’t even hate him. I just think he is an unprincipled rat bastard who probably will have lots of explaining to do to Saint Peter.
You really do hate Democrats, don’t you? That was such a rant you weren’t even making sense. Carter, Pelosi, all sorts of people because I (and many others) find Newt morally repugnant? I have disliked him intensely for 25 years. Nothing that i can see has changed about him. He is still the same old arrogant reprobate that he has always been. His personal life is only important because it further illustrates just how hypocritical he is. He want rules and laws for everyone but the great Newt. Personal redemption? Bwaaahahahahahahahaha. I always thought that was coupled with a willingness to change. He is personally and professionally unethical and has been for years.
Do I occassionally agree with him? Yes. That doesn’t make him less morally and ethically reprehensible.
Fewer lousy Democrats might have made your diatribe in defense of Newt more believable. The mass shooting just made you seem angry and irrational.
ps might I make the say claim about Bush being the executive in charge and that he was incompetent because he didn’t know about CIA agent Valery Plume being outed? That would be a place to start.
Say what you want about Bill Clinton. He isn’t a hypocrite. Its the hypocrisy I find the most revolting about Newt. He wants to correct everyone but him. I don’t hate Republicans like you hate Democrats. Many Republicans feel just like I do about about Newt Gingrich. They probably don’t even like Bill Clinton.
To put it in a nutshell…if Newt is elected….the Republicans are just acting like Democrats.
We’re playing by Democrat rules.
@Cargo, please stop with the insults to the Democrats on here. No one is broad-brushing Republicans.
I don’t even know what Democratic rules you are referring to.
I almost forgot…here’s why I call Kagan an idiot…though to be more accurate, its the Senators that allowed her confirmation that are the idiots. And concerns about her honesty and her lack of real answers during confirmation WERE brought up.
http://floppingaces.net/most_wanted/kagan-busted-must-recuse-herself-or-face-impeachment/
In another internal DOJ email communication that same week, Kagan alerted the chief of DOJ’s Office of Legal Counsel to the constitutional argument that a former U.S. Appeals Court judge was making against the use of this rule.
During her confirmation process four months later, Kagan asserted in writing that she had neither been asked her opinion nor offered any view or comments regarding “the underlying legal or constitutional issues related to any proposed health care legislation, including but not limited to [PPACA], or the underlying legal or constitutional issues related to potential litigation resulting from such legislation“.
Kagan answered both questions: “No.”
And the emails appear to prove that she lied under oath.
A federal law—28 U.S.C 455—says that a Supreme Court justice must recuse from “any proceeding in which his impartiality might reasonably be questioned” or if he “expressed an opinion concerning the merits of the particular case in controversy” while he “served in governmental employment.”
Even more troubling is the fact that the Holder Justice Department is redacting documents and even withholding critical evidence of Kagan’s relationship with the defense of Obamacare.
A fleet of steamers?
Would those be Cleveland Steamers?
@Cato the Elder
Wuh?
Here you go Moon. This is what I’m talking about:
In 1977, during an interview with the Dutch newspaper Trouw, PLO Executive Committee member Zuheir Mohsen described the stratagem as this:
“The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism.”
Specifically I said this, and now with emphasis: IF ITS GOING ON WITH HIS KNOWLEDGE…he’s a treasonous bastard. If he’s just finding out, he needs to arrest the appropriate people and set up an investigation.
I mean, what do you call it when the government is running guns illegally to the enemy of an ally? The ATF committed acts of war against Mexico. If he knows about it…its an act of war.
As for mentioning the other Democrats…..I was just mentioning some ethically challenged Democrats that haven’t been investigated or kicked out of office. The press has no time for them. Feinstein, Rangel, Pelosi. And Carter and Clinton have their own issues.
Democrat rules are the ones that allow unprincipled politicians all the leeway they can get to get them elected to advance an agenda. See Clinton. See Obama.
You bring up the scam of Valerie Plame as a moral equivalent to Fast and Furious? Really? 300+ dead vs one manufactured scandal? Ok, then.
And you need to actually learn the history of the Palestinians. The Jordanians ruled the West Bank as part of Jordan. That means the Palestinians were Jordanian. The Palestinians elected HAMAS and Al Fatah. And previously they elected the PLO. And they raise their kids to bomb Israelis. Am I a Zionist? No. But as you said….Israel is there. And the UN formed their country and would have formed a Palestinian one right next to it. The Palestinians, Egyptians, Lebanese, Syrians, and Jordanians invaded instead. I’m supposed to support a people that cheer suicide bombers, that danced on 9/11, that kill innocents on purpose, including children?
And the Palestinians continue to support the destruction of Israel. And they continue to fire rockets and send in terrorists. And they continue to celebrate the murders of Israelis.
What middle ground is possible with people whose intention is to kill you? Either the Palestinians stop attacking or the war continues. If they want a state…I don’t care. Have one.
But then….there are no terrorists. If an attack happens…..either Palestine arrests those criminals or admits that they are in a state of war.
Cargo said:
And you need to read some history that is from neither a Palestinian or Israeli point of view. Try to find something value neutral. Also I suggest talking to Palestinian and Israeli people who lived through that experience.
Neither conversation sounds like what you just wrote. What you just wrote sounded very prejudiced and one sided. There are 2 sides to this story. Neither side is being represented well by the extremists in the respective groups.
One other thing. Do you seriously believe that the nation of Israel would have formed without the backing of the United States and Great Britain? Ever read any of those private exchanges?
There’s a great deal of NIMBY and and good sprinking of guilt.
You know what I remember about the 90’s and Newt’s congressional leadership Cargo? A whole of MY wasted tax dollars on Ken Starr’t relentless investigations into the stupidity of “gate” paranoia!
Filegate
monicagate
fostergate
whitewater gate
blah blah blah!
Those vicious republicans tried EVERYTHING to find dirt on Clinton, not policy or ethical violations of his office, but stupidity!
All the while concerned about what Clinton did with his junk, Osama Bin Laden was building his forces. When Clinton approved the bombing of the pharmecuetical plant in Pakistan the hate driven Republicans cried “wag the dog” “wag the dog”.
They could have cared less about the growing threat of terrorism because they were obsessed with getting rid of Clinton. Now because Obama is has no ethical sexual rumors running wild, they will get rid of him by being obstructionists, who cares if the country goes down the tubes as long as Obama goes with it.
What is my example of this insanity? How about the budget and the the inablity of the right to come to the table with meaningful negotiations? How about the allowing the debt ceiling to come crashing down? How about not approving more infrastructure jobs that USE to be a bipartisan solution to stimulte the economy?
No, shame on Newt Gingrich for being the “father” of scorched earth tactics in congress.
And you need to read some history that is from neither a Palestinian or Israeli point of view. Try to find something value neutral. Also I suggest talking to Palestinian and Israeli people who lived through that experience.
Neither conversation sounds like what you just wrote. What you just wrote sounded very prejudiced and one sided. There are 2 sides to this story. Neither side is being represented well by the extremists in the respective groups.
Ok. Please tell me again, what value neutral ideal, what middle ground can be met with a group of people that wishes to kill another group of people? I admit that its one sided. Because I see what’s going on over there in the fact that Palestinian leaders instill hatred in their people. That Palestinian terrorists kill women and children and are celebrated. I see rockets raining down on Israel after Israel, in good faith abandoned Gaza. I see no attempt by Fatah or HAMAS to accept peace. I saw Palestinians cheering when the Towers came down on 9/11.
I’ve talked to Israelis that LIVE in that situation. I’ve talked to Israelis that have had children killed by Palestinian terrorists while they rode a bus. I’ve talked to Palestinians that have told me to my face that all Israelis need to be driven into the sea and that all Israelis are targets, men, women and children.
You want value neutral? Ok. I know that the early Israelis conducted terrorism against the British. I don’t agree with it. And if Israel had never come into existence…I don’t care. But it did. And it was created by the exact same organization which at that time created a Palestinian state. Israel chose peace. Their neighbors chose war. That war continues to this day. The CURRENT residents of the area…are Israel and those Arabs NOW claiming to be Palestinian. And the Palestinians are the terrorists now. I want the Palestinians to form a country. And if Israeli settlers in those areas don’t leave…they can become Palestinian citizens.
But again…..how does one find middle ground with those that want to kill you as they have admitted?
Oh, and please point me to any history of ANYWHERE that is value neutral.
It is possible to find more neutral history than you are throwing out there. First off, you are looking at what the media wants you to see. I saw those same fools dancing in the streets. I didn’t assume those street fools represented all Palestinians. I don’t think all of OWS represents America either, for example. I also don’t think that crazy preacher who was going to burn the Koran represented Americans. Westboro Baptist is only a handful of people. Yet look at the proportionally large slice of the news they can pick up.
The name Palestine has been around since Roman times. I just looked at a map a while ago that went back to the 19th century….Palestine. It encompassed a pretty big area.
Trying to marginalize the Palestineans who aren’t Jews isn’t going to solve anything.
First off, let me make myself clear. I abhor the violence. I believe Israel has a right to exist. I believe establishing the country in the beginning was bungled so badly it might not ever be resolved. I also believe that the Palestinians had and have a point of view. It doesn’t include right of return because it just doesn’t…any more than I believe in paying slave reparations or giving someone’s home to the an Indian tribe who now claims it.
Marginalizing the Palestinians and pretending that they are just trash will not solve anything. They have huge unemployment and many live in extreme poverty. They don’t all teach their kids to hate Jews and Americans. If I had a solution I would be the richest person in the world. I don’t. What I do know is that it isn’t all one sided and the Palestinian people aren’t imaginary.
Over 40% of the world’s jewish population lives in Israel. They have to do everything within their power to defend themselves. That’s a lot of folks in one little bit of land. I can’t imagine living there or the courage it takes to live there. No, I have never talked to anyone who has lost a child because of terrorism there. I wouldn’t live there if I had kids for that very reason.
I am not sure the situation is resolvable. Too much bungling from the past. Many mistakes were made after WWI and WWII that promise to keep peace on earth, good will towards men simply a concept rather than a reality.
Where did I or Newt “MARGINALIZE” the Palestinians?
I never said that they worthless or powerless. I said that they want to kill Isrealis and that the evidence I have is their overwhelming support for HAMAS, FATAH, and HEZBOLLAH. The press that I see comes FROM THEM. I’m not pretending that they are trash. I’m saying, quite directly, that they are in a war with Israel in which there is no negotiation possible unless the Palestinians lay down THEIR arms first. And I am REPEATING their words:
“The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism.”
“Palestinians” are an invented people. The “occupied” areas was part of Jordan and Egypt. The Arabs that lived there are the same as the surrounding people. Jordan did not want that land back. They considered the locals, ie. the Palestinians, to be troublemakers. Israel offered to give that land BACK to Jordan.
He and I are not calling the PEOPLE imaginary. We are calling the label “Palestinian” imaginary and stating that there is no such thing. The people, themselves, refused to use it until the early 70’s. The surrounding nations use it to separate the “refugees” out from their population so that they aren’t assimilated. Do the killers and those that support them make up a majority of the population? Don’t know. I think that they do since they voted for them to lead the nation.
I don’t understand what you think we’re saying. Are you upset because you think we’re “insulting” the Palestinians? They wouldn’t think that its an insult to say that Palestinians want the country of Israel destroyed. Sometimes that broad brush is used because it applies.
Saying that Palestine is imaginary is marginalizing. You don’t get any more marginalized than being imaginary.
@Cargo
Who did you just quote and what is the source?
The Palestinians are not just an invented people.
I am glad to know that you and Newt are in such agreement. The label ‘Palestinian’ goes back 2 millenium, back to Roman times.
I think you are broad brushing and making extremely prejudicial remarks.
Let’s approach this from another angle….let’s say that you and your bud Newt are in control. How does the Cargo/Newt plan, whatever that is, solve the problem between imaginary Palestine and Israel? How can you two ensure peace in that part of the middle east with the attitude you both have that vilifies one group and exonerates the other group from all culpabiliy which is pretty much what you just said.
Here is the reality now. Going back in time serves no purpose in finding a solution to the conflict in Israel.
Leaders on both sides recognzie a need for a two state solution. On one hand you have the Israel’s handing over the west bank only to be a target for missiles. On the other hand you have settlements being built in areas that are under negotiations to be returned to the Palestinians.
Yassir Arafat was a crook and stole millions from his own people. He turned down the closest agreement to solve the conflict because he was cemented in hate and the fame being the PLO leader had brought him.
If Rabin could shake Afarfat’s hand, we sure as hell should have the wherewithall to continue his legacy of peace. Rabin was murdered by a Jew because he wanted peace for Isreal.
When there is such dire poverty in Palastine, with no hope for a prosperous future, confict will continue to flourish. Here is what I know, both sides need to feel a win AND a loss has been negotiated. Suggesting that an entire people are “imaginary” is not a place to begin meaningful conflict resolution Cargo.
I have first cousins who live in Israel, I’ve been to Israel, it is possible to work towards peace as long as you acknowledge the humanity of each “side”.
Jordan – a country that was founded in 1921.
@Moon-howler
Who did you just quote and what is the source?
In 1977, during an interview with the Dutch newspaper Trouw, PLO Executive Committee member Zuheir Mohsen described the stratagem as this:
“The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism.”
“How does the Cargo/Newt plan, whatever that is, solve the problem between imaginary Palestine and Israel? How can you two ensure peace in that part of the middle east…”
That’s just it. Its not our job to ensure peace in the Middle East and no American plan can do so. This is between Israel and Palestine, and the other countries that hate Israel. That’s it. NOTHING that we do will bring peace. We are not all powerful and if one side, the Palestinians, do not want peace, then the war will continue.
What culpability does the current state of Israel have? Have they sent in terrorists? Does their constitution call for the destruction of Palestine? Do they initiate rocket attacks against civilian areas? Do they use suicide bombers? They are guilty of defending themselves. They are at war.
Again, the Palestinian LABEL is newly invented. Why can’t you accept that fact? Its a historical fact that the Palestinians were refusing to use that name as late as the 70’s. That they had Jordanian citizenship until Jordan stopped administering the West Bank. The point was that there is no “palestinian” people, just arabs that live in the area known as Palestine. Guess what? That would make anyone from that area in Israel…Palestinian. There is no Palestinian tribe. The point is that there is no right of return. Both you and Elena are criticizing me for repeating a HISTORICAL fact. This is not just my opinion.
If they now want to use the term Palestinian… fine. But its a NEW label for an arabic people that are the same as the Lebanese, Syrians, Jordanians. And as Pat stated, those are “new” too. ALL of them could be described as arabs from the Ottoman Empire if you want to keep going back. If they are Palestinian…then so are the Lebanese, Jordanians, and Syrians.
My opinion is that most of Palestine wants to see Israel pushed into the sea and that is also based upon their statements, elections, and actions. In what way is it a prejudicial remark? That would imply that I have no evidence to back up my statement.
Yes, there are settlements in the areas being claimed by Palestine. If they don’t leave, those people can become Palestinian citizens.
Pardon my English, but bull puckey!
@Cargo
re:
I can’t accept that fact because you are wrong. It isn’t a fact. The term Palestine goes back to biblical days. It first appeared in something like 113 C.E. I just looked at a map from the 1800s. On it, the label Palestine. It was the same shape as current Israel. It had some of the same cities even.
You quote one freaking person. One person doesn’t speak for everyone that the rest of the world knows as Palestinians. You and buddy Newt are using weasel words. The arab people who live in the region are called Palestinians because they live in the region of Palestine. Saying the words are imaginary is just insulting and dismissive. That is how your friend meant it. I can tell that from his comments. That attitude doesn’t bring about peace.
For the record, the Ottoman empire conquored that region of Palestine. Then the Brits and locals drove them out. This has never been a very stable area.
You describe nations and regions. I don’t really think you have the information at hand to say whether the Palestineans are the same as the Lebonese, Jordanians, etc. You are saying all Arabs are the same? I think that is an even more sweeping generalizaton that borders on another form of dismissal and lack of knowledge. You don’t have the information on ethnicities and genetics and migration to really make that kind of assumption.
Can you tell the difference in Japanese, Koreans, and Chinese? How about the different ethnicities within China? How do they relate to the region where the people are found?
How about Hispanic people. Are there differences between Mexicans, Bolivians, Salvadorians, Panamanians? Is it all regional or are there genetic differences. Does it matter?
How about illegal immigrants. Many of the Jews coming in to Israel in the late 30s and 40s were illegal immigrants. How do we want to brand them?? Rule of Law!!! Rule of Law!!! Some of the illegals came after the war so we can’t even say they were trying to save their lives. That was just the only way they could get into the region.
Suddenly things aren’t so cut and dry.
I think it is very unfair and prefudicial to says Palestinians (meaning all) want to push Israel in to the sea. I am sure that some Palestinians would like nothing more than to attain peace in the regions. Different people feel differently. I would appreciate hearing the word ‘some’ used more often rather than these blanket statements.
People change. Conditions change. Leadership changes. I didn’t want to be judged by world under the Bush administration. You don’t want to be judged by the world under the Obama administration. Sometimes you just have to suck it up.
If you judge all Palestinians by the extremists, there will never be peace.
@Cargo
Israel has some questionable human rights violations also. In many ways they are so myopic about security that civil rights are violated to Israelis and Palestinians and visitors. Perhaps it has to be. Much depends on their elected leadership. They continue to build settlements in territories not open to them through agreement. As stated above, Many of them or their parents entered the country, illegally. They have assassinated the wrong people. The person probably deserved it but …..still the wrong person.
Do I think all these things are bad? Not necessarily but they are things that might stand in the way of peace and certainly could be areas of criticism by others in the Arab world.
I expect you and I have no idea what its really like to live there. I wouldn’t even want to visit.
When the Palestinians reject Fatah and HAMAS and kick them out of office, either through voting or revolution, and extend their hand in peace…THEN I will believe that they want peace. So, fine. I will use the word “some.”
Some Palestinians want peace.
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/insideisrael/2011/August/Poll-Reveals-4-out-of-5-Palestinians-Support-Hamas-/
http://www.memri.org/palestinianmediastudies (notice the videos on the left)
But they sure are quiet about it.
Hamas also does some pretty decent things for them. There are separate ‘wings’ of Hamas. You are judging through your eyes and right wing eyes at that. Hamas is very good to the people. You are assuming that they elect it to kill Jews. Now, could it be that Hamas is manipulated? Could be. I am not there. Could it be that Hamas is the Palestinian Mafia? Could be. Don’t they just represent the Gaza Strip region of Palestine? If so, then they don’t speak for everyone. They don’t anyway. Does Obama speak for how you feel?
Palestine is a extremely poor region with huge unemployment. They have too many young men sitting around idley with too much time on their hands. Any region that has this will have a high rate of crime. In this case, the crime ends up taking aim at Israel.
I would dig a little deeper before I wrote them off. The bottom line is, no one can go in and kill them all. At some point, someone will get tired of fighting and cleaning up after a fight and they will look for ways to co-exist.
Hungry mouths usually go with the one who treats them the best.
HAMAS’s charter demands the destruction of Israel. They have refused to remove that from their charter. Hezbollah builds mosques, schools, and hospitals. They put bunkers under them. HAMAS fires at Israel from school yards.
FATAH is the other branch of gov’t on the West Bank. They, too have stated that they will NEVER recognize the right of Israel to exist.
HAMAS and FATAH are working towards a unity government but refuse to accept the existence of Israel.
So…how does that negotiation go?
Israel: Hi, we’d like some peace. We’ll even give you land.
Palestinians: Sure, just die first.
*** a miracle happens****
Peace.
Either the Palestinians lay down their arms or one side has to win. If Israel lays down their arms, the Palestinians (including Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, Egypt) will kill them.
http://www.themediaoasis.com/palestinianpeacenow.htm
Great link Cargo, you may want to read it. You may not realize it, but your unbending stance is actually harmful to the future of Israel. Israel cannot survive forever under the present conditions of hostility.
This is what is taught to Palestinians:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/palmatoc1.html
The UN isn’t any better:
http://www.eyeontheun.org/view.asp?l=21&p=182
@cargo,
Let me get this straight…you really believe that every school who teaches Palestinians and the entire United Nations has no maps with Israel on them?
Surely you are kidding me.
Cargo, you should know better than that.
@Elena
In what way is MY stance harmful? I am basically stating that the Palestinians stop shooting at Israel and calling for its destruction. That’s it. The rest is up to the respective countries.
The right of return cannot be negotiated because there is no such thing as allowing only some of the refugees to return but not all. That would swamp Israel. That is Israel’s stance. Furthermore, why reward aggression?
The status of Jerusalem…I don’t care about it as long as there is total access to the holy sight for all religions. That didn’t happen under Jordan. But Israel cannot allow access as a divided city unless Palestinians stop the aggression.
So..we have problems. Right of return and Jerusalem on the Israeli side and the refusal to allow Israel to exist on the Palestinian side.
The settlements? That depends upon the final borders. I agree that some of the security wall looks like a land grab but I also don’t know the reasoning behind certain routes. The settlements in the West Bank….sucks to be them. ON the other hand, I don’t like how the Palestinians have persecuted the Christians in Bethlehem and Nazareth, forcing them out.
So I agree with that site. Great. Now, get the actual governments to agree along with the general population.
Right of Return goes a little further than just returning to Palestine. It also involves those said people who return getting their property back. That isn’t going to happen any more than the Lakota are getting the Black Hills. Interesting you say that activating Right of Return would swamp Israel. Does that mean, gasp, that these people are Palestineans who aren’t imaginary? Maybe they could come here and settle in Nevada. That would save Israel and populate Nevada. Similar climate.
Cargo, your stance is harmful because you are operating politically from misinformation. You think every single Palestinian is a terrorist. I agree that the Palestinian terrorists have to stop firing rockets and shooting at Israel. What are some ways to make that happen? Sitting here in the USA reading Israeli hawk web sites? There need to be incentives for Palestinians to behave themselves. Are they doing better? Yes. There needs to be a strong correlation between decent responsible behavior and freedom and rights.
Speaking of Jerusalem, are you aware that for Centuries, probably during the time of Constantine, Jews werent alllowed to live in Jerusalem. It was only after the Arabs threw out the Christians that Jews were allowed back in to Jerusalem.
The Israel/PaLestine problem has been ongoing and kept the unstable middle east in turmoil. Had it not bee screwed up in the first place, it might have worked out very peaceably. Blame UK and USA. There are at least 100 policy mistakes right off the bat harming both sides. Starting with immigration, Cyrpress, Civil War, Brit/Israeli war, that’s just the beginning.
Cargo, try looking at it from both sides. I am not saying that Palestine gets to take target practice with Israel. I am suggesting that the series of events caused the current problems rather than one group of people being bad and one group being good.
Oops. Just read this:
We insist that Israel recognize its responsibility for causing the refugee problem and make every effort to work to compensate the refugees for the homes and lands that they lost.
Well…that settles that. The Israelis did not cause the refugee problem. The Palestinians did two things. They a) got out of the way of invading armies to make it easier to invade b) assisted in the invasions and wars against Israel. They lost a war of conquest.
This demand looks impossible to solve.
@Cargo, why do you think that?
You are overlooking the fact that many Palestinians left the region before Israel declared statehood, during the Civil War between the Palestinians and the Zionists and the revolution where the Israelis ran the Brits out of town. The Brits had not followed the UN mandate that they had asked for.
The Palestinians left because they didn’t want to be killed. I am not chosing sides. Just stating facts. The refugees weren’t getting out of the way to make it easier. Why do you think that? Other arabic nations weren’t even involved when most of this happened.
What invading armies? Do you mean the Arab War that began in May 1948?
Cargo, I feel sad because you continue to read things that make you hate and blame.
Yes. I am speaking of the Arab war that began in 48. The surrounding nations told the local arabs to vacate so that they would not get killed. The men assisted in the war. That is what I’m talking about. Those refugees.
The right of return is about the refugees from the 1948 war and the 1967 war.
So..lets state this. The Palestinians left due to conflict in the area…one side states that the other caused it.
If it was caused by the Zionists…they will NEVER let them return. If it was caused by the Palestinians and their allies….they don’t have a right to return. I’ve seen in it Palestinian sources that the majority left because they expected the Syrian army to demolish Tel Aviv and the surround area.
Either way…they ain’t coming back.
So…we need a new negotiating point. How about….lets stop shooting at each other….to start.
So..anyway….we’ve discussed this to death. I understand where you are coming from.
And now…back to your regularly scheduled thread on Scarborough and Wallace….remember them? (I actually had to go back up and look at the title.)