Though Christian ministers have often offered invocations before governmental meetings, the federal courts have consistently ruled that the prayers must be non-sectarian. In Dumfries, this led town leaders in 2010 to pass a resolution specifically advising anyone offering the invocation that “Prayers may not be addressed to ‘Jesus,’ ‘Christ,’ or any variation on those names. A prayer is ‘addressed’ to Jesus if it contains the phrase, ‘in Jesus’ name we pray’ or anything similar.”
Now some in Dumfries are having second thoughts, according to Uriah Kiser of PotomacLocal.com. Councilman Jerry Foreman has submitted a new resolution deleting the specific mentions of Jesus and Christ cited above. “By amending this language the resolution stays non-denominational. It doesn’t specifically call one religious leader or one religion out,” Foreman said in Kiser’s piece.
Prince William County also adopted a similar policy, InsideNova.com reported last year, instructing speakers that “invocations should not include references to religious figures such as Jesus Christ, to images such as a crucifix, or to teaching from such sources as the Koran or the Book of Mormon.”
If Prince William County has a policy to not include references to specific religious deities, someone forgot to tell the BOCS about it. I distinctly heard a specific deity this afternoon. On the other hand, I hear that many of the ministers don’t want to be included in a mini invocation that forbids them to focus their worship on the very deity that they revere. I don’t blame them. Obviously Christians pray to Jesus, Jews to God, Muslims to Allah, etc.
So, we have a problem. What is the best solution? It seems to me that rather than invite visiting ministers to come pray but not dare mention their deity, why not have a moment of silence. There is a remarkable idea. Everyone can pray to whomever they want. If they don’t pray, then those at public meetings can make up a grocery list in their heads. No one will be the wiser.
Moments of silence can be very personal and personally rewarding. Perhaps the supervisor sitting 2 seats away gets on your last nerve. Speak to your higher power about giving you patience. It just might work. Moments of silence take the focus off the individual. There is less of a temptation to gawk around the room. Not everyone prays by bowing their head. Not everyone closes their eyes. For those more contentious meetings, have a 2 minutes of silence. Longer prayer, longer grocery list –no one has to know.
Everyone will feel comfortable. Visiting pastors won’t have to compromise themselves, “others” who aren’t part of mainstream religion won’t have to feel that awkward moment that every “other” feels at the start of the BOCS meeting. I think that the PW County is big enough to handle this one. It needs to be adopted at all levels of government and, unlike the school board, it needs to practice its own policy. Adopting a moment of silence just takes the heat off of everyone. Oh, and Dumfries can follow suit too.
Maybe take the Unitarian approach and pray “To Whom It May Concern”.
Snicker. Good one, George!
Might as well, George. I’m with you on this one.
I can tell you, as I have actually, in this blog, that sitting while you are “asked to pray” most often to Jesus, is incredibly uncomfortable. It would be like asking Chrisitians to pray to Allah.
However, the idea that any government entity would invite a pastor et al and instruct them that they are not allowed to mention their diety is utterly absurd! What this tells me is that the government body recongnizes there is a state vs religion quandry.
They solve it by simply having a moment of silence. I’m sorry, but if you are so morally corrupt as a public servant you MUST have your G-d’s name spoken aloud to do the right thing, you are in the wrong line of work.
Does anyone know if there is a policy for our BOCS? I don’t think that the WaPo is necessarily correct with its report.
I would like them to go to moment of silence. it seems fairer to all concerned. I don’t know why it is a news flash that we live in a pluralistic society.
My husband still resents having to say, ” for thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory forever.” He had to say it in public school as a kid. It wasn’t his Lord’s prayer.
Something that simple can be offensive. Moment of silence, do your own thing.
COEXIST!
Or
Here’s the way I have it on a T-shirt.
http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2010/04/15/coexist-in-firearm-manufacturer-logos/
I totally disagree. However, right now I am more worked up by the facists at DOL, who are trying to destroy the family farm by prohibiting family members from working on them under the age of 18.
http://www.dol.gov/opa/media/press/whd/WHD20111250.htm
@Blue
“We the people” has been changed to “We the bureaucrats will tell YOU the people….”
@Cargosquid
Agree. It all sounds so benign, so reasonable , so charitable, so utopian. Do we really want these poor children doing farm work where they might get hurt? I mean after all, we can’t have them working in family owned laundries, in small shops or local resturants either, where families might escape welfare and build a successful future. Inherited and inter-generational wealth will end if Obama is reelected. Maybe not immediately, but that is the road we are already on. Its the same thing, ask any farmer or small business owner.
It is also being reported that the new regulations proposed by Labor Secretary Hilda Solis, would also revoke the government’s approval of safety training and certification taught by independent groups like 4-H and FFA, replacing them instead with a 90-hour federal government training course. Well of cousrse they did!
@Blue
Cass Sustein…… the tyranny is in the regulations. Can’t have the citizens empowered and independent. Wouldn’t be progressive.
You both might want to take the farm discussion to the open thread rather than hi-jacking the thread about prayers before govt. meetings.
This is a topic that is very important to Elena and me.
Sorry about that….
Didn’t mean to.
Mea Culpa.
You are forgiven. @cargo. Talk to your hearts content in the open thread.
Yup, BOCS have a policy…in their Rules of Procedure (link below). Scroll down to Section F, Paragraph 1b where it says they will open with prayer
http://www.pwcgov.org/government/bocs/Pages/BOCS-Rules-of-Procedure.aspx
(b) The Board shall open each meeting regular or special with the Pledge of Allegiance and the reading or recitation of a prayer or with an invocation by a cleric invited for the purpose.
cleric [ˈklɛrɪk]
n
(Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) a member of the clergy
[from Church Latin clēricus priest, clerk]
This needs to be amended. It isn’t 1984, its 2012,and PWC is a much different community.
@Elena
They need to update. Shall we request formally or hope they are reading the blog?
Let’s see, the BOCS goes back to 1984, which is almost 30 years ago and the School Board calls for moment of silence but doesn’t go by its own policy.
Schools go with moment of silence. Who ever thought schools would be on the cutting edge.
Is the problem here that there could be sectarian prayers offerred under this rule or that it permits an invocation by members of our ecumenical community at all?
The ecumenical community seems to be rejecting the idea of leaving out their deity. I can’t blame them at all for that.
I think you would have your answer if we had an Imam coming in for about 2 months. I think the citizens of PWC would howl like stuck pigs.
Sectarian prayers make some people ill at ease, if it is not their faith. It is uninviting and makes people feel like “others'”
@Blue
Moment of silence works best for me. Those who don’t want to say a silent prayer can fret over whether they left the oven on or the dog outside or whether the weekend weather is suitable for the beach.
So basically what we are saying here is that we can no longer invest the BOCS with the spirit as they consider their responsibilities unless we also censor a large part of our ecumenical community. Is that what we want, do we really want to limit the diversity of our community before the BOCS?
I hope your wrong Moon. Actually I think it would be great to hear an Imam pray in the “Name of the God of Abraham, Ishmael, Issac and Jacob.”
I think people need to grow up. Ok you are ill at ease today and maybe I notice and am tomorrow and I will quietly fix it (end it) on my own. If you are not a believer who cares, whats the harm, just sit there. As long as there is diversity in the number of invitations so as to not promote one over another let well enough alone.
@Blue
“Invest the Bocs with the spirit?” Is that some sort of secret code for something?
What people are so weak that they can’t pray silently? If we have people sitting on the BOS who can’t make a decision without public prayer, they need to resign.
Why should the government establish a religion, even if for 2-3 minutes? No, pray at home for guidance. Pray silently. Silent prayer is just as strong as public prayer.
I think people need to develop some sensitivity and realize that not everyone prays to the same God. It is unwelcoming for non Christians, especially, to have to always be an other and pray to someone else’s deity. The solution is a moment of silence where the individual can personalize their own supplications.
I do not invest the BOCS with my religion.
Just out of curiosity, what am I wrong about? How can an opinion be wrong? It’s an opinion.
You might think a praying Imam would be a good thing but I bet a lot of PWC folks might not like it at all. Let’s have a rabbi for a year and see how that flies.
@Moon-howler
That’s how I grew up saying it. Who says the other version is correct?
@George, he can sort of bleat out the ending now but he doesn’t like being forced to do it.
I have pondered for many years why have an Invocation at all? By tradition, if you have the Invocation, there should be a Benediction (using those two words as a “catch-all” since there are way too many religions who have terms for the opening/closing prayer). Every meeting begins with the Pledge and saying “one Nation under God” – in my mind, that Pledge first unites us as Americans, and then reminds us of faith. Sufficient in my mind…and yet the insistence on a prayer which is more historical tradition for opening a government session than other other reason. The moment of silence to me also is just a vestigial thing really serving no purpose as, by any other name, it still pauses for a prayer.
I agree if there is going to be a Benediction, then reflect the diversity of the Distinctive Faith Groups throughout the County regardless of what denomination it is. I view the prayers opening the BOCS Session as very Christian-centric and not reflective of the many religions around. Do not see at all a diversity.
Statistically, only 26% of any population are regular (meaning weekly) attendees in a service. So in following this thread, I can agree with the instance where someone sitting there hears the prayer, and if not open to the expression being giving, would feel at ease. Unfortunately, people may focus more on the person saying the prayer, than the expression and intent of the words spoken.
Moon, you made a comment in #20 above, the Invokers do not leave out the name of their deity and that is appropriate. I was on Staff & Faculty for five years teaching Financial Management at the U.S. Army Chaplain Center & School. Learned a lot about the various denominations, and also there are lots of research and court debates allowing the individual to invoke the name of their deity….well, until a political foot gets in the way such as during Gulf War I, the Military Chaplains were not allowed to wear the Cross/Tablets/Moon insignia. So your view is not off the mark at all 🙂
Still, the question remains…why have it in the first place?
Ray, I have to agree with you about “why do it in the first place.” However, in the spirit of compromise, I am not ready to go ask to do away with tradition completely. I realize some people heavily rely on intervention before meetings. I am just not one of them. IN fact, I would love to see the School Board not bring the scouts in for a dog and pony show every time they meet. Just get on with it.
Truthfully, I think the supervisors would be chicken to suggest doing away with everything. i also think there are constituents who would raise the red flag over it. Its just easier to go to moment of silence. That should appease everyone and not put out elected officials in the hot seat.
@Elena
Clergy is a generic term used to refer the formal religious leadership within some religions. A clergyman, clergywoman, clergyperson, churchman or cleric is a member of the clergy, especially one who is a priest, preacher, pastor, or other religious professional. Depending on the religion, clergy usually take care of the ritual aspects of the religious life, teach or otherwise help in spreading the religion’s doctrine and practices.
In Christianity there is a wide range of formal and informal clergy positions, including deacons, priests, bishops, preachers, pastors, and ministers. The specific names and roles of clergy vary by denomonation. In Shia Islam, religious leaders are usually known as imams or ayatollahs. In Judaism religious teachers are usually known as rabbis.
Actually the word “cleric” ultimately comes from the Greek “κλῆρος” – klēros, “a lot”, “that which is assigned by lot” (allotment) or metaphorically, “inheritance”.
There would be no reason whatsovever that the BOCS couldn’t invite an imam or a rabbi for the purpose of, “reading or recitation of a prayer or with an invocation by a cleric…” If you want to make your point, perhaps suggest they invite your rabbi or the imam from the mosque on Hoadly Road to open the next meeting. If they don’t them maybe, just maybe, you have something to complain about.
@Ray Beverage
I don’t know about the Army Ray, but Navy chaplains have been wearing crosses or the Star of David for more year than I am old–and that is over 3/4 of a century. The Crescent Moon was added when Islam became recognized.
@Moon-howler
“I think you would have your answer if we had an Imam coming in for about 2 months. I think the citizens of PWC would howl like stuck pigs.”
“Imam–howl like stuck pigs” and interesting juxtaposition of terms!
@George S. Harris
“If they don’t, THEN maybe, just maybe…”