Survivor Goddard says this IS the time to talk about gun violence. At what point do we decide we don’t want to get shot up by crazies?
60 Thoughts to “Tech Survivor Colin Goddard responds to the Aurora Theater Massacre”
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Except that he never spells out what those solutions are because he knows a losing battle when he sees one. When pressed on universal background checks in which only a person’s name is checked…with no documentation of the gun…the Brady’s say NO. They want all guns registered, even though that does nothing to stop criminals or crazy people. They want laws similar to NY and NJ, DC, and Chicago. Private sales should be private. Pro 2nd Amendment people HAVE attempted to compromise….coming up with a variety of background check schemes that protect the rights of people. The gun controllers always say no.
The Brady’s and CSGV wants to ban guns. Period.
Background checks are fine. Make them free. Set up an agency. Anyone can check anyone at any time. No FFL needed. Put a name in….get a green light or red light. No details needed.
I’m begging the left to line up behind Bloomberg and press as hard as you can! Go big or go home!
I can see we are back to binary thinking: it can only be Brady or NRA. That is absurd.
I am not sure a weapon should be sold privately without any record of it. Certainly cars are not sold that way nor are houses. There are records of the sale.
I don’t think you are representing Brady accurately. I know nothing of that other group. Let them state what they want. It doesn’t mean that is where we go. All advocacy groups aim for the least restrictive environment for their cause. Smart people will find middle ground.
For instance, the 2A says right to bear arms but it sure doesn’t spell out what arms. Obviously you can’t keep an atomic war head, but no one is going to question a BB gun unless you start shooting someone’s cat. I think people are more up in arms…no pun…over repeat fire guns. Then everyone gets edgy over what is an assault weapon. The first thing might be to agree on the language of guns.
After that, lets take the AK-47 out of the hands of the novice. Any problem with someone who wants to own one having to prove a little more competency than someone who wants a 6 chamber revolver?
Part of the problem is, everyone thinks THEY are sane and responsible.
That’s the first hurdle.
I know several people I really don’t want anywhere near guns.
This incident shows once again how truly vulnerable we all are in these public spaces. People are utterly defenseless. The use of tear gas and/or pepper spray demonstrates the careful preparation that went into this. If guns were unavailable, this very bright killer would have found other options for mass violence.
But these killers are absolute cowards that always manage to find a large group of defenseless people. More than anything else, this massacre points to the need to make it easier for people to fight back. Maybe a case could be made that the 2A right to form militias could provide justification to be armed with ARs in the public square to defend against these incidents.
I can picture MH will jumping up and down and proclaiming that she does not want a bunch of people armed like the wild west. But perhaps the right to self defense should trump the desire to keep public spaces arms free.
Do you want to live with a bunch of yahoos lining the public square to pick off people they determine are crazy? That doesn’t sound like land of the free and home of the brave to me. It sounds like more need for adult discussion.
I believe police departments are our local militias, aren’t they?
Other than that, the remedy sounds psychotic to me.
At some point, Americans are going to get tired of being used as target practice and are going to insist on more restrictive regulations. I would play nice while people were still willing to listen to me.
Mass shootings in Great Britain, Germany, and Canada, which have much more restrictive gun laws than the U.S., give lie to the belief that more restrictions on firearm ownership will prevent these incidents from happening. My solution is to consider applying for a concealed carry permit.
And to answer your question, the police are not part of the militia according to U.S. code. My understanding is that any able-bodied citizen between ages 17 and 45 can be considered part of the unorganized militia if (s)he is not already in the National Guard (i.e. organized militia).
It doesn’t really matter. WE don’t live in colonial times. Modern police are as close as it gets.
Most of them are dedicated law enforcement. There are a few rotten apples but there are everywhere.
But it does matter.
The purposes of the militia and the police are completely different. Apples and oranges.
The police work for the gov’t. That’s not a bad thing…it just is.
The militia is activated by the gov’t, ie. called up. Personally, I feel that we should still use the militia. Organized armed citizens, with knowledge of their rights, confident in their sovereignty, able to control the local environment in accordance to the law, would go a long way to getting rid of a lot of criminal activity, ie… drug markets, gang activity, etc.
The current Virginia Militia under Virginia Code § 44-1 states “The militia of the Commonwealth of Virginia shall consist of all able-bodied citizens of this Commonwealth and all other able-bodied persons resident in this Commonwealth who have declared their intention to become citizens of the United States, who are at least sixteen years of age and, except as hereinafter provided, not more than fifty-five years of age. The militia shall be divided into four classes, the National Guard, which includes the Army National Guard and the Air National Guard, the Virginia State Defense Force, the naval militia, and the unorganized militia.”
Permanent faculty members of the Virginia Military Institute (VMI) are normally offered commissions in the naval or unorganized militia of Virginia. The Superintendent of VMI is normally a Lieutenant General of the unorganized Virginia militia unless he or she is a regular US military officer of higher rank. The corps of cadets also serves as cadet members of the unorganized militia. Staff members of the Virginia Tech Corps of Cadets also may hold officer appointments in the Virginia Militia, unless they hold higher rank as active or retired US military officers.
Wiki
Oh…and said militias would be highly resistant to being used to oppress their fellow citizens.
@Marinm
Naval militia….. really? I want to join! Gotta find it.
Last I knew it was run by a Major. I think they wear modified uniforms.
But I think the State only gives them 1 boat. 😉
The Defense Force has an air wing like the Civil Air Patrol. Pilots bring their own aircraft and state pays for fuel.
@Cargosquid
so why do you feel there is a need for these militias? Perhaps I missed the incident.
Is there a serious need or does the notion just tickle the southern fancy?
@kelly_3406
Aside from what happened in Norway recently, what other mass shootings have happened
in Europe? I would be interested to know, seriously.
@Moon-howler
I listened to the Aurora Chief of Police at 9 last night. What really struck me was the amount of ammo Holmes had purchased. The Chief rattled off a list that was almost unbelievable. I don’t know whether there are any restriction on the amount of ammo any one person can purchase.
Holmes must have planned this for a long time.
Since at least last spring.
Here is a question–Did he see that the movie was coming out, last spring, start thinking about movie trick that just consumed him and took control…or the opposite…did he want to kill and used the movie opening as a backdrop?
Shooting in Great Britain:
http://www.indyposted.com/25464/britain-shocked-by-mass-shooting-rampage/
Shooting at school in Germany:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnenden_school_shooting
Shooting in Toronto:
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/crime/article/1227453–scarborough-shootings-2-killed-19-hurt-in-gunfire-at-block-party
@punchak
The Israelis have the right idea.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4425657/Israeli-soldier-on-the-beach-in-a-bikini-holding-a-gun.html
The Israelis have a very small country that is fairly densely populated. They are surrounded by enemy.
Us, not so much.
@punchak
It really makes you wonder who would have sold that much without alerting the authorities.
Perhaps he bought it in batches.
I know that the FBI gets alerted if the wrong people buy the wrong amount of fertilizer. its amazing what you learn watching the Xfiles.
Cargo, Slow and Marin, I think you both have a lot to add to the conversation but I really need to ask you to turn off the sound bytes and bumper sticker slogans and to enter with serious conversation in mind.
Everyone becoming heavily armed is not a viable solution. Let’s find even one idea everyone can agree upon.
If what I add is only being seen as sound bytes and not my own opinion than I will not participate.
More restrictive gun control is not something everyone can agree upon either.
@Kelly, so let me see if I have this …..Americans must arm themselves or they are f-ed. That’s the only terms of the mighty NRA? Is that what you are saying?
Arm yorselves or die? That is a thin line in the sand that I believe most Americans will find unacceptable. I think, if that is the case, its time to run the NRA out of town and out of the country because that is simply unacceptable.
The binary thinkers of America really are pathetic. Moe is right. The NRA is far more dangerous than Al Qada.
The definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again and hoping for a different result. The U.S. has had very restrictive gun ownership laws in certain cities and it made no difference. Those cities were among the most violent in the country. Europe has very restrictive gun ownership laws, but has had its share of mass shootings (my post with links to shootings in Europe is in moderation) as well.
Perhaps it is time to try something different.
The United States does not have restrictive gun laws compared to other nations. there’s another sound byte.
Look at the poplations of the cities. They were very crime ridden cities. thugs shootings are different that crazy shootings. Most crazies buy their weapons legally. thugs steal them.
There is no way Europe is even close to USA gun killings unless someone is cooking the books.
I was suggesting something different but none of you NRA types seemed to want that.
I got sound bytes and bumper sticker sayings in response.
Its just easier to go with the restrictions crowd. They will talk for us. I have obviously wasted my time. 4 of you convinced me of that.
@Marinm
I believe it was the regulate the can of gasoline remark that convinced me I was wasting my time.
You all obviously don’t care if crazies get weapons. That is been made very clear.
I am guessing that each of you feels if YOU had been in that theater this would not have happened. Yea, right.
There has to be a better way than allowing all the crazies to have guns, kill a bunch of us and then the gunner boys go in and kill all the crazies with their militias.
I don’t want to live that way. Sorry.
We don’t ALLOW the crazies to have guns. We do care if crazies get guns. There are already laws on the books about that. How do you tell the crazies from the sane? What if they’re not crazy, just evil? Our replies are well thought out and based upon principle. NOT bumper stickers or sound bytes. “Reasonable” gun control has become the sound byte because no gun control group will go on record on what they consider reasonable and effective.
If all you want is for us to agree with you then you don’t want a reasonable discussion.
You keep bringing up the NRA. The irony is that the NRA is notorious for NOT aggressively challenging gun control laws. Most of the existing laws were written with the cooperation of the NRA.
As for the ammo….3000 rounds of .223, 3000 rounds of .40, and 300 rounds of 12 gauge.
I know gun bloggers that shoot that much ammo in a week or three. If I shoot the rifle, I’ll go through 200 rounds in just a short while. Which is why I don’t shoot the rifle that much. That’s about 100 bucks.
We don’t feel that if we had been in the theater it would have been stopped. What we feel is that if some had been carrying, there would have been a chance that it would have been stopped. And I’ve had a cop tell me that exact thing. He wished that there had been any number of civilians with guns in there.
@Moon-howler
Missed the restrictive gun laws thing.
Um…depends on where you live. NY, DC, Chicago, New Jersey, California, Massachusetts, all have restrictive gun laws.
Heck, in Germany, you can buy a silencer across the counter and its considered bad manners to NOT have one when plinking.
And look what we got from Germany. That country isn’t the last bastion of civil rights.
If I want you to agree with me? You don’t even know what I think.
I have asked the question that no one wants to answer. How can we cut back on the number of crazies who have access to weapons?
When you say WE, who all are you speaking for? Why are you talking to cops in Colorado? So you have a bunch of civilians with guns firing away. How many other civilians do you think would have been killed just by accident? You assume that armed civilians can hit the broad side of the barn with a broom and know what they are doing. I do not.
I have certainly seen my fair share of big mouth know it alls who like to get liquored up and talk big talk. I learned a long time ago to believe half what they say. I can’t imagine any credible law enforcement officer wanting armed civilians in the middle of that melee. It all depends on who it is and what their disposition and training is.
I haven’t always been a city girl.
You all have been very dismissive our our rights also. For the record, there is a certain amount of give a little, get a little. I hate to hold rights hostage but it can’t be a one way street and yours aren’t more important than ours…by hours I am going to say Chris, Censored, Elena, Pat, George, Moe, Sunny, BS, me—those of us who feel deeply violated after the various laws that have been enacted in Virginia by mostly men. I probably left out a few people on the list….
You seem willing to go around cherry picking whose rights you want to protect and whose you want to violate. I have pretty much kept things protected on 2A rights here. I basically feel like my payment for that was a resounding screw you Moon. Screw you Elena.
I just need to clear the air on that issue.
Oh, and Cargo, I have been involved in the reproductive rights movement for decades. I am pretty gentle here. I have not even shown you who I am in that department.
Maya Angelou: “[when]…someone shows you who they are, believe them.”
And one more thing, if I felt the need to carry a weapon, I would conceal it and do it anyway. I seriously doubt that would alter anyone’s behavior, even if there was no guns signage on the door. You just don’t flash and wave it about. I am sure they don’t want people sneaking sodas in either. I do that also.
So how would you get caught? And what would happen to you if you did get caught? They would tell you to leave. BFD.
Aside from the gun ownership issue, it is interesting to note that TNT proceeded to show “The Dark Knight” this evening. That was the 2008 movie and “The Dark Knight Rises” was the one premiering Friday night in Aurora. Watching the TNT movie, it was interesting to note the correlation of events in that movie as compared to Friday’s, the latter of which was the final part of the trilogy. HLN reports that Friday’s shootings are even more eerily aligned with the Dark Knight Comic which is not like either the book or the movie.
But just for argument’s sake, let’s imagine it happened a little bit differently. A man props open a theater exit so he can slip out and put on his costume as many apparently planned on doing when attending this movie. Let’s assume this man had absolutely no devious motives whatsoever, but someone who was carrying thought that he was moving furtively or in a threatening manner. Let’s even assume that someone had taken his seat in the front row while he was changing and this costumed person tried to move them out of “his seat”. Let’s just say it was a woman with a purse which popped out of her lap and a metal object flew out of her purse and discharged (or not, maybe it was just a metal object that hit the floor and made a loud bang which scared everyone and they started to panic). Having seen what the carrying audience member viewed as suspicious behavior, and then hearing the bang, s/he pulls out his/her concealed weapon and starts shooting at the first person in the costume assuming he is saving the woman and possibly other people in the theater, not realizing that he mis-gauged the whole scenario.
As Mike Meyer’s female character on SNL would say, “discuss amongst yourselves.”
Ah…the blog that never sleeps. Interesting scenario.
I have personalized this movie scenario a little too much because I have a close family member who did exactly what these people did…he went in the middle of the night to see the first showing. He did it in Manassas, Virginia, not in Aurora, Colorado. Location,. Location, Location. He was fairly spooked by the whole thing.
I believe we are speaking of randomness. Huge what ifs.
Anyone else?
I see people here brought up Israel and its guns laws.
Yes, let’s look at Israel, shall we?!
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/israel
For those who wanted to compare other countries, I suggest you read the link to gun control in Israel, if ONLY we had those same requirements here!
Thanks for the scenario watchful. However, I have a better since I too want to play the game of who wants to die by idiots waving around guns.
How about a kid, lets say for arguments sake, he’s a teenager. Someone, oh, lets go with wanna be cop neighborhood watch guy, who thinks he sees someone suspicious. He follows that person, gets himself into an altercation because he CHOSE not to let the real police handle it, and a kid ends up dead. Oh sh%t, I forgot that REALLY DID happen.
Let me tell you, my kids will be trained in self defense, if some strange man follows them and confronts them, wearing a gun, you bet your ass they are gonna believe they are being threatened.
I find it interesting that the victims of these violent mass murders are actually taking the opposite point of view from our “no restrictions” gun advocates here on the blog. Hmmmmm?
Oh Elena, don’t you know…Colin Goddard isn’t an expert just because he has been shot up. In fact, I believe there is almost a suggestion that he is a coward and could have handled himself better (all while getting shot up) Somewhere I read where he should have thrown chairs at Cho.
If only we had Israel’s Airport Security policies here! If only we had Mexico’s Immigration Policy here! If only we had Britain’s “loser pays” legal system here!
@Moon-howler
A) I didn’t bring up reproductive rights. And we’ve gone round and round on that.
B) You were asking how to keep crazies from getting guns. We’ve stated that in Virginia’s case, they’ve reformed the laws. I think it is now easier to adjudicate whether someone is a danger. And it gets put into a background check.
My question is return was….how do we tell who’s crazy? Isn’t that the FIRST step in keeping the guns from crazy people? Then we have to follow procedures to determine lawful actions.
I don’t know what else to tell you.
As for the surviving victims of mass murders, some DO take the opposite view of Goddard. Students for Concealed Carry came about from the VA Tech shooting. Its just that most victims don’t get into political activism. One survivor of VT even posted a letter stating that VT disarms him every time he came on campus. He would have liked to been able to defend himself if Cho had come to his classroom.
So, Goddard is a voice for those that support his point of view, not all survivors. He’s just the loudest one.
Time to yell bull shit. *I* brought up reproductive rights. You will be seeing alot about them here because a lot of your gun boys who are pulling in the votes are also pulling them in on taking MY rights away, and you are joyously voting for them. Again, give a little, get a little. I have been far too egalitarian on this issue. You dont give a rats ass about anyone’s rights but your own sacred cows. Why should I care about yours? I will just pay taxes and let the county hire cops for my protection. That’s how its always been. In fact, our cops tell you absolutely to put your guns away. I guess they frown on cowboys. Just something to think about. Give a little get a little.
You do need to realize that your sacred cow rights are not more important than my sacred cow rights. I don’t want anyone’s religious bull crap part of public policy. I dont even want MY religious bull crap part of public policy. I also don’t want anyone touching reproductive rights. I too, can have a line in the sand and its been drawn.
I disagree that Goddard is the loudest. He is perhaps the most photographed. Most of the people who were shot died. He is unique in that regard.
People do feel differently about this subject, you are right.
How do you tell who is crazy? One way is behavior. Another way is a very extensive background check. That is what you cry foul on I believe. I don’t think that is necessary for buying a simple piece of eqipment (which I know can kill someone deader than a doornail also) However, I would suggest that for buying qualities or or weapons that have the capabilities of killing multiple people or animals in less than a minute.
The restrictions for @a will come from lack of specifics. The 2nd does not state what kinds of arms you will be allowed. As long as you can bear some kind of arms, the amendment is good.
Slow, good defection. Let me remind you, I didn’t bring up Israel as a poster child for a free for all gun toting society!
I brought up Israel … in jest. If you click the link, you will see a young Israeli woman in a bikini with what appears to be an M-16 slung across her back. The image has circulated widely on the web.
My father and many of his friends were LEOs in a variety of federal, state and local agencies. I never remember them talking about guns or carrying them unnecessarily. I think they had a healthy respect for the damage that guns could inflict – unlike the yahoos or cowboys who think they can solve the world’s problems by firing back in crowded areas. Clue bird – most sane folks are as leery or afraid of the cowboys as they fear running into a certified looney. (I have an obsession too – costume jewelry – but I don’t go running around making every conversation a defense of it. I rarely even wear it.)
@Moon-howler
So you brought it up.
You are equating conservatives with 2nd amendment supporters. The two groups have some correlation but do not equate to each other. There are a huge number of libertarian and liberal 2nd amendment, pro-choice supporters. So…what about their rights? I can name multiple pro-choice, pro-gay rights, pro-liberal gun rights supporters off the top of my head.
Since you brought up “your” rights…ie abortion rights….do you want to get into an abstract discussion about whose rights are involved in that argument and whether the right to an abortion is a natural right vs a civil right? We’ve already gone round and round on that to no productive result.
This isn’t about trading one right for another. Each right is supposed to be protected. While the pro-life side has to realize that legalized abortion is not going to go away, the pro-choice side has to realize that there will ALWAYS be a fight to make it as rare as possible because the pro-life sees abortion as killing a child and abortion oppresses the rights of that child. Just because you have to defend your position does not mean that other rights should be persecuted out of revenge. If you feel that the 2nd amendment should be more restricted because you feel that that is the proper course of action, and you think that restrictions will save lives or because the 2nd is outdated, or whatever….so be it. But don’t do that because you’re mad at Cuccinelli and his supporters for trying to make abortion difficult to get.
To relate that to gun rights, the pro gun side will always fight to defend its rights to keep and bear arms. Until recently we did not have a SCOTUS decision to point to. We had to fight in each and every locale. The anti-gun side will always fight to restrict our rights. That fight will never end.
Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom.
How extensive a background check do you mean? Beyond criminal and mental health adjudications? Unless one is a felon or adjudicated to be a danger, the law allows possession of firearms. We already have extensive background checks by the ATF on all that want automatic weapons, silencers, and other categories of weapons.
As I said…let’s get a universal check. No FFL required. You put in identifying information and the response comes back yea or nay. Or…you get a identifier on your ID as good, unless you are a felon or mental health problem….present that and you are good to go.
The gunnys have examined multiple ways to compromise. But when approached, the Bradys, CSVG, and the Violence Policy Center refuse to discuss it. They won’t even state publicly what laws would satisfy them as a final restriction.
cargo said-
“equating conservatives with 2nd amendment supporters”. Define supporter. You mean asolutist? Aboslutely. Normal people who see compromise, most would call themselves moderates.
Cargo, you really don’t understand what I mean by reproductive rights, do you? It isn’t just about abortion. Far from it. Obviously, I am not lining up for my weekly abortion, whether I need it or not. So why would I care? Obviously that ship has sailed.
There aren’t that many liberal (whatever that means in YOUR mind) 2nd amendment pro choice supporters. Now why do I say that? Because your guys are too busy out there supporting taking away all the reproductive rights issues. Those are the same people who are trying to defund Planned Parenthood, stomp out any kind of sex education and insert abstainence only education which is an oxymoron. So erase that huge number concept from your brain. Someone has lied to you. Pro choice reproductive rights supporters arent going to be voting for your gun boys for the reasons I just explained.
The right to an abortion is a natural right? Would that be spontaneous abortion? Just what are you talking about? Of course it is a civil right since it was reaffirmed by a court decision and has been whittled away continually by state laws and court decisions.
Roe vs Wade outlines more restrictive regulations by trimester…what is allowed and what is not. I am surprised how many people haven’t read the abstract of the document.
Many, not all, pro life people see fertilized eggs as babies. I don’t even entertain such absurd discussions. Many are the same people who want to cut out all the preventative programs, including contraception. I scoff at their notions and I reject them. I have no respect for anyone who holds such stupid notions. And while I am at it, have I spoken of my distain for the fools who call themselves pharmacists who refuse to fill prescriptions for birth control pills. they should work for religious hospitals. If they work for drug stores or retain pharmacies and refuse to fill an rx, they should be fired.
Ken Cuccinelli is unfit for office. Have I left any stone uncovered? Just let me know.
I just thought of my second childhood memory of guns. The first was of how loud they were when my father took me target-practicing with him to instill in me that they were different from the toys we played with.
The second memory was of a family we shared a phone line with for a year or so. They had a daughter a couple years older than me and a younger son. One day after the father had lost the latest in a series of jobs and drunk too much, he came home and blew his brains out with the family shotgun in the family’s den. We children gathered our knowledge of the event through snippets we heard from our parents hushed conversations that sometimes didn’t stop in time as we entered the room. The man’s children then transferred to our county school because the mother could no longer pay for tuition to the city’s school and soon they moved away to live with her parents in another part of the state. Their house, which had been the scene of many of our summer pick-up softball games, sat empty until it finally sold about a year later.
Look at any large newspaper and you’ll see the number of women and children killed by an estranged spouse or the report of a child accidentally shot by a playmate or some drug deal gone bad with someone shot. Those are the everyday gun deaths. They simply don’t draw the attention that large scale events do.
Thanks for that stark reminder, Censored.
Those are multiple killings without the splash. They are rarely random.
My memory of guns was not being allowed to shoot the shotgun because it would knock me down. The kick. All of that was abstract. I never did shoot that shot gun. Its gone now. It burned up in the fire as did the rifles at my brothers.
@Censored bybvbl
Did they carry off duty?
Neither do we discuss guns in every conversation. And most people don’t know when they are in contact with gun carriers. So, its hard to be afraid of them.
Its this attitude that prevents discussion: “unlike the yahoos or cowboys who think they can solve the world’s problems by firing back in crowded areas.”
Exaggerations like this just raise tempers. Just because you think that is a bad idea, does not mean that it OK to disparage those that wish to be able to defend themselves.
Hindsight is 20/20. Of course, those that DO discuss the matters are also outliers inside the gun community as are those that discuss other mattesr here. We are all outliers by the very nature that we are on this blog discussing these matters. Those here like Marin and myself, and those who have gun blogs think about these things differently, even more so than the Concealed Carry community as a whole. Because we are thinking about things tactically and the ramifications of such things. We talk about these things elsewhere all the time. That’s why you see development of tactics schools, aiming lasers, night sights, and discussions of “fight or flight.”
So, since this WAS a worst case scenario, with darkness, panic, smoke/gas, and crowds, how many CCW’s do you think would have shot at the guy? I bet your answer is very different than mine. And I bet that yours is a lot higher. This was a lose/lose scenario.
Of course, now that we’ve seen how bad it is when you CAN’T defend yourself…do you think that allowing people a chance to defend themselves would have been worse than 71 dead and wounded?
M-h, the kick is what kept me from firing a gun too except for once when some friends and I were out in the boonies at someone’s camp before hunting season. I fired either a rifle or shotgun – don’t remember which – into a mound of earth the guys used for target practice. I’ve never been tempted to fire one again. That was more than 40 years ago and I haven’t been threatened or murdered since then for lack of carrying one.
@Cargosquid
Some of them were required to carry off duty.
@Moon-howler
I am soooo proud of you. You spoke the way I wish I could have spoken.
My neighbors friends boy blew his brains out, he was only a teenager. My neighbor subsequently emptied his house of all their firearms, not willing to take the chance with his own teenage kids.
I suppose it’s better to miss an “l” than to add an “a” in the wrong place!!
I hate it when I can’t be mad at you Slow! That is effing hilarious! I am impressed, as tired as I am, I “got” it fairly quickly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@Moon-howler
So all those Democrat pro-choice 2nd amendment supporters are a fiction? The pro-choice libertarian absolutists that I read are fictions? Probably 45-50 % of Americans are pro-choice in some way. And most are 2nd amendment supporters. And by supporters, I mean just that. They want the right to own a firearm to be recognized and the right to self-defense left alone. This group may want restrictions on both.
But, again, you brought up the “well my rights are being attacked by conservatives so I’m going to back those that want to restrict theirs.” Paraphrased of course. I was just reminding you of the fact that many of those who you want to inconvenience are also liberal pro-choice. That’s why the NRA will support Democrats. Its a single issue. Do the 2nd amendment supporters have other issues important to them. Yes. Do a majority of 2nd amendment supporters lean conservative or libertarian? Yes.
And when I stated that abortion is not a natural right, I mean that the right to abortion was invented by the Supreme Court through legal ramifications of privacy. If one cannot find a doctor willing to do one, then what? You can’t MAKE them do it. But one always has the right of self-defense. While you can’t make someone sell weapons, an individual can always make some or defend without it.
Where does the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness begin? While you may not see fertilized eggs as babies, as you say, many do. And they feel that abortion is killing. And if they are not babies then, when do they become babies? When does a fetus become a baby? Case law has precedent of murder when a murderer has killed a fetus. All I was saying is that there will always be this struggle.
I never said that pro choice reproductive rights supporters would be voting for “my gun boys” if by that you mean Republicans or conservatives. They fight for their ideals in their way and vote accordingly. They tend to dislike both parties. The Democrat ones vote for Democrats that they can support.
And again, just because you dislike what some conservatives are doing, is that a reason to oppose other civil rights? Fight THEM. I applaud you for doing so.
And your opinion of Cuccinelli is well known. You are going to be very upset when he becomes governor. 👿
Cargo, I am speaking of dedicated die-hards. It is impossible to be dedicated to both with equal zeal, mainly because of the politicians. Sure, there are pro choice people who support 2nd amendment rights–probably half of them do. I would classify myself as a supporter of 2nd amendment…Hell I don’t want to burn it….but it wouldn’t be my first loyalty. I hope that clarifies. The pro choice gunner boys also aren’t first pro choice. That is an add on.
back to the rest of your paragraph. Its late and I can only handle one issue at a time.
Women have been having abortions since women first walked the earth. Somehow women always seem to know how to make that happen, especially if they are desperate enough. As to natural law, most laws are similar. Brown vs Board of Education comes to mind. Does that make it any less real because it isn’t an amendment? Any amendment can be repeal and any court decision can be overtuned. It is not likely but it can happen. I am now thinking of Dred Scott and the 18th/21st amendments. I expect Roe will eventually be overturned but it won’t stay overturned.
Yes, many people believe abortion is killing but you have to talk about several issues before you really know how a person feels. I believe third trimester abortions are killing, but I am pro choice. I also believe that it is morally appropriate to terminate a pregnancy when there is fetal anomoly. Is it killing? Of course. Is washing fertilized ovum that out of a petrie dish down the sink killing? Of course. So what. Is preventing implantation killing? I guess but who cares? Is swatting flies killing? Yes. Is hospice killing? In a way. Is executing a criminal killing? Yes. Is killing on the battle field killing? Yes. Who gets to decide what is good killing and what is bad killing?
I think the question becomes who decides? I think as long as behavior is legal, the individual decides. If it isn’t legal, then the state has a dog in the fight. I think third trimester abortion, the state should have a dog in the fight, at least as far as the boundaries are concerned. Where do we get the moral guidelines? From our religion, our own sense of ethics, our own moral code.
Sometimes society’s guidelines change, with or without the ok of the people. In the case of the mentally handicapped, the Supremes decided they cannot be put to death for crimes. I am not sure why, but the supremes made the decision.
I just dont think the gun boys and the pro choicers will ever find politicians that are on the same side on this one. That is too bad.
Just read up on Colorade governor Hickenlooper.
He and his wife atten Quaker meetings.
Of all things! He has looked so distraught, I worry about him.