American politics has long been characterized  as Red vs. Blue, and everything about the 2012 election speaks to the gulf and the acrimony that irreparably divide  the two parties. But a major new study conducted by the Washington  Post and the Kaiser Family Foundation  seem to delineate how  those divisions are only a part of a larger political story.

A major new  study, conducted by The Washington Post and the Kaiser Family Foundation, examines the  wide crevasse between Republicans and Democrats.  Partisan polarization now presents a potentially insurmountable barrier to governing regardless of who  wins the presidential race  this November.  How do we move forward when sides simply won’t come together?  Is this only part of our imagination?

 

According to the Washington Post:

Polarization is new normal

Partisan polarization once was considered an affliction only of elected officials and political elites. Now it has gone mainstream. Citizens’ ties to their political parties are stronger than ever, and passions on issues are intensely felt.

Fourteen years ago, The Post, along with the Kaiser Family Foundation and Harvard University, asked people to assess the strength of their allegiance to the parties. At that time, 41 percent of Republicans and 45 percent of Democrats said they considered themselves “strong” partisans. In the new Post-Kaiser survey, those numbers have shot up to 65 and 62 percent, respectively.

Over this time period, the gap between Democrats and Republicans has widened, particularly when it comes to attitudes about the federal government. A clear majority of Republicans now score highly on a series of questions about limited government. That was not the case in 1998. Also unlike in 1998, a majority of Democrats in the new survey cluster on the other end of the scale.

One set of answers is particularly revealing: The number of Republicans who feel strongly that the government controls too much of daily life jumped 24 percentage points since the 1998 survey, to 63 percent. The number of Democrats strongly disagreeing with the assertion doubled.

What many of us  who claim to be independent  find astounding is the fact that the Republicans would dare complain about government controls being too burdensome too strong when they themselves are working daily to get government control over some fairly major areas that affect American life.  I expect Deomcrats agree with that accessment.   One such example is the tremendous amount of time spent in state legislatures   taking away reproductive rights.  Forcing an unnecessary medical procedure such as an ultra sound on a woman seeking an abortion seems like government intrustion to me.  Some here in Virginia would like access to medical records if abortion is involved.  I expect those in other states want the same.  Republicans seem to want government involved and in control of the most personal decisions a person can make.

Republicans have redefined the same old fight.  Today they would tell you that they do not care who does some of these things they oppose (pick something) they just don’t want to pay for it.   How strange.  Many are more than willing to pay for the government to round up illegal immigrants and take them through the expensive process of deportation trials and then deport the “offender.”  The cost of deportation is astronomical.  However, it doesn’t seem to matter to those bellowing for it.

In Virginia, legislators use the SOL testing tool to further beat up more on Virginia teachers.  They have mandated that 40% of teacher evaluation is now to be based on SOL results in core areas.  The state already has control of the curriculum.  Now they have wrestled away control of the evaluation process.  There is very little local option left in education other than paying most of the bill, of course.

Meanwhile I keep waiting for a bill to put some teeth in the no texting while driving bill.  Right now it lacks teeth and our Republican led legislature seems to lack the cajones to really come down on those who continue to do this insanely dangerous practice.  Studies have show that drunk drivers are saver than someone texting.

I am crying foul ball and will accuse the Republicans of cherry picking the government “controls” they want to have.  It isn’t that they mind government controls, from all appearances.  It is that they want to determine which ones they are in control of.  The more they win, the closer they will come to assuming this power.

Meanwhile, we will continue to battle over clean water, clean air, clean food, highways,  crumbling infrastructure and whether Big Bird and Cookie Monster live or die.  It all seems rather pointless after a while.  .

Can good government exist when the sides are fairly equal and no one is willing to budge even an inch?

Further reading  about  the Washington Post/Kaiser Family Reseach study

 

 

32 Thoughts to “Is Polarization the new normal?”

  1. Emma

    You seem to want to pin blame exclusively on Republicans, but I read through the article, and the poll also indicates deep divides within the parties themselves on policy and social issues. If I set aside legitimate questions about the validity of this poll, and take it on face value, then it would seem that those within-party divides would be the most vexing for independents and the so-called “undecideds” (undecided in August, really?).

  2. Yea, I did pin blame on Republicans. I guess it started with Republicans accusing the Clintons of killing Vince Foster. I aimed the article at things that grouse me.

    You are right, there are other things but I wrote to my tastes. I generally get rudely even if I try to be “fair and balanced. I have have decided to please myself since in trying to please everyone you please no one.

  3. Elena

    I was visiting my dad, a long time democrat from the North, he worked under the Johnson Adminstration, he was a part of government that led the “war on poverty”. He helped create food stamps and the head start program for children. Here is how he sees it, the Republicans have always been against social security as a government mandate, along with medicare and welfare. The only difference he sees, in today’s climate, is they actually say the crap out loud! He may have said a few other choice descpiptors of republicans.

  4. Emma

    “Can good government exist when the sides are fairly equal and no one is willing to budge even an inch?”

    I guess you answered your own question, then.

    1. Emma, I really don’t much give a crap. It was a discussion item. why is everything you type mean and personalized? Is that a Republican trait or what?

      If you think *I* am unfair and biased, I have a few people I could introduce you to. Those people make me seen Like John Birch society.

  5. Emma

    I wasn’t personalizing or being mean, nor am I a Republican. I just found it ironic that you ask such a question after you pile all the blame on one side.

    1. Yes you were personalizing. It was at me and despite the opinion of some,I am a person.

  6. marinm

    I’m perfectly happy with gridlocked government. Our liberties are more secure when government is ineffective.

  7. middleman

    The elephant in the room has never been more obvious. The mainstream newspapers like to portray the situation as polarized on both sides, but nothing could be further from the truth. The right is openly legislating to suppress the vote, eliminate birth control and women’s choice, repeal environmental controls, quash alternative energy, increase taxes on the middle class without balancing the budget, and on and on. And the left is what, complaining about eliminating NPR? Promoting wind and solar power? Promoting open elections? This is extremism? Seems a little one-sided to me…

    1. Welcome Middleman. I can’t argue with anything you have said. Thanks for your contribution!!!! I hope you will come back.

  8. @middleman
    You sound a little polarizing.

    But, hey…let’s take a look.

    Suppress the vote. Total BS.
    Eliminate birth control. Really? Point to the bill that outlaws birth control. If you want it, buy it.
    Women’s choice. Ok. Well, some people think that abortion is murder. Sue ’em.
    Repeal environmental controls. Yes. Because its not holy writ and we need some common sense involved.
    Quash alternative energy: BS. Its failing on its own, even with gov’t sponsorship. It’s not feasible.
    Increase taxes on middle class w/out balancing the budget. HAHAHAHAHAHA. Really? But Obama is the one trying to do this? Balance the budget. And its HIS policies that are increasing taxes on the middle class. ObamaCare. And his idiot tax on those making 250K, because a small business owner isn’t “middle class.”

    Try that one again after the Democrats present their own ideas to balance the budget and lower taxes and regs on the middle class.

    1. @Cargo, you sound alot polarizing every time you come on the blog. JUST IS. You of all people have no business saying someone else is polarizing.

      Absolutely in some areas there is an attempt to suppress the vote.

      Eliminate birth control? Want me to call on Lafayette to drag out her video of Sideshow Bob trying to outlaw the morning after pill? Want to see some attempted laws that have recently tried to be pushed through the Virginia legislature that defined life as beginning at fertilization? Do you know what that does to chemical birth control? You might want to rethink that one.

      Some people think abortion is murder? Then they should not consider having one. Abortion is a legal procedure.

  9. @Moon-howler
    Of course I do….. I’m an expert on it. I don’t see it as a bad thing. American politics have ALWAYS been polarized on important issues. We just need politicians willing to stand up for principle.

    As I said…when I see a bill outlawing all birth control…then’ll I’ll worry about it. Ain’t gonna happen.

    “Some people think abortion is murder? Then they should not consider having one. Abortion is a legal procedure.”

    Exactly so…so they are trying to get that changed. Ain’t democracy wonderful?

  10. @Cargo

    Nice try. You didn’t say ALL birth control. You said birth control. Outlawing any of it is wrong. How dare someone legislate how a person does or does not reproduce. That is totally unacceptable. Since you will never get pregnant I would suggest you will never have to worry about it.

    I stupidly thought that was an issue settled back in the 60s with Griswold vs Connecticut. I was wrong. There are still busy bodies trying to control others and churches are still trying to dictate what people outside their own flock do. I see no difference in this and the Taliban. If that is offensive, oh well.

    There are many who would believe that outlawing abortion is NOT a part of democracy. In fact, they would call it a theocracy. I would be one of those people. Your church needs to keep its rules off my children and grandchildren. Its pretty much that simple.

  11. I added “all” because I wanted to emphasize that when someone says “outlaw birth control” its read that they are talking about all of it, otherwise, the proper way to say it is “some forms of birth control.” The subject was “birth control” and that would be read as covering all birth control. But I wanted to make sure that you realized what was said.

    Now…that said…

    Since you want to be offensive and equate murdering, torturing thugs that behead women, throw acid in women’s faces, and rape them at will with religious people that are trying to work within a democratic system to save unborn babies….hey..go for it.

    The idea that unborn babies may have a right to life isn’t even a religious value in some cases. Its an ethics question that has not been answered definitively by this country. We have NOT had that discussion. It has been decided in a badly decided law case concerning penumbras of made up rights.

    And the idea that I should have no opinion on it just because I’m a man is ludicrous.

    You may feel outlawing any birth control and abortion is wrong. Others may feel differently.

    Ain’t democracy wonderful?

    1. *I* am offensive? You act as though every member of the Taliban stones women to death. Talk about broad brushing a group to avoid legislation that many folks consider theocracy. I assume you have studied hyberbole? I feel certain that there are some differences in this group who wants to control women and the official Taliban in SomeVillage, Afghanistan. However, both groups are heavily into controlling the ladies.

      As for the discussion of unborn babies, what on earth do you mean we have not had that discussion? Where on earth have you been? It has been discussed and rediscussed for centuries.

      You don’t get to decide what is “badly decided law!” Of all the arrogance. It is the law. Period. Experts haven’t been able to agree on all this. Cargo, if only you had been old enough and they could have called you for your expert opinion. Harry Blackmun could have died a happy man.

      People are welcome to their own ideas. No one is stopping them from having those ideas and no one is forcing them to use contraception or have abortions. They just don’t have that right to make those choices for me.

      One of the neat things about democracy also is that I can have a public opinion but that has absolutely nothing to do with my private opinions. Isn’t that neat? I am not shoving my ideas down anyone’s throat.

      Cargo, if you feel that fertilized ovum have the same rights as sentient women, then I would think you had a serious problem. That is the act Ryan and Akin were trying to enact. 🙄

      I hope I offended people who weren’t outraged by what these toads are trying to do.

  12. middleman

    Welll, the conversation on this thread has gone pretty far beyond polarization and what to do about it-it’s become polarized on the very issue that is designed to distract and divide. We can argue about abortion all day (week? year? lifetime?) and never reach consensus, but it will keep us from bothering the politicians about issues we can affect.

    The point I was making was that polarization isn’t equally divided, it’s driven by the right. I don’t think anyone can make a rational argument that the Republican Party hasn’t been driven further to the right in the past fifteen years. If we look back, we can see that “Obamacare” was actually a idea dreamed up by the Heritage Foundation and used in response to the Clinton attempt at universal single payer health care by the Republicans. Cap and trade was promoted by many Repub’s, including Romney and McCain, as recently as 4 years ago. Reagan raised taxes more than once (Grover Norquist apparently didn’t run the party back then!). McCain was for immigration reform before he was against it. Nixon passed the Clean Air Act for God’s sake! On the Democratic side, Obama’s stimulus was about 60% tax cuts. He has embraced “clean coal” technology (which doesn’t exist now and probably won’t ever), expanded border patrol personnel and stepped up deportations, expanded drone usage, expanded the Afganistan war, kept Guantanamo open, will probably approve the new path of the Keystone Pipeline after the election, etc., etc. Sounds pretty conservative to me…

    So the center (and Democrats) have moved considerably right, yet we still can’t break the polarization. How much further is enough? There are real penalties to the lack of governance we now see. The manufactured “debt limit fight” has permanently scared the heck out of the world and more of the same may lead to the replacement of the dollar as the world currency. The failure to pass a jobs bill is feeding the unemployment rate. It’s pretty predictable- the majority of job losses in the past two years has been government workers that were cut when the stimulus ran out. Those folks add up to about .8 percent of the unemployment rate. They all bought products and spent money that would have helped the recovery. Infrastructure projects also slowed down with the end of the stimulus- more workers that spend money. And borrowed money for these projects is almost free right now.

    So what do we do to stop the rightward slide, start governing again and move the economy forward?

    1. Middleman, I like your question. I don’t know the answer. Electing more progressive leaders would be a place to start have them not gave. What ideas do you have?

      Today I had to debate why Atkins was a dirtbag, a topic I considered totally unworthy. why are we redefining rape, for God’s sake? We still aren’t past making rape victims the bad guys in this country. I guess I feel like I don’t have the energy to solve the answer to your question. I know conservatives are enjoying the hell out of the gridlock.

  13. The point I was making was that polarization isn’t equally divided, it’s driven by the right. I don’t think anyone can make a rational argument that the Republican Party hasn’t been driven further to the right in the past fifteen years.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA….whew…HAHAHAHAHAHA!

    Right……ok, then. The Republicans have been moving left for YEARS. Reagan was a stop gap. And now, when the Republican base finally get organized to yell, “Stop!” its the Republicans that are to blame for polarization. Moving right in the last 15 years? Really? Bush was a progressive. His father was a progressive. So..who’s left? Growth of government is progressive. Reagan grew gov’t too. He was a middle of the road Republican that only seemed rightwing in relation to the Democrats.

    The entire political spectrum of the US has been in a leftward shift for decades.

    Those Republicans that you mention, with their gov’t programs are progressive. But lets look at your Obama stuff.

    The stimulus was a slush fund to supporters, not tax cuts. “Clean Coal” was a scam to trying to get coal companies to comply..now the EPA is penalizing coal. Expanded border patrol and stepped up deportations…great…all the while canceling the enforcement programs with Arizona, giving amnesty by fiat, and sending guns to Mexico. Stepping up deportations..heck, it could ONLY go up after Bush. Expanded drone usage…not conservative. Targeting American citizens without trial…yep. Not conservative. Keeping Gitmo open…had no choice. Will not approve path of Keystone… won’t be elected. If we’re lucky Canada will still route that pipeline this way instead of the West Coast and sell the oil to China. Manufacture debt limit is not manufactured. Spending cannot continue and we need to use every weapon to slow or stop it. The so called jobs bill…ok…where is it? Nothing has been put into writing by Obama but he sure got the job killing ACR passed. The stimulus did not go to construction. Obama stated that himself. Nice try.

    So what do we do to stop the slide, start governing again, and move the economy forward?

    Get Obama out of office, turn the Senate conservative. Get rid of the Obama bureaucrats that love socialism more than entrepreneurship out of office.

    Progressives do not make for a healthy job market. You cannot spend your way out of debt or recession.

  14. @Cargo,

    What are you smoking down in Richmond? Middleman is right. We have moved further and further to the right during the past 3-4 decades.

    Flag ship issues have not always been constant and Democrats and Republicans have switched parties in the south, mainly because of issues dealing with segregation, but it we just look at left vs right, definitely everyone has shifted left.

    Racial issues are now more behind the scenes. They are there but just not as open. Values and religion tend to be dragging everyone right in sort of a reactionary knee jerk motion.

    Defense issues have also moved right. I can’t see one place polarization has shifted left.

    Hopefully Middleman will be back.

  15. middleman

    Cargo, I must say you have an interesting perspective. I’m sure many historians would be surprised to hear that the Bush’s are progressives, but is that a bad thing? It’s no coincidence that the root word of progressive is “progress.” The progressive movement was formed in response to the excesses of the robber barons at the turn of the 20th century, something my family has direct experience in. My grandfather was a european immigrant coal miner in Pennsylvania where the mine, the homes and the store were all owned by H.C. Frick, and the miners were paid in script only good at the company store. So it was real progress when workers began to get free of that system.

    You seem, like a lot of folks, to be worried most about the economy and the debt and deficit. Me too. The problem is that the R’s run on the economy and “govern” on the social issues. They can’t campaign against civil rights for gay/lesbian people, women’s health issues, immigration reform, and collective bargaining rights for teachers/firemen/police because the vast majority of Americans are for those things, according to polls. So they run on “jobs, jobs, jobs” and then pivot to social issues when elected. The last Virginia legislative session is a perfect example.

    It seems like a lot of folks want to create an alternative universe where things will work that never have in the past. If you look back, the only thing that has ever gotten an economy out of a deep recession or depression is government spending. It’s the only thing that can, since by definition the private credit market has dried up and the economy is in contraction. Look at all the American downturns, the Japanese downturn of the 1990’s, european downturns- all the same- stimulus was used to get the wheels moving again. There’s a difference between our short-term and long-term problems- we need to get the economy going and then address the long-term debt problem. (You can find the D’s job bill(s) that were rejected/filibustered by the R’s in the Congressional Record).

    By the way- Paul Ryan is being called brave and a fiscal conservative when nothing could be further from the truth. The Republican budget passed by the House isn’t a budget, it’s a radical social statement. In spite of cutting Medicare (the same cuts to Medicare Advantage that Obama’s budget makes are in there), raising taxes on lower income folks, turning Medicaid into a block-grant program (another way of pushing it off on the states so they get blamed when it collapses) and radically cutting all discretionary spending, it does not balance the budget! That’s right- the deficit remains under ideal assumptions for 20 years, and more likely for 35 years!!

    As I say, the R’s are playing you- they aren’t serious about the budget, but they are serious about social issues.

    1. Standing ovation for Middleman.

      Throw in my remarks about unempowering women and we might just have a motive.

  16. “If you look back, the only thing that has ever gotten an economy out of a deep recession or depression is government spending. It’s the only thing that can, since by definition the private credit market has dried up and the economy is in contraction. Look at all the American downturns, the Japanese downturn of the 1990′s, european downturns- all the same- stimulus was used to get the wheels moving again.”

    Let’s examine your history there.

    WWII got us out of the Depression. Spending as FDR was doing…did not.
    There were other depressions….Calvin Coolidge faced one….fixed it by cutting gov’t spending.
    Reagan….did not do a stimulus. He cut taxes.
    The Japanese downturn is still there. Their economy is stagnant.
    Europe…well, Germany rejected a stimulus. THEIR economy is strongest in Europe.

    Please tell me where the country has moved right in the last few decades, other than the “right” becoming more vocal. Have we reduced abortions? No. Have we strengthened traditional families? No. Traditional marriage? No. Are more people getting married or living together? Are less children being born out of wedlock? Yes. Is the gov’t getting bigger and more intrusive? Yes. Are we spending more on transfer payments? Are regulations becoming more draconian? Is the narrative of success being something to be ashamed of being pushed more or less? Fair share? Please……spare me.

    Politicians by their very nature tend to be progressive. They LIKE governmental power. And progressivism is a socialist political theory that grows government and lessens individual freedoms.

    The progressive movement, from a grassroots perspective WAS good. But now the politicians are using it. And the top down philosophy of the progressive movement is not about empowering the citizen. Progressivism, as practiced today, especially by the current crop of politicians, is based upon socialist ideas. Just as the unions of yesteryear are not the same as the ones today…neither are the liberals.

    Ryan’s program is brave because he was actually willing to try and fix things instead of hiding his head in the sand. Please…point to the Democrat plans that fix our spending problem. Of course you would put his budget plans into a social context. That’s what the Democrats do to everything that they disagree with. As for the Democrat Jobs bill…you’re saying that they could get Obamacare passed but not one jobs bill. Ok, then.

    The spending being done is SUPPOSED to be based upon Keynesian financial theory, but they are doing it wrong. You spend on actual production, not transfer payments. You must increase the GDP with any spending. That’s not happening. The Stimulus as done by this administration has failed.

    The GOP has run on social issues. And won. They also run on economic issues. And I will be the first one to state that the mainstream GOP has failed to live up to its promises. That’s why the Tea Party’s main target is the GOP, not the Democrats. We expect the Democrats to spend, spend, spend. That’s part of their reason for existence. Other people’s money belongs to the gov’t first.

    The private credit has dried up. But all the spending did nothing. There are numerous reasons for a lack of credit. One…the gov’t is basically handing the banks free money and they buy bonds. A free profit. Two, no one has a job. Three, businesses and banks are waiting for the other shoe to drop when and if ACR kicks in. Four, mortgages are now riskier and the rules more complicated.

    No stimulus has helped the credit market. And the spending by the Fed has artificially supported the stock market with easy money. Inflation is here but the gov’t refuses to count it.

    On social issues, apparently its wrong to want a return to a more conservative value system in your eyes. Its called fighting back against the liberalization of our culture. And as the culture moves more leftward, you will see more active attempts to stop it. IF the GOP is so serious about social issues…. so what? Half of the country, at least, supports a more conservative social environment.

    We conservatives are aware of the imperfections of Ryan’s budget. I actually want something stronger. Freeze all spending, and ideally cut all spending to 2008 levels. That still leaves a deficit, but a more manageable one. Please don’t try to state that the Democrats are worried about the deficit or the debt. Not after this spending that started under the Pelosi/Reid budget in 2008 that they held until Obama signed it after taking office. 1.2 Trillion is spending deficits. Continued false claims by Obama that he wants to cut taxes, the deficit and cut the debt. Falsehoods about how ACR is supposed to lower gov’t spending. Cutting 700 billion from Medicare to pay for ACR while denouncing Ryan’s plan.

    But all of this is not what started the conversation. You were blaming the Republicans for “polarization” as if the Democrats/liberals had nothing to do with dividing the country, demanding all or nothing solutions. And I disagreed. And so far, I think that I’ve won that argument. For every example that you give…I can add to my list.

    Polarization has increased because the fight has become more desperate. As the federal gov’t grows in power and intrusiveness, the stakes become greater. As long as the beast gets fed and grows, the polarization will increase. As long as the media refuses to do an honest job of vetting politicians and presenting either an honest picture of the political machinery or an honest admission of whose side that they favor, the polarization will increase. As long as the population demands that the gov’t treat them as children and give them free stuff….it will get worse.

    50% of Americans do not pay taxes. The top 1% pays 33% of the taxes. The top 50% pays 96% of all taxes. We borrow 42% of our budget. 60% of our budget is Medicare/medicaid, Social Security, and other transfer payments. That means ALL of our tax money currently goes to transfer payments. Politicians on both sides buy votes with tax policies. As long as half of America gets a free ride…and politicians play class warfare demonize the so-called rich, it will get worse.

    1. You only won because of volume @ Cargo., No one has the time or the energy to break that diatribe up to even discuss it. I wouldnt even know where to begin. So whatever you said, you won.

    2. I think you have said you want government to fix society. Surely you don’t mean that.

      Please stop including medicare and social security with medicaid. I find that horribly offensive. I have paid into medicare and social security my entire life. No one pays into medicaid. Why would you take people who have worked hard all their lives and act like they are simply burdens on society?

      Take that one to Florida and see how it plays out.

  17. Are less children being born out of wedlock? Yes.

    Should be MORE children…..

  18. middleman

    Cargo- just some quick comments on your “spin:”

    1. “WWII got us out of the depression” That was massive government spending, old buddy!

    2. “The Japanese downturn is still there” Downturn is gone, but their economy is in slow growth mode. Some blame timidity on initial stimulus.

    3. “Germany rejected a stimulus” Partially true, but other eurozone countries didn’t, and they feed off each other.

    4. “Government getting bigger and more intrusive” As a percentage of GNP, it’s not, even with a 100% increase in military spending in the past 10 years (not counting Homeland Security).

    5. “You must increase the GDP with any spending. That’s not happening. The Stimulus as done by this administration has failed.” Actually, the economy is growing at about 2%. Not great, but along with other indicators like housing starts, car sales, drop in unemployment claims, things are looking good. That’s how we deal with deficit- economic growth. That’s how Clinton did it.

    6.”On social issues, apparently its wrong to want a return to a more conservative value system in your eyes.” This is code for denial of civil rights for some, so yes. I think we can all agree that we have to address the fragmentation of the American family, particularly among some socioeconomic groups, but there is no 1950’s picket fence Leave It To Beaver reality to go back to. I lived that reality, and it looks better in hindsight than it actually was.

    7.”Not after this spending that started under the Pelosi/Reid budget in 2008 that they held until Obama signed it after taking office. 1.2 Trillion is spending deficits. Continued false claims by Obama that he wants to cut taxes, the deficit and cut the debt. Falsehoods about how ACR is supposed to lower gov’t spending. Cutting 700 billion from Medicare to pay for ACR while denouncing Ryan’s plan.” Cargo, you’re mindlessly repeating Republican talking points. The 700 billion from Medicare you speak of comes mostly from insurance company subsides in the Medicare Advantage plan. Bush passed the first stimulus in 2008 (with strong republican support). Obama has cut taxes on businesses and individuals a number of times in the past three years. These things are all verifiable.

    8.”50% of Americans do not pay taxes. The top 1% pays 33% of the taxes. The top 50% pays 96% of all taxes. We borrow 42% of our budget. 60% of our budget is Medicare/medicaid, Social Security, and other transfer payments. That means ALL of our tax money currently goes to transfer payments. Politicians on both sides buy votes with tax policies. As long as half of America gets a free ride…and politicians play class warfare demonize the so-called rich, it will get worse.” Man, you’ve really come off the rails here. Some (not 50%) don’t pay income taxes, but they do pay payroll taxes, sales taxes, etc. The top 1% pays 33% of the taxes because they make 40% of the money! The top 50% makes 96% of the money! 60% of the budget is medicare/medicaid/soc. security, and MILITARY SPENDING! Class warfare is the huge transfer of wealth from the middle class to the top 10% in the past twenty years! These are all verifiable facts, old buddy!

    Cargo, I don’t expect you to suddenly see the light and come around.

  19. middleman

    I accidentally hit send too early! I was going to say it’s unlikely we’ll see eye to eye on all this- we’re divided! You don’t see how rightward the Republicans have moved and that’s not surprising- from your point of view. You have a group of “leaders” that tried to shut down the government by not raising the debt limit for spending they already voted for! And these aren’t extremists?

    That’s a rhetorical question, Cargo, because we’ve had our fun- lets agree to disagree. I’m out of time on this one…

  20. Elena

    Welcome Middleman! I am truly enjoying your discussion here 🙂

  21. Let’s see:

    1) But the difference was that the spending was on concrete items. The purchase of war items increased GDP. It wasn’t transfer payments. Pure Keynesian economic theory.

    2) So…they had a stimulus ..and it didn’t work…so they’re supposed to try again harder?

    3) I think that means that you agreed with me that the only successful economy is the one that did not try to spend its way to prosperity.

    4) But I am counting Homeland Security. I was against its formation. And the scope is not only monetarily. It has become more intrusive. That is a sign of gov’t growth.

    5) We’re barely breaking 1% according to the latest stats. And if you figure inflation with food and energy, we’re in a recession. And you’re right. Economic growth solves it. So we need to do everything to make that happen. Our increased gov’t spending does not increase our GDP.

    6) Not trying to return to the 50’s. Just trying to solve some socioeconomic ills that liberal programs don’t seem to be able to fix.

    7) Targeted tax cuts are meaningless. Tax RATE reductions are what’s needed. The 700 billion was double counted. The CBO stated that the cut comes from reimbursements to medical facilities and doctors. Not insurance agencies. Bush was wrong to pass the stimulus in 2008. Another sign that he was progressive. We need simplification in the tax code and reductions across the board.

    8) I was talking about the income taxes. 60% of the budget does NOT include the military. THAT is under Discretionary spending. There is no such thing as a “fair” share in taxes. All citizens should support our services. There are any number of alternative plans to flatten the tax code. Class warfare is the demonization of fellow Americans because you don’t agree with their success. Unless, of course, THEY support YOU. Then they get a free pass.

    Increasing the debt limit is equal to increasing spending. We need to stop the spending and prioritize. We need to CUT.

    Thanks for the discussion, middleman. Hope you come back and see my responses.

  22. Cargo said:

    6) Not trying to return to the 50′s. Just trying to solve some socioeconomic ills that liberal programs don’t seem to be able to fix.

    So lets decide what that statement really means. What liberal programs? What makes them liberal? I hate sweeping generalities.

  23. Bear

    @Moon-howler
    Moon, I know where to begin: Cargo is wrong about everything in my opinion

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