61 Thoughts to “There is no news….Open Thread”

  1. Paul
    December 9, 2009 at 12:52 pm

    “Too much is tied to various test scores to the point they have almost stripped away any love of learning.”

    You know, that line stuck with me. As I said before, I’m still crystalizing my thoughts here. I think this touches on one of those less-than-fully-developed thoughts.

    The computer games seem to me to be offered out of fear. Kinda like, “What if the kids just won’t like the work we give them?”

    Do efforts at getting kids to love learning at elementary ages work? Is there any evidence of that?

    Despite all the games, etc., seems my kid and his friends have the same typical dislike for school as kids back in my day did. But back in my day we were told to do our work simply because we had too. Us kids didn’t hold any cards. The teacher gave us the work, and we either did it or faced the consequences.

    Now it seems we’re so worried about kids not loving school that maybe our schools are afraid not to entertain and appease the kids’ desires.

    Maybe there’s some connection between this and falling work ethnic? For me, school was a good prep for the adult reality of having to do stuff I sometimes don’t want to do. For today’s kids… not sure they’re getting that same value structure.

    To me, there is little doubt that today’s schools aren’t instilling the same knowledge base. We’ve all seen reports on varying studies in the news – only 22 percent of young adults today can look at an unlabeled map and point to the Atlantic Ocean, only 17 percent can accurately describe a right angle, etc (I made up those numbers, but I’ll bet they aren’t too far off). Maybe we should put the computer games away and get back to a more traditional educational model.

  2. Moon-howler
    December 9, 2009 at 12:57 pm

    SOLs are state benchmarks. What would you replace them with? Those are also the tests used for standardization with No Child Left Behind. They are a criterion referenced test. SOL tests to see if the student has learned what has been taught.

    SAT is a different kind of broad based test. It is probably classified as achievement. It used to be classifed as ability but that probably isn’t accurate either. It would not be practical to use that as an assessment for the general student population. It is also aimed at a particular group, that being the group who is close to or has finished 12 years of school .

    SAT scores have been declining slowly for much longer than PWC has been using computers. I do not think there is any correlation between the 2. We don’t have fiscal accountability for most things in education. If we do have it (like smaller class sizes) what is done with it? Nothing. I have seen teachers up begging for smaller class sizes and it all depends on how much money is available.

    I forgot to throw in that libraries all have computers available for student use. For some kids, that is the only computer available to them for research and homework. I would hope that schools would make these resources available after school and utilize extended hours, especially at high school.

    I think it is probably edulink that calls you. I do not know. 10 pm seems like a silly time to call. I would let the school know you were getting calls then. Good students keep track of their own assignments using pencil and paper. What about those that aren’t such good students or those who are absent? The neat thing about school fusion is you can get the notes if you are absent (and if the teacher uses the system as intended.) and you can get worksheets. You can check long range assignments. I am sure there are other applications for homework outreach.

    The instructional applications appear to be fabulous or the ones I have seen have been. Again, that is up to the teacher and teacher training. Some will do a good job, others won’t.

    Black boards are horrible. They create dust, are dirty, have to be erased each class period, and cannot compete with an overhead projector, much less a smartboard.

  3. Moon-howler
    December 9, 2009 at 1:08 pm

    Despite all the games, etc., seems my kid and his friends have the same typical dislike for school as kids back in my day did. But back in my day we were told to do our work simply because we had too. Us kids didn’t hold any cards. The teacher gave us the work, and we either did it or faced the consequences.

    There are not the same consequences. The minute there are consequences parents rush in to defend little Johnny. It is a different age than when you were in school. Each parent generation complains about what the current generation has to know or learn.

    Kids need to know different things nowadays than they did when you were a kid or when I was a kid. Car mechanics need to have different skills–computer skills in fact. College bound kids have to have different skills. No one needs to write in cursive, just to throw out one small example. Spell check probably replaces many spelling rules. Long division? why spend 3-4 school years touching on this drudgery? A $5 calculator can do it all for you. Logarithms? Outdated for the most part. A calculator does what logariths were invented to do.

    Maps? I can find the Atlantic ocean but if you remove those labels I might have a hard time with a few midwestern states. I KNOW I will have a hard time with the western Asian countries, Africa, and probably a couple European countries. It isn’t a skill that needs to be committed to memory though. Life is more complicated and countries are continually changing.

  4. Paul
    December 9, 2009 at 1:42 pm

    “SOLs are state benchmarks. What would you replace them with?”

    I never said we should or shouldn’t replace them with anything. I just said I don’t think they are the best indicators of a school’s performance, because I believe the questions and answers can be memorized pretty easily. And I think I also acknowledged that was a guess on my part.

    ‘SAT is a different kind of broad based test. It is probably classified as achievement.”

    Exactly my point. Wouldn’t this make the SATs a better indicator of whether any given school district is improving, remaining constant or falling back?

    “SAT scores have been declining slowly for much longer than PWC has been using computers. I do not think there is any correlation between the 2.”

    Again, exactly my point. Look at what you wrote in those two paragraphs. You seem to be agreeing with me that there doesn’t seem to be a correlation between computer expenditures and academic achievement.

  5. Paul
    December 9, 2009 at 1:50 pm

    “Kids need to know different things nowadays than they did when you were a kid or when I was a kid. Car mechanics need to have different skills–computer skills in fact. College bound kids have to have different skills. No one needs to write in cursive, just to throw out one small example. Spell check probably replaces many spelling rules. Long division? why spend 3-4 school years touching on this drudgery? A $5 calculator can do it all for you. Logarithms? Outdated for the most part. A calculator does what logariths were invented to do.”

    Not sure I agree with any of this, except maybe the cursive part.

    Car mechanics don’t have to know anything more about computers than how to hook in those diagnostic testers. I can’t fix many things on my own car, but I could teach prospective mechanics where the hook-ups go in about 10 seconds. It doesn’t justify a technical obsession in elementary school.

    As for the rest, are you really advocating kids don’t learn how to spell or perform relatively simple arithmetic, because automated tools are available that can do that for them?

  6. Moon-howler
    December 9, 2009 at 6:33 pm

    What I meant to say is I don’t think there is any correlation between how much is spent on computers and the SAT averages. Sorry for the confusion.

    I am advocating that kids not spend the inordinate amount of time learning to perform complex long division. There is little practical application for it. If you are in the real world, you have tools that will handle complex calculations for you. All kids should learn basic long division, for example. No kid should have to spend the hours doing the crap I had to do as a kid. Same with statistical data I handled in college.

    There is simply no reason to spend the years learning to be proficient at something you don’t really need to know how to do. When it was necessary to have people know how to handle long columns of addition, proficiency was something to strive for. I know of no where where that kind of ledger work is performed by hand now.

    Kids should be exposed to calculators. Kids should be exposed to computers. They will be around them their entire lives. As for the games as a reward system, I can see an argument for that not being the best use of time, unless of course it is a game that teachers core skills.

    There is all sorts of waste in schools. Want to blow a gasket? Go look at the amount of food thrown out daily in a cafeteria. Look at the perfectly good paper in the hall whenyou pick up your kid. Pencils, pens, etc. You could stock a classroom on a daily basis. Textbooks left in the floor waste money because it shortens the life expectancy. Fixing those problems takes a change in school culture.

    I have thought about the SAT being used as an indicator of a schools success. SAT is given mainly to juniors and seniors. How does an SAT average help a middle school or an elementary school? Even if you could link back to those schools, which you can’t, wouldn’t it be too late for change?

    SOL can be one indicator. However, much has to do with neighborhood, demographics of the school, what hoops the school jumps through to get the pass rate up, and other things which I consider to be rather unorthodox. Kids passing a test or scoring well on a portfolio often is NOT a measure of learning that has transpired.

  7. Paul
    December 10, 2009 at 9:19 am

    “What I meant to say is I don’t think there is any correlation between how much is spent on computers and the SAT averages. Sorry for the confusion.”

    No confusion, Moon. I got that message. What I’m trying to say is I agree. Which brings up the question of what benefit we’re getting from all these expenditures on computers in schools.

  8. Paul
    December 10, 2009 at 9:27 am

    “Kids should be exposed to calculators. Kids should be exposed to computers. They will be around them their entire lives.”

    I guess this is the benefit you are suggesting. While computers won’t add to the academic development (I think we agree on that), you’re saying they need to be there for student exposure, since those students will most likely be using computers the rest of their lives.

    I’m not sure I agree. I think it might be fuzzy thinking.

    When you look at specifics, in an analytical manner, I’m not sure you can find actual benefits of computer exposure in our youngest grades to justify those costs.

    In our older grades, maybe you can justify that. But how much exposure do these high school students need? Computers are constantly getting easier to use, as the technology matures.

    Basically, like everything in government expenditures, it ought to be and rarely is subjected to cost-benefit analysis. Is something like $8 million a year in our county alone worth the benefit we’re getting from computers in our schools?

  9. Formerly Anonymous
    December 10, 2009 at 2:38 pm

    Here are some two way polls for hypothetical 2012 races.

    Obama 46 – Huckabee 45
    Obama 47 – Romney 42
    Obama 50 – Palin 44
    Obama 48 – Pawlenty 35

    The Pawlenty numbers should scare Democrats some. Nobody knows who he is, so he is essentially a generic candidate. I don’t think Pawlenty has a chance at the nomination, but if Obama is only pulling 48 against an essentially unknown candidate, that suggests there is a ceiling on Obama’s core support that only gets bumped higher by the negatives of another candidate (ie Palin)

    I’m surprised Huckabee’s numbers are as strong as they are since this poll was after the clemency mess.

    With all that said, I still think Obama will win the 2012 election, but Democrats he’s going to have to run a strong campaign and is going to need a very high percentage of his supporters from 2008 to vote in 2012.

    Nothing new on 2010 yet other than a few more retirements. No surprises, the retirements are in vulnerable seats. I wouldn’t expect to see much movement until after Christmas or whenever the Senate votes on HCR. (Passing HCR in any form will move the polls. Up or down remains to be seen but it’s going to be a big news event that will force people to think about the issue and if they like the final bill or not.)

  10. Paul
    December 10, 2009 at 2:49 pm

    If things are better, I think Obama wins.

    But he has some vulnerabilities, as would any first term president right now. The economy has to be seen as fully out of the recession, and poised to stay there for a bit without trillion dollar deficit spending propping it up. And Afghanistan has to not turn into a money pit. I think Obama can survive not getting health care reform passed, but if it passes, implementation problems/concerns (whether real or imagined) will create additional vulnerabilities.

  11. Formerly Anonymous
    December 11, 2009 at 11:58 am

    Senator Webb has put out his first fundraiser email. Very early in the cycle, since Webb isn’t up for election until 2012. I don’t see this as a sign of weakness though. Webb is probably just testing the waters to see how strong a response he’ll get among strong Democrats. That should give him a handle on if he’s looking at a election like 2006 or 2009. He has to be a little concerned after last November’s election and the amount of money he raises will help show if 2009 was about the candidates or if there has been a swing back to the GOP in Virginia. I’d comment on that, but I’ve still got some people around here who think I’m a GOP operative. (I’ve considered changing my nom de cyber to GOP Operative but I’m not sure everyone would understand the irony.)

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