GRAPEVINE, Texas — The Boy Scouts of America voted Thursday to end its controversial policy banning gay kids and teens from joining one of the nation’s most popular youth organizations, ditching membership guidelines that had roiled the group in recent years.
Over 61 percent of Scouting’s National Council of 1,232 delegates from across the country voted to lift the ban, BSA officials said. The final tally was 757 yes votes, to 475 no (another 168 delegates did not cast a ballot since they were not present at the meeting). The ban on gay leaders was not voted on and will remain in place.
“This resolution today dealt with youth. We have not changed our adult membership standards. They have served us well for the last 100 years. Those were not on the table,” said Tico Perez, BSA national commissioner.
Some parents are happy. Some are furious and have talked about pulling their kids out. Other people say the BSA has not gone far enough and that the ban against gay adult leaders should be lifted. The ban is supposed to be lifted as of January 1, 2014.
Change isn’t easy. The 100 year old organization will suffer growing pains just like anyone else. I would commend them for the efforts they have made so far. While the organization hasn’t included gays and lesbians in its adult leadership, it has opened its doors to all boys straight or gay.
That is a starting place. After all, its about the kids.
NO Johnny … for the last time, you CAN’T sleep with Timmy! Oh wait a minute … oh ok … well Johnny it looks like now you CAN sleep with Timmy. Carry on boys. (I can see an entire universe of jokes coming from this decision)
SA,
You do realize that same sex experimentation is normal and happens all the time, with or without this ban of subsequent lifting of it.
It will be interesting to see what happens with the BSA. I wonder if they will form a BSA (G) and have troops that are all gay, including the leaders. Might dampen the rancor.
Glad to see the Boy Scouts begin to play catch-up with the Girl Scouts. And I agree with Elena.
http://ideas.time.com/2013/05/23/the-girl-scouts-are-better-than-the-boy-scouts/?xid=rss-topstories
Yeah right Elena, normal in your world perhaps, but sex organs’ biological purpose is for reproduction which is normal. Two of the same sex going at it isn’t the biological norm, sorry. Try again. I’m sure that if enough people start repeating that the sky is pink, and raise their children saying the sky is pink, then eventually there will be a generation convinced the sky is pink.
So SA, you only use yours for reproduction? I don’t mean to get personal but that’s quite a statement. Is this for religious reasons?
No one here is advocating that the boy scouts ‘go at it.” What I think the intent is, to not remove boys who are gay, just because they ARE gay.
I don’t think any standards of behavior have been relaxed at all, nor should they be.
40 years ago it wasn’t a problem. Even if people were gay, it was a secret. Now young people are much more open which I think is healthier. Should you be kicked out of scouts for coming out? 60% of the people voting said NO.
SA: You did not understand what Elena was saying to you. First pull your head out of the sand and read it again.
Head’s out, and I read “same sex experimentation is normal”. Next comment please.
I dont know if I would go so far as to say normal. I think I would have to know a little more before I used that word. It wasn’t when I was growing up…at least not past the age of ‘playing doctor’ which I guess was a license to look at every body else’s.
Moon, I was referring to the ‘biological’ purpose, which is an undisputed fact. I wasn’t referring to normal heterosexual encounters that take place for reasons other than reproduction, which is probably 99.99% of the time!
Whewwwwww! ok. Perhaps I misread what you were saying.
I have a friend who is a proud grandpa of a baby girl. His daughter had the baby and there was a donor. the daughter’s spouse is same sex.
In this case, the reproduction was almost as normal as most hetero couples. I didn’t want to ask outright becuase it really isn’t any of my business but I got the distinct impression it was artificial insemination.
This “compromise” solution is ridiculous, and makes the Boy Scouts look even stupider. Apparently it’s okay to be gay, until you turn 18. Presumably you should have cured yourself of the affliction by then. Or prayed it away maybe.
It’s interesting that the Girl Scouts have no analogous institutionalized bigotry against lesbians. Do they love God less? Or maybe women are just less pathologically afraid of homosexuality.
At least one good thing comes out of this. The Catholic Church is considering being less involved with the Boy Scouts, because they’re disturbed at this new “tolerance”. The Catholic Church and the Boy Scouts together seems like a bad idea to me. An unholy union.
Rick, in general I find women to be less homophobic than males. It just isnt was threatening I guess.
The Mormons who do a lot with scouting issued a statement that said nothing had changed for them. People were who they were but the behavior wouldn’t be tolerated.
That is a not a direct quote but paraphrasing.
“Two of the same sex going at it isn’t the biological norm, sorry.”
It has occurred in all or nearly all species of animals since the beginning of life on earth. A lot of those animals that we’ve observed mating through the millenia were same-sex. http://www.salon.com/1999/03/16/cov_15featurea/
It also occurs in insects by the way. The biological “norm” in most species of animal and insect is heterosexuality and some lesser number of members in each species lean towards homosexuality or bisexuality (or asexuality).
GOD AND MOTHER NATURE MAKE THINGS GAY. It’s a testament to human stupidity that it has taken us this long to collectively understand this.
“Rick, in general I find women to be less homophobic than males.”
Yes. The primary reason for this, IMO, is that many men have some tiny bisexual component within them that they don’t acknowledge or express. But they really feel like they’re missing out on some type of special fun. It’s jealousy. That’s my belief and I think it’s extremely weird.
My advice to homophobic males is to try gay sex once, see if you like it. Odds are whether you do or don’t, you’ll be less upset about gayness in America, and more at peace. If you want to confess to God or a priest about it afterwards, go ahead. Nobody will turn into a pillar of salt.
I’m going to stop short of suggesting that we systematically force all male children to engage in gay sex as a prerequisite to high school graduation. Making that joke here in a dry fashion would amuse me but possibly not everyone would see the humor in it. First we take all the guns … then we take prayer out of schools … eventually we force all children to engage in gay sex acts (under UN supervision, presumably).
The issue that I have with all this is the protection of very young boys. Unlike the Girl Scouts, which seem limited in terms of outdoor activities (at least in the National Capital Region), the Boy Scouts engage in numerous camp outs in which the activities and planning are done with only modest oversight by adults. That’s a good thing–the purpose has always been to teach independence.
But the boys in scouting range in age from 10-18. Let’s face it — sex is a major preoccupation for boys older than about 14. And within that population will be a percentage of gays that prefer younger boys. As these boys rise to positions of leadership in the troop, there will be those that may try to prey upon the younger, vulnerable boys in the troop.
I would not view sexual encounters between a 16-, 17- or 18-year-old and a 11-year-old as “experimentation” as Elena so glibly put it. I would view it as predation.
Sex has never really been a topic of discussion in scouting, so this opens up a can of worms. I have no doubt that there are already gay boys within scouting, but because it was not accepted it was much harder for them to act on it and there were consequences for their actions. Because gays are now allowed, do the Boy Scouts now have to add a code of conduct for sexual activities?
The very essence of scouting has been independent planning and execution of activities. This decision will force parents of younger boys to take a more active role in preventing predation, which will therefore inhibit independence. So this decision has implications far beyond who is allowed in the troop.
There is nothing wrong with parents taking a more active roll with younger kids. If that is the end result of all this, then it is an even better decision.
My husband has always laughed about the old Boy Scout Handbook telling boys if they masturbated they would go blind. That’s where the old joke came from about ‘can I just do it until I need glasses’ came from. At least they touched on the subject…no pun intended. He just added that they also talked about VD when he was in scouts, back in the dark ages.
Why don’t the Boy Scouts discuss sex? Everyone else does. It seems like the perfect setting to teach young men about sexual responsibility and how to not be pigs. Perfect opportunity missed for 100 years.
kelly, bottom line whether there are gay people openly involved as Scouts or as Leaders, either way it is incumbent on the Scouts, as with any other organization (schools, Catholic Church) to realize the potential for older boys to take advantage of younger ones and to keep an eye out for sexual predators.
I don’t accept that “allowing (open) gays” in makes molestation/horseplay more likely or more acceptable.
FYI I went to a Christian camp (“Bible Camp”) when i was a young teen. I was alone with another kid for a few minutes in our cabin one day. He took his clothes off under some pretext and then tried to talk me into sexual things. I said no and walked away. Again, this was a Christian Bible camp, late 1970’s. The kid wasn’t waiting for any court order to tell him it was okay to try to make a move on me.
My kid went to boy scout camp with a church group that shall go unnamed. He came back with totally vile language. I had to threaten with lifebouy. i don’t mean damn and hell either.
There we go, promoting homosexuality it seems based on Rick’s comment #18. Tolerating it is one thing, but promoting it is the thing I detest the most, and it seems that society is doing just that. Ok, some people may be hormonally abnormal, but lets not try to force people down the wrong path who would otherwise develop normally by praising the gay lifestyle, or suggesting that it is somehow normal.
Second Alamo, where on earth do you get the notion that the Boy Scouts are promoting homosexuality? Somehow allowing people the same rights as everyone else is not the same as ‘promoting.’
Oy Vey! 🙄
Oh, good grief. I may be conservative on some matters, but come on, Kelly. Isn’t it up to the adults in charge to control kids’ behaviors? So be vigilant, make sure the kids are following the rules, but don’t exclude them for what you think they “might” do because of your own prejudices! If senior Scouts are having sex with the younger boys on camping trips, then the adults in charge are not doing their jobs and should not be entrusted with them. That’s the real issue–adults asleep at the wheel. When my kids were small, I’d see plenty of moms out on the playgrounds gossiping away while their own kids were raising hell, so it starts early. Now all the young parents can’t even walk their babies in a stroller or take their kids to lunch without having their (the parents”) noses buried in their iPhones. Everyone just seem too busy and distracted anymore to supervise effectively.
The Girl Scouts rock. They don’t have this paranoia, and the girls are expected to have a similar level of independence at a senior level. Boy Scouts need to leave the Stone Age at some point.
Standing ovation to Emma! Totally agree!
@Second Alamo Promoting homosexuality? When only about 2 percent of the American population is gay? I’ve been married 30 years. I hardly think that allowing gay people their freedoms is going to start attracting me to other women.
@Rick Bentley
I think it stands to reason that if there are more people welcomed in a troop who are interested in same-sex encounters, it is more likely to happen. That does not mean however that it will NOT happen otherwise.
@Emma
I can clearly see that you have an agenda here. There are plenty of examples of adults not providing adequate supervision or who do not do what they say they will. The problem is that you do not find out about it until after the fact, so this will just force more helicopter parenting. The newspapers are replete with examples of improper sexual encounters with minors, so it is not prejudice to state that the risk is there.
I can tell you that there is a big difference between Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts as well. Carrying out the requirements for the Gold Award does not really compare with Eagle Scout at all. There is a big difference between planning for Mall Day and putting together a backpacking trip to Philmont. The level of independence is completely different.
Oh good grief! I was referring to the #18 comment, not the BSA. The conversation wasn’t focused on the BSA at that point. Wow, it’s like talking to most liberals … focusing on the edges of a point and not the center.
Ok Emma, I stand corrected. By referring to developing normally I of course was referring to children not adults who should by that time have chosen a path. Just substitute ‘children’ for ‘people’ in comment #23, but then I thought that would have been obvious.
HAHAHAHAHAHA. I remember that growing up, back in the day when if you did something wrong your parents made you pay for it. I got thrown out of Kindergarten for a string of profanity so vile they thought I was a 6 year old George Carlin. Mom was waiting on the front porch when I got home, first I had to eat a handful of dirt, then I got the Lifebouy treatment. Then when Dad got home I got the belt (the pants-down variety). Needless to say I quickly modified my vocabulary.
If you did that today you’d find CPS at your door.
I threatened it but didn’t do it. This string of gutter gums involved his grandmother even. LOL
I am sure he doesn’t remember. He was only ten. GRRRRRR He modified his behavior also.
@kelly_3406 As the mother of three Girl Scouts who stayed in the program all the way through high school, I can tell you that there was a great deal of outdoor time, lots of primitive camping, caving, boating, rock climbing and a whole lot of leadership opportunity for them, in addition to the Mall Day you deride (and I know CindyB can back up what I am saying). Two of them also worked summers as camp counselors through most of college.
The last Eagle Scout project I noticed involved a few crudely-nailed-together boards placed on an existing trail to keep hikers out of the mud. I imagine that took years of execution and planning. But I also know there are plenty of hardworking Boy Scouts out there, too, so there is no point in sinking to your level on this topic.
Agenda? Not really. You’re just not going to convince me that keeping boys and leaders in the closet will somehow make things “safer” for your sainted straight boys, many of whom can hold their own when it comes to harassing their female peers. It’s an illusion, and you know it.
I certainly am not saying that straight kids are less likely to harass than gay kids. However, there is no opportunity for straight boy scouts to harass females during scout activities since there are no girls in their troop. There of couse is opportunity for gay boy scouts to harass younger male members of the troop.
Perhaps one answer would be to sub-divide Scouts into two groups based on age: junior troops would be 11-14 and senior troops 15-18. This would separate the younger, vulnerable boys until they are emotionally ready to deal with these complex issues.
I would think that age separation would be a good thing for many reasons. What does a 10 year old have in common with an 18 year old? Not everyone is a leader. Before anyone was put in a leadership position over younger kids, I would expect that young leader tohave to jump through some mighty tight hoops. (having nothing to do with straight or gay actually)
Cato and Moon, we got the “I”m going to wash your mouth out with soap” treatment too. And the belt – although it was avec clothes. My sister was a CPS worker for more than twenty years and she often told my father she’d have investigated him for the belt treatment – usually only half-jokingly.
One of my closest friends in high school and her mother were actively involved in Girl Scouts and they did plenty of hiking and camping. Her mother said that the biggest challenge wasn’t a sudden gullywasher but preventing several girls from sneaking off to any boys’ encampment within a half mile. The chaperones had to be alert!
The belt existed in our house also and it was saved for very serious infractions. My mother’s weapon of choice was the fly swatter. She could also swing a death blow with a yard stick. The problem with the fly swatter wasn’t so much how bad it hurt but where it had been. The dedicated fly swatter and the kid swatter were interchangeable.
This from people who had spent years warning me that flies carried the deadly polio virus….go figure.
I was a girl scout for a while and didn’t care for it. So, I was a girl scout drop out. I think I would have liked the boy scouts better. The best thing about girl scouts was making a large tin can stove using a can opener. I loved cooking in the back yard on that thing. I felt like I was really roughing it.
@Emma
As for your Girl Scouts, I am glad that your daughters had the opportunity to participate in leadership and outdoor activities. To their credit, they chose to do these activities. But the point is that there is nothing in the Girl Scout program that really requires them to accomplish these things in order to achieve the Gold Award.
I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make, or what it has to do with whether gay Boy Scouts or leaders can do their respective jobs effectively without posing an excess risk of sexual assault to younger boys. The Girl Scouts of America organization doesn’t care if members are gay. Girl Scouts don’t “require” certain he-man activities for their highest award. Was there supposed to be a correlation there?
I was a girl scout drop out. What is the highest award you can get?
One of the things that impresses me the most about girl scouts, as an adult, is the goal setting.
I am sorry my granddaughter was a drop out also. Her mother got in a fight with the cookie mom nazi. Maybe there is hope for the 2 little ones. It is an excellent organization.
My point about leadership and outdoor activities in Girl Scouts has nothing to do with gays. I did not mean to go off-topic, but your statement that ‘Girl Scouts rock’ got me thinking about how the program could be improved.
The issue with tbe Gold Award is that it is not a real discriminator in terms of leadership and achievement, as compared to Eagle for boy scouts. It is too easy to get. With women now in the majority on college campuses, universities no longer view women as high priorities for admittance, and so competition has become fierce.
The Gold Award would be more valuable to young, ambitious women if the criteria were more stringent and required a longer-term effort to achieve.
But must the girls always try to emulate the boys? Maybe the girls are just more efficient. This notion that the girls scouts aren’t somehow as ‘good’ as the boy scouts is pure bunk.
I am going to say that both organizations have some real merit. Perhaps they play to different strengths. I would say the girl scouts are more inclusive and certainly aren’t tied as much to machismo or its female counter-part, whatever that is.
The strength of girls scouts in my opinion, is its emphasis and concentration on goal setting for young women.
@Moon-howler
The Gold Award is the highest award in Girl Scouts. The Bronze and Silver Awards precede but are not required in order to earn the Gold Award.
@Moon-howler I dropped out in sixth grade, unfortunately. Girls earn Silver and then Gold awards. Girl Scouting has meant a lot especially to my second daughter, and had a lot to do with her successes today.
Oh, and I did the cookie mom thing one year. Ugh.
Second Alamo, my assertion that homophobes should try gay sex is strictly my own of course. I know of no organized group advocating that. Though maybe I should form one. Maybe I’ll call it SMAGS, Straight Men Advocating Gay Sex.
“I think it stands to reason that if there are more people welcomed in a troop who are interested in same-sex encounters, it is more likely to happen.”
Sure. But here’s the counter-argument – if we have an environment where sexual orientation is openly discussed rather than being a discussion we want to shelter kids from (note that I said sexual orientation – NOT sex acts) it makes it less likely that a predatory kid or adult will talk some younger kid into something that they do not want to do. Kids should have some understanding of sexuality I think. At a minimum they should understand that there are some forms of touching that are wrong. I think we do them a disservice if we tell them that but they don’t understand that men/boys might be the toucher.
And my strongest point of evidence to support my position is the Catholic Church. Look what’s been going on there.
I just assisted a Battlefield HS Girl Scout with her Gold Award project – she’s been working on it since December and the process is anything but easy. She’s had to work with an elementary school, a church and the Haymarket Regional Food Pantry, as well as give food instability sessions at the Gainesville Walmart. Ask the Girl Scout review board – they will tell you a lot more goes into the process than just a single project. A Boy Scout did a memorial at the Freedom Museum at Manassas Airport for his Eagle Project – looks like a wooden box with a pair of boots, gun and helmet mounted on top. Someone might say that looks easy enough to do — but the Eagle award is more than just a project, it’s the process. I’m sure that Scout can tell you a lot about what went into his work — it was about the people he talked to and the reporting out that he had to do as well, as well as years of work leading to the Eagle.
Girl Scouts do many challenging outdoor adventures, but they also travel, stay in hotel rooms, go overseas — there are many situations where there needs to be alert adult supervision. There are men leaders in Girl Scouting also – Men in Green – my first husband was one. He was an Eagle Scout, an Assistant Scoutmaster, a Cub Scout leader and, after his death, a James West fellow.
And there are girls who join Venturing Crews, which are co-ed scouts sponsored by hospitals, firefighters, police and more.
The Gold Award is not just “mall day.”
Emma, you knew this would draw me out. Proud of your family’s involvement in local Girl Scouting as well.
Venturing – great video:
http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Venturing.aspx