Huffingtonpost.com:

Since the 2012 election, Rachel Maddow has argued that conservative conspiracy theories that formerly existed on the fringe of the Republican Party have slowly made its way into mainstream GOP politics.

Previously, Maddow pointed to how politicians adopted narratives conceived and/or pushed out by conservatives including conspiracy theorist Alex Jones or talk radio host Rush Limbaugh. But on her Monday MSNBC show, Maddow tore into the GOP for allowing who she called “kooks” like Donald Trump and Rep. Steve King to tout such fringe views on mainstream television.

Are these people for real? These folks are tin foil hat wearers. When will the GOP shove these people back into the shadows? They are an embarrassment.  What has become of mainstream conservatives?  Why don’t they take their party back?

We only move forward as a country when people compromise on their ideas.

48 Thoughts to “Has GOP fringe become party mainstream?”

  1. El Guapo

    Us vs Them

    My take is that much of this is the age old “us vs them” mentality, them being Hillary and Obama and the Democrats. Anyone who speaks against “them” is going to be supported. Donald Chump and Ted Nugent make outrageous comments that show a degree of idiocy if not serious emotional problems, but because they speak against “them”, those on our side embrace them.

    The easy way to get support is to criticize Obama. Any criticism of Obama no matter how inaccurate or untruthful or hateful is going to receive praise.

  2. Dr. Walter Bishop

    Remember that during the Virginia election this year Corey Stewart sent out campaign material siding with the “Agenda 21” conspiracy freaks. It’s astonishing that what were considered “mainstream” candidates are reaching out to this crowd.

  3. Doc Wal, refresh my memory about agenda 21. It has faded into the fog of my mind.

  4. @El Guapo

    What do you think will correct this problem? How does the GOP recapture its own party? I don’t think Trump or Cruz really are Republicans. They are fringe in my mind.

  5. @Dr. Walter Bishop

    Someone just sent me a copy of the email. Maybe Corey had heart burn or something. That was tin foil hat material. I hope that is the last we will hear of that nuttiness. Of course, you don’t have to look far to see similar absurd postures on local blogs.

    Gemstone vanities in public buildings locally was fairly tin foil hat. HOWL.

    Speaking of nutty ideas, has anyone read that book about Planet Serpo? A friend just recommended it.

  6. Dr. Walter Bishop

    @Moon-howler

    Way back in 1992 the United Nations came up with a plan for global “Sustainable Development” and called it “Agenda 21.” It included a lot of bogus, government-centered stuff just like almost everything else the UN concocts. Over the past 20 or so years a “fringe” conspiracy theory developed that Agenda 21 is actually a UN plot to eliminate private property in the US and to do lots of other things contrary to the US Constitution. According to the conspiracy theorists, the usual suspects such as the Council on Foreign Relations, the Federal Reserve, the Bilderberg Group, Masons, the Rockefellers, President Obama, etc. are working secretly to make Agenda 21 happen. If implemented, much of it would be contrary to the Constitution. The problem is that the conspiracy theorists believe the UN has the power to impose its will on the United States despite all of our legislative and judicial processes. Agenda 21 is now one of the staples in the tin-foil hat brigade’s pantry. Corey Stewart jumped on that bandwagon during the campaign this year.

  7. Ray Beverage

    Agenda 21 is a fun little document….when you look at the original intent, it was a way to bring sustainability to developments within Africa countries. All the infrastructure, fresh water, crops, etc. Like Dr. Bishop says, it got filled with a lot of other junk.

    Many of the principles though got extracted within various USA governments or organizations and renamed “Sustainable Communities” – the Metro Washington Council of Governments has such a document, and each of the participating governments in MWCOG were asked to back it by passing local resolutions. I remember with both the BOCS and the CoM Council when they passed theirs, there was a bit of contention to make sure the principles were adopted, just not mandates like MWCOG tried with their resolution on gun control.

    One other aspect, and pushed by the AARP, is “Livable Communities” which does incorporate the principles, and expand on them in a local way. In Virginia, we have the “Blueprint for Livable Communities”. But the major difference between the approach for Livable Communities vs. Agenda 21, the whack-job stuff is not in there. Although, I do know of several instances down in Charlottesville where, as they move forward with revitilization efforts, the fringe come out saying “Agenda 21”.

  8. Ray Beverage

    “What has become of mainstream conservatives?”

    Good question – and central to it is “What is a conservative?” The definition for conservatism has changed as often you move around the pieces on a chess board! It has gotten a long, long way from when Edmund Burke (considered the Father of Modern Conservatism) defined it way back in the late 1700s.

  9. El Guapo

    @Moon-howler
    I don’t know how to change this. In political campaigns the attack adds have been used successfully since probably the beginning of democracy. It’s easier, and more effective, than devising policies and proposals to address the problems and challenges that face society, and the voters feed off of it.

    There it is: the voters. I think that a reasonably intelligent, honest politician with serious, doable proposals to address the serious problems we have in our nation would never make it out of the primaries. Detroit is our future.

  10. Dr. Walter Bishop

    @Ray Beverage

    Those are good points also. The original intent of Agenda 21 was sustainable development in third world nations, such as many impoverished countries in Africa. Its ideas are probably very relevant to places like that. The treaty was even signed by the first President Bush, but never ratified by the Senate. President Bush is now included among the ranks of the conspirators by the tin-foil hat people. Since 1992, “information-challenged” political activists and candidates have converted it into a UN conspiracy directed at taking away all of the rights of homeowners in places like Prince William County.

  11. Scout

    Good discussion between Ray and Walter re Agenda 21.

    As far as the fringe becoming mainstream within R circles, I have to believe that this would not be possible but for cable television. Mainstream policy wonkism about complicated domestic and foreign issues is just not good entertainment fare. But Trump or Steve King can really get the couch potatos (or is it potatoes – where’s Dan Quayle when I really need him?) all fluffed up. I don’t think such silliness could have ever taken hold of a respected, august political party in a non-cable TV era.

    1. I think you are probably right, Scout. Looking back, the real extremists were always marginalized in the GOP. People like Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford ere very mainstream. I would say the nonsense all started with Ronald Reagan and Jerry Falwell and just went viral over a period of time. Ronald Reagan was mainstream too until he started listening, or pretending to listen, to Jerry Falwell and that ilk.

  12. Wolverine

    Rave on about the Repubs, Rachel and company. 44% POTUS overall approval rating, only 35% approval when the economy is the question asked.

    1. Wolverine, I don’t rave…I howl. Are you telling me the supposed R people shown in this video are mainstream Republicans?

      As for Potus overall approval rating….why are you discussing that? Do you think it would be higher if every move dealing with jobs, including revamping the national infrastructure, weren’t blocked proudly by the Republican House?

  13. Dr. Walter Bishop

    @Wolverine

    To be clear, I am not a Rachel Maddow fan by any stretch of the imagination. However, I do want to know what’s happened to the Republican Party of Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt and Reagan. President Obama’s shortcomings and declining popularity are not signs that the Republican Party is going in the right direction. It means only that the President and the Democrats have problems of their own to resolve.

    1. I think that is somewhat fair, Doc Walt. I think the country is being hurt by the obstructionism going on with the House Republicans. Buy I agree that the GOP is not going in the right direction.

      BTW, I think Reagan is given far too much credit for things. Reagan made people feel good. As far as policy goes, I can’t think of anything outstanding. The collapse of communism would have happened anyway. Before I get labeled, I voted for him. I still feel that way. He was the lesser of the evils to me. Retrospectively, I think I might have been wrong on that.

  14. Starryflights

    There are lots of freaks and weirdos in the Republican Party.

  15. Starryflights

    Speaking of which, Steve King was in Richmond a few days ago speaking at an anti immigration rally. Hardly anybody showed up. I never heard of it. remenber when immigration was such an important issue not too long ago? Ahahahahaha!

    http://www.politico.com/story/2013/08/steve-king-hits-the-road-on-immigration-95458.html

  16. Scout

    Wolve: the current Prez’s approval ratings have nothing to do with it. These guys like Steve King, Trump, Gomert et al. really are loonies and they are not laughed out of Republican circles. They are allowed to walk around as if they were rational, informed, intelligent, capable people. There is something quite wrong with that.

    1. Standing ovation for Scout. Bravo!!

  17. middleman

    Don’t worry about Obama’s approval rating- he can’t run anymore. Hillary’s rating will be much better after she’s elected.

    The GOP doesn’t have a chance at a nationwide office election anymore- they’ve well and truly painted themselves into a corner.

  18. Wolverine

    Oh, come now, people. This administration is starting to flatline on both domestic and foreign policy issues. And Rachel spends air time talking about Donald Trump?!!! No wonder the MSNBC ratings are on the bottom. Are you all so easily distracted by this GOP stuff — or are you just hiding from the downward spiral in your own camp? True to form, you are even resorting to going after Reagan. Fringe this and fringe that and fringe everywhere. That smacks of desperation. Even from you, Scout.

    1. Even after Reagan? what do you mean ‘even?’ Are you one of those people who think Reagan was God’s first cousin? He had good points an bad points like everyone else. What do you feel he did extraordinarily well, that others didn’t do?

      What would YOU like Rachel Maddow to talk about? Trump dumps a lot of money into extremist ideas that pretty much get the GOP off course. I believe that’s noteworthy.

      Why do you care about ratings? That is pack mentality. Is that why you listen to a station or a show? Because everyone else does?

      I think Fox News is living proof of where that gets a person.

  19. Wolverine

    BTW, I have never, ever had either a blog or a personal conversation with any “conservative” about Agenda 21. In fact, after Doc mentioned it in his first post, I had to look it up because I couldn’t even remember what it was. You guys are really looking through the haystack for needles with which to poke the GOP.

    1. Wolverine, I didn’t remember what it was either. The people who are talking about Agenda 21 are Republicans. I don’t know who you mean by ‘you people’ but I know for a fact those discussing it are GOP-ers. I don’t think they want to poke the GOP. I think they want to poke at the idiots who are trying to destroy the party.

  20. Wolverine

    When Rachel does a show in which she provides her considered opinion on what President Obama and Congress should do about all those taxpayer dollars intended as aid for the Egyptian military, let me know. Or maybe how the Prez should handle all those middle fingers from Putin. Or what is going on in the war in Syria. Or how close Iran is thought to be now to getting the bomb, especially with a new government leader. Or what the Fed may actually do now that not even the White House tried to put a good face on the latest jobs reports. Cripes, Rachel, anything but another boring dump on Trump.

    1. She has covered those very topics. Perhaps you might want to tune in. She’s on at 9 pm. midnight, and 4 am.

      Wouldn’t it be nice if the world responded the way we think it should, each and every time. Wouldn’t life be nice?

  21. Wolverine

    —- I worked for Reagan during his entire tenure, including several critical operations in which he had an acute foreign policy interest.. You really want to tell me about him? “God’s first cousin” Cute. Just wait. I’ll get you back for that one!!

    — Trump. He has been registered variously as both a Dem and a Repub since 2001. He wanders all over the place from lib to conservative depending on the issue. And I understand that he has given political donations to just about everybody, including, inter alia, Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, Joe Biden, Charlie Schumer, and Charlie Rangel. Rachel and some of you cats make it sound like Trump has been chair of the RNC. Tickles my “independent” funnybone for sure.

    — Ratings. Not important my eye. People get fired over ratings. Advertisers make choices based in part on ratings. And MSNBC has become a frequent cable cellar dweller. Libs cannot escape that. The only thing I can say is that Rachel appears to do her best to fight back under the handicap of the rest of those apparently very irritating lefties in the MSNBC lineup.

    — FoxNews. My, you do hate that network. Ratings again. I imagine the Fox execs cry all the way to the bank — to steal an old Liberace joke. As far as I can see, there isn’t anybody who forces the rest of you to buy the Fox product. Myself, I wouldn’t know. Never had cable, and threw the whole mind-destroying TV out more than eight years ago.

    Now, as far as this “fringe” business goes, I have to tell Starry that I have yet to find where a single one of those “freak” and “weirdo” Republicans lambasted by Rachel has ever told General Dempsey in a Congressional hearing that Guam might tip over if he put too many US Marines on the island. Nor, to my knowledge, have any of them run for re-election to a House seat (and won by a wide margin) while they were in a hospital for mental treatment and were negotiating a federal plea over $750,000 in campaign funds used illegally for personal purposes (as well as the distaff side failing to report $600,000 in taxable income). I don’t have a TV. Did Rachel cover these as well? Anybody?

    1. Let’s work backwards. Did Rachel cover Jessie Jackson Jr? Yes. You are talking about one bad apple. Other than for his father, I doubt if anyone outside of Illinois knows who he is. There are bad people always. But they are …oh…the fringe. That’s the point. The people Rachel covered are fringe gone mainstream. They have huge GOP followings.

      She also let Anthony Weiner have it with both barrels. Same With the mayor of San Diego. These are not people being canonized. They don’t have huge followings. The nation thinks they are jerks. In fact, Barbara Boxer called on Filner to resign. Nuff said? You aren’t really going to do apples to apples with those 4 fringies who have become GOP.

      As for Trump, its what he is now. He is wearing your standard so until you throw him out, he is yours.

      Yes, I do hate Fox News. I hate them because they spew hate and they disseminate misinformation. They are extremely biased and the news is not neutral.

      News–I am actually appalled that in this day and age you don’t have a TV. I am not advocating watching 24/7 but at least watch the nightly news on network TV. Where do you get your information from? There isn’t much print news left. I think not having a TV isolates you and makes you even more out of touch than just age. (I am in the same approximate age bracket as you so don’t take offense. I am not being an ageist.) There is a great deal of relative information being disseminated daily. I don’t think you do yourself any favors not having a TV. In fact, I can’t think of anything that would make me feel older and more irrelevant than not having a TV. How on earth do you deal with young people?

      I understand that some people like Reagan. Other people dislike him. Some people have mixed feelings. I just don’t think he was exceptional across the board. I think he sent a message that many Americans enjoyed hearing and he gave the appearance of being down to earth.

      I admit to having a girl crush on his son, Ron.

  22. Scout

    Wolve: my point in the context of this thread is that guys like Gomert and King are fools by any objective, absolute standard, without reference to how well the incumbent President (whoever it might be) is doing or not doing. I’m old enough and Republican enough to remember a time when folks like that wouldn’t be allowed in the room. It has nothing to do with Reagan, Madow, or Obama. The people mentioned in the post (and there are easily another couple of dozen equally as bad) are simply not capable of generating a life form reading as far as being able to provide competent governance skills. For us as Rs NOT to laugh them out of the tent is its own kind of craziness. The news here is that there are too many of these types populating the Republican Party and that they are almost accepted as normal.

    1. Scout, I agree. I used to vote Republican much of the time until the laughables starting taking over the party. It didn’t happen over night. I pretty much departed 25 years ago when the Democrats started getting more normal and the religious right part of the party started pulling a little weight. It was touch and go for a while with me. For instance, I adored the former Daddy Bush before he started listening to some of the far right people. Even so, I still hold him in high regard, even though I couldn’t vote for him the second time around. I just couldn’t do it. He was playing to much to the new base.

      Now the R’s have to get the movers and the shriekers off the front row and send them either packing or to the back room. They have got to be marginalized if the GOP is to survive. I mean seriously, where do Cruz, Cuccinelli and Santorum belong (and hundreds of others)? Not in the Republican party I used to respect.

  23. Wolverine

    Well, Moon, TV in this country appears to me to have taken people away from life, not expanded it. They sit endlessly in front of that idiot box (or on a cell phone now — whichever) and “watch” instead of “doing.” I just could no longer abide that kind of imposition in my own life — which was not too hard to do away with because of all those years abroad in countries with little or no TV to speak of. If I have to waste part of my remaining years watching crap in order to connect with young people, I’ll pass; but I haven’t found that to be a problem. As far as knowledge goes, I’m using one of the tools right now, to go along with radio, libraries and other sources. Watching the nightly news? I can do that selectively here and in rapid multiples at any time of day or night. Anyway, the both of us are quite happy to be unshackled from the idiot box. Much more interaction with family, including the grandkids. And many more expanded intellectual pursuits at our own pace. We are doing many things we were unable to do during the working years, especially overseas; and we decided not to let the idiot box get in the way any longer.

    The problem with Jesse Jackson Jr. did not escape notice in the media beyond the Chicago Trib. What irritates me is that you had a Congressman with a quite prominent family connection who was ill with mental problems, absent from his job for a long, long time, and known openly to be plea bargaining with the Feds over a huge heist of campaign funds used to furnish his house and buy expensive baubles(not to mention his wife and the tax question.) Now, what I see here is the labelling of certain Repubs as freaks and weirdos and fools just for their political views and some of their gaffes (which I now call “Bidens”). But where was the call and push among the top Dem leadership for Jackson Jr. to step down and not go for re-election under such circumstances? Needed that Black vote in Cook County too much to make any waves perhaps? Shame.

    Make me laugh some more. Filner is being pressured to resign for doing what Bill Clinton was notorious for doing. Bill = good. Filner = schmuck, even though there are no rape accusations yet and no mention of cigar tubes. Both are schmucks in my book. One of my biggest memory laughs comes from when I worked as a senior manager under Clinton. We all were told by his lib political appointees that we had to take sensitivity training on how to deal with women in the workplace. I am still laughing in recollection.

    Trump is not mine. I don’t think he stands still long enough to belong to anybody. Besides, I am not GOP and have never been a member of any party. Never voted in a party primary either.

    Scout — Let’s you and I get down and dirty. You are trying once again to rip new ones in Repubs whose philosophies do not agree with your own. So, what’s new here, lad?

    1. Scout is probably delighted to be thought of as a lad.

      There is a great deal of difference between Clinton and Filner. Clinton was not notorious for unsolicited attention. Don’t tell me Paula Jones. That was a set up. I really haven’t heard anyone saying what Bill Clinton did was a good thing. However, I also don’t think it was the nation’s business. His problems of infidelity should have been between him and his wife. Filner is a sexual predator.

      Certain Republicans are very fringe and are being treated as mainstream. That is going to cause the GOP a problem.

      How can you never have not voted in a primary? I vote nearly every chance I get. that is my right as an American.

      As for TV, surely you can govern your own behavior so you don’t miss the really neat things in life on TV. TV is only as bad as you allow it to be. Other than radio which is just visionless TV, afraid I don
      t understand where you get your news and world events.

      I saw plenty of Jessie Jackson Jr. He was mentally ill. What more is there to say? Insider folks knew that was the case. Why comment?

      The Illinois papers had something daily about Jackson for the past year or two. How about a little pity for the guy. I felt very badly for Mark Sanford.

  24. Wolverine

    Are you serious, Moon? You don’t understand how I get the news on this little machine? I can type in a world event on the server and read, inter alia, the New York Times, the LA Times, The Japan Times, The Times of London, and the Times of India on the same subject inside of an hour, not to mention doing the historical research to go along with it all. When that shooting took place in Santa Monica, CA, not too long ago ago, I could plug it in and read virtually every local media outlet, big and small, and get video from local TV all over the LA area. The same with the Zimmerman-Martin case in Florida. I read about Africa for obvious reasons. I read the news in African media as well as all the others. I can listen to or read news from France and Francophone countries in French. One of my favorite places in the world is Cumbria in the U.K. I can read the local news, especially the news on nature and historical preservation, from there when I am so inclined. Who the Hell needs Shep or Brian? And, in the opinion of this old geezer, the “neat things in life” are found in life, not on the faux screen. But, to each his own.

    Clinton “was not notorious for unsolicited attention.” My eye. And how do YOU know that Paula Jones was a setup? Clinton looked you in the eye on national television and lied through his teeth about Lewinsky. Jeez. Pizza and cigars and vaginas in the Oval Office anteroom. Discussing Kosovo on the phone with a Congressman while getting extra service from the pizza delivery girl. Haw! Schmuck. He also really screwed up the counterterrorist services. Probably was too preoccupied with other things.

    Fringe. Code word for somebody whose views are very much opposed to one’s own. Try to marginalize the opposition by declaring them fringe and unacceptable. Old trick. Unfortunately for the contemporary practicioners, more and more people are calling them out on that business.

  25. Scout

    The use of the word “philosophy” in the context of these particular guys seems like abuse of the standard meaning of that term, Wolve. These folks aren’t thinkers, doers or leaders, they’re scam artists who don’t have other options in life so they make their living mouthing nonsense that gets a rise out those whose voting decisions have a predominantly hormonal element. If your closing line in your 1721 comment is intended to suggest that I have no use or patience for them and think they do a lot of harm to governance in this country, you’ve got it right. I won’t give them any passes just because they’re from the same Party I identify with more often than not. In fact, I consider the fact that they’re hanging around that Party as giving me more reason than some Dem to be critical of them.

  26. Wolverine

    Yeah, yeah, Scout. I know the bit: “Everybody in this place is crazy except you and me. And sometimes I have my doubts about you.”

  27. Scout

    We’re talking about a well-defined set, Wolve. There still are some excellent Rs in public service. But even their contributions are undermined by the Party’s seeming inability to keep the loopy ones away.

  28. Pat.Herve

    oh Clinton was such a bad man for the Lewinsky nonsense – all the while, the chief stone thrower Gingrich – was having his own affair and got a fair bit of support in the last Presidential primary.

    The right wing is wagging the dog of the Republican party, and they are losing interest and membership because of it. The Dems are on a similar path, and we will soon be a country that does not function – we are already at an impasse on some issues. IF Congress continues on this path of dysfunction, we might have to abolish the whole thing because what we have now is not working. Holding up legislation that both sides want in order to get a pet project approved is not governing – it is holding government hostage.

  29. Pat.Herve

    It is going to be a big laugh for me, when all the Obama is not a citizen voices get behind Ted Cruz (who was born in Canada) – and promote him for President. How could they possibly change their tune so fast – because it suits them this time.

  30. Dr. Walter Bishop

    Like Scout, I’m old enough to remember when people like Trump would not have been allowed in the same room with the grown-ups. We would have offered them a cookie and escorted them to the exit door rather than clear the way to the podium. I’ll grant Wolverine one point I don’t know if he realized that he made. Maddow is as much of a partisan and ideologue on her side as is anyone on Fox. That’s her right, and people who want to listen to her have a right to do so. I don’t begrudge any of that in the slightest. However, Maddow loves to feature people like Trump and portray them as the leaders of the Republican Party. She loves to feature stories about Gov. McDonnell hoping that people will infer that all Republicans take unethical gifts from snake oil salesmen. For a while, I thought she should have changed the name of her show to “The Bob McDonnell Show, hosted by Rachel Maddow.” There are many responsible, ethical, intelligent people in the Republican Party. They just don’t scream so loudly, and they think we have more important issues to consider than continually obsessing about the President’s birth certificate. Maybe Wolverine was right to get rid of his television. It’s the shallowness and sensationalism on both sides that have brought us to the point that we can’t sit down and have a rational, objective discussion of issues at the national level.

    As an aside, I do enjoy intelligent TV shows (there are some) especially when they feature in prominent roles characters about the same age as me. Thus, the name I’m using to post here. Sorry, Wolverine, I am keeping my TV but trying to exercise responsible behavior in viewing habits.

  31. @Moon-howler
    ” I think not having a TV isolates you and makes you even more out of touch than just age.”

    Funny….some of the biggest “low info” voters watch hours and hours of TV. Its not having a TV that keeps you in touch…its “paying attention” to the right things. I barely get ANY news from the TV other than weather. And even then, I check it on the web.

    On vacation, I step away from the web and watch TV at wherever we are. I watch for entertainment and don’t feed my addiction to political news and such. And I learned this:

    The vast majority of Americans have absolutely no clue as to what is going on, based upon what is being presented to them by the TV. If your only source is the various “news” shows, etc…. there is no actual information being presented.

    1. @Cargo, I have seen some of the sources you use, if what you post here is any indication. I am not sure doing the web crawl thing is a bit better.

      Actually I was talking about local news for the most part. I am not talking about the 24 hour cable news. That is a good way to get misinformation.

      There is nothing wrong with entertainment. I think TV helps us all dipstick pop culture. As a person who would probably get an F in pop culture, I think we should all at least know what is trending. Its sort of like the world around us.

  32. NCIS, Castle, Mythbusters, Top Gear, Dr. Who, Copper, Hell on Wheels, and The Walking Dead.

    That’s about it for TV, off the top of my head…..

  33. Pat.Herve

    and fox news had the highest ratings of all the political news channels combined – kinda tells you who has time to watch TV.

    1. The people I know who stay glued to Fox News are like cultists.

  34. Scout

    You don’t have to think that Clinton was a saint to think Steve King is an idiot.

    On the other hand, Moon, Clinton’s predations were fundamentally injurious to the country. I can’t imagine why anyone would think Paula Jones was a “setup”. Clinton lunged at virtually every lure that dropped into his line of sight. He lied glibly about his activities, publicly and under oath. He set his cabinet out to lie for him by lying to them. The man was so driven by his personal impulses that he was willing to risk fundamental governance values to cover his butt when the stories inevitably got out. He had a team of enablers around him who, while perhaps as privately appalled as the rest of us, were more than willing to help with the cover-ups. His wife was one of those, if not first among them.

    1. I believe the House of Representatives did more harm than Clinton did. Many of those good old boys had the same set of morals. I don’t think Clinton’s behavior was admirable. I just don’t think it was unique behavior for elected offices or presidents.

      Paula Jones was paid. Apparently she didn’t mind the attention until she found out she could make some money off of it. She was paid and paid well. Nose jobs R us.

      As for lying, I firmly believe there are some questions that just shouldn’t be asked unless national security is at stake. So, having said that, if people ask, they should expect a lie. I also think that in the case of presidents, all civil suits should be handled after the person is out of office.

      But that’s just me.

  35. Scout

    The issue wasn’t whether the people in the House had better morals. The issue is that a President of the United States, having established the habit of lying to the electorate, could lie under oath in the courts. I think you have a good point, Moon, that civil suits against Presidents should await their departure from the office, but there would have to be some constitutional modification to make that clear. Nonetheless, if a president commits perjury (which, by the way, is a crime) he should be booted out. Think how history might be different if Gore had become President upon Clinton’s departure. Iraq war? Huge deficits? Decline of American hegemony in the post-Cold War World? Perhaps not.

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