From the New York Times:
But if the federal government has moved on, Mr. Bundy — a father of 14 and a registered Republican — has not.
He said he would continue holding a daily news conference; on Saturday, it drew one reporter and one photographer, so Mr. Bundy used the time to officiate at what was in effect a town meeting with supporters, discussing, in a long, loping discourse, the prevalence of abortion, the abuses of welfare and his views on race.
“I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro,” he said. Mr. Bundy recalled driving past a public-housing project in North Las Vegas, “and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids — and there is always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch — they didn’t have nothing to do. They didn’t have nothing for their kids to do. They didn’t have nothing for their young girls to do.
“And because they were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do?” he asked. “They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.”
Maybe some of the politicians who raced to support Bundy and his grass mooching cattle might want to walk back some of their support. Bundy’s supporters are mainly anti-government activists and armed militia folks. Bundy has said he has obeyed the laws of Nevada and does not recognize the authority of the United States of America. Interesting. Bet he would recognize the government if he got his ass in a sling.
It very well be in a sling when the entire country calls for him to pay up. Suggesting that an entire race of people need to go back to slavery and picking cotton isn’t the way to win a lot of friends. No one who grazes their cattle on public land and then refuses to pay the bill should be criticizing any one else.
Cliven Bundy just seems to attact a bad crowd. He is flocked by anarchists and militia. According to the New York Times:
He was honored at a celebratory party on Friday night attended by 1,500 people, who wore “domestic terrorist” name tags, listened to cowboy poetry and ate hamburgers, hot dogs and Bundy beef. “This is the beginning of taking America back,” said Shawna Cox, who had come from Kanab, Utah, to support him.
Mr. Bundy, whose family has grazed cattle here since they homesteaded in the 1870s, owes the government more than $1 million in grazing fees. He stopped paying after the bureau ordered him to restrict the periods when his herd roamed the 600,000-acre Gold Butte area as part of an effort to protect the endangered desert tortoise.
It will be interesting to see if politicians like Rand Paul will continue to support Bundy in light of his inflammatory speech. I find nothing justifiable about him. This scofflaw needs to be brought to justice and his gang of ruffians sent home to stir up trouble elsewhere. The notion that this group ran off the feds is simply not true. They will not win.
The only justification Bundy would have is if he produced a deed for the land his cattle are grazing on. Right now, he is just a moocher. He has no authority to graze his cattle for free.
I continue to regard this guy as the ultimate leftist-socialist entitlement queen. I hope his recently revealed ignorant, neanderthalish views on other issues do not obscure the fact that his fundamental point of disagreement with the federal government is that he expects the government to support his rugged individualist lifestyle. That means that he feels you and I owe him a living out there on the range.
The Fox folks and the opportunistic pols were wrong to support him from the git-go. I’m a little disappointed that these unrelated moronic statements by Bundy give them an escape hatch.
Yup. He wants us to support him. I don’t want to. I don’t like his politics.
14 kids is a lot of kids, btw.
I wonder if he is on the dole for any of them,
We see the real Clive Bundy and his brethren. What a POS you right wingers make heros from.
“ultimate leftist-socialist entitlement queen.” Har, har. Old Scout has now become a troll.
I hope Starryflights noticed the NY Times statement: “Mr. Bundy, whose family has grazed cattle here since they homesteaded in the 1870’s….” Another troll who is full of crap. Suck it up, Starry!
Funny how you city slickers just cannot accept the 1870 grazing law. The feds got the homesteaders they wanted and made money off the thing for over a century to boot. What else could they have done with all that wilderness? Grow Dutch tulips? You are making yourselves look silly. All you’ve got now is the “race” card — per the usual m.o. Spare us your upturned noses. Young Mr. Taylor down at Washington and Lee might find you all rather inconsistent.
You find Bundy’s social commentary on blacks acceptable? What on earth does that have to do with his current behavior? I don’t care what happened in 1870. My people probably had outhouses in 1870 and were under what amounted to martial law post Civil War. They aren’t now.
So everyone who disagrees with you is a troll? How can I be a troll on this blog? I don’t see how you can argue in favor of lawlessness and anarchy. You would be the first person hollering about rule of law in any other circumstance. Obeying the law isn’t really a relative issue.
I want to eat a few words. I think Bundy’s words are politically incorrect. Sensible people in today’s society shouldn’t and don’t talk that way.
However, I don’t think that means that Bundy is necessarily a racist, in that he distains blacks. I think he is country and ignorant but doesn’t bear malice towards blacks or Hispanics.
I wouldn’t take up his cause. He is a political dynamite keg. He is out of another era in a different region than most of us can relate to. He is also wrong.
Ano ther Forrest Gump moment!
I find an Obama supporter trying to take anyone else to task over the “rule of law” to be laughable. And I called Scout and Starry trolls, not you. “ultimate leftist-socialist entitlement queen.” Heck, Scout may have sprained his brain pulling that one out!
The 1870 grazing law and the 1993 change in that law is at the center of this dispute. If you cannot see that, you should stop commenting about the case. On the other hand, I don’t give a crap whether your “people” had outdoor johns and were under martial law in 1870. What does that have to do with the Bundy case?
Bundy, a rough-hewed and rough-spoken rancher from the West makes a poorly worded statement about those in Las Vegas public housing, and the NYTimes immediately broadcasts him as a racist and the waiting statists try to negate the whole grazing case on the basis of that one report. Typical of the libs.
Let me guess that “bad crowd” in the lib lexicon means anyone who doesn’t agree with them. It can’t be the cowboy poetry or the hot dogs or hamburgers or the Bundy beef or the name tags mocking Harry Reid.
You didn’t eat fast enough.
@Moon-howler
I want to congratulate you for writing that he probably isn’t a racist.
My take on his words is that he inarticulately expressed his view that what the gov’t has done to the black population might be seen as worse than slavery.
But the press has jumped on the bandwagon and stated that he wants the “negro” back in chains.
@Cargo, I suppose it depends on one’s definition of “racist.” To my way of thinking, a “racist” has to bear some malice towards people of a particular race. It isn’t just about using awkward speech. There are people who would disagree with me.
Perhaps its my age. I have known quite a few people who I didn’t feel were racist but who really would have lit up the raised eye brows in a room. These were people that you just wouldn’t associate with in polite company around my neck of the woods. Most of them were from the west, didn’t really have any real exposure to black people and who absolutely didn’t dislike them. Its very difficult to explain also. These were almost people of a by-gone era and who would have been very comfortable if I had brought Cliven to dinner.
I think people, especially younger people today, are all to quick to call racism. One of my grandchildren, for example, thinks even noticing a person’s ethnicity or asking about it is “racist.” I want so badly to drag him back in time to see some of the good old boys dragging around Davidson Department Store in Atlanta in full hood and robes. Sheet men. I saw the same thing in a small rural town where my parents moved. A bunch of sheet men out hanging around the court house…making a statement on something. Yea, those dudes were racists, with or without their sheets. There was a lot of malice there. All the time.
@Cargosquid
I also forgot to say…I went back and listened closely to what he was saying. he is inarticulate and chooses his words very carelessly…or at least careless for an east coast girl like me, especially living in Northern Virginia.
I just don’t think he intended to say what a lot of people thought he was saying. They need to listen carefully. Having said that, I think he is dead wrong about the role government should play in our lives. I think he needs to keep his cattle on his own property or graze them where permissible and pay the leasing fees. It isn’t his land.
Rules change. Anyone who expects the rules the remain the same since 1870 really is living in another world.
As for the anarchists and survivalists who are championing his cause–I roll my eyes.
Bundy is an ignorant old man who also represents a lot of people in his part of the country. He clings to the old ways out of stubbornness.
People who cling to the post usually get run over by the past. He will not win in the end. right now he is a hero to a certain type of person. He might stay one. Sort of his last stand.
@Wolve
You shouldn’t be calling anyone a troll. That was sort of my point. Starry and Scout are both long time users of this blog, whether you agree with them or not. Name-calling really just means you can’t win an argument with them.
I tend to think that people who ride around saying they fail to recognize the authority of the US government as a “bad crowd.” They represent a lawlessness to me that I consider “bad crowd.”
Laugh all you want. Do it to yourself. I am going to ask you to be more courteous to the people here on the blog.
I have never understood the concept of “trolldom” in a blog world. It seems to be applied to people who have a different point of view than that of the prevailing current of commentators on a particular site. My views are what they are, I articulate them as clearly as I can in the time I can allot. Some folks agree with them, probably quite a few more disagree (given that I am a bit contrarian, I accept that my thoughts are often out of synch with the tides of any given site).
Even prior to Bundy’s cotton-pickin’ implosion, I found his story to be very much a story of a type that appears to want and feel entitled to government hand-outs. Hence my puzzlement that he would so meteorically become the darling of self-labeled “conservative” or right wing elements.
If Wolverine wants to debate federal grazing policy, I’m all for it (although it’s not an issue high on my interest list). But from what I can figure out from what’s generally available on Bundy, he has had his day in court and came up short. Now move on. Bundy can take his case to his representatives in Congress and advocate for a different regime. But, conceptually, I don’t see any conservative (in any respectable sense) principle that would validate his actions or the adulation that was flowing his way before he decided to share with us his enlightened views about the troubles facing African Americans in the United States today. When you parce even those remarks, he seems to be attacking government subsidies. Irony abounds.
What Bundy is doing is showing that he is a low information voter. Really. He is going on the typical stereotype, with no facts to back it up. There also has been no proof that his family has been farming/ranching the land in dispute since 1877 – his parents bought he ranch in 1959 – that is when his family started using these particular federal lands.
Maybe BLM is in the wrong – but Bundy does not recognize the Feds at all – and that is probably the crux of the problem.
@Wolve
I also find it laughable. I find it laughable at how much a hypocrite someone like Hannity, Rush and others are. They shout out Rule of Law all the time, except when it is something that they can get ratings on.
I adopted a “wait and see” attitude with Bundy, and I am glad I did. In my many years of involvement with issue-advocacy groups (as opposed to an established political party), I learned a couple of things. First, be careful about who you rally around, and know all of the facts before you take up their cause. Second, if someone holds an extreme (fringe) position on one issue, there’s a good chance they’ll hold an extreme (fringe) position on another issue. Third, these other issues that they hold extreme (fringe) positions on, just may be positions with which you disagree, some of which may be anathema to you. Fourth, if you do align yourself with this person on the issue with which you do agree, be prepared to be lumped in with them on all the issues with which you disagree, and be prepared to have to spend a bunch of time explaining this association. This is why I didn’t jump on the Bundy Rodeo Show. I had a feeling that once this onion began to be peeled, it would get pretty pungent.
You have made some excellent points, Steve. Good words for the wise.
It’s also ok to agree with people in part. Food for thought doesn’t have to become a full course meal.
One of my grandchildren, for example, thinks even noticing a person’s ethnicity or asking about it is “racist.”
@Moon-howler
Heh…..and I’ve been called racist BECAUSE I tend to ignore race. BECAUSE I believe that if you don’t want racism…the only thing to do is ignore race.
Pretty hard to do if you are trying to establish identity. You will find what I say is correct if you continue on your current career path.
How about I give you my grandchild? He would fit right in with your idea.
Scout, I am trying to figure out how “leftist-socialist entitlement queen” can be used to describe Bundy. Further, it seems to me the “leftist-socialist” is an oxymoron.
I think being “leftists” believe involves a concern for those in society who are perceived as disadvantaged relative to others and an assumption that there are unjustified inequalities that need to be reduced or abolished. This is the very thing Bundy says has caused American blacks to be in the position he perceives them to be in; i.e., they believe they are “entitled” to welfare and all that goes with that.
On the other hand, being a “socialist” involves accepting the idea that the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the government as a whole. The very thing that Bundy is against—he says he doesn’t even recognize the government.
So Scout—is he a “leftist” or a “socialist”? Or is he really a far right,TEA Party Republican/Libertarian racist?
I think Scout has thrown out a bunch of terms, hoping that some might just stick. A common practice, IMHO, of far right, TEA Party Republicans/Libertarians.
Even beyond parsing whether his remarks here are just misinformed (re: the abortion rate) or racist, this guy is an obvious imbecile from the get-go. He’s the ultimate welfare queen, grazing on land for free and expecting to be celebrated for it. Then he wraps himself up in a flag and acts as if this is patriotism, while denying that the federal Government really even exists.
The truth at the heart of this is ” stupid people as well as bright ones become well-off. And in either case, after they start making money, they generally feel entitled to make more and superior to other people.
As to the right wing’s sympathy for this guy, to me it echos the whole waco thing from the 90’s. Many on the right hate their government so much that they start to lionize pedophiles and theives. The left has done the same thing on occasion.
@Rick Bentley
Objecting to the heavy handed grandstanding of the ATF, their killing of children to “save them, and then bulldozing the scene, just because an undercover agent said that he saw automatic weapons in the compound….is not lionizing a pedophile. Funny how THAT part was only mentioned AFTER the ATF burned down the building.
Objecting to the BLM grandstanding of sending SWAT and snipers to collect a debt is not lionizing a thief.
We are not going to rehash Waco here on this blog. I have very strong feelings on this subject.
Okay cargo … you’re saying David Koresh wasn’t a pedophile?
Out here in the real world … This is from wikipedia …
On February 27, 1993, the Waco Tribune-Herald began publishing “The Sinful Messiah”, a series of articles by Mark England and Darlene McCormick, who alleged that Koresh had physically abused children in the compound and had committed statutory rape by taking multiple underage brides. Koresh was also said to advocate polygamy for himself and declared himself married to several female residents of the small community. According to the paper, Koresh declared he was entitled to at least 140 wives, that he was entitled to claim any of the females in the group as his, that he had fathered at least a dozen children, and that some of these mothers became brides as young as 12 or 13 years old.[
Not to speak ill of the dead, but Koresh was a real D-bag in my opinion. 12 year old wives? Not in this country, please.
Also, as to the ATF “killing children”, I think that characterization is bizarre.
Rancher Holds Up Dead Calf on “New Day”
April 25, 2014, 10:45 am
Cliven Bundy, the Nevada rancher turned conservative folk hero, joined “New Day” Friday morning to respond to the controversy surrounding comments he made about minorities and the federal government.
During the exchange with CNN’s Chris Cuomo, Bundy remained steadfast in his views and used a number of props to emphasize his points, including a dead calf, the Constitution and his own boot.
HERE ARE 4 OF THE MOST EXTREME MOMENTS FROM THE INTERVIEW:
#1) WE GO TO BUNDY AND HE’S HOLDING A DEAD CALF:
CUOMO: Mr. Bundy, I see in your arms that you are holding a dead calf. What happened?
BUNDY: Well, this dead calf died this morning. He’s been without his mother two weeks, and we found him — actually Fish and Wildlife people down in Overton, Nevada, found this calf and called us. We picked this calf up last night and tried to save his life. He’s been too long without a mother. He’s been badly abused — you can see his tongue here. Let me lay the calf down –
CUOMO: That’s probably a good idea given it’s a little early and a lot of families are watching, Mr. Bundy, so we don’t want to upset them too much.
BUNDY: Well, you know they ought to be upset. What’s wrong with America? They can’t stand a dead calf? We have a lot of dead calves around here. I want to show you these bottles right here. See these bottles right here? They’re going to feed calves that their mothers are dead or gone somewhere. In other words, we’ve got about 27 calves. This dead calf represents only one of many. Americans too darn soft-hearted to see a dead calf?
#2) BUNDY INVOKES DR. MARTIN LUTHER KING JR. AND ROSA PARKS IN SAYING HE’S NOT RACIST
BUNDY: No, I’m not a racist, but I did wonder that. But let me tell you something. You know, I thought about this this morning quite a bit.
CUOMO: Please.
BUNDY: And thought about what Reverend Martin Luther King said. And I thought about Rosa Park and taking her seat at the front of the bus. Now, Reverend Martin Luther King did not want her to take her seat in the front of the bus. That wasn’t what he was talking about. He did not say go to the front of the bus and that’s where your seat was. What Reverend King wanted was that she could sit anywhere in the bus and that nobody would say anything about it. And you and I can sit anywhere in the bus. That’s what he wanted. And that’s what I want. I want her to be able to sit anywhere in the bus and I want to be able to sit by her any where in that bus.
And that’s what he wanted. He didn’t want this prejudiced thing like the media tried to put on me yesterday. And I’m not going to put up with that because that’s not what he wanted and that’s not what I want. I want to sit by her anywhere in that bus and I want anybody to be able to do the same thing.
That’s what he was after, is not a prejudice thing, but make us equal.
#3) BUNDY TAKES HIS BOOT OFF BECAUSE “HE’S PUT HIS FOOT IN HIS MOUTH”
CUOMO: I understand that Martin Luther King’s message was one of peace and freedom, and that when you suggest that you were wondering if blacks were better off as slaves, that that’s the opposite of freedom, and very offensive to people. And I think you probably know that.
BUNDY: Well, let me tell you — I took this boot off so I wouldn’t put my foot in my mouth with the boot on. But let me see if I can say something.
You know, maybe I sinned and maybe I need to ask forgiveness and maybe I don’t know what I actually said. But, you know, when you talk about prejudice, we’re talking about not being able to exercise what we think and our feelings. We’re not freedom — we don’t have freedom to say what we want. If I call — if I say Negro or black boy or slave, I’m — if those people cannot take those kind of words and not be offensive, then Martin Luther King hasn’t got his job done yet. They should be able to — I should be able to say those things and they shouldn’t offend anybody. I didn’t mean to offend them.
#4) BUNDY HOLDS UP A COPY OF THE CONSTITUTION
CUOMO: The Constitution in Article 1 Section 8 and in the Fifth Amendment gives the federal government the right to appropriate and purchase land. Your state constitution recognizes –
BUNDY: For what person? For what purpose?
CUOMO: For purposes it deems appropriate.
BUNDY: For what purpose can they do it?
CUOMO: And it specifically –
BUNDY: No, it don’t say that.
CUOMO: Oh, absolutely it does. You should read the book instead of just holding it in your pocket maybe. But when you look at your state constitution, it says that it respects the federal law. And that’s why your ranchers, your brother and sister ranchers, pay the fees that you refuse to.
Now you come on the show, you hold up a dead calf and that makes everybody upset. But you should look at yourself for why the calf is dead, because if you paid the fees, this wouldn’t have happened. Isn’t that a fair point?
BUNDY: No, it’s not.
CUOMO: Because?
BUNDY: It’s not a fair point at all. This is the United States of America. I live in a sovereign state, the State of Nevada, and I abide by all the state laws. And I’ll be damned if this is property of the United States. They have no business here. They have no business harassing my cattle, abusing this calf to the point he’s dead. They left this calf for two weeks without a mother.
http://newday.blogs.cnn.com/2014/04/25/rancher-holds-up-dead-calf-on-new-day/
OMG that us disgusting. Where do you righties find these people?
First of all, I think Steve Thomas’s comment at 0852 is splendid. Bravo.
I guess I should also respond to George. I acknowledge that the labels have been pretty much sucked dry of real content or meaning in the last ten or so years. That’s one of my constant leitmotifs on these blogs. Very few people seem to have a really authentic, cohesive political philosophy – they just get ensnared by catch-phrases and manipulation by the cable news channel that they are glued to.
What I was trying to convey is that Bundy seems to have very strong negative views about some people’s receiving Government support, but he himself seems to think he is owed government (i.e., taxpayor) support for his private endeavours. I view that as a collectivist, socialist instinct, no matter how cool looking the cowboy clothes, or how one drapes it with “right-wing” verbiage. But that’s the total irony of this – that this guy is essentially arguing for (or at least has buried within his position) strong government intervention in what one would normally view as private enterprise.
Madam Moon, for all the times that Starryflights has insulted posters on this blog, please don’t ask others to be courteous to him. And, if you want to see how a troll works, go back in the recent archives and check out Scout dissing Citizen Tom on Tom’s own blog over the latter’s religious faith. Scout is a troll and he knows it. But at least he is a troll who is clever with the language.
May I ask that you yourself be careful about misreading my posts. This is the third time in recent months when I have been accused of casting personal aspersions on the blogmeister when no such thing happened.
Now, I wish to thank one and all for the Bundy ranch incidents, most of all Neil Kornze and Secretary Jewell. One could not have staged it better than the performance into which the BLM fell in Nevada, replete with federal enforcers with big guns and tasers and attack dogs and camouflage facing private citizens . Wonderful video for the run-up to the midterms, especially in the wake of the IRS, NSA, and the promised personal penalties threatened by the ACA. But I would politely request that, the next time you do it, please bring in the MRAP’s and other heavy security vehicles. This will really spice up the videos for the internet and news reports. Sort of a Tiananmen Square thing, if you get my drift.
I never said you said I said that. I said I was an Obama backer so the logical conclusion would be I was whatever you were talking about. I don’t remember the details. It was the conclusion *I* drew. I must be a troll on my own blog.
Scout is not a troll here. He is a main contributor and a valued contributor. I am not going to go see what he does on Citizen Tom’s blog. It isn’t my problem.
Paragrpah 3. If the private citizens were on public land, they might be getting what’ s coming to them. Maybe they should have gone home to their house and there would be no issue. I don’t know why you think people agree with you on this issue. Bundy is a free loader. He needs to pay his bills. Yes, the feds come after you if you owe them money.
And, in case you are wondering, Mrs W’s first home was a Western cattle spread – sans electricity and sans running water. Got pictures of her father astride his quarter horse and carrying his bullwhip. He used to kill the rattlesnakes by grabbing their tails and snapping their heads off. He was also a crack shot with a rifle.
As for me, well, maybe Moon’s Virginia relatives had outdoor toilets in the 1870’s but old Wolverine had to use the outdoor two-seater all the time in the 1940’s and 1950’s when he was on the farm where Grandpa lived. If you couldn’t hold No. 2 until you got home, Winter was a bit of a torture, I am telling you.
I am just guessing that they had outdoor toilets. Didn’t everyone in 1870?
Its just a good thing I was born in the era I was born in.
Wonder which Dem VIP politico in Washington called Sally Jewell and told her to get those BLM people out of there ASAP? Come on, people. No matter what you may feel about Cliven Bundy and his cause or his beliefs, it was as politically dumb as dumb can be for the BLM to put on a federal enforcer performance in front of the videos, especially when predictions for the Dems at midterms is getting gloomy. But thank you to Washington for being so inept. If that is your game, just keep the performances coming for public consumption.
Just why is it that you think it was dumb to put on a federal enforcer performance?
Do you expect the federal government to just ignore non-compliance?
I have been polite to CT way beyond the merits of his posts. I have no doubt that he sincerely believes every amazing thing he says. He puts out a lot of stuff that to leave unremarked, would subtract from the sum total of human knowledge. I engage him because it would be good for him to have to think a bit about some of the stuff he puts out. If he chooses not to, that’s his privilege.
“He puts out a lot of stuff that to leave unremarked, would subtract from the sum of human knowledge. I engage him because it would be good for him to have to think a bit about some of the stuff he puts out.”
Voila, Monsieur. I would say that the above quote is a fine example of dedicated trolling, complete with arrogance and insult. Thank you. I did not know that you had assumed blogosphere responsibility for the sum of human knowledge. One learns something every day on the blogs.
@Moon-howler
Mr. Jefferson had indoor toilets at Monticello. Not the kind that flush but they were indoors. 😉 One of his many inventions.
Ewwwwww.Well, sorta indoors. When was the first flushing toilet in America?
@Rick Bentley
No…. I said that the original complaint for the raid was the ATF trying to arrest Koresh for having automatic weapons. The stories of the child abuse came later.
As for the ATF killing children…what else to you call it when you set a building on fire, and then continue to fire INTO the building.
@Moon-howler
“Do you expect the federal government to just ignore non-compliance?”
Well, they seem to have for the last 20 years. Of course, if Bundy pays the BLM, that means that he has to accept their conditions, etc. And THEY are trying to put him out of business and take his ranch. WHY should he pay them to take his ranch? What does he have to lose?
If they want to get the money, paying almost $1 million dollars to contract cowboys and spending more money on assault forces to collect a debt…..shows typical gov’t math. They SPENT MORE than they would have gotten from any sale or collection.
Why do you think they are trying to take his ranch?
Full circle…why isn’t he grazing his animals on his own ranch property.
I am serious about WAco. I really don’t want to revisit it here.
And speaking of toilets, here is an interesting tidbit from Wikipedia: circa 26th century BC: Flush toilets were first used in the Indus Valley Civilization. The cities of Harappa and Mohenjo-daro had a flush toilet in almost every house, attached to a sophisticated sewage system.
Americans were really slow on the uptake on flush toilets. The Brits had flush toilets maybe as much as 50 years before we did–they had the famous Thomas Crapper and his company. 😉
@Starry flights
What’s wrong, Starry? Too “soft hearted” to see how the gov’t treats the property of a citizen? That calf is the result of government actions. And since the order was for the collection of cattle, not killing them, that would seem to be an illegal action.
By the way, Starry, we have the same question when we talk about you.
” Oh, Disgusting! Where do you lefties find these people?”
Shoot, Cargo, it looks to me like those BLM buggers actually shot at least four of the mother cows to death without a thought for the fate of the very young calves left on their own and lost in the brush.
I guess that’s what they call thinning the herd. Some folks call it a BBQ.
What should the BLM response have been?
They were miles away from the ‘Bundy Ranch’. When did the snipers get there – before or after the militia? There are all kinds of statements made – by Bundy about the killing of cows and a mass grave – how many, photos of the mass grave? Is it true? He also says that the feds have no rights over the land. He does not own the Fed land – and his parents bought this 160 acre ranch in 1959. How could they have been using this land since 1877 – where is the other ranch in relation to this ranch. So many unanswered/unknown questions – hard to decide what is right and wrong. This I do know – he lost his last appeal and has refused to remove his herd – and he was told they would come get the herd and remove them. So many details and so many people that are just gullible enough to believe everything that Bundy says – even the slave stuff.
Hypocrites – gotta love em. It was funny when the response to occupy wall street was over handed with unarmed peaceful people being tasered and pepper sprayed – but they have a problem with a man who kicked a BLM dog being tasered.
Yep, I have a problem with that man being tasered because he defended himself against a dog, whose dog handler couldn’t control him.
The BLM should have contacted the IRS and put liens on all income and property. You don’t send SWAT and snipers to “collect a debt” nor do you spend more money than you are going to get from said debt.
You are pulling out isolated incidents and ignoring what other ranchers have done. notice that bundy doesn’t have the support of the organized rancher alliances.
@Cargosquid
and what about the occupy wall street people that were just sitting or even standing in the ‘zone’ who were just peppered sprayed right in their face? Hypocrites. It was wrong then and it is wrong now.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/23/pepper-spray-cop-uc-davis-compensation
liens would not have worked – it is not just a monetary thing – it was not just about the debt. Again, I do not know the timeline and cannot trust Bundy to give a good timeline – when was swat sent in wrt the timeline? BLM was miles away from his ranch, I do not think they even went near it. Where are the photos of the mass grave?
@Moon-howler
Pulling out what isolated incidents?
I mentioned the tasered man because someone else did.
And the snipers were an integral part of the BLM action.
@Pat.Herve
I agree. The Occupy people should have been ignored. Not sprayed.
Not about the money? Of course not. But the BLM said that it was. So do what the rest of the gov’t agencies do. Put liens on him and garnish income.
Here’s a pic of a cow being taken out of the grave that the BLM was digging.
http://www.westernjournalism.com/bundy-family-releases-disturbing-images-blm-cattle-slaughter/
The slaughter appears to had been just begun.
Let’s see…habitat destruction, property destruction, live stock killing……yep…I’m sure that the BLM was instructed to do all that to impound his cattle.
Those were students! They weren’t Occupy people. They had every right to be there.
As for those gross pictures…do you seriously think I am going to take the word of a media source like that? It screams far right wing. SHRIEKS even.
Find it in something neutral, then we can talk about slaughtering livestock.
A source that obviously biased really can’t be taken seriously.
re snipers
Its their job to protect those agents. BFD. They had snipers. It looked more like a swat team to me and I would have them two with that bunch of yahoos out there waving rifes, shotguns and side arms. I am GLAD they had snipers out there.
@Cargosquid
The BLM did not say it was about the money.
The Court Ordered that he remove all the cattle from the area. With a warning that they would be removed if he did not. The BLM responded by removing the cattle (at least beginning the process).
The photos from westernjournalism – so, the cattle are not allowed to graze, yet the BLM is going to let an excavator enter the property? I question the authenticity.
So do I. Phony alert!
First they try to charge grazing fees, next thing you know they’ll be charging people income tax and trying to build a better society with it. Slippery path to socialism. Thank God for heroes like Bundy who represent the new virulent conservatism. America does not exist and if anyone tries to tell you that it does, arm yourself and hide behind the women folk.
Bwaaahahahahahahhaha! Is that before or after the wimmin folk get the vote?
With men like Bundy leading the way, we can restore America to the truly great land that it once was. Before slaves were freed to loiter, women could vote instead of serving as human shields, and all the rest of these changes that have changed America for the worse.
There was also a time when kids had work to do, now there’s public schooling and kids are loitering around all over the place. Negros loitering, kids going to school learning about evolution, and women in the big cities aren’t even willing to support their men by standing between them and gunfire. The whole country’s going to hell in a handbasket.