Late Friday afternoon before the Memorial Day weekend, Sen. Richard Burr (R-N.C.) penned an “open letter to America’s Veterans” in which he took several veterans service groups to task for being insufficiently critical of Veterans Affairs Secretary Eric Shinseki.
Burr accused the groups (with the exception of the American Legion) of being more invested in maintaining access to the secretary than with fixing a troubled health care system. He questioned why they haven’t called for a leadership change at the VA, and pointedly charged the groups’ leaders with not caring about the health and well-being of their members.
Burr’s letter was in response to the testimony that Shinseki and seven of these veteran service organizations (VSO) had given before his committee the week prior, concerning revelations and allegations of long wait times, bureaucratic malfeasance and insufficient care at the VA.
Not surprisingly, leaders at the veterans groups Burr named were not pleased with the letter.
In their own letter, Veterans of Foreign Wars responded to Burr by calling his letter a “monumental cheap-shot” and labeling it “one of the most dishonorable and grossly inappropriate acts that we’ve witnessed in more than forty years of involvement with the veteran community.” If the tone wasn’t clear, the group added that Burr’s conduct and allegations were “ugly and mean-spirited in every sense of the words and profoundly wrong, both logically and morally,” in addition to breaching “the standards of the United States Senate.”
The general state of piss-offed-ness didn’t stop with the VFW. The Paralyzed Veterans of America, Disabled American Veterans all fought back with scathing letters to Senator Burr. So far, Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America, Student Veterans of America and Vietnam Veterans of America haven’t responded. Expect, however, angry letter to follow.
Good for the veterans groups. How dare some lofty senator sit up and stand in judgement of these groups and their leadership? What is Burr’s military record? Just reading his open letter, it was apparent that it was all about grand-standing and all about politics. Let’s listen to all the veterans groups before we start throwing stones at the VA leadership.
From my understanding, Burr never served in the military, and he didn’t even stay to listen to the veterans testimony at the recent committee hearings. Good for the actual veterans- too bad Burr’s not up for re-election soon!
There is absolutely no question that a commanding general of a military unit that failed an important part of its mission in multiple locations and then covered it up would be relieved of command. I see no reason why the VA should have a different standard.
So it has been puzzling to me to consider why these veterans organizations have had such muted responses to this scandal. The vast majority of veterans that I know thinks that Shinseki should be fired. My favorite military blogs (i.e. Blackfive) are unanimous that Shinseki should get the axe. Even Dana Milbank thinks Shinseki should go (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/veterans-affairs-secretary-eric-shinseki-should-go/2014/05/16/fb2a0948-dd02-11e3-bda1-9b46b2066796_story.html).
Certainly differences of opinion are understandable. But the united front of veterans organizations (other than the American Legion) in support of Shinseki does seem has very curious. Me thinks these organizations doth protest too much ….
Kelly, I think you are comparing apples to oranges.
One reason the Vet groups support him is because of the serious improvements he has made to the entire VA. Maybe they aren’t “fire happy.” Maybe they look what he has personally made happen and consider it more important than something he had no knowledge of.
Shinseki merits respect for his service. It may be that the VA mess is so bad that he should be asked to step aside. But veterans’ groups recognize his service and his dedication to his troops and understand that he didn’t create these problems and has probably done his best to address them. New blood may be in order, but Shinseki is an honorable member of the armed services. This is totally lost on someone like Burr, who didn’t serve and is just in the usual political scalp-hunting mode. Anything for a TV moment.
Scout wrote: “This is totally lost on someone like Burr, who didn’t serve and is just in the usual political scalp-hunting mode. Anything for a TV moment.”
I agree and the same can be said of Dana Milbank–never served a day yet is willing to tai cheap shots. As Scout has also noted, it may just be that Shinseki has to step aside in order for this whole thing to move forward.
It is very difficult to imagine just how big the veteran population is. There are about 22 MILLION veterans (1.25 million are WWII veterans). Over ⅓ are enrolled in the VA health care system–almost 9 MILLION. And these numbers are growing every day. There is no other system in this nation that is that large or that complex. And this doesn’t take into consideration, the administration of VA housing loans, the VA education program, VA life insurance program, and VA disability payments. Nearly 7 MILLION “unique” patients were treated in FY 13. I’m not certain what “unique” means in this instance but the VA is HUGE. Yes, there are a lot of mistakes, and yes, veterans have died waiting for treatment but in the totality of it, this whole thing has been sensationalized by the media and by Congress. I don’t mean to belittle the issue, but how many of those 40 veterans would have died regardless of how much treatment they got? We may never know. I would vouchsafe say that more homeless people than this die every day on the streets of this country. And certainly more people are murdered every day in this country.
While the coverup is abhorrent, it may just be that desperate people do desperate things. They system is under a tremendous amount of pressure and so terrible things are the result. Perhaps one of the biggest issues is the shortage of primary care physicians who simply won’t work for the VA because there is just not enough compensation in it for them. Any primary care physician can make twice as much on the “outside” as on the “inside”-roughly $125K vice $250K. Let’s face it, physicians (and other health care professionals) go where the money is. Altruism makes thin soup and doesn’t pay the high cost of a medical education.
George, thank you so much for your insight into this entire VA mess. I will listen to you above everyone else on the subject because I know your field and it is your business to know these things.
Money is critical and I believe our VA facilities are being asked to perform miracles with no money. (sort of like PWCS expect people to create time).
When goals are unachievable through no fault of one’s own, people cook books. Its a matter of self preservation.
The repugs do not want to solve the problem of improving veterans health care. They just want to score political points. Shinseki was an outspoken critic of the Iraq war which repugs have never liked him for.
HOW SOON THEY FORGET IN THEIR ANGER
Disabled American Veterans (DAV) in May 2014: “Over the past decade, DAV –along with many of our veterans service organization partners — have pointed out that the VA has received more than $17 billion less than was needed, a figure that primarily derived from VA’s own internal analysis. Although these facts have been clear to successive Administrations and Congress — including Senator Burr — none took the actions necessary to provide VA the resources it requires.”
Disabled American Veterans (DAV) in March 2010: 16 DAV chapter commanders and representatives from North Carolina presented Senator Burr with a commendation for his leadership in ensuring sufficient and predictable funding for health care services for American veterans.
(DAV was founded in 1920 by disabled World War I vets. Estimate of today’s national membership: about 1.2 million. Good organization.)
Burr was also the author in 2010 of the “Welcome Home Vietnam Veterans Day” because those vets did not get welcomed home in their day. (Thank you, Senator) It passed the Senate unanimously. He was also instrumental in getting military vets the right to attend colleges and universities in North Carolina at in-state tuition rates no matter their state of origin. That meant that vets serving in NC could stay there for college. There are other things, including serving on the West Point Board of Visitors. Seems to me that Sen Burr has a reputation for his interest in the welfare of veterans.
Too bad that one letter — which could have been worded better, IMO — gets him a full ration of crap. As for not serving, I thought you all understood that the US Congress has far, far fewer military vet members than it has had for a long, long time. I thought we had managed to get past that old bit about, if you haven’t served in uniform yourself, shut your ignorant civilian mouth.
That one letter was hideous. It should not have ever happened. He deserves a ration of crap. I actually don’t care if people serve in the military or not. The tone of his letter is what did him in.
You are certainly willing to give Hillary a full ration of crap over Benghazi, btw.
The GOP has repeatedly blocked additional funding for the veterans to deal with the enormity of the issues as outlined by George.
From liberal sites but the information is verifiable: https://www.politicususa.com/2014/05/29/loud-critic-va-tables-turned-voting-record-vets-sucks.html
VA related bills the GOP has voted against, including a Democratic funding bill to provide an additional 2 billion in 2012 to address the backlog issue:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/10/23/1249904/-GOP-s-actual-track-record-on-supporting-veterans#
Once again, as with healhcare, immigration, the failure at Benghazi, the problems at the IRS, and on and on, the GOP seems more interested in politics than actually getting down to the hard work of dealing with the problem.
The point about service in this context, Wolve, is that some of the residual reluctance to toss out Shinseki is based on the fact that the members of veterans groups have military experience that help them realize Shinseki’s personal qualities. He’s not just a scalp. He’s a senior officer who served with honour and distinction. To a pol, this is largely a part of trying to inflict cuts on the Administration. I also think veterans’ groups understand full well that the VA’s problems were not of Shinseki’s making and are so deeply engrained that scape=goating the guy at the top is just cosmetics.
I accept that, as is often the case with a sports team that’s struggling, sometimes one has to make a change at the top just to make a visible, quick difference. But a lot of what’s coming out of the Congress (which, by the way, bears significant responsibility itself for many of VA’s ills) is the same old destructive marketing theme of trying to tear down parts of the executive branch for cheap political gain. Fundamental systemic reform is the only real answer.
Bravo!!!!!! @Scout
“This predates my presidency. When I was in the Senate I was on the Veterans Affairs Committee. I heard first hand veterans who were not getting the kinds of services and benefits that they had earned.”
So what has President Obama been doing about it since he’s known about it for his ENTIRE presidency?
And this isn’t just to hit on Obama? ANY President that says something like this deserves to be asked pointed questions of this nature? Why in the world would you say something like this? Does he not actually realize that he can’t vote “present” anymore?
EDIT…pleas ignore inappropriate ? marks.
Supposed to be periods.
And, Scout, you know as well as I do that, no matter the heroics of a man on the battlefield and no matter the level of command held in the military, there is no guarantee that every such man will be able to manage a large, less disciplined civilian organization as well as he did his military commands. Two vastly different worlds, as we both know. My own opinion is that, in a way, Shinseki did a U.S. Grant in his civilian role. Some things he could handle. Other things — big things — got away from him for five long years. He was on the wrong battlefield, and his civil servant batmen failed him. And I say that as a fellow Vietnam vet. New commander is needed (and I see we are going to get one.)
Perhaps the VA is just too large to be managed efficiently and effectively, without flaws.
Silly country in which one short letter written in the heat of anger is used to negate everything else a man has done. And that letter did not result in the death of any Americans.
One could say the same thing about Shineski. He was excoriated when he had no direct knowledge or control over a situation.
Anger? We don’t pay or elect senators to be angry.
Back to Hillary. You speak as though she was personally in Benghazi. Oh politics are a nasty game, my partisan friend. You are willing to forgive someone who had a direct role in something ugly and hang those not in direct control out to dry.
I actually think it was cowardly on the part of Obama to force the resignation of Shinseki. I feel he is the one person who could probably have gotten the mess cleaned up.
General Shinseki:
“I was too trusting of some, and I accepted as accurate reports that I now know to have been misleading with regard to patient wait times. I can’t explain the lack of integrity among some of the leaders of the health care facilities. This is something I rarely encountered during 38 years in uniform and so I will not defend it because it is indefensible but I can take responsibility for it and I do.”
So he is basically fired. What a strange world we live in.
I would want to get to the bottom of why people played with the books. What was their motive? It is perfectly obvious to me, if you remove politics.
congress didn’t allocate enough money to operate the VA efficiently. There are more vets needing service than doctors, nurses or spots in appointment books.
So we fire the one person who has done the most for vets. How stupid.
Ok, Shinseki is gone, problem solved, right?
I’ll ask again in five years if congress has addressed the underlying problems of inadequate pay for VA doctors resulting in not enough doctors resulting in long wait times, the outdated record-keeping, etc. I wonder what the answer will be. My bet is that once the political posturing is over, nothing will happen and the GOP will continue to block all attempts to rectify the situation.
Bravo, standing ovation for middleman. I agree.
One last humiliating kick in the crotch, as the song goes.
Congress always points a finger at someone else. They expect others to turn water into wine and refuse to fund it.
I expect that might have been the problem with guards in Benghazi. $$$$$$
I hear that same drivel out of local politicians also. People not in the situation telling others how to save money. It sickens me.
The next step should be to remove all the regional directors of the VA healthcare system. It appears that they are the real villains here. The next step will be up to Obama himself. Does he want to put in a new secretary with the authority to shake things up and make recommendations to Congress for transformation? Or does he want to name a blue-ribbon committee to investigate the problem and develop a plan to reorganize the system?
Shinseki is indeed a man of integrity, so it gives me no pleasure to see him go. But he seems ill-equipped to deal with a huge bureaucracy that refused to tell him everything. One would assume that the BIG lesson from all this is ‘Trust but Verify’. One cannot simply take the word of entrenched bureaucrats that all is well.
The other lesson is that the VA is rife with unethical people in management positions. The big question is whether this unethical leadership is confined to the VA. We have seen signs of it elsewhere (e.g. IRS). Should we take this as a warning sign?
Kelly, is anyone equipped to deal with a bureaucracy that large? Is there any agency that will tell anyone everything?
I say no. Let’s face it…administrations come and go. The worker bees really don’t belong to that part of the system. They are protecting their turf. Its often easier to stretch the truth when you know you can’t do the task in the first place. I have always called that programming for failure.
Demanding herculean tasks without the real tools to do it or a task that is impossible in the first place.
One of my best friends retired from teaching because of this very issue. She was a great teacher with many accomplishments. However, during goal setting, she was told 100% of her students would pass the SOL in reading and writing. She was at a school that has a fairly high number of LEP, minority, sped and economically disadvantaged. 100%? That’s freaking insane. She turned in her papers rather than going a couple more years.
Some teachers not near retirement just fudge things. In Virginia, 40% of a teacher’s evaluation is based on test results. That’s insane! 10%? ok. More than that? No. Too much isn’t in the teacher’s control.
I find Kelly’s condemning comment at #23 far too sweeping. “Ill equipped”, “entrenched bureaucrats”, ” rife with unethical people in management positions”, “The big question is whether this unethical leadership is confined to the VA. We have seen signs of it elsewhere (e.g. IRS). Should we take this as a warning sign?”
WOW! All I can say is, “Jumping to conclusions is not a very good exercise program.”
I would agree that a “blue ribbon panel” MIGHT be the way to go but “Caveat emptor”. Blue ribbon panels can go far astray–remember the camel is a horse put together by a panel. This will take people who understand government systems and health care systems, medical IT systems along with compensation for providers. Finally veterans have to be included–but not just generals and admirals. Remember this is the largest health care system in this nation–it won’t be easy.
It is the mission of the VA: “To care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow, and his orphan.” A huge job.
I was unaware widows and orphans were included. To what degree? I know the widows can be buried in military cemeteries with their husbands but not much more than that. Oh I knew they got benefit checks for some military related illnesses and wounds also.
In keeping with the motto of the VA, “To care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow, and his orphan”, perhaps what is needed is a two tier system–one for veterans with combat related health issue and one for non-combat veterans/veterans with no combat related health issues. Veterans with combat related health issue would be treated in VA facilities. If veterans with combat related health issues live too far away from VA facilities, then they could opt to enroll in the civilian care program–perhaps totally subsidized. The non-combat veterans would be in a program similar to the Federal Employee Health Benefit Program, with a premium subsidy similar to that of federal employees, which includes members of Congress, and must use the civilian health care system. In addition, there is a CHAMPVA program for survivors of certain veterans (too lengthy to discuss here).
George, how about YOU being on the clean up committee? Your ideas sound better than any others I have heard and with your experience, you are the best man for the job. We would just have to program you first, not to call anyone a son of a bitch or worse. Or maybe it wouldn’t even matter if you did. You would need to get their attention.
Of course, Wolve. That happens a lot. People have different competencies in different settings. I’m not making the point that Shinseki was the best man in the world to head the VA. I was making the point that Burr’s goading of veterans groups was more reflective of Burr’s frustration at people not playing along with the mean children’s polticial games than it was about the VA.
It appears that Shinseki’s estimable personal qualities have manifested themselves once again in his exit decision. Good for him.
@Moon: The VA motto comes from President Lincoln’s Second Inaugural address. LIke the Gettysburg Address, it is absolutely sublime, and like the Gettysburg Address, school children around the country would do well to commit it to memory. Actually – it probably is better committed to memory by adults who can have some understanding of its depth and wisdom.
I wonder if Lincoln understood its depth or wisdom at the time. Somehow, I doubt it.
@Moon-howler
In his own words, Lincoln said: “The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here.”
@Moon-howler
“George, how about YOU being on the clean up committee?” I don’t know about that but it just seems too logical for it to not work. To me, those who have, “borne the battle”, is pretty definitive. What many folks don’t know is that for every combat person there are about four support personnel–some may be in theater and some will never leave our shores. And many in theater will never see “combat”. Many, including me, saw the results of combat–medical units aren’t out in the weeds. These are the kind of people I think could be in some program that is ancillary to the in-house VA medical care. The present VA queueing system (8 categories) does weed out some but there are still way too many demands on the system. If you are interested in seeing the various categories, take a peek here: http://www.va.gov/opa/publications/benefits_book/benefits_chap01.asp
You will see just how complicated and overwhelmed the system is when you see who is eligible.
Totally disagree. While Truman once said that the “buck” stopped at his Oval Office desk, that “buck” makes an important stop on the way to the Oval Office at the desks of the first-line managers. If middle management fails, that has to be seen as a managerial fault of the first-line manager. Either he/she puts adequate integrity and performance pressure on the middle managers or he/she accepts responsibility for the failure of that mid-level cadre to perform. General Shinseki, by his own admission, did not verify what he was being told by middle management; and the VA is now mired in public scandal. As laudable as his military career was, he failed on this civilian mission. Period.
Hillary Clinton, to give her the benefit of some doubt, did not verify that the US Mission in Libya was as secure as it could be made against terrorist attack in a rapidly deteriorating security situation. And she was, in my opinion, a direct participant in giving the American people a false story about the cause of the attack and in limiting the amount of data available to Congressional investigators — unless she is willing to blame Obama for all the post-incident flaps. What is still unclear is whether it was Hillary Clinton or someone else at State who was responsible for saying the final “no” to Ambassador Stevens’ requests for better security. Stevens was a handpicked envoy and very much a favorite of Foggy Bottom in a very critical foreign policy spot. My bet is that Hillary is the one who said “no” and refuses to accept the real (as opposed to pro forma) responsibility because of her likely political ambitions in 2016. If she is not guilty, then one must ask what kind of staff control and quality she had that they would take such critical actions (and ultimately costly actions in terms of American lives) in her name and not tell her. (At least Shinseki admitted his own faults.)
Hillary is being touted by Dems as the next POTUS. Excuse me while I, as an American voter, seek to find out to the max the true quality of her past performance. Call that partisan if you will, but I was raised to believe that such was our responsibility as a citizens.
…and now we’ve pivoted to Hillary- THAT didn’t take long!
To temporarily get back to the subject at hand before we move on to our next president, I agree that Shinseki should have known that the secret wait-list was going on, but if you were one of the folks participating in this falsehood, don’t you think you would make sure he didn’t? Could that be why he didn’t know- they hid it pretty well because they’d be fired if he found out? Whatever, he’s gone now and maybe we should put that bastion of fairness and honesty, Darrell Issa on the job to “study” the situation. HE’ll get to the bottom of the issue and come up with meaningful reforms, just like he did with Benghazi, the IRS and Fast and Furious!
The folks responsible for the “zeroing out” should be fired and we should move on to address the real problems.
You can reorganize all you want, fire all the folks you can find, and the underlying problem here will remain- not enough doctors, too many patients. We can either find a way to get more doctors into the system or reduce the number of patients by reducing the number of wars. The physician deficit is an issue across the spectrum, from Medicare to small-town America to the VA. This problem is systemic, and we need to deal with it across the board.
Boom! Pow! [fist pump]
middleman hits one out of the ball park!!!
@middleman
Mmmmmmm …. If it is this complicated, difficult, and expensive to manage healthcare for the VA, perhaps this is just a preview of the coming attractions for government-managed healthcare. VA healthcare is available to a uniform, relatively small population, albeit spread over several generations. Just imagine how much more complicated it will be to manage healthcare for the much more diverse, general population of the entire country.
It is hard to imagine how Obamacare, or whatever it evolves into, will not be subject to at least the same stresses as the VA. It may be a good time to re-examine just how much we want government involved in delivery of healthcare.
With that in mind, maybe the entire VA health system should just be dismantled. Veterans could move to private practitioners for cost-reimbursable services. The VA would then manage payments for treatment rather than manage/deliver treatment.
Did you see George’s plan? It seemed like the smartest thing I have seen.
“Obamacare” is not managed health care–not by a long stretch.
Getting rid of the VA is not an option. In addition to health care for
vets, they are also responsible for retirement pensions, GI bill benefits,
employment, home loans, disability, dependents’ and survivors’ benefits,
etc. they also manage burials and memorials. We need to take care of our
vets. They sacrificed a lot for us and they were promised benefits.
Absolutely!
Starry, thanks for the reminder about all the services the VA provides. My father got his Master’s Degree through the GI bill. Is that provided through the VA? It sure beats how he got his BA–getting his head beaten in playing 3 sports a year.
@Starryflights
If you re-read what I said, you will see that I suggested dismantling of the VA health system. There was no mention of dismantling the rest of the VA.
George proposed that healthcare delivered by the VA should be limited to combat-related issues with most other vets to be treated at civilian facilities. This might be an acceptable alternative if the corrupt managers in the VA can be rooted out.
I wonder how the vets would feel about your suggestion?
They might welcome it if VA facilities were not within easy travel distance.
…and now we pivot to the ever-present GOP mantra- every new situation, related or not, is another reason to eliminate Obamacare! Because what we had before worked so well!!!
The fatal flaw in this logic linking Obamacare to the VA system is that government overseen healthcare is quite different than government PROVIDED healthcare, which is what the VA is. And all indications are that government PROVIDED healthcare works great once you’re seen, it’s just that some folks don’t get seen as soon as we’d like because the VA lacks enough personnel for all the patients our war machine has produced (and don’t overreact to my use of “war machine,” I do think the machine is needed sometimes, we just tend to over-use it just because we have it and because the military-industrial lobby is always pushing for more war- with John McCain cheerleading).
But I digress. Of course Obamacare will be subject to the same stresses as the VA and small town America and Medicare- not enough general practitioners. The GP’s are often the “gateway” doctors- you can’t get into the system without seeing a GP first, hence the wait times. So do we dismantle the VA and Obamacare in response, or do we look at why we aren’t producing enough GP’s? Medical specialists make much more than generalists, so there’s a huge disincentive there. This is a systemic issue in American medicine and won’t go away easily.
I realize that the GOP is trying to use the veterans issue as a way to get back to our bad old system of denied care for pre-existing conditions or “experimental” treatments, yearly maximum payouts, 18 year-old cutoffs, or no care at all while maximizing insurance company profits, but I think that horse is out of the barn- and we ain’t goin’ back.
There goes another homerun…clear out of the ball park.
Perhaps government money could be used to supplement the GP docs who go into the less populated areas where people try to pay their medical bills with eggs and homemade jams.
Just a cotton picking minute here, middleman. You seem to be rather negligent about researching before you aim your spitballs. If you check #9, you will see that it was none other than our managing blogmeister who brought Hillary Clinton into this thread. Chew on her butt for once.
@middleman
No. It may be out of the park, but it’s just a foul ball to the Left without being even remotely close to fair.
The issue is whether the government can be expected to manage programs in a fair and impartial manner for the common good. We have now seen two recent cases in which the bureaucracy used its power for less-than-honorable purposes. In the case of the VA, it used its power to hide wait times to maximize pay bonuses for individual bureaucrats, despite the negative impact on Vets requiring medical attention. This was systematic throughout the VA. In the case of the IRS, we saw that it used its power to delay/deny tax-exempt status for conservative organizations due to their political opposition to the Administration.
So the question is why should the government be entrusted to manage Healthcare for the country? The same bureaucrats will make rules, set policy, and manage payment decisions. They will eventually be subject to the same forces as VA healthcare that will result in self-serving, unfair policies and unacceptable care for many citizens. It is inevitable.
This is an opportunity to re-examine the prudence of giving the federal government so much power over our life-and-death decisions.
Boo! Hiss! Kelly, its my ballpark. I say middleman clearly hit a homerun.
The IRS also delayed tax exemption for liberal groups. The fact that there were more tea party groups than liberal groups only made it LOOK disproportionate.
I know people who got delayed. I am not just reading some liberal rag.
I fail to see how the govt is managing health care outside of the VA. It is only quasi managing medicare and Medicaid.
Ouch! Not even a line drive, Kelly?
Kelly, healthcare wasn’t working with insurance companies making all the decisions, so the government stepped in. Things seem to be improved so far, but there’s always hope (for the right) that disaster will happen.
Again, the VA issues stemmed from lack if resources to deal with the number of patients. That’s what needs to be addressed.
Tie! middleman made me laugh also….”Ouch, not even a line drive, Kelly?” Bwaaahahahahahahahahaha