70 years since D-Day. Amazing. To many of those few still alive, it is probably like it was yesterday.
From www.army.mil:
June 6, 1944, 160,000 Allied troops landed along a 50-mile stretch of heavily-fortified French coastline to fight Nazi Germany on the beaches of Normandy, France. General Dwight D. Eisenhower called the operation a crusade in which “we will accept nothing less than full victory.” More than 5,000 Ships and 13,000 aircraft supported the D-Day invasion, and by day’s end on June 6, the Allies gained a foot- hold in Normandy. The D-Day cost was high -more than 9,000 Allied Soldiers were killed or wounded — but more than 100,000 Soldiers began the march across Europe to defeat Hitler.
I have a friend whose father was killed during the invasion of Normandy. She was fortunate enough to go to France for the 60th anniversary to see his grave. She and her daughter both stood there bawling. She had never known her father. How many children grew up without fathers because of WWII?
My husband who was born during the War had lots of friends without fathers. I told him once that I thought it was so odd that he had all these friends who didn’t have fathers because of the War and I didn’t. We both thought for a while and then it dawned on us. I was a baby boomer. All the boomer’s fathers came back or there wouldn’t have been any little boomers. DOH!!
It won’t be long before all those who served in WW II are no longer with us. My own father who was probably average age during the war would be 97 this year. My uncles who served are also dead. I don’t even know anyone now from that era. I even had a British pen pal who had been a little girl during the War. She too has passed on.
My point, if you have family or friends, talk to them about their experiences. They won’t be around forever. I have to believe that they WERE the Greatest Generation. I am continually amazed every time I take a look at what they endured and what they accomplished. Where would we be without them?
[A personal aside for the day: Thanks Mom and Dad. You both did your part. You would have been married 72 years June 6, 2014. A special note of thanks to my mother who wrote her memoirs of the War. RIP]
Today there are less than a million veterans of WWII and they are dying at the rate of roughly 555 a day. So, yes Moon, it is true, they will soon be gone from our view but their legacy lives on perhaps more in Europe than here. Oh, we have parades and speeches but I am not certain that the real meaning of their sacrifices has been lost. I am old but every time I see someone REALLY old, I try to take just a minute to chat with them before their story is lost. They’re often easy to identify by the baseball caps they wear that says something like, “World War II Veteran”. And, of course, we old folks can identify someone who is REALLY old–they have more wrinkles and less hair.
I always try to speak also. In fact, I need to go back to the WWII memorial. It’s my favorite.
My mother always tried to stress to us kids that it was “nip and tuck” as to whether we would even win that war.
I am giving serious thought to publishing my mother’s memoirs. (or some of it) It is a gold mine. If my house caught fire I would grab it before I grabbed the silver.
I have never heard so much ignorance as I have this morning, listening to the news coverage of the events in Normandy. These idiots don’t understand that FDR and Churchill didn’t trust Stalin. It wasn’t one big buddy system. Hell, FDR didn’t even trust Truman apparently. He didn’t tell him or Stalin about the atomic bomb.
For some reason, I managed to lose part of what I wrote so will try to reconstruct it. Moon you noted that then General Eisenhower, “called the operation a crusade in which ‘we will accept nothing less than full victory.'” But that was the last time we accepted “nothing less than full victory.” We have not won a war since that time; we have never sat down at a table or stood on the deck of a might warship and had the vanquished enemy formally sign a surrender document. NEVER. Oh, we have had some self-proclaimed “victories” a la President Bush’s “Mission accomplished” and his father’s ending the pursuit of Saddam Hussein’s forces out of Kuwait along with President Obama’s false claims as to victory over al Qaeda and the Taliban and our ignominious withdrawal from Iraq and soon a similar withdraw from Afghanistan but no VICTORIES where there was an unconditional surrender.
Moon you recently published my musings about the price we have paid for all the wars we have fought. I am beginning to wonder if the sacrifices of our “Greatest Generation” were in vain. I’m not sure, but I sure do wonder.
Funny you should say that. After 9-11 my mother got all upset and said she was glad to know my father and her father weren’t around to see the mess we have made of things so that an awful event like 9-11 had even happened.
Think she was on to something?
You are right. No victories. Vietnam just makes me sick every time I think about it.
At least now when people sign up to be cannon fodder they do it of their own volition. Vietnam and before, the young men were in essence kidnapped by their government, fed a line of bullshit for God and country and sent to far off places.
Will someone tell me why we were in Vietnam. Do not say domino theory. I will hurl.
One of the biggest propaganda movies of all times was Green Berets. I have hated John Wayne ever since for participating in such a lie. Our country was not in jeopardy. I feel like the young men of my generation died in vain.
Moon, we went to vietnam, to prevent what happened in Korea ten years earlier. I interviewed General William Westmorland for a paper that I wrote in college, and this is what the thinking of the civilian and military leadership was at the time.
And while I can understand your Mom’s conclusions re 9/11, but we should never forget that in all the plans, policies, and doctrines we devise, our enemies do get to “vote” their opposition.
The lady was not short on opinions, that’s for sure.
I don’t know what could have been done to stop 9-11. Anything suggested would be pure speculation.
@Moon-howler
“Vietnam and before, the young men were in essence kidnapped by their government, fed a line of bullshit for God and country and sent to far off places.”
So Moon, you’re saying all those folks in our past wars where a draft was involved were “kidnapped…, fed a line of bullshit for God and Country…”? I think there are one hell of a lot of people who would take great exception to this comment, particularly those in WWII.
@steve thomas
Yes Steve, I’m sure General Westmoreland believed in what we were there for. But beginning with the Gulf of Tonkin to the very end, we who were there never had a chance. First Korea, then Vietnam, Kuwait, Iraq and soon Afghanistan–all fought for nothing.
To Moon and Steve–were we wrong to go? I can’t answer that but we went. And Moon, your demeaning of their service by claiming they were, “kidnapped…and fed a line of bullshit” is just beyond the pale.
Yes, people do sign up of, “their own volition” but some do it because they love this country and want to serve it and some do it because they can’t find a job and some do it for the “benefits”. But I don’t think anyone signs up to be, “canon fodder.”
Why on earth would I demean the WWII troops? My father and uncles served. I am speaking of the draft. I thought that was obvious.
As a person who was alive and well during Vietnam, there was more govt. bullshit during that war than you could shake a stick at. Unfortunately, I must have drunk the kool aid because I believed it for a while. Then I found out it was bullshit.
I do believe the draft kidnaps people. Sorry if anyone is offended. When you are forced to do something you don’t want to do by your government, what would YOU call it?
“Yes Steve, I’m sure General Westmoreland believed in what we were there for. But beginning with the Gulf of Tonkin to the very end, we who were there never had a chance. First Korea, then Vietnam, Kuwait, Iraq and soon Afghanistan–all fought for nothing.”
George,
I respect your service, and your opinion regarding the efficacy of our countries efforts post-WWII, though I disagree. South Korea is a free and prosperous country today. Without the efforts of the UN Coalition (And the bravery of Task Force Smith) South Korea would have been overrun in days. What we see today in North Korea, would have encompassed the entire population. Vietnam? I am sure that you will agree had we allowed the US Military to do what it was trained to do, without all of the crazy restrictions, the outcome could/probably would have been much different. Kuwait is free today, but in my opinion, we should have finished Saddam at that time. Would this have prevented the rise of Al Qaeda? Probably not, as I was the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia that angered Bin Laden. Iraq and Afghanistan…I think the historical jury is still out, but let’s agree that war is an ugly, but at times necessary thing.
I laugh when I hear “War is not the answer”. This is a silly statement, that absolutely ignores history. Sometimes it is the only answer.
I believe war was the answer in WWII. I am woefully ignorant about Korea and the Korean War so I just won’t comment.
The other wars? Maybe someone needed to go to war. I am just not sure it was us.
I am an ex supporter of the Vietnam conflict. Now I oppose it.
I agree with George. WWII was the last full victory. Korea was a compromise. Vietnam was a loss and the latter wars have been fought for nothing.
In Vietnam we learned little from the French. We had almost instantaneous coverage on the evening news. We had a large portion of the public opposed to the war. We had demonstrations in the streets. Most wars have their slogans to hoodwink the public into supporting them. The Domino Theory was Vietnam’s. Military history doesn’t always jive with American history.
I’ll disagree with George about one thing though. I know someone who signed up to be “cannon fodder”. He was probably already suffering from depression and hoped to choose suicide by war. He chose to become an army medic – not so much for altruistic reasons but because he’d be unarmed and possibly in harm’s way. Now in his sixties he’s finally getting treatment for PTSD, but some of his problems pre-dated Vietnam. There are probably a few more like him out there – some mentally ill, some heart-broken lovers, some who had given up.
Some people became cannon fodder, without their permission also. I am thinking of the stupid rules of engagement that our troops had to endure.
“In Vietnam we learned little from the French.”
Censored, This was the main thesis of my paper, for which I interviewed General Westmorland. Bernard Fall published “Street Without Joy” during the period between the French defeat at Dien Bien Phu, and during the American “Advisory Period”. I asked General Westmorland if he had read the book, what his thoughts were regarding the author’s analysis and conclusions, and why the US Armed Forces hadn’t heeded those lessons Fall specifically addressed to America. The General was quite frank; he said he had read the book prior to LBJ sending the Air Mobile Division, which marked the first major troop deployment. He said “history proved Fall correct, but our history hadn’t been written yet.
The General also added this: It was 1965, and the US had bailed the French out in two World Wars, and less than a decade earlier, the French had lost to a materially inferior enemy in Indochina. The French were no longer a global superpower. The US, on the otherhand, was still adjusting to our recent emergence as the #1 Western superpower, and the arrogance that comes along with it. The Command and Staff college, War College, and all of the institutions were preparing their officers to fight the Soviets in WW3, so fighting counter-insurgency wasn’t a priority. Sure, they borrowed much from the British experience in Malaya, but they weren’t all that interested in what the French had to say. In retrospect, this was a mistake, in his estimation.
“I believe war was the answer in WWII. I am woefully ignorant about Korea and the Korean War so I just won’t comment.”
Which is why it is referred to as “The Forgotten War”. I have studied this conflict extensively, as it was the first time free/liberal democracies faced off with against communist aggression. The North, with material support from Russia and China (tanks, artillery, aircraft, small-arms) (not to mention Russian piloted MiG aircraft) attacked the democratic South without provocation, and quickly overwhelmed the small ROK army, which pretty much lacked any offensive capability. A tiny scratch force of US Army personnel were assembled from occupation forces in Japan, fitted out with obsolete small arms and thrown up against the North Korean steamroller with one mission: buy the west some time. These men, who made up Task Force Smith (named for their commander Lt.Col Charles Smith) number 406 officers and men. They had no armor to counter the Soviet-supplied T-34 tanks. They had very little artillery to counter to match the Soviet-supplied North Korean guns. They fought like banshees, and bought the time needed to get greater forces to the port of Pusan and stabilize a perimeter. By this time the North Koreans had conquered over 90% of the South. It was from here that McArthur launched a two prong attack, combined with a Marine landing at Inchon, in the enemy’s rear, that turned things around. Were it not for the bravery and sacrifice of the men of Task Force Smith (over 50% killed, missing, or captured), the free and democratic South Korea we know today, would have ceased to exist.
And lest we forget, Truman had the bomb, and could have used it for “total victory”, but chose not to, for fear of starting another World War.
@Steve Thomas
Let me see Steve–before WWII, there was a whole Korea and after the war there were two Koreas. This was supposed to be a temporary thing but low and behold, that did not happen. Yes, North Korea (along with China and Russian Aid) nearly did conquer South Korea BUT they didn’t, thanks to those brave souls in TF Smith and the U.N. forces of some 15 other nations. The First Marine Division participated in the Inchon landing and, as you know, was involved in the terrible Chosen Reservoir but they managed to pull it off, losing far too many folks.
I suppose if you count 36.5K dead Americans and half a Korea a success, you have a far different yardstick that I do.
P.S. Did General Westmoreland ever, at any time, stand up and say, “This is wrong?” Or did he go along to get along? As for me, I believe the latter of him and other generals and admirals who sat on their hands.
@Moon-howler
Well Moon, there has been a draft a round since at least our Civil War. And there are people who do everything they can to avoid the draft including paying substitutes (one of my great-grandfathers was a “bounty” soldier), escaping to such places as Canada and Mexico or countries in South America. IMHO draft dodgers are traitors, unwilling to serve the nation that, fortunately or unfortunately, gave them the freedom to dissent. Again, IMHO, service in the military, particularly in the time of war, is the advanced course in citizenship. I, too, went to Vietnam because I believed what you have chosen to call “bullshit”–I believed that the ordinary citizen in Vietnam should be entitled to have the same types of freedom we have but unfortunately, our politicians and some of our military felt otherwise. When you are restricted from fighting an all out war, then you have tied one arm of our military behind their back. When the Command-in-Chief is giving direction from the Oval Office, field commanders are hamstrung. I came back and watched as our own country crippled our military and I became very disillusioned about the whole mess. I feel the same way about Iraq and Afghanistan. Not as many dead but tens of thousand of folks whose lives have been altered forever and over 6,000 dead is no drop in the bucket.
George, what I am calling bullshit are the lies told to the people by the military brass, the president and the congress. We have found out since that much of what we were told was lies.
I haven’t said anything one way or the other about draft dodgers. I don’t know how I feel about them, in particular, the ones from during the Vietnam era.
As for the Vietnamese, frankly, I don’t give a rat’s ass about their freedom. It isn’t my problem. If it is that precious to them, they can fight for it rather than riding around Saigon on a moped like many of them did. I wouldn’t be willing to sacrifice my kid for them. That was a horrible, stupid political war that was fueled by lies and political posturing. Too many of my generation are etched on the wall. And for what? I have no freaking clue.
Moon, I’m really sorry you feel the way you do, it must be horrible. The fact that you “don’t give a rat’s ass about their freedom” is so cynical that I have great difficulty with it. We have been very fortunate in this country to have only had the continental U.S. invaded two times-both times by the British, now our BFF. And remember, the French helped us out then. Of course, Hawaii was terrible fiasco and the Aleutian Islands were invaded but what most of us think as the homeland-only twice. And also remember that many nations joined together to fight WWII.
I suspect of all the people who read your blog, I hate war the most–I’ve seen it up close and personal and it ain’t pretty. And many of those names etched on that wall in our capital went to Vietnam not fuel by “bullshit” but by an honest desire to help the Vietnamese. They were not the ones who lost the war–it was our politicians and our military leaders who kowtowed to the politicians.
@ Censored: “I’ll disagree with George about one thing though. I know someone who signed up to be “cannon fodder”. He was probably already suffering from depression and hoped to choose suicide by war. He chose to become an army medic – not so much for altruistic reasons but because he’d be unarmed and possibly in harm’s way.”
A trend of one does not make a very strong case. Kinda like saying, “I saw a man walking single file therefore, all men walk single file.” And if that person had REALLY wanted to commit “suicide by war”, being a medic would be a good way to do it but he survived.
P.S. Very few medics are unarmed.
I am a southerner. I count 4 invasions. 2 by Great Britain (well actually they were already here), 1 by Northern Agression, and 9-11.
I don’t give a rat’s ass about Vietnam freedom. In fact, unless I have been watching the wrong TV channel, they aren’t so free now. The only free Vietnamese are here, living in the United States. I don’t bear them any ill-will. I just am not willing to give up my friends so they can be free, and they aren’t.
Isn’t Saigon renamed Ho Chi Minh City?
I don’t have the same feelings about WWII that I do about Vietnam. I don’t think we had a choice in WWII. I think war was the only solution at the time.
Vietnam was a choice.
“I suppose if you count 36.5K dead Americans and half a Korea a success, you have a far different yardstick that I do. ”
George,
I guess my yardstick is different. The division of Korea along the 38th was supposed to be “temporary”, and I am sure Stalin, Mao, and Kim all wanted things “reunified” on their terms. So much so, they attempted reunification by force of arms. I know the story of the Chosin campaign very well…what Marine doesn’t. But to your point: Look at what is happening in North Korea today. The oppression there makes the PRC look like a liberal democracy by comparison. Mass starvation. Political executions. Multi-generational incarcerations of any family that falls out of favor with the cult-of-Kim. Forced labor and torture.
South Korea has risen from the ashes of war to become a free and prosperous country, with a population of 50 million people, and a GDP ranked 26th in the world. So how do I measure success of the Korean War, and our blood investment of 36,500 KIA’s? I’d say 50 Million South Koreans are pretty damn thankful that the free world was willing to fight to keep them free and democratic. All they have to do is look to their brothers and sisters North of the DMZ, and they know what their fate could have been, and what they must do to maintain this freedom.
This is why they maintain a universal draft.
“Let me see Steve–before WWII, there was a whole Korea ”
And if my history is correct (and I know it is) before WWII there was indeed a “whole Korea”…which was “wholly” controlled by the empire of Japan. Not too sure the “hermit kingdom” was better off then either.
George, nope, I’m not saying that an example of one proves that all men walk single file. I’m saying that some of them stumble out of the line.
@Steve Thomas
You win the cigar! Korea was a “protectorate” of Japan for 35 years. We had much to do with the carve up after WWII and shame on us. And, of course, we had already done the same stupid thing in Germany. You would have thought we would have learned something. I think Dean Rusk had a lot to do with the division of Korea. A sad day for us and Korea.
George,
And the seeds of World War II were planted in a train car in Versailles in 1918. But isn’t that what “History” is: Looking back to see the cause & effect of one event to the next, one decision to the next, along a continuum to the present?
I should agree Steve. Sadly, those in charge at any given moment don’t seem to look back, learn and then not repeat the same mistakes.