washingtonpost.com:

 

In an emotional speech at a sometimes heated news conference, Mayor Bill de Blasio (D) declined to address the swirling controversy over whether his vocal efforts to reform the police department contributed to Saturday’s execution-style slaying of Officers Wenjian Liu and Rafael Ramos. Instead, de Blasio appealed for calm, visited the officers’ family members and urged residents to “put aside political debates and protests” for now.

New York City Police Commissioner William Bratton met with the heads of the city’s police unions, including one who had accused de Blasio of having “blood” on his hands for allegedly inciting protests that have roiled the city and the nation over the deaths of unarmed black people at the hands of police. “They are standing down in respect for our fallen members until after the funerals,” said Bratton, who also acknowledged that the mayor has “lost the trust of some officers.”

It was unclear whether the efforts to promote peace will succeed, even as New Yorkers busily prepared for the Christmas holidays. A coalition of protest groups released a statement blasting both Bratton and the police union, accusing them of trying to link the protests to the officers’ shootings as a way of silencing the demonstrations.

Is de Blasio denying first amendment rights?  It seems that he was just urging people to exercise some good taste and decency.  By the same token, the union bosses need to tone down their rhetoric by a lot.  Accusing de Blasio of having blood on his hands is also ridiculous and outrageous.

There seem to be no winners and a lot of losers in this entire sad episode.  Those who were out chanting for dead cops have no class or no common sense.  There is always going to be some nut who has to go overboard.  The union folks who are making inflammatory remarks about the mayor are also incendiary.  Emotions are running high.  Cops are having to watch their own backs and their buddies’ backs.  The union people are irresponsible if they ramp things up any more.

The protestors have gone on too long.  I expect they probably have lost sight of their own goals.   DeBlasio was demeaning to his officers.  They should have his full support.   They felt they did not.

My sympathy goes to the families of the fallen and to the 30,000 member police force of New York City.  They have a CEO who equivocated and cast a pall of uncertainty on his police force.   To make matters worse, they must go out every day on the job and face an angry cop-hating crowd of people.   They walk a thin line.  On the one side, they must worry about every action or reaction being labeled police brutality.  On the other side, not responding could cost them their lives.  There seems to be no safety net.

Officers Ramos and Liu were simply eating lunch off duty.   They were killed by a cop hater with no warning.  How many other cop haters are out there?  We have no way of knowing but we certainly don’t need the flames of indignation to be fanned by a gang of protestors.  Not at this time.  Let’s let New York bury their dead with honor, in great pomp and circumstance, without the cacophony of protestors.

69 Thoughts to “NY mayor urges protests to stop until after funerals”

  1. Lyssa

    I’m wondering who’s in charge in NYC?

  2. Obviously not the mayor. He disses the cops and “suggests” to the protesters. I think they are ignoring him…both the cops and the protesters.

  3. Steve Thomas

    Moon-howler :Obviously not the mayor. He disses the cops and “suggests” to the protesters. I think they are ignoring him…both the cops and the protesters.

    I agree. The mayor has become irrelevant. In order for a leader to accomplish a goal or task, they need two things: the Will, and the Means. He has neither.

  4. Cargosquid

    I wonder why he didn’t stop with “NY mayor urges protests to stop”

    Does he WANT the protests to continue?

  5. Steve Thomas

    Cargosquid :I wonder why he didn’t stop with “NY mayor urges protests to stop”
    Does he WANT the protests to continue?

    I doubt he wants unrest in his city. He made the mistake of pandering to his base a bit to strongly, and didn’t understand the calculus of the situation. Things like this are only the beginning:
    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/cuny-professor-eric-linsker-arrested-over-protest-attack-on-cops/

    What the story doesn’t say is this was a municipal garbage can, made of steel, weighing 50 lbs. You drop a 50lb anything on someone, you will kill or injure them. Understandably, the Police took issue with this, and tried to arrest him, only to be kicked, slapped, and punched by other “educators”. Note, the backpack the suspect had contained hammers. Now why would someone bring a hammer to a protest? Planning on building homes for the homeless? I doubt it. These are di Blasio’s people. They elected him. He panders to them.

    1. After reading the cbs article, if there were 30,000 protesters out there I would call out the national guard, just to be on the safe side. That is way too many angry people. Obviously not all of them were acting peacefully. All it takes is a few jerks to have an uncontrollable situation.

  6. Steve Thomas

    Moon-howler :After reading the cbs article, if there were 30,000 protesters out there I would call out the national guard, just to be on the safe side. That is way too many angry people. Obviously not all of them were acting peacefully. All it takes is a few jerks to have an uncontrollable situation.

    All it took was one pissed-off Serbian to start WWI.

    1. Just because I have been agreeing a lot with you and Cargo doesn’t mean I am crossing over to the dark side, 👿

  7. Steve Thomas

    Moon-howler :Just because I have been agreeing a lot with you and Cargo doesn’t mean I am crossing over to the dark side,

    I think it means you recognize that on particular issues, we hold the correct position.

    1. I just had to check my position with our housemate who told me I hadn’t crossed over. He said what I just posted was self defense and that is a basic right.

      You left off my 👿 emoticon.

    2. When you said “we hold the correct position” did you mean you and me or you and Cargo?

      Just asking…. 😈

  8. middleman

    I’m glad everyone is having a warm fuzzy kum-ba-yah moment and all, but I have to point out the obvious:

    1. All the officers that turned their back on the Mayor need to quit. If they feel this strongly about not being able to support their civilian superiors- who are elected by the people- they obviously need to leave. The mayor- and his policies- were endorsed by the voters. I have no respect for this kind of playing to the camera by anyone, ESPECIALLY the police.

    2. The killing of the two officers had absolutely nothing to do with the protests or the majority of the protesters. This is a deranged individual who used the controversy for an excuse to kill.

    3. The vast majority of protestors are peaceful and want police policy and training changes- not violence.

    4. Giuliani is an idiot. He’s trying to take advantage of this tragedy (with lies!) to attack others who disagree with him. Predictable, but disgusting.

    5. The police reaction to de Blasio’s comments SHOULD be frightening to average citizens. De Blasio’s moves to change the “stop and frisk” policy and his comments on discussing police conduct with his half-black son are valid and should have been cues for police leaders to work with him to reform their ranks. Instead, they’re using a tragedy to try to stifle any attempt to address these problems.

    Look, most police officers are dedicated public servants, but there are some changes that need to be made, mostly to the police leadership mindset. We’ve gotten away from the “community policing” model and into a militarized “us vs them” mentality that can result in the kind of things we’re seeing now regarding law enforcement overreach. The police leaders are digging in to try to avoid change. If we allow the police to run the government, I don’t think any of you will like the result.

    1. Welcome to our Christmas luv-fest. ho ho ho.

      1. I don’t like that they did it because of the chain of command. I understand how they feel. We can’t always act on our feelings. He was not as supportive of his police force as he should have been.

      2. I disagree. The very words of the shooter referenced Michael Brown and Eric. Its all interrelated. The protesters, or at least a large group of them were chanting “what do we want? Dead cops”. Yea, it has a lot to do with the death of those policemen. It doesn’t take much to set off a crazy.
      3. Agreed.
      4. Agreed
      5. That wasn’t all he did publically. While I am at it, I also think the union bosses were deplorable.

      9-11 has helped militarize the police departments. They are the first line of defense if there is a terrorist (foreign or domestic) attack. Mobs also create a situation that creates militarized police situations.

  9. Cato the Elder

    middleman :
    I’m glad everyone is having a warm fuzzy kum-ba-yah moment and all, but I have to point out the obvious:

    2. The killing of the two officers had absolutely nothing to do with the protests or the majority of the protesters. This is a deranged individual who used the controversy for an excuse to kill.

    Horseshit. This is a direct result of your feeding 6 years of propaganda to your already deranged base about how unfair, unjust, racist and bigoted everything is. America sucks, and police randomly kill people just for being black. The rhetoric of the despicable American left directly resulted in the assassination of two police officers, I hope you guys are happy now.

    Nut up and own it.

  10. Cargosquid

    @Moon-howler
    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

  11. Cargosquid

    @Cato the Elder
    I’m just looking at this a Democrat internecine fight in the “holier than thou” NYC.

    Got a HUGE bag of popcorn.

  12. Steve Thomas

    Most chief executives, mayors, governors, presidents, face some crisis that defines their administration. Rudy had 9/11. Nagin had Katrina. Emanuel had the teacher’s strike.di Blasio has this. I don’t see him ever fully recovering from this, being caught between the protesters and the police. It is a zero sum game, and both groups are inclined to carry grudges. I think he’s done as an effective leader, and now that there are dead cops involved, he’s lost the support of NYPD forever. If he tries to mend fences, the protesters will resent it. And the animosity is spreading. I just read a report of 2 NYPD 911 dispatchers getting into a verbal altercation with 2 NYFD dispatchers. The NYPD dispatchers were overheard saying the 2 cops deserved to die. The NYFD dispatchers objected. There is audio since everything said in a dispatch is recorded. The press will FOIA it, and so it goes.

    1. Why are cops wishing other cops are dead? Is this a racial thing?

  13. blue

    Does anyone here really believe that our national race hustling leaders are NOT responsible for – really – everything from Ferguson to NYC ?

    My sense is that they have made it OK to ignore the facts, ramp up the rhetoric and call it peaceful protest and then walk away from the consequences of their actions. I get why Obama and Holder have done it- to divert everyones attention from their conga line of failures and decite. I get why Sharpton has stuck his nose into it, he’s cashing in and preventing anybody from really pursuing his tax fraud and its working. I get why the CBC and deBlasio put their bloody hands up – its about their base votes, but I do not get why they coud not bring themselves to condem the NYCPD killings without feeling compelled – in the same sentence – to again support the protesters– who continue to use thugs resisting arrest as a cause celeb.

  14. Steve Thomas

    @blue
    “Does anyone here really believe that our national race hustling leaders are NOT responsible for – really – everything from Ferguson to NYC ?”

    Blue, when all you own is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Those who traffic in “victimhood” can never own a problem of their own making. That would take personal responsibility. No, it’s always someone else’s fault, and when they can’t use a name, they create a strawman. They’d rather watch it burn, than admit they lit the match, and will blame you as you grab a bucket.

    Look at the whole “Occupy” movement. Nasty scumbags, societal leeches, drug-abusers, “intellectuals”, etc. Leaders on the Left were so supportive of their “Right to protest”. Rape tents. Defecating on police cars. Storming area businesses and throwing piss and excrement around. No public condemnation. Leaders holding back law enforcement, even when actual crimes were being committed. Massive piles of trash and human waste leaving the sites biohazards. Rat infestations. Tremendous clean-up costs for the tax payers. None of these “Leaders” were held to account. The “Mother” of the movement is now a presidential contender.

    The “knock-out game”. Remember that?

    Same in Ferguson. Same in NY, DC, LA, Oakland, etc. More protests driven by the Left, supported by “Leaders” on the Left, pandering, using race, gender, economic divisions and rhetoric.. using the deaths of two criminals as justification for more crime. Theft. Assault. Arson…and now murder. But these “Leaders” won’t own it. Nope, they’ll parse, deflect, dodge, duck, dip, dribble, and dodge.

    Storm’s coming. Time to grab an umbrella.

    1. I think that is an unfair characterization of Elizabeth Warren. If you look at the intent of OCCUPY, it was a very conservative objective–to hold banks and financial institutions accountable for the havoc they have wreaked on this country. I don’t recall Warren being out there leading the pack. the idea that the bankers got fatter and richer is repugnant. I would think that everyone agreed with that premise.

  15. middleman

    Cato the Elder :

    middleman :
    I’m glad everyone is having a warm fuzzy kum-ba-yah moment and all, but I have to point out the obvious:
    2. The killing of the two officers had absolutely nothing to do with the protests or the majority of the protesters. This is a deranged individual who used the controversy for an excuse to kill.

    Horseshit. This is a direct result of your feeding 6 years of propaganda to your already deranged base about how unfair, unjust, racist and bigoted everything is. America sucks, and police randomly kill people just for being black. The rhetoric of the despicable American left directly resulted in the assassination of two police officers, I hope you guys are happy now.
    Nut up and own it.

    Cato, reactions like yours is exactly the reason we haven’t come together to solve this issue. Angry, vulgar pot shots may make you feel better but does nothing to advance understanding or wisdom.

    Merry Christmas!!

  16. Steve Thomas

    Moon-howler :I think that is an unfair characterization of Elizabeth Warren. If you look at the intent of OCCUPY, it was a very conservative objective–to hold banks and financial institutions accountable for the havoc they have wreaked on this country. I don’t recall Warren being out there leading the pack. the idea that the bankers got fatter and richer is repugnant. I would think that everyone agreed with that premise.

    Unfair? Moon, Warren claimed the title, and wore it like a badge of honor:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/25/elizabeth-warren-occupy-wall-street_n_1030974.html

    And when you claim to have “created” the movement, you own it, for better or worse.

    1. I do approve of holding banks responsible for careless banking practices. There were no financial losers after 2008. No one was held accountable.

    2. Well, you got me on that one. Here’s the problem, as I see it. I do agree with the intellectual movement. I really don’t think some of the followers are representative of the intellectual end of the movement. There were just too many weirdos out there. Who has time to do stuff like that on a daily basis.

      I see nothing liberal about banks acting responsibly, however.

      Let’s face it. The financial crash was a wake up call and little was done to stave off repeat financial crises.

  17. Steve Thomas

    Moon-howler :I do approve of holding banks responsible for careless banking practices. There were no financial losers after 2008. No one was held accountable.

    Nothing but agreement with you on this, but holding the banks accountable is only part of the solution. What about Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae? What about Barney Frank? What about HUD using the Community Reinvestment Act of 1977 to force the banks to write bad loans. There was active participation by elements of the Federal Government, which directly contributed to the whole mess. So, if we’re seeking justice, let’s not stop with the banks.

    As to banks being held accountable, you may have missed the massive fines and settlements BofA, JP Morgan, et al have been forced to shell out in the last few years in the on-going suits HUD brought against the banks. Not saying it’s equal compensation for the widespread misery, but what sanctions have those from Freddie and Fannie been subjected to? None. Barney Frank’s boyfriend, and the rest of the politically appointed board at Fannie and Freddie got big fat paychecks and bonuses, while the helped run the ship aground.

    1. Individuals weren’t held accountable and they got richer. That bothers me.

  18. Steve Thomas

    @Moon-howler
    “Let’s face it. The financial crash was a wake up call and little was done to stave off repeat financial crises.”

    True, but there is a lot more to it than “banks behaving badly”. If we are going to be “just”, let us begin by being “honest”. I think a bunch of folks should have gone to jail…bankers, political appointees, and a couple of senators and congressmen, especially one whose boyfriend received direct financial benefit from the mess.

  19. middleman

    @blue
    “Does anyone here really believe that our national race hustling leaders are NOT responsible for – really – everything from Ferguson to NYC ?”

    Yeah, that’s right- civil rights leaders and the president caused the police to strangle a guy in NYC. They caused the police to kill a 12 year old with a BB gun. Obama causes cops to pull over minorities for “driving while black” hassles. They’re responsible for the unequal drug sentences. All their fault. And on and on. If it wasn’t for Obama and the civil rights leaders, minorities wouldn’t even think any of this was a problem.

    “I get why Obama and Holder have done it- to divert everyones attention from their conga line of failures and decite.”

    Again, this is obvious. Obama needs to divert attention from the greatest American job growth since the late 1990’s. From the fastest growing economy in the world. From the most oil and gas production ever and the lowest gas prices in years. From the millions of people who can enjoy Christmas knowing they have health insurance, many for the first time. From the under control Ebola outbreak. From Putin and Iran and Venezuela being near the breaking point. From the 15 billion TARP profit. From the thriving, sales record-setting American auto industry.

    Yeah, Blue, there’s a lot there to run from…

    1. Snicker. I can remember the same mantle being hung from Clinton’s neck.

      I always found it strange that Obama was supposed to come in and save us from the depression/recession the first 2 weeks he was in office.

  20. Wolve

    Obama is to be commended for “the most oil production and gas production ever” and “the lowest gas prices in years”? Just how did he accomplish that?

    1. Who did Jimmy Carter get blamed for the opposite? Same reason.

  21. blue

    @middleman

    Are you drunk? Seriously, your upside down fantasy world is the problem. Reading helps.

  22. Wolve

    To think that, less than two months ago, a big portion of the voting public told Obama and the Democrats to stuff it because they felt the country was going in the wrong direction on both the domestic and foreign affairs fronts. Repubs won, Dems lost — to sort of steal a quip from a prominent politico.

    1. I wouldn’t crow too loudly. They told him to stuff it in 2010 and then re-elected him in 2012. Go figure. The masses are asses or at least inconsistent.

      I sure wouldn’t count on the status quo in 2016 without some major changes in the GOP platform. Angry people show up at mid term more than non angry people, regardless of why they are angry.

  23. Wolve

    Nice. Some jackass spray painted anti-police graffiti on a Sterling utility box. Hopefully just some stupid juveniles on Christmas break.

  24. Wolve

    Moon-howler :
    Who did Jimmy Carter get blamed for the opposite? Same reason.

    He also had an entire US embassy being held hostage by a bunch of Islamic radicals and a hollowed out military that tried a rescue mission which went fatally awry.

    1. I don’t think the mission failed because of anything being “hollowed” out. It failed because it failed. Bush had an entire city come down on his watch. nearly 4000 people died if you count the clean up crews that are now dropping like flies from toxic related diseases.

      It seems counter-productive to do a lot of finger pointing at this point. What’s done is done. No crystal ball is handed down.

    2. Do you know Ed from other blogs?

  25. Wolve

    Moon-howler :
    I wouldn’t crow too loudly. They told him to stuff it in 2010 and then re-elected him in 2012. Go figure. The masses are asses or at least inconsistent.
    I sure wouldn’t count on the status quo in 2016 without some major changes in the GOP platform. Angry people show up at mid term more than non angry people, regardless of why they are angry.

    “The masses are asses…”?!!!! O.K., Professor Gruber, what have you done with Moon?

    1. It must be the season…..

  26. Wolve

    Moon-howler :
    I don’t think the mission failed because of anything being “hollowed” out. It failed because it failed. Bush had an entire city come down on his watch. nearly 4000 people died if you count the clean up crews that are now dropping like flies from toxic related diseases.
    It seems counter-productive to do a lot of finger pointing at this point. What’s done is done. No crystal ball is handed down.

    Your statement about Carter is only reflexive opinion without knowledge. But that is all you will get from me.

    As for 9/11, I have stated repeatedly that Slick Willie and his liberal buds screwed over the counter-terrorist services to a point of much lesser effectiveness. That Bush inheritance showed tragically on 9/11. But how do you convince those who are always uber-enamoured of the Clinton male “magnetism”? Did you catch the recent pic of Willie grabbing the arms of that well-endowed young lady, daughter of an NYC millionaire and now the ex-wife of Ike’s grandson? You can see the old wandering look in Willie’s eye, sort of like an East Coast Hugh Hefner.

    1. NO, I didn’t see it. Bush had time to ramp things up to his satisfaction. It happened on his watch. (not that I personally think that matters)

  27. Wolve

    Moon-howler :
    Do you know Ed from other blogs?

    Yes. As I said, he is a homeboy.

  28. Wolve

    Moon-howler :
    NO, I didn’t see it. Bush had time to ramp things up to his satisfaction. It happened on his watch. (not that I personally think that matters)

    It did matter. There were less than eight months between the inauguration and 9/11 to “ramp things up to his satisfaction.” You also have to take into account that, because of the disputed presidential election, Bush II had a much shorter time than most presidents to choose, process, and establish his entire administration. Surely you must have noticed the huge scramble after 9/11 to revise and improve the national counter-terrorism apparatus. That came after eight years of extremely damaging policies under Clinton, brought on by his liberal cronies who knew nothing about clandestine operations and liaisons. It was a major rebuild, including the knocking down of Jamie G’s infamous “wall.” Clinton may be admired by some, but the fellow did some bad things which had consequences.

  29. middleman

    HOWDY, everyone- I haven’t had a chance to look in for awhile.

    blue :
    @middleman
    Are you drunk? Seriously, your upside down fantasy world is the problem. Reading helps.

    Exactly what would you dispute in my “upside down fantasy world?” Job growth, economic growth, oil production, gas prices, TARP profits, millions with new healthcare, record-setting American auto industry- these are all easily verifiable. Just not on FOX.

    Well, Wolve, Obama was sure as hell blamed by the GOP when gas prices were high, so he MUST get the credit when they’re down, right? Sauce for the goose and sauce for the gander and all that…
    Wolve :
    Obama is to be commended for “the most oil production and gas production ever” and “the lowest gas prices in years”? Just how did he accomplish that?

  30. middleman

    Well, THAT went well! The answer to Wolve’s quote came out ABOVE it! I am SO good with technology!!!

  31. Wolve

    Nah, Middleman. You don’t get credit from me for something you didn’t do. No blame either if you didn’t have a hand in it somehow, either openly or beneath the table or as a cheerleader. That said, however, I posit that neither of the parties refuses to collect the votes of those who do toss credit and blame around loosely.

  32. middleman

    I left out protecting the civil rights of women and the LGBT community and ending “don’t ask, don’t tell.” Not to mention important new greenhouse gas reduction policies such as increased vehicle fuel economy standards and new power plant rules. Oh, and a historic agreement with China on greenhouse gases and a strategy with ISIS that is starting to work.

    I certainly acknowledge that Obama has seemed lost and in over his head at times (ok- a lot!), but he’s certainly done some good. Certainly enough good that there’s no need to start a race war to divert attention, as Blue posits above.

  33. Wolve

    If I were you, I would put a hold on that business about China and greenhouse gases and on the war front with ISIS. As for the power plant rules, I will give him some credit where credit is owed: He is turning West Virginia over to the Repubs.

  34. middleman

    If W.Va. IS going to the R’s (I’m actually pretty sure it was already there) it’s because uninformed people believe the idiotic Republican dogma that ANY environmental protections kill industry, which is obviously ridiculous. The only reason that coal is the cheapest fuel is because big coal avoids most responsibility for the damage done by their industry. Politics is politics, but protecting our air and water SHOULD be (and used to be) a bi-partisan endeavor. I’m pretty sure Republicans breathe just like Democrats.

    Anyone who reads at all broadly knows that low natural gas prices are much more responsible for coal power plant and mine closings than ANY regulations.

    1. People in West Virginia ought to be believers. Look at how many have died of coal mining related illnesses as well as poisoned water, etc.

  35. Wolve

    Uh huh –“uninformed.” Tell that to the voters in West Virginia, Kentucky, and Southeastern Ohio. I encourage the Dem liberals to keep up that mantra about the voters being ignorant. Broadcast it far and wide. TV. Radio. Internet. Stump speeches. Louder! Louder! LOUDER!!

    We can call it the Gruber Theory.

  36. Wolve

    Gas prices are low to be sure. The contract wells on our Midwest farm are pumping away and produce peanuts in profit. Might as well cap all of them.

  37. Wolve

    Night and day.

    I give you Berkeley, Missouri, a small town of 9000 in the North County of St. Louis County. It is adjacent to the St. Louis airport and also right next to the Ferguson, Missouri, of Wilson-Brown notoriety. According to the the 2010 census, Berkeley is 81.8% Black.

    Just recently a White officer from the Berkeley Police Department answered a call about a possible larceny at a local gas station-convenience mart. In so doing, he shot and killed a young Black male who was allegedly pointing a gun at the officer. The officer claimed the dead man had the gun. A video is said to verify that, although the video, in my opinion, is not very conclusive. The police say that they have the gun and that witnesses have confirmed the officer’s account.

    Nevertheless, a crowd of protesters formed at the death site and started to fight with police officers, including injuring some of the officers with thrown bricks and firecrackers. A convenience store across the street was broken into and set afire, although the fire was put out quickly. The arsonist turned out to be a young Black male who has been a prominent leader in the Ferguson protests. He confessed to the arson.

    Both Theodore Hoskins, the Mayor of Berkeley, and Frank McCall, the Berkeley Chief of Police, have defended the police officer and stated that the dead man indeed had a gun which he pointed at the officer before being shot. In fact, the Mayor has said that he believes the police officer should go right back to work for the town police force.

    The difference? Both Hoskins, the Mayor of Berkeley, and McCall, the Berkeley Chief of Police, are Black. I haven’t heard that Al Sharpton is headed to Berkeley to lead another street effort against a White police officer. Good.

  38. middleman

    Here’s ANOTHER feather for Obama’s cap: The frequently denigrated GOP symbol for misguided progressive wastefulness, “the stimulus package,” is bearing fruit! Two-thirds of the projects that received loans are successful and the program is on track to make a 6 billion dollar profit! It has helped provide 35,000 jobs so far! Even Republicans in Kansas are big fans now, since a cellulosic ethanol refinery was built there using stimulus funds.

    Imagine what would happen if we actually subsidized clean energy at the same level as coal, oil and gas. The technology would advance at a rate similar to the space program in the 1960’s, and we wouldn’t be arguing about lost coal jobs- they’d be replaced by sustainable energy jobs.

  39. Wolve

    I hear ethanol has a bad rep now?

  40. Wolve

    I wouldn’t put “Republicans in Kansas” and “big fans” of anything related to Obama in the same sentence.

  41. middleman

    Sam Brownback Pat Roberts and all the R’s who got jobs are apparently big fans: http://www.abengoa.com/web/en/noticias_y_publicaciones/noticias/historico/2014/10_octubre/abg_20141017.html

    Not all ethanol is created equal, Wolve. The reason the new plant in Kansas is important is that it is cellulosic ethanol- made from non-edible crop residues that don’t compete with food or feed grain. The grain ethanol that’s mostly used now resulted in a huge windfall for Archer Daniels Midland and the other mega-farmers, and that’s why it’s been so hard to change direction.

  42. Ed Myers

    Alcohol from corn makes sense if you are feeding corn to cows anyway. You take the sugar from corn to make alcohol. The protein residue (brewery gains) is then feed to cows. You give the cows extra cellulose (alfalfa) to make up the energy deficit because they can convert cellulose to sugar. The low level heat needed to distill the alcohol can come from a conventional power plant that has waste heat at about the right temperature. Alcohol from cornstalks is better but alcohol from corn isn’t horrible if you look at the entire system. You make the cows convert cellulose to sugar instead of doing it with enzymes.

  43. middleman

    Ed, corn methanol competes with and therefore affects the price of the food crop. The process of growing corn is also water-intensive, which switch grass, etc. is not. And cows produce a lot of methane that’s wasted.

  44. middleman

    Actually, cows are a major source of atmospheric methane, which is a significant greenhouse gas.

  45. Ed Myers

    I disagree that ethanol changes the quantity of corn needed in the total system. It increases the need for alfalfa but that doesn’t affect the availability of food. I agree that ethanol ramp-up was a market disrupter that increased corn prices due to speculation, but it should not have a long-term impact on food prices. I agree on methane and wish that farmers would have manure handling systems that recovered and used the gas. Actually I wish we all were vegetarians so we didn’t need so many belching and pooping cows.

  46. Ed Myers

    Did the p–p word put me into moderation?

    1. Yes. Forgive my idiosyncracies. I took you out. I have several words I hate.

  47. middleman

    Ed, according to one study: “Averaging across 2006–2009, subsidies contributed an average of $0.14 per bushel (8%) to the increase in corn prices. Market-based ethanol expansion contributed an average of $0.45 per bushel, or about 27% of the total increase. Together, subsidies plus market-driven expansion of ethanol caused about 36% of the increase in corn prices in 2006 to 2009 relative to 2004 levels.”

    Here’s the link to the study quoted from: http://www.card.iastate.edu/policy_briefs/display.aspx?id=1155

  48. middleman

    Ed, to control bovine methane, farmers would need a “manure handling system” that consists of a methane collection device attached to the cow’s rear end, which would obviously need to be able to separate semi-solids from vapor.

    Since that system would be fairly problematic, it’s probably better that we don’t create the methane in the first place…

    1. I will not contribute to THIS conversation. LOL. You guys sort out all the bullsh!t and let me know what you decide.

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