The Prince William County electoral board, wary of the heated atmosphere of the coming Election Day, considered seeking a one-day ban on weapons at polling places located on private property but was rebuked by a gun-friendly state legislator.
Late last week, Del. Robert G. Marshall (R-Prince William) sent a letter to the board pointing out that it has no power to ban guns from polling places except for schools and courthouses, where weapons are prohibited by state law.
Election officers across the state say they are worried about conflicts at the polls after Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump urged his supporters to “watch” others at the voting booths, while also asserting that the election is “rigged.”
So go to your place and vote, and then go pick some other place, and go sit there with your friends and make sure it’s on the up and up,” Trump said at a recent rally in Michigan. “Because you know what? That’s a big, big problem in this country, and nobody wants to talk about it. Nobody has the guts to talk about it. So go and watch these polling places.”
Virginia’s election officials have been discussing on their private email list the possibility of intimidation or violence Nov. 8 and talking about what to do about unruly observers.
State law makes it a criminal offense to use a weapon to “intimidate, hinder or interfere” with a voter.
Several officials said that unless someone is causing a disturbance, that person should be left alone. If there’s a problem and the gun owner refuses to comply with requests, election officials should call authorities, wrote Russ Boraas, secretary of the Hanover County Electoral Board.
Oh dear God! Keep your guns at home on election day. Leave them in the car. Don’t bring them into the polling place. What is the point of bringing a gun to the polls?
In the first place, there is little voting fraud in this country. Is there none? No. So what is a gun toter to do? Shoot someone in the polls they think is cheating?
Good for the Prince William County election board for seeking a one time ban, given the not-so-veiled threats issued from Trump himself.
I voted absentee by mail. I don’t want to be anywhere near a polling place with this latest threat.
This isn’t just a “crazy Trumpster” issue. The Black Panters have “patrolled” polling places armed (RNC counter-protests, as well). It’s ugly. But illegal?
I don’t agree on the ban, as this is a slippery slope. If 2A is dispensable, what about 1A? Or 4A? Should I be subject to unreasonable search just because it’s a special event or “one-time?” I don’t think so. Should the no-campaigning zones be extended because some people feel uncomfortable? Again, don’t think so. And as Marshall points out, there’s no provision for doing so under state law. County officials don’t get a dispensation from following the law just because they think it’s a good idea.
I do agree with your question and recommendation. I don’t see the use of a firearm in a polling place even if permitted, and it seems decent gesture for the legal carrier to put it aside. But that’s not my call to make. It WOULD make a difference if the venue decided to say “leave arms behind” … OC or CC isn’t a universal right. I can tell guests to my property, “Leave it in the car.” So can other private property owners.
1A is absolutely affected. You can’t go within 4o feet or so of the actual polling room with any literature nor can you politicize in that area. Free speech absolutely …isn’t free there.
I just don’t know why someone feels the need to go in armed. It makes no sense. If cc, then we don’t know about it. No harm, no foul.
Manassas City will have an officer or deputy at each polling place on Nov. 8. This is because of Homeland Security concerns, not “poll watching” by Trump people. However, all polls in Manassas are located at schools so anyone wanting to exercise his or her 2nd Amendment rights will have to take it up with the officer or deputy on duty.
That’s an excellent idea. I wish PWC would do the same thing.
I’ve already voted, thank God. Maybe more people can vote early to avoid disruptions.
A preemptive ban would be dangerous because it would provoke the lunatic fringe that support Trump and Marshall. But the rest of us can’t let a small band of thugs and bullies intimidate us. Thankfully, they are few in number and most voters of all persuasions are law-abiding citizens.
The courts have some safety standards for issuing these permits, so the majority of open and concealed carry permit holders should be trustworthy and not cause problems.
This is a desperation tactic and most likely a bluff. On the other hand, it would be prudent for the police in all jurisdictions to follow Manassas’ example, just in case.
@Robin Hood
Ah, Robin Hood…. Marshall’s been a friend to many in Prince William that find the General Assembly to be bought and paid for. His work opposing the Dominion Power fiasco (and related SCC issues) is commendable, and cuts against the partisan grain. And that’s against the backdrop of other prominent locals do as little as they can to look “helpful” (Hugo), or some who have done nothing at all (Bell). The man is idiosyncratic, but does not deserve to be lumped with Trump.
Marshall’s substantive point was correct: there’s nothing in state law that permits the type of regulation on private property that PWC officials were considering (at least discussing). So not only would a pre-emptive ban be dangerous rhetorically, it would also be illegal. Despite what we see at all levels – and from both parties – I for one would prefer us to be a nation that hews to the tradition of being governed by laws versus simply the will of persons.
And your other points are correct. It’s a sad bluff, and likely to be ignored by the vast majority of law-abiding citizens whether they carry or not, and wherever they fall on the political spectrum.
@Robin Hood
@ Robin Hood: while I agree that most people holding Concealed Handgun Permits are responsible and not a risk to the community, it isn’t because “the courts have some safety standards for issuing these permits,” at least not in Virginia. Virtually anyone can get a permit by plunking down $20 to take a 20 minute on-line “gun safety course”, answering some incredibly simple True/False or Multiple Guess questions, getting 15 out of 20 questions right, printing out a certificate, going down to the Courthouse and filling out a form that avers that you don’t have a criminal conviction or a restraining order out on you, plunking down another $45-$50 bucks and waiting for your little cardboard CHP in the mail. It’s an utter joke. You’re probably right to draw comfort from the general arithmetic idea that most people carrying deadly weapons are law-abiding and responsible, but that’s not because of any protection the Commonwealth provides you. Beyond the CHP issue, in Virginia one doesn’t need training, skill, temperament, physical well-being, mental health, or a permit to carry openly, a la the citizen in Moon’s graphic for this post.
Hi Scout! Where have you been? What did you think of the debate?
Everyone else? What think you?
@MoonHowler
I didn’t watch the debate. At my age, I have to be careful about how I spend the finite earthly time left to me. To sit for nearly two hours in front of a screen watching something that would only raise my blood pressure and cause me to despair of how juvenile, trivial, and fact-free our political process has become, would not be a rational allocation of my time resources. My thought about this is that Donald Trump lost me irretrievably the day he mocked the disabled NYT reporter and I knew enough about the man right then and there to know that this kind of person can never be President of the greatest democratic Republic in the history of Mankind. At least a hundred times since, he has confirmed that point for me. I cannot wait for this election to be over.
Instead of watching the debate, I did a little work at the kitchen table, memorized part of a Psalm (Some people do crosswords, some Soduko, I try to memorize a poem, a Shakespeare passage or a Bible verse every day – it’s my mind-gymnastics thing) and read a bit from Will and Ariel Durant’s volume on Rousseau and Revolution. I am a better man for these things. Had I watched the debates, I could only be a lesser man this morning.
@MoonHowler
Chris Wallace was more impressive than Trump.
My read: this thing is done. HRC didn’t offer a lot of substance because it’s hers to lose, why take the risk. Clearly well rehearsed. DJT tried, but his answers (particularly on foreign policy) get lost in detail. He was best when he pointed out HRC has been in government for a long time and done has exactly what signature achievement?
DJT weak spots: so much to choose from. “Nasty woman” and “I’ll keep you in suspense” are treasures. It’s true Gore was a bit flip-floppy about conceding in 2000, but that was largely inside the process, versus simply saying “it’s rigged.” Praise for Assad? Bro….
HRC weak points: foundation corruption, and taxes. Pay-for-play is real, and ugly, and will provide scandal-fodder. Taxes… biggest flub here was at the end, promising to lift the social security cap within days of saying “No household making less than $250K will face a tax increase.” This + corruption/power issues generally are her weakest points, and provide the strongest rationale for divided government.
Best comment I saw on social media: pundits take Trump literally but not seriously; public takes Trump seriously but not literally.
Chris Wallace did a superb job, in my opinion. He kept things moving and checked bad behavior as much as possible when having an errant, spoiled child to contend with.
I totally agree about following Manassas City on this one.
I forgot to ask Ivan if kids are in school on this day.
Schools are closed on Nov. 8.
Not an issue in the City, since all Manassas polling places are public schools, and all open or concealed carry is prohibited under state law, the only exception being those possessing a CHP can have a firearm in their vehicle.
Since the county has a mishmash of polling places, a bit more difficult. Still, Delegate Marshall is correct in that neither the county nor the electoral board has the authority to regulate the time/place/manner of carry, beyond that which is listed as a “prohibited place” in the VA code.
As for limiting “free speech” with the “40 ft rule”, this is not an issue. This prohibition is written into the state code. Now, a locality cannot pass an ordinance prohibiting electioneering at a distance greater than 40ft. This would exceed their authority, and would be automatically preempted.
“Poll Watching” is perfectly legal and permitted under the VA election law. Both parties do this, and I will note that in 2008 and 2012, the Democrats had a much better local poll-watching operation. They had plenty of hired & volunteer help outside the polls to contact voters as they entered. This freed their local folks to poll-watch inside. They typically had 2-3 watchers inside, regularly relieved shifts. The local MGOP had to man both the inside and the outside, so inside poll watching was thin. If there was a poll watcher, we had 1, and they were only relieved for short bio-breaks during the day.
IMHO it would be better if the PWC Electoral Board focused on running a clean, irregularity-free process which would force thinking people to except the results, regardless of who wins, rather than worry about someone with a CHP whipping out their death-blaster 5000 with depleted uranium ammo because some unfortunate poll-watcher squinted at them a bit too closely. If they want uniformed LEO’s there, fine.
Manassas will often have a cruiser parked conspicuously outside, with the officer inside the vehicle. Never saw one enter the polling place (except to vote, of course).
Can’t wait until this election is over, so my fellow citizens can get back to what really matters; NFL (have you seen the ratings?), Pokemon Go!, and following the latest with the Kardashian Clan. I mean that is WAY more important than the fact that they’ve elected someone who should be preparing for a number of judicial proceedings, and we have an accused sexual predator as our first-lady.
I just see no reason to bring a gun in the polling place.
If you are a designated poll watcher, you have to sign up in advance, from what I understand. You can’t just show up and declare yourself one.
That’s my reason for voting absentee. I don’t like bellowing my full name and address in front of people who are not representing Virginia.
Then there is Tony Guiffre who wants to snoop in my absentee balloting. Nothing has happened to him for his egregious behavior.
@MoonHowler
@MoonHowler
Think the idea of LEO at each polling place is a great idea.
@Steve Thomas
As always ST has some inane remark to make at the end of a posting. Thanks once again Steve for being Trump like.
I agree the remark didn’t need to be made.
I liked the Clinton years myself. I can guarantee that I would not like “the Trump years.”
I will say that it will be hard to find a first lady with the class and poise that Michelle Obama possesses. She represents the country well.
@MoonHowler
I liked the Clinton second term, too. Relative peace, big prosperity, reasonable shot at balanced budget (though Clinton tried to run deficits, growth just outpaced him). Generally had more to do with Bill Gates than Bill Clinton, but Clinton did have the wisdom to moderate his policies and support generally free markets. He also had some smart people help avert some disasters.
We’re in a different position now, though. 92/94 dynamics.
@George Harris
Inane? Are you arguing that the person this country is poised to elect did not violate the law regarding classified documents 110 times, as Comey outlined in his press conference? That didn’t happen? I’m just imagining it?
Inane? A media that was willing to accept every accusation of sexual assault against Clarence Thomas, Herman Cain, Bill Cosby, and Donald Trump, refuses to even consider the credibility of 4 women who said “Bill Clinton sexually assaulted me”, whose stories have not changed for two decades, and one of which received a hefty settlement, who also state that Hillary played an active role in intimidating these victims, and yet he gets a pass?
All I wrote was I will be glad when this election season is over. BOTH Hillary and Trump should be huge klaxons blaring that this country is steaming directly for an iceberg, and no course change can avoid the inevitable collision. The American people deserve everything that’s coming…regardless of who wins on election day.
The fact that you accept this, that saddens me. Our founding document, to which you swore an oath to “Protect and Defend” is meaningless, because “We the People” are more concerned with “What can this or that candidate do for me”.
Oh no…it’s not so bad. We’ve elected someone who believes she’s above the law, married to someone who believes he is above the law….
Go ahead. Call me “inane”. Better to be “inane” than insane.
Trump should be redirected to another TV show: The Biggest Loser.
@Steve Thomas
Hmmm…Trump-5 kids, 3 wives, 9 women accusing him of unwanted sexual assault/harassment, 4 or 5 bankruptcies, stiffed unknown numbers of contractors, major importer of goods he has manufactured overseas, importer of cheap Chinese steel, perhaps a tax cheat, innumerable lawsuits all of which ST chooses to ignore. ST & inane comments go hand-in-hand kinda like Trump & Putin.
@George Harris
Soooo… The Clinton’s are pure as snow? Got it…
No ignoring there George (eye roll).
You are aware there is a current FEC investigation into the Clinton campaign for paying activists to ‘get physical’ at trump rallies, right? This site has highlighted these incidents on several occasions. Now we are learning that these violent incidents were bought, paid for and encouraged by the Clinton campaign.
John Wall, there is no proof of your allegations. We try to steer clear of rumor and innuendo here. If you are going to repeat stuff like that, make sure you don’t state it as fact.
@MoonHowler
My comment also Moon.
@John Wall
Didn’t say that John. Just that people who live in glass houses…
No fault for Benghazi despite $7 MILLION investigation, no criminal action regarding e-mails, Clinton Foundation has helped MILLIONS of people, Trump Foundation not so much maybe some charities but no one really knows since no visible tax returns; however, did buy 6 foot painting of Trump and declared illegal in New York. Other than that… ( huge eye roll John)
@George Harris
“Clinton Foundation has helped MILLIONS of people”
Prove it. Less than 10% of donations actually applied towards charitable works. Other 90% used for operations, salaries, etc.
Benghazi? Dereliction of duty is a matter of opinion, so I will concede your point here.
But the emails….how can you point to that and say justice has been served, and claim to be an intellectually honest individual. Especially when Marine General Cartwright and Navy Seaman Kristian Saucier are being prosecuted for far less than what HRC was proven to have done?
What dos any of this hae to do with packing heat at the polls? (not just directed at Steve>)
@MoonHowler
Nothing. The temptation is to conflate or juxtapose issues, and that’s always a judgment call. Trump’s call of observers is semi-related to guns at poll sites, I say that’s a reasonable association.
But “down-thread” it gets less relevant. HClinton corruption, BClinton misogyny, Trump borishness – none actually have to do with the question at hand.
Then again, this is the south (sort of). Digression and meandering conversation is our heritage. So is a southern woman putting her foot down and getting things back on track.
@MoonHowler
“What dos any of this hae to do with packing heat at the polls? (not just directed at Steve>)”
It has nothing to do with your top post. Just responding to an ad hominem attack.
Like I wrote: I’ll be really glad when this election is over, but I doubt it will really be over. One side or the other will not accept the results, and I doubt either candidate has the ability to unify the country. The divisions are too deep.
Better the masses get back to what’s really important to them, like how their fantasy football team is doing.
Arrrggghhhhhh….fantasy football.
My scowl absolutely was not at you.
I will be glad when the election is over also. It is affecting me badly. I feel sick all the time.
There will be no uniting. Not sure anyone could do that.
You can say what you will about the Clinton Foudation but you don’t prove it! Trump’s foundation buys a Florida politician and a six foot portrait and settles lawsuits for him. Nobody has time for this foolishness.
20th century fascists invented the Big Lie propaganda technique. Repeat it until people have heard it so much they believe it. Today we have the Trump campaign and Hillary haters to carry on the tradition.
@Steve Thomas
@Robin Hood
RH… Careful on the Big Lie. The standard story is a lie itself, and it is offensive. Hitler did not recommend it as a strategy – rather, in his autobiography he cited it as a mark of the Jews standard tactic throughout history to undergird his assertion that they are a race, not a religion.
Error compounded with error is neither true, nor good.
Hitler’s contemporaries accused him of practicing the Big Lie, so it is ironic that he condemned the Jews for it.
Doesn’t that remind you of Trump criticizing Clinton for pay to play when he used his foundation for it?
@NorthofNokesville
@Robin Hood
LOL. RH, I want to meet you in person so we can have a real discussion without the glib posturing. I bet you’re an interesting guy (I assume male since you chose Robin and not Maid Marion).
To your point, this election is massively irony-laden. If I were French, that might be enough to redeem it. But I’m not.
Now I’m speechless.
@NorthofNokesville
I propose a Moonhowlings meet up after the election. Anyone interested? We are actually a very civilized crowd.
Whatever you say about Hillary, is nothing compared to the vile racist, misogynistic behavior exhibited by Trump.
Emails vs being a sexual predator? No contest with me.
So if the pornstar he offered $10,000 had accepted, would the Trump Foundation pay for that too?
@MoonHowler
Was she actually a porn star? I was confused.
I guess everyone has the right to say no.
@ ST-here is what Charity Navigator has to say about the Clinton Foundation.
https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=16680
Your allegations are all false. This foundation is an honorable one, highly respected the spends nearly 87% of its funds on programs.
You know as well as I that HRC could do nothing about Benghazi and a $7 MILLION investigation proved that.
As to General Cartwright and Seaman Saucier-HIGHLY classified information.
Yes, I swore to Support and Defend the Constitution, not your definition of it.
Donald Trump is toast and he knows it, which is why he is whining about a rigged system. That will be his excuse, but the facts are that his loss will have been due to his failures as a candidate.