Part 1 will remain on Anti. I hope no one said anything that we can’t live with out. If you said something totally great, cut and paste and bring it on over.
By request this thread is being moved to the top and will address school board budget topics.
I saw that, Lafayette. You should be proud and I know my kids are proud of their alma mater. I am so glad to see Stonewall kids involved in this process. That speaks so highly of the school. Perhaps it is a hint as to why Stonewall Jackson High School was ranked the number one school in the nation in 2001 by Time Magazine.
These students were not informed by the schools of this either. They were following the things at the local level of government that have a direct impact on their day to day lives, and quality of life. Their IB program a couple of years back was ranked 18th in the nation and 33rd in the world. They do have some good things happening at that school. I do find interesting that the students have not commented on the driver’s education portion of the budget. Their numero uno concern is the costs of the tests and transportation for the IB students.
Marinm asked a good question about home schooling. We get money from the state based on the numbers of kids actually in attendance as of Sept 30 each year. More people home schooling would certainly reduce our overcrowding problem but it would also reduce our state aid. On the other hand, we changed policy a few years ago to allow home schoolers to enroll for up to 2 classes per semester at their local HS (or MS, if the course is a credit-bearing one), and for each student who does this, the state sends us state equivalent to 1/4 of a student. It isn’t much but every bit helps. We actually do have a small number (last time I checked, somewhere between 19 and 25) of homeschoolers taking advantage of the partial enrollment option.
Thanks to Madame Howler for posting the budget timeline.
The Gold Medal Hockey Game is tied! 2-2
Go Team USA
Mr. Richardson, you are more than welcome.
Parise….
Thanks for the answer Mr. Richardson. At least it provides a person like myself who would rather homeschool than use the county system an opt-in if there is a class that looks to be challanging.
I believe that on this thread and on the N&M thread (ref http://www2.insidenova.com/isn/news/opinion/columns/article/oppenhagen_column_dont_let_pleas_fall_on_deaf_ears/52930/#comments) speaks to the publics perception that too much money is being spent on the wrong priorities.
I’m on record for saying that current pension obligations don’t increase our national competativeness (3 states offer pension programs) but they do impact our state and county budgets by taking money out of education and putting it into indirect human resource cost.
There is some fat that we can trim in terms of teacher salaries – that ought to be looked at.
Additionally, I respectfully disagree with other posters – we might have to offer ‘minimum’ levels of education for awhile until we can get control of spending priorities. It’ll be a life lesson for these students to understand what happens when revenue is less than expendatures.
Congratuations to the Canadian Team. They just scored in OT for the Gold Medal Game! 3-2
Sorry we lost but it went to a great team.
Marin, there is no fat in teacher’s salaries. They earn every penny they bring home and then some. If you want to attract highly qualified teachers to a competitive metropolitian area, then you don’t go for cheap.
Most people don’t want to home school their kids. For those who do, have at it.
While the pension program might not directly contribute to world class education, it certainly draws many teachers to Virginia who would otherwise go to states who pay more up front.
The numbers don’t support your arguement. The average teacher salary in the nation is $46,796. The average PWC teacher makes $63K. Both numbers don’t reflect benefits which in PWC adds another $25K in compensation.
It’s not about being cheap. Remember, PWCS gets 57% of our counties budget. It’s about spending the money in the way that provides the biggest bang for our buck and does so in a way that recognizes every dollar spent is money taken away from other ‘important’ county priorities.
Now, I don’t *know* this but I’ve gathered from previous posters on the topic of PWCS that ACT and SAT scores have gone down for a number of years. During those years budget dollars went up. So, are we getting a real value for the money we’re providing? Not sure; the county school board isn’t the most forth coming in terms of transparency.
We may have to deal with either a more frugal school system. The reality is resources are limited and whatever program is cut is another that’s funded. The key is where do we get our biggest bang; from buying a hot breakfast or a $3500 electronic blackboard? Those are the priorities that we need to make going forward because we can’t have both.
The fat isn’t likely to be found in the teachers’ salaries but rather in each school’s administration, particularly the middle and high schools. The state mandates an outrageous number of vice-principals and counselors under the auspices of Standards of Quality, but most schools are overstaffed by at least one administrator and one counselor even in view of those standards.
Marinm you are basically comparing apples and oranges. Compare our cost of living to other areas of the country…of course teacher’s salaries are going to be higher that the average teaching salary of say, Mississippi. PW teacher salaries are competitive, but lower than that of other Northern Virginia schools (starting salary is the lowest). We should be comparing the salary of teachers to other professionals in N. Virginia with a Master’s Degree plus additional graduate credits (since most PW teachers have achieved this level of education). Perhaps teachers should be paid babysitter wages Marinm. How about each teacher receive $7.25/child/hour. Would this be fair?
Many schools find they are down administrators. The average middle school is over 1000 kids with 1 principal and 2 assistants, 3 guidance counsellors. Given the administrative responsibilities before, during and after school, I hardly think it is excessive. High schools are at least 2.5 times larger, often more. The legal responsibilities of the administration require that number of people. Those are the times we live in. Do away with bus routes, due process, discipline referrals, 4-5 lunch shifts, special ed, principal’s hearings and state and federally mandated testing then maybe we can talk about fluff and fru fru.
MarinM, reality check time. Who exactly do you think wants to teach the children? Look at the vacancies for speech therapists, home ec, math, science teachers. Why would anyone want to come teach math for science or a paltry $46 k when they can go into private industry as a mathematician or scientist and make a real salary without putting up with the inherent BS of schools.
And when the paper runs out, the teacher buy their own. 🙄
Mom, I am curious about your references to Starbucks. Is that your favorite coffee place?
MarinM, I can’t think of any circumstances where a teacher would make $25k in benefits. Not even close. Where are you getting that from?
I hate it when the public disparages the educational community. Walk a hall in their moccasins. Most people couldn’t do it.
MH,
As requested, my cite is http://www.fcps.edu/fs/budget/wabe/2010.pdf.
Mind you, I have not ‘disparaged’ the educational community but I think it’s fair to say that education must be willing to compromise by reducing it’s cost factor. If 78% of the cost of PWCS comes to us from labor than labor may be the only thing that can be trimmed to get an educational system that works within the constraints of our funding model.
I have to live within my means and the county is finding out maybe for the first time that it has to as well.
To your question I think teachers will always be available. For some it’s a calling. They want to do it. The meager paycheck is not as big as the joy they get from someone saying “I get it now” or the joy of knowing that you reached out and made a difference.
Ever notice that many jobs that we say are ‘important’ you won’t get rich at? Public safety, teaching, military.. It’s not about the paycheck but the feeling of doing something right.
I’m not saying that we have to abuse them in the way that a sweatshop employer does to his employees (note, I use this line as a funny aside because not all sweatshops are a bad thing) but that there IS fat in the system and we may be required to trim it.
Back to your question, I personally would go into private industry even as a teacher. If I had my graduate degree I’d probably teach JC (NVCC as an example). Some people choose to teach at public school. Maybe for the love of children or for the secure job and benefits. I can’t say. But, if Fairfax and all other major regional schools are laying off and trimming fat — why should PWCS be immune?
BTW, that link I provided. Very eye opening.
That was an interesting packet, for sure. Who publishes it? I disagree with some of their figures in the salary and benefits section.
I take exception to any jurisdiction saying that paying FICA is a benefit. It is required by law. Not negotiable. Yes, it costs. It also costs McDonalds, BB&T bank, and the FBI the same percent. It gets political appointees in big trouble if they haven’t paid it on their nannies.
Also, Prince Wm does not pay for family health care coverage. Employees pay about $120 a month on $480 worth of coverage. Even if there were no employee contribution the health coverage would be around $6k, not $10k. I think some of the information in the brochure is inaccurate. It is not $25k at any rate. To everyone, a benefit is something optional, not required.
I doubt if anyone is going to be making less money. There will be a reduction in force. I doubt if anyone in the region will be getting a raise other than the superintendent and his is a built in contract.
Any time it is suggested that a group of people is making too much money it is disparaging. I can’t think of any other group of people who would be targeted as making too much money other than sports stars or lawyers. We don’t say that about doctors, accountants, firemen or cops.
Notice that per pupil spending in PWC was less than any other jurisdiction. Loudoun Co, Manassas City and PWC seem to be the cheapos here. Starting pay is also less.
The bottom line is, you get what you pay for. Probably half the new teachers quit within 3 years. The job is just more than they bargained for. Others move or go into another line of work. Some stay home with their children.
The time is coming very soon when this kind of conversation will not be taking place. Think baby boomer…and think about jobs open to those female baby boomers. Lots of people will soon be retiring and there are not sufficient replacements.
This is an expensive area to educate. Professional teaching salaries need to keep pace with federal governement and industry salaries. I would head down I-81 or go southside if I wanted to pay significantly less for education.
MH, it was done by the Washington Area Boards of Education. From the website:
The Washington Area Boards of Education (WABE), previously known as the Metropolitan Area Boards of Education, was first established in 1971 as a means for area school divisions to share information, study common problems, and enhance cooperation among educational organizations. Each year, the group surveys its members to publish the annual WABE Guide. This guide enables local school systems to learn about each other by reporting comparable information in a standardized format. In addition, the WABE Guide is meant to be used by citizens as a source for consistent, reliable educational data.
The data is provided by the school system POC’s (in the document). So, if you disagree with the $25K in benefits number Mr. Horwath at PWCS may be able to assist.
My company breaks down FICA as a benefit to me as well. In addition, they tell me:
Jury Duty
Military Duty
Short Term Disability
Long Term Disability
Vacation
Sick Days
Holidays
Education Credit
Medical Benefits
Life Insurance
etc.
Because all of these are costs associated to having an employee I can see how they factor into the total compensation of an employee. Workers are expensive and I think a lot of people that have not owned a company or had P&L responsibility don’t realize just how expensive an employee can be.
I will point out an interesting comment you made:
Any time it is suggested that a group of people is making too much money it is disparaging. I can’t think of any other group of people who would be targeted as making too much money other than sports stars or lawyers. We don’t say that about doctors, accountants, firemen or cops.
I point this out because so many times those that make $250K or more are targetted by those that make less to ‘pay their fair share of taxes’. So, I do agree with you that just because people make more money we shouldn’t begrudge them for it. I don’t fault A-Rod for making his money. He has a skill people are willing to pay money to see. That he can commercialize it – is very American.
My condition for a public teachers salary to keep pace with industry is that they should be able to be fired at will at the pleasure of the administration. On a daily basis I can be terminated. That’s factored into my wage. Teachers are protected (for the most part) by a contract.
Salaries can’t be off the table to reduce costs. It has to be on it with salaries being close to 80% of the cost of the school budget.
My orginal long winded response got lost so I’ll trim it down some. 🙂
The URL for the packet is on the Fairfax County Public Schools site. From the website about WABE:
The Washington Area Boards of Education (WABE), previously known as the Metropolitan Area Boards of Education, was first established in 1971 as a means for area school divisions to share information, study common problems, and enhance cooperation among educational organizations. Each year, the group surveys its members to publish the annual WABE Guide. This guide enables local school systems to learn about each other by reporting comparable information in a standardized format. In addition, the WABE Guide is meant to be used by citizens as a source for consistent, reliable educational data.
So, the numbers come direct from each school system. I would tend to believe that number since it’s self reported and because this packet is used to justify more budget dollars.
Like you, I agree that we can’t just look at the top of the stack and only focus our attention on reducing those salaries. I believe the easiest thing to do would be to cut salary/benefits by 10-15%.
To your statement about salaries being reflective of industry I have two responses. One, I can be fired any day for any reason without notice or cause. Can the same be said about a school employee? Secondly, I’m paid what the market can handle. If the market drops, my salary drops. If the market picks up, my salary may go up. Can the same be said about a school employee?
Simply put, we can’t afford the level of education we have now. This and the following years we may only be able to provide a quality education vice a great one. But, we’re still WAY above offering just a minimum.
Wait. What? Pennington and Porter will now start at 7 AM? That means specialty bus p/u at around 6:15 AM in mid-county. (I’m basing that assumption on the specialty bus transportation p/u time for my kids when they were attending Stonewall Jackson HS).
Are we really expecting elementary school kids to get up that early?
That’s ridiculous.
May I suggest revisiting the idea of ending middle school sports programs — replacing them with an intramural program? Supt. Walts floated that idea last year, and quickly pulled back on it, but it might be time to rethink.
Kids who make the teams in middle school are typically the kids who’ve been playing for years, frequently on the elite travel teams. They can continue that, and then move up to high school varsity sports. An intramural program will give more kids the opportunity to play (important given the emphasis on wellness in PWCS PE curriculum, while saving lots of money.
That can be used to retain specialty school transportation, for instance.
@Don Richardson
I agree, Casual. While I think the athletic teams in middle school are important, especially since they are used to motivate many males, that is a cut that can be made in tough times. If the focus is on why schools exist, and I think we are getting to that point, then it is reasonable to expect middle school sports to go or at least be self supporting. If you keep them intramural, then I can see 2 sets of uniforms and still having to have coaching personnel.
Marinm, you are sure willing to do away with a lot of other people’s jobs. I don’t know why you think school personnel can’t be fired. That is a big myth. Non-continuing contract people can be fired at will. It is a little tougher with a continuing contract teacher but it isn’t impossible. It just takes non-lazy administrators. If someone really is not doing their job, document document document. Other things? There is no protection.
I don’t know why any school system would say that FICA is a benefit, that is just dead wrong and false reporting. I can’t speak for any jurisdiction other than Prince William. The health care listed for PR WM is if both husband and wife are employees. I think they might pay family if both spouses are on board. Not sure though. I do know that the amount listed is WAY high. Maybe the schools are padding their benefits for the sake of new employees which is deceptive.
Most people employed by private industry do not receive less money. Many people would seek other employment if that were done to them.
The median household income is $87k or thereabouts. . The average teacher salary is far below that amount. Shame on anyone who wants to strip their pay down further.
I’m wondering how much PWCS currently spends transporting players to and from middle schools for games. Times are tough. Wouldn’t it make more sense to spend limited transportation dollars to get kids to and from school, as opposed to to and from after-school, extracurricular games?
Nobody wants to see the middle school sports program eliminated, just as I’m sure nobody wants to see specialty school transportation eliminated — or the young students at the traditional schools (Porter and Pennington) forced to adapt to the high school schedule so they students can continue to ride specialty buses. But PWCS is being faced with devastating budget cuts. An intramural program in the middle schools would be so much more affordable — and open to so many more kids who are currently shut out because they don’t make the teams.
It absolutely boggles my mind that we expect young children to get up at 5:30 AM to catch a bus at 6:15 to arrive at school by 7 AM. The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends children get between 8 and 10 hours sleep every night. This means many of those students would need to be in bed by 8:00 or 8:30. Many parents aren’t home from work before 7PM. What about dinner? Homework? After school activities? A schedule like that is going to suck the joy out of family time.
@Moon-howler
I guess shame on me.
Jobs have been eliminated all over industry and business. Is it that much to ask that our government employees share the same pain that I do? Why do they have a special right to a job where my neighbor does not? A wise man once said, “I feel your pain.” I’m not sure anyone in PWC government does.
PWCS is the 4th highest paid district in Virginia. They can drop 95 spaces down the list before they hit rock bottom. It’s not an unheard of notion to say; look the economy isn’t where we need it to be – we need people to tighten belts.
I don’t relish the idea of having people fired or unemployed. But, if the money wasn’t allocated well the first time around maybe the school board and the voters will understand the severity of this mistake and prioritize things better going forward.
My employer also lists FICA (again, I’m not government) as a benefit. They also list military duty, jury duty, short- and long term disability, medical, life insurance, et. al. under my total compensation package. Those are all costs that my employer picks up and is an impact to their bottom line for having me around.
I agree with you about middle school sports. The free market offers sports for recreational and more advanced players. Students should be encouraged to seek those alternatives rather than having the schools fund them. High school sports would also be another target. It may be that club boosters and local companies and individuals may need to provide money to fund certain programs. Maybe something like Hylton Bulldogs Varsity Soccer Team sponsored by PAKMail of Montclair at the Domino’s Pizza-Hylton Stadium?
Budgets are about priorities. Is it a priority to have a $3500 electronic blackboard or hot breakfast? A science field trip or another year of math investigations?
…what are the choices we want and need to be made?
Marinm,
I would eliminate field trips that use school buses. I don’t think math investigations is costing any money now, is it? I would not be doing a textbook renewal any time in the near future.
I might consider charging a text book fee. Hot breakfast? Not sure who really foots the bill for that. I would have to see a cost breakdown. I strongly belief in the free and reduced lunch program that is federal. Most studies indicate hungry kids don’t learn as well.
Back to teachers–PWC also has the lowest starting pay in the area. That generally means the county stands last in line picking up new teachers. That is only one way to evaluate salary. What is the top pay, often is a step raise given vs a cola raise varies.
I am not ready reduce teacher salaries and I will never agree that it is a good idea unless we all on a lot harder times than these. Most companies I am aware of in this area have not reduced pay. There is no reason to make the teachers and/or school board employees the step children of Northern VA.
People have kids and will always have kids. The kids will need educating. supply/demand. If I were a teacher, I would just move it on down the line if I were asked to take a 15% reduction in pay. Also talk like this makes future teachers rethink a career in education. It undervalues their worth.
Marinm, would you go in to your doctor and tell him or her you were only paying 85% of the bill for the officie visit? How about your accountant? If you wouldn’t make that suggestion to those professionals, don’t make it to education professionals.
Compensation packages-FICA should never be listed as a benefit. If companies are doing that, they are simply liars. If counties are doing that, they are liars. When paying FICA becomes an option, then it should be listed as a benefit.
Smart boards are neat, aren’t they? Computerized grades are neat. Technology. Most purchased before the crash of 08. We live in a technological world. Our kids are bombarded with hi tech material all day. Basically, blackboards make as much sense as mimeograph machine and a Virginia attendance book.
Finally, if you want to attract business to a locality, you have libraries, parks, attractive public land and decent schools. Businesses don’t want to move their people into areas with lousy schools and libraries that are closed during prime time.
Take your average Hyltonian that you see in Dale City, Westgate, etc. Pick up that house and plant it over in McLean in the Langley High School district. See how much that house increases in value the moment it is plopped down.
Casual, I agree. I don’t see how high school kids handle the hours they do either. I have often wondered if it would improve the drop out rate just by having kids attend school during normal times.
Any program that exists needs continual or increased funding. So, MI will cost the same or more next year. Very rarely does a program cost less the next year.
If you charge a textbook fee – what about kids that are in families that live below the poverty line? I don’t have an issue with free textbooks as long as they’re returned at the end of the year. If not, you buy ’em. I graduated in ’94 so I can’t recall if I paid a textbook fee or not – I think I did. I didn’t like it then.
Feds I think pay $0.10 for the hot breakfast program. County and state eats (bad pun) the rest.
For the 3rd time – if you are in charge of funding what do you pick? Feed the kids or have the high tech chalkboard? What is the priority? It’s OK if you say the chalkboard (because the funds should go to education and not feeding) but I personally would use a whiteboard with dry erase markers and keep the extra money for another priority.
Most people haven’t seen an income hit? You have some fortunate friends. Last I checked nationally unemployment was just shy of 10%. I think VA is at 6%. Martinsville, VA is over 20%. NVA may be insulated from some of the major swings in the economy but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t homes going up for foreclosure everyday. Civil court in Manassas is jam packed with creditors going after debtors. That’s fiscal reality today.
Even with an income reduction you may lose some teachers (replaced by others entering the market) but where will they go? Not everyone wants to commute to Fairfax. DC offers teachers over 100K for K-12 but how many PWC teachers would want that offer? Prince George’s and Montgomery County all offer higher salaries but you don’t see Virginian teachers knocking down the doors to go across the Potomac.
Anything in the freemarket is negotiable. I once had a dentist ask me if I could do about $10K in IT security work for him in exchange for a politician’s smile. 100% barter. My service for his without pesky interference from the government. If I had the time I would’ve taken him up on it – was a great deal. If you goto a doctors office and don’t have insurance and are paying by cash you will find the price is…flexible. Any elective procedure you want done, offer cash and watch the cost drop like a rock.
If you see social security as a ‘benefit’ then the fact that it’s listed as a benefit for a total compensation calculation makes sense. If you believe, like I do, that SS is a scam and that instead of putting a gun to my head the govt should let me keep that money and do with it as I please – I would agree with you that it’s not a benefit.
Technology is grand. I work with it all day. I’m a grown man that still plays video games like I did when i was a kid but that doesn’t mean that we need to jump on every technological bandwagon. It all goes back to the bottom line. Am I getting the best return on my investment for widget A or teacher B. I can’t have both so which do I pick?
I don’t disagree with you about attracting business but that hasn’t been a priority of the PWC BOS. Residential growth is unchecked and business growth hasn’t kept up. Supporting a residential community costs a lot more than one with a good mix of business, industrial or commercial (try playing SIMcity – you get the hang of it quickly). Because we rely on residential property taxes the money we take in is always going to be lower than what we spend – which means cuts will have to be made. It’s a zero sum equation. What we take away from business (charging large business taxes makes business move to other counties) has to be compensated by residential. Since residential costs more each person has to contribute more and more (unsustainable long term) or residents have to get used to a lower level of governmental support.
The math doesn’t play out any other way. Cuts are going to happen. What are the counties priorities? We can keep an extra teacher just means we lose a fireman. Keep the fireman? Lose the cop. Keep the cop, lose a library day. Want to keep a senior center open? Potholes don’t get repaired.
It’s zero sum.
If I want to add a picture (for my profile) how do I do that? 🙂
@marinm
Look at the upper right of this page, click on create a Gravater, pick or upload the picture of your choice, and viola!
marinm, go to the moonhowlings home page and look at the upper right hand corner. It will say gravator. Follow directions. It takes a couple of hours to activate. Also, the picture will be tied to that email address. any place you use it, that picture will show up if you are somewhere that allows avatars.
Would I chose smart boards or breakfast? I don’t know. That isn’t how it usually breaks down. Unfortunately most adults look at education from the point of view that if it was good enough for them its good enough for todays kids. That isn’t really how it works.
When I was a kid, the day the teacher showed a movie, regardless of how old and boring it was, it was a red letter day. You sat up, you listened and you thought you were lucky. Today’s kids would sleep or talk. Nothing special. Smart boards to a great deal including link up notes, worksheets, absent work, to school fusion. I consider it using technology to enhance the learning process and environment.
Back to social security–I am not going to get into that argument here. Schools are enough to deal with. I will just never feel a compulsary government withhold is a benefit.
yes, everything can be bartered. I expect you could cut a deal with a teacher if your kid needed tutoring also. But that isn’t really what we are discussing here. That would be considered ‘side’ work in most professions. I am talking about going in to a professional and suggesting you should get 15% off your bill because people in the United States have been laid off. The laughter would be deafening, as it should be if you suggest that teachers and other school personnel take a cut in pay.
In ten years, this discussion will not be taking place. The teacher crunch will be too critical. Salaries and benefits will grow by leaps and bounds.
Back to those breakfasts….I would probably charge everyone and have a reduced cost for low income children with fewer choices. A piece of toast and a half pint of milk staves off hunger. The low income kids who get free or reduced lunch could pay a dime.
First things first… congrats on the new blog, MH! I guess I’m a few days behind.
Is the school start time a done deal for Porter and Pennington? I heard about it, but I didn’t know the decision was final.
Not sure. Hopefully we will get a report in from the meeting. That is a horrible time to have to be on the roll, for sure.
I gave a report last night when I got home. On the Time Line thread.
My sister-in-law is 3 years away from her teachers license. We debate the quality of schools now versus yesteryear and (in my view) the evilness of teachers unions. Unfortunatly, she’s already drank the kool-aid and she’ll be going into public service and will probably be a union member.
Atleast I tried.
We probably won’t see eye-to-eye on teacher/administrator cuts but I just don’t see any other path. We either cut services or salaries and people are already staking out turf on the services front (see thread about buses).
Something has to give.
You will have to go out of state to find a teachers’ union. In this state they are called professional education associations. There is no collective bargaining. They are not evil.
Listen to your sister in law. She is right. Everyone needs an advocate.
They do not hand out kool aid.
You’re right. Silly me for believing something in the WaPost:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/24/AR2009092404851.html
And, I agree with you that everyone needs an advocate. Teachers have a union or professional education association. Who do students have?
Regardless of what the Post calls Virginia’s education associations, the term ‘union’ is erroneous. There is no collective bargaining and there can be no teacher strikes in the state. Removing these 2 components sort of deunionizes any organization according to what I know about unions.
What do you know about VEA or PWEA that would make you think either the state or local functioned as a union?
Parents should be the child’s advocate. There are also paid advocates. Often, but no always, the teacher is the advocate for the child.
To Casual from Lafayette:
The teacher has interests that are not in the child’s best interest.
To raise a teachers salary or benefits package money may need to be moved from education to human resources. So, gains for the teacher may come from the hide of the students.
Same with parents. What benefit is provided by the county is releaved by demand from the parents (or more accurately taxpayers as parents aren’t the only ones required to pay RE property taxes). So, the needs and wants of teachers come at odds of those in class and those paying for that class.
In my opinion, an organization such as a teachers union is parasitic. It exists off the nourishment of the host (school system).
In our case, it will excite it’s membership to rally against keeping on the table an option that should merit careful consideration. As an example; to maintain current salary levels and staffing a student may be required to pay $150 to park at school. How is that not a negative to the student? How did the teacher (or union…sorry, PEA) advocate for the student in that instance? Maybe the system wanted $200 and the teacher negotiated the students fee down to $150, perhaps?
I don’t think we’ll agree on this but I do see public service unions as a threat to government and taxpayers.
So Marin, did you notice that I did say ‘sometimes?’
Very well, let the students teach themselves.
Actually the ‘teachers’ union’ (sic) does not exist off the backs of the taxpayers. I t is paid for by the teacher.
You might turn that around and say that the student is required to pay $150 to park so he can have a French teacher. Why can’t this student ride the bus like everyone else? He probably has wealthy parents. Bet they aren’t teachers, who in Marin’s world should be living below the poverty level. It is beginning to sound like maybe you want something for nothing. The teachers cannot negotiate the amount for parking. There is no collective bargaining.
I don’t think we will agree either. I don’t think you like public education or unions and it seems you have let this color your opinion. Probably a good thing you have decided to home school.
For the record, I pay a lot less annually in taxes than it costs to educate one kid. I don’t resent that over 50% of my tax money goes to the schools. Educated kids are an investment in the future. It makes my country, my state and my community stronger.
I don’t dislike public services in general. I am glad I can turn on my faucet and get clean water and that it goes down the drain to a govt. run sewage system. I am glad I have mail delivered. I know that I probably cannot protect myself against all crime and I might have to call the police. I also know if my house catches fire I can’t put it out myself. I have left out lots of services that I am very happy with and am willing to pay for with my taxes.
Me? Want something for nothing? No. Far from it.
But, I do find it interesting that a parkling lot paved for with tax dollars by the blood, sweat and tears of the taxed suddenly is a revenue source for the county. That doesn’t sit well with me, at all.
Because someone is wealthy does not mean he should be penalized. We reinforce this everyday in our schools – success means you have to sacrifice more. That’s silly. Success means that you did well and you should keep what you make. Failure means that you live in a ditch. Reinforce that everyday in school and you’ll see kids study harder. If not, we’ll they’ve allowed mroe resources to be provided to those that want to succeed.
The point above is that teachers are not the advocates that you believe them to be (atleast all the time).
Even at a 30K salary cut the average teacher in PWC wouldn’t be at the poverty line.
Marin, I wish it all broke down like that but it doesn’t. We don’t get a line item veto with the taxes we pay.
I never said teachers were always advocates. I said they could be. It depends on many factors involving the kid, the teacher, the situation. Parents should be their children’s first advocates.
We will not agree on teacher pay cuts. There really is nothing else to say. I actually consider the conversation disrespectful to teachers because it hinges on the premise that they are being paid too much. I don’t think they are paid enough for the crap they have to put up with.
Your negative feelings about teachers is certainly not the majority mind set in this state.