Abusive, derogatory and racist behavior directed at House Democrats by protesters on Saturday shocked lawmakers. Before the President’s speech to House Democrats, thousands of protestors gathered to protest the passage of health care reform. Members of the crowd were shown heckling. Some became abusive and resorted to hurling racial epithets.
The Huffington Post reports:
A staffer for Rep. James Clyburn (D-S.C.) told reporters that Rep. Emanuel Cleaver (D-Mo.) had been spat on by a protestor. Rep. John Lewis (D-Ga.), a hero of the civil rights movement, was called a ‘ni–er.’ And Rep. Barney Frank (D-Mass.) was called a “faggot,” as protestors shouted at him with deliberately lisp-y screams. Frank, approached in the halls after the president’s speech, shrugged off the incident.
But Clyburn was downright incredulous, saying he had not witnessed such treatment since he was leading civil rights protests in South Carolina in the 1960s.
“It was absolutely shocking to me,” Clyburn said, in response to a question from the Huffington Post. “Last Monday, this past Monday, I stayed home to meet on the campus of Claflin University where fifty years ago as of last Monday… I led the first demonstrations in South Carolina, the sit ins… And quite frankly I heard some things today I have not heard since that day. I heard people saying things that I have not heard since March 15, 1960 when I was marching to try and get off the back of the bus.”
“It doesn’t make me nervous as all,” the congressman said, when asked how the mob-like atmosphere made him feel. “In fact, as I said to one heckler, I am the hardest person in the world to intimidate, so they better go somewhere else.”
Asked if he wanted an apology from the group of Republican lawmakers who had addressed the crowd and, in many ways, played on their worst fears of health care legislation, the Democratic Party, and the president, Clyburn replied:
A lot of us have been saying for a long time that much of this, much of this is not about health care a all. And I think a lot of those people today demonstrated that this is not about health care… it is about trying to extend a basic fundamental right to people who are less powerful.”
For many of the members of the CBC, like John Lewis and Emanuel Cleaver who worked in the civil rights movement, and for Mr. Frank who has struggled in the cause of equality, this is not the first time they have been spit on during turbulent times.
This afternoon, the Congressman was walking into the Capitol to vote, when one protester spat on him. The Congressman would like to thank the US Capitol Police officer who quickly escorted the others Members and him into the Capitol, and defused the tense situation with professionalism and care. After all the Members were safe, a full report was taken and the matter was handled by the US Capitol Police. The man who spat on the Congressman was arrested, but the Congressman has chosen not to press charges. He has left the matter with the Capitol Police.
This is not the first time the Congressman has been called the “n” word and certainly not the worst assault he has endured in his years fighting for equal rights for all Americans. That being said, he is disappointed that in the 21st century our national discourse has devolved to the point of name calling and spitting. He looks forward to taking a historic vote on health care reform legislation tomorrow, for the residents of the Fifth District of Missouri and for all Americans. He believes deeply that tomorrow’s vote is, in fact, a vote for equality and to secure health care as a right for all. Our nation has a history of struggling each time we expand rights. Today’s protests are no different, but the Congressman believes this is worth fighting for.
Behavior like this reminds me all too much of scenes on TV that I saw as a kid. The only things that seem to be missing are dogs and fire hoses. This scene is totally unacceptable. If leaders of protests can’t control their crowds and their people then they need to have smaller crowds or stay home. When gatherings turn nasty like this one did, something is wrong. Our democracy cannot survive on mob rule. The threats of violence are unacceptable. I keep hearing the word ‘fringe.’ I keep seeing what seems like thousands of ‘fringe. ‘ I am more than willing to concede their numbers.
Pass the health care bill now! And if the tea partiers want to wage violent war against our elected officials – bring it on!
I have no intention of paying for insurance under this new plan. I will simply wait until I need it, then I will pay the piffling penalty and get my care, since there’s no restriction against pre-existing conditions. We’ve done the math, and it will work to our advantage to just ignore this “mandate” until the need arises.
Anti-abortion Democrats have now been bought off with an Executive Order that will allegedly ban federal funding of abortions, so it’s clear that the healthcare bill is a done deal. No big surprise there.
Don’t these rocket scientists realize that an Executive Order can be rescinded at any time, without any input from Congress?
It is so clear to me that this bill had their vote all along, and all of this is just manufactured drama.
I didn’t quote you as saying them. It was a collection of ideas over the past several days.
There is nothing to defend. It was a good lead in to discuss some of the past comments that have been made here by several people.
I suppose it all depends on how one defines ‘fringe.’ It was a comment, not an accusation. It was not a debate.
Kelly, I don’t agree with it or disagree with it. I am just sitting back watching. Quite frankly, I gave up on fact finding last fall when every town hall meeting evolved into a shouting match from the crowd. Most of my friends feel the same way. I am not even going to listen to a shouting match.
Which congressman actually put out the code red alarm?
I think Steve King called it. Don’t remember. He did it on Beck’s show. Moon, I understand that you don’t like seeing the protesters surrounding your capitol. I don’t like the corrupt crooks within it. Heck, I would have like to see Obamacare SUPPORTERS show up.
Also, while I may be considered fringe in some minds, I consider myself mainstream also. As I said, everyone else’s position in politics and philosophy is relative to yours….
Even Ron Paul and Kucinich believe that that they are mainstream as does Michael Moore…..
Starry, so you don’t mind that Congress is trying to use unconstitutional tricks to pass a bill that no one wants? You don’t want them to actually go back and do it right, without the deals and kick backs? You don’t have a problem with unconstitutional mandates on the citizenry? Does the end justify the means?
When does a free citizenry pick up arms to keep their freedom? That is the question that all free citizens must answer within themselves. It is up to us to keep this Republic.
Since I started off the responses to this thread, it’s about time I chimed back in. Cargosquid’s links got me to searching around the web to see if I couldn’t shed some more light on this whole protest affair.
First off, I will not back off on the criticism of those people carrying the Browning signs. I was aware of that meeting in the Chantilly library and posted a note of complaint on one of Greg’s BVBL threads which advised of the meeting and identified the conservative leaders in attendance who would be speaking. Let me make it abundantly clear. I am pro-2nd Amendment. I am pro-concealed carry because, in my opinion, the streets of this country have become far more dangerous to one’s health and life than they have been since the days of the Wild West. I do not oppose open carry; but I think it is too often used to show swagger and silly bravado. That guy with the gun at an Obama appearance in Arizona was a case which really turned me off. He claimed he was there to emphasize his right to have a gun. My view is that this kind of silliness actually serves to feed ammunition to the anti-gun people and hurts our cause for the 2nd Amendment. If you feel threatened, use concealed carry. Open carry scares people to death who are not used to seeing guns, and you only succeed in sending more potential votes over to the other side. Look, I’ve carried a gun when it meant something, when I didn’t know whether I would encounter an enemy frogman with a bomb headed for one of our ships or whether I would suddenly exit this earth because of a North Vietnamese sniper in the trees on the river bank. If I see you in an open carry mode in Loudoun County, I AM GOING TO GET NERVOUS!! If you can make me nervous, imagine what you are doing to those who are not used to guns.
As for those protest signs about Brown and Browning, as far as I am concerned the guy might as well have been open carrying the Browning itself. The effect is the same: instant turn-off by people who might just be convinced otherwise to hear us out on the issues. Instead of listening to you, that person is bound to keep one eye on that threatening sign and the person carrying it. If there is one thing I cannot stand personally in battle, it is to have to worry about getting screwed by a stupid on my own side. These kind of people ought to be out of here. End of rant.
As for the protest incidents reported in the thread. I’ve looked around at television accounts, newspaper stories, and multiple numbers of blogs, as well as the comments section following various articles and television reporting. One thing I found is that newspapers around the country often picked up the original MSM story and printed it without their own research for verification. Secondly, most of them missed a later key statement from the Capitol Police on the alleged spitting incident: No arrest was made. It seems to me that, if someone was seen spitting on a congressman (which is to my mind a physical attack), the police would arrest automatically. Whether or not the congressman decided later to press charges would be immaterial to the fact that an on-the-spot arrest or at least temporary custody move was made. Personally, I cannot find where a police officer even saw the claimed incident. I did see claims that the police either offered to escort the congresspersons inside or actually did so. Maybe I just missed the actual police spotting of the spitting episode.
My personal conclusions are that a certain, very limited number of incidents probably did occur when that group of Democratic congresspersons was headed for the door of the Capitol Building. The spitting incident quite possibly. The name-calling aimed at Congressman Frank probably. The use of the “N” word maybe; but the congressman claiming this only stated that he “thought” he heard that word from the crowd. Why do I think they probably happened? Because I found comments posted on various threads on blogs and after newspaper articles from people who were in the crowd and said that just a few untoward incidents did happen. But here’s something you will not see in the Huff Post and in the cherrypicking MSM: These same people stated that, when these incidents occurred, the crowd of Tea Party people around the perpetrators turned on the latter and told them to knock it off because that sort of behavior was not acceptable. So, in contrast to the cherrypicking, selective targeting, and ommissions by of the MSM, it looks to me like you had limited incidents of misbehavior and that those limited incidents received a scolding from the bulk of the protesters nearest to the perpetrators. Others claimed they heard nothing as described by the press except for the chant of “Kill the Bill!” That is probably true. The incidents were limited. The crowd was chanting.
If the Tea Party protesters turned on the perps and scolded them for their bad behavior, I personally feel very vindicated. Perhaps these were just the “fringe” found at every protest. And the question is still open as to whether some of these perps could have been plants playing on the propensity of some in the media to focus in on the “bad.”. This is not unheard of in political protests. I won’t go so far as to state that this was probably the case. But I won’t dismiss it either. I’ve been in too many battles to dismiss the possibility of anything.
One last word. Many of my friends on this blog are fond of going after the scalps of Limbaugh, Hannity, and Beck . I’ve got no quarrel with that. When such people enter the feisty arena of political commentary, a part of the package is criticism from the other side. But please remember to look back at the incident under discussion here. In my opinion, you saw some very dirty pool on the part of the Huff Post and certain segments of the MSM. They quite obviously tried to tar an entire movement of your fellow citizens by focusing in on a small number of miscreants. They extrapolated a couple of signs and a couple of moments of bad behavior into a generalized condemnation of the whole and tried to convince you of it. Come to think of it, that is sort of what Corey Stewart is being taken to task for on this very blog. And, in case you didn’t see it, I placed another post on the BVBL telling Cory I thought his statements were not at all helpful. There is one thing you have to understand about old Wolverine., He doesn’t like crap from either side and doesn’t mince words about it. He doesn’t like to get screwed by the opposition, and he doesn’t like to get unexpectedly shafted by his own side.
If there is one thing I learned in my career, it is that, if you want to establish any kind of relationship with someone who happens to be at odds with your views, you do not start off the conversation by calling him a “fruitcake” — even in a joking or flippant manner. I did that once when I was still young and very green. She wouldn’t speak to me again for months.
6:45 pm and still no vote. I’m betting they’re going for MAXIMUM drama now with a primetime announcement and teleprompted presidential speech at 9 pm.
@cargosquid Actually, I was very pleased at Starry’s comment. It sounded like a rousing rendition of the Democratic swan song in 2010 and 2012.
Well said, Wolverine.
@Gainesville Resident
I feel certain it has fringe members. Think about it for a minute. I also try to handle it the best I can. And some people may knock but they can’t come in, if you get my drift.
Michael Moore doesn’t believe he is mainstream. In the interviews I have seen of him, he has said he is fringe and he has made enough money to be the conscience of America or something to that effect.
However, I agree that fringe is a very relative term.
Wolverine, I also checked out the story on other news sources. None were msnbc. What I put up for the blog appeared in more than one source. The only thing that I left off was the direct reference to Tea Party in the title.
Some of the post was direct quote from Rep. Cleaver. The other quote, from Huff, I saw other places.
I try not to misrepresent. I am sure it happens occassionally but it is not intentional. I don’t find a political enemy and build support evidence around that enemy like I have seen done on local blogs to do a character assassination.
Wolverine, I agree with you 100% about the gun situation. This isn’t the wild west. I have lived around them my entire life. I still don’t want to see someone walking around Manassas packing heat. It makes me real nervous also.
Representative Clearver, who was spit upon, chose NOT to press charges. It is true. What are you thoughts Wolverine on the medicare prescription drug act? Did you know that the Medicare Actuary was threatened to be fired if he shared the true numbers with congress?
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/07/us/inquiry-confirms-top-medicare-official-threatened-actuary-over-cost-drug.html?pagewanted=1
I don’t think it would have been Rep. Clearver’s choice as to whether the person would have been arrested or not. If the Capitol Police were doing their job, the person would have been arrested for assault. Someone’s lying.
Good find, Elena. It looks like my concern back then about how Federal programs always cost more than they say they will was on the mark. What can I say? Both parties seem to like to use trumped up numbers to mislead the rest of us. Must be a disease to which all politicians are prone. Actually, from my own experience the legal fault in not informing Congress would seem to belong on the shoulders of the Medicare Actuary’s boss or perhaps in the White House if the numbers went up that far in any way shape or form. There is a chain of command and chain of reporting responsibility. If that becomes routinely ignored, any organization winds up in chaos and mistrust. I cannot tell if a threat to fire was made. It seems to be the word of one guy against the word of another. Unless there was a witness, no solution. Not even a polygraph is acceptable as legal evidence of guilt.
I’ll give you another one of those intuitions gained long ago in numerous budget confabs and crises: the fiscal results of the health care bill which was just passed will look nothing like the bs the politicians and the CBO have been handing out. Hold onto your wallet. This thing is far from pay-as-you-go. It’ll be pay up front and wait four years for the product — and hope your not too old by then and are deemed to be not worth the extra cost. I predict we will see “cost overruns” up the wazoo for a long, long time. And I really have to laugh at the claim that this bill will finally dig out and dispense with all that fraud and waste in the Medicare system. Don’t give me that bs. If the Oval Office was serious about ending fraud and waste in Medicare and thereby cutting into the budget deficits, they would have had a team of green eyeshades digging into those numbers a long time ago. I’ve seen GS-13 finance officers put on a better show than this one. When I did my monthly accounting, I’d get dinged if I was dollar short.
OK, I just thought you were referring to the post you referenced when you said that.
Still, I’m not sure I said all those things I was accused of saying, but I’ll let it go. The reference to that specific post of mine confused me.
OK, that’s fair enough. My definition of fringe is definitely different than other people’s definition. Mine only includes some members of the Tea Party, and not the entire Tea Party, for example. And, my definition of fringe on the opposite side (the liberal side) may be different than other people’s definition of fringe on that side.
They knew they had these votes way way before the weekend. It’s just to make it look like it was a much harder push than it really was for these votes. They’d never have scheduled this for a vote on Sunday (fairly far in advance) if they weren’t 100% sure they’d have the necessary votes on Sunday to pass it. They would never have scheduled a big important vote like that if they thought there was even the slightest chance it would fail.
Very clever and smart of them – now it looks like they climbed Mt. Everest the past few days to get this thing passed. I congratulate them for the excellent work in making it look in the past week like this was a much much much tougher thing for them to accomplish than it really was. Very very smart manipulation of the news media, etc. Really, it was very clever to them and I have to admire all the planning that must have went into that.
I’ve heard Michael Moore say that too. He’s definitely right – in my book he is fringe.
I agree though that fringe is a very relative term.
Getting back to that incident in Manassas at Tony’s pizza, if I were in the restaurant as a patron and enjoying a meal, and I saw a bunch of people I don’t know walk in displaying pistols attached to their waists in pistolholders, it would indeed make me very uncomfortable. I think I would finish up my meal as rapidly as I could and get the heck out of there. My thought would be “who knows what’s going through the minds of these people – are they planning something crazy?”. Maybe that’s just me and being paranoid. Just seeing a somewhat large (by that I mean 3 or more people) walk into a restaurant with pistols attached to their waists – not being policemen, it would unnerve me.
I remember when both sides came out with their estimates of what various versions of healthcare reform would truly cost. Someone did an analysis of both sides’ estimates (Republican and Democrat) and found both to be way off. The Republicans’ were found to be intentionally exaggerating the cost way out of proportion, and the Democrats were found to be intentionally making it much less than it would probably be. Neither side can be believed in that regard – both twist the numbers around to make their case, and mislead us!
The Republicans had 8 years to come up with a health care bill. It wasn’t rocket science that our current health care was horrendously expensive and there were at least 30 million uninsured people.
They didn’t handle things and so someone else did. Now we are stuck with whatever just got handed down last night, for better or worse.
The Republicans ought to skulk off with their tails between their legs. They had their chance and blew it. Sorry, it was more important to rebuilt freaking Iraq than it was to take care of Americans. I can live with all that. What I can’t live with is the complaining.
Its time now for both parties to just move on. Its nearly a done deal. Move on to something else to whine about…both parties!
Congress has no authority to run the health care system or mandate health insurance purchases. It is not time for the parties to move on. It is time to repeal whatever is passed and time for the states to sue. I’m tired of the parties, especially the GOP, to just give up whenever the Democrats increase the size of government. I’m tired of the GOP going along with other Republicans when THEY increase the size of government. Its time to fight, repeal, sue, or civil disobedience. If insurance is mandated, I hope that people that do not wish it, to not buy any. If possible, I will not go along with any government mandate.
This bill doesn’t insure 30 million more and it RAISES costs. How is this an improvement. This bill only sets up the entire system to harm private insurance in the long run. It sets up the country for more unfunded liabilities.
A comprehensive government bill cannot fix a thing. Reform should have happened with specific targeted laws. But, of course, no one wants “less” government influence. Every time the GOP mentions that, they get pilloried in the press. God forbid we try a more free market approach to….oh….anything.
Yes, but if it is for worse – than they (the Republicans) can’t be blamed for it. Their ideas this time around were absolutely not listened to. Pelosi very early on last year let it be known Republican votes were not needed, and therefore she wasn’t interested in Republican input.
So, it goes both ways – they shut the Republicans out in the house because they figured they had the votes they needed.
It isn’t the Republicans’ fault we got this healthcare reform – if it doesn’t end up working out well. The Republicans had some good ideas this time, but so far I don’t see any of their ideas in the final bill.
The specific targeted laws or “piecemeal” approach to healthcare reform – rather than trying to tackle it all at one time, was indeed a key approach of the Republicans. But, the Democrats didn’t want that – they wanted to make a big spash and do it all in one big bite. We’ll see how that works – I hope it will work, but to me it seemed to make more logical sense to do it in more smaller pieces. For one thing, it would have been a heck of a lot easier to understand that way.
I still say, no one can easily tell me what all is in this new bill. They can tell me a lot of things that are in it, but who knows altogether what all is in it. I bet there are very very few people that understand all of it. Let’s just hope they got it right.
@cargosquid You don’t have to go along with the government mandate. It’s cheaper to just pay the penalty, and you won’t have to worry about pre-existing conditions.
I can’t think of a more effective form of civil disobedience than gaming the system this way. Who will fund it if no one bothers to pay until they need it?
@Gainesville Resident
Not to hijack the thread, but if I remember correctly, the incident at Tony’s was that another customer called the cops. The cops arrived, determined that all firearms were being lawfully carried, talked to the manager, and left.
I’m not sure where you live, but, in Virginia, if a restaurant serves alcohol, one must open carry their firearm or leave it in the vehicle, where, of course, its vulnerable to theft. The Virginia Citizens Defense League dines out every month after their meetings while open carrying. Only one incident. The Norfolk police harassed a member for “carrying while black.” He was with another member and the cops did not bother that man, but, arrested him. He made some money off the county. Again. Other than that, no problems.
Cargo, any topic that isn’t about health care is welcome to me at this point. I am health cared out.
Feel free to talk about anything else. At 81 comments, the only place the topic can go is up.
I don’t usually like hi jacking but tonight, I don’t care and I won’t care tomorrow either.
Every time I hear free market I see dead buffalo, stripped away hilltops and primeval trees shorn off at the roots.
Thanks Cargosquid for that post. I appreciate your correcting the details – my memory was fuzzy on it. I used to live in Manassas – but now live in Gainesville. I do remember reading how the law worked about open carry – you can’t conceal your weapon in a restaurant.
Anyway, that’s an important point that a customer called the police. That’s very different than the owner calling the police. So, I’m glad you clarified that – I could not remember the exact details.
Actually, the local press may have distorted things too. I thought it was said the police asked those folks to leave improperly. From what you say, they took no action. Anyway, I don’t doubt your version of events at all, cargo. I wouldn’t be surprised if the press distorted things – as I’ve always felt I can’t believe everything I read in the press.
Moon,
Free market does not mean unregulated. And in today’s regulated market, you still get stripped away hill tops, and primeval trees cut down. And why is that? Because coal is still king. Nuclear energy could replace alot of that but its impossible to get. Gas drilling is non-existent because of gov’t bans. I don’t know enough about the timber industry to help reduce using old growth forests.
What I mean by free market is just that. Lets have a market of insurance possibilities, medical requirements, etc. Today’s environment means that large corporations have very little competition. They love government interference. Instead of acting as referee, the government decides who gets to play. And the insurance companies love it. We have very little choice per state. And the mandates disallow any true market. One should be able to go down a list and pick what they want covered and then given a price.
Capitalism, for lack of a better term, is what made America great, and what frees up the human being. Being allowed to compete freely allows one to grow and prosper. When risk and growth are stifled, you become stale. You become Europe. And I mean that demographically too. If there is no growth, if there is nothing to strive for except more security, why have kids? The only reason why America, in the entire western world , has replacement demographics is because of immigration. We have a demographic replacement rate of 2.1. Europe has a rate of about 1.6. They are losing population.
If all you believe in is the state and more benefits, then you are lost.
Cargo, actually I was thinking about the 19th century when there was almost no regulation. Buffalo were shot, mining was the most expedient method regardless of environment havoc and ancient trees were cut down for masts. I guess I am speaking of waste on a grand scale. All of these are regulated now. I don’t have a problem with some degree of regulation. Mankind and greed are just too inseparable.
cargo, I like capitalism but it cannot be completely without regulation. Back to why I am a moderate….