107 Thoughts to “New Video Highlights: Don’t Make Our Mistakes from Riverside New Jersey”

  1. Gainesville Resident

    Maribel,
    Did you ever answer the question about your ‘Spanish’ translation?

  2. Freestyle

    Great point GR – Maribel did you answer the question posed regarding your Spanish?

    The first video clearly deals with reputation which was recently discussed here.

    Reputation. Prince William County’s reputation has traditionally been that it’s a ‘redneck town’, I’m afraid we have only reinforced that notion with the adoption of this anti-illegal resolution.

  3. TWINAD

    Freestyle,

    Agreed on PWC past history. The current climate is doing absolutely nothing to improve on that image. It’s not as though Manassas was the crown jewel of Virginia prior to the immigrant’s arrival. Prior to this, the biggest thing Manassas was known for was Lorena Bobbitt. Now the image is sullied further under the guise of “Saving Manassas”…saving it from what? Brown skinned people as far as I can tell.

  4. Censored bybvbl

    PWC was also known as a bedroom community filled with townhouses. The BOCS has tried to move away from that image by attracting more businesses. But a national or multi-national business won’t be tempted to relocate to a jurisdiction in which some/many of their employees would feel unwelcomed.

  5. Laurie M

    Censored:
    One could just as easily makes the converse argument. Not maintaining law and order, and basic civility is a deterrent to businesses that are looking to bring higher income/white collar jobs to the area. Who would want to invest in a community that looked away while a thriving undocumented underground hid criminal gangs, ID theft, etc? The attack at Manassas Mall? The gunshots at Coverstone near the HD? You think that type of activity is “attractive” to businesses?

  6. Censored bybvbl

    Laurie M, I live in mid-county and am generally unaffected by those problems…except the ID theft by a man whose status I don’t know. I continue to shop at Manassas Mall and every other shopping center which I’ve patronized in the thirty years I’ve lived in the county. I was unaware that we had become the Wild West. Some of the neighborhoods which are experiencing problems have had those same problems for as long as I’ve lived here.

  7. Elena

    Laurie M said on 17 Apr 2008 at 5:36 pm:

    How do you respond to Chief Deane when he shares the FACTS, yes, those pesky things called FACTS, that crime has decreased in the last five years. As far as I can tell, your house, my house, all housed in PWC increased in value, until that is, the real estate bubble burst. It was bound to happen, and the resolution had nothing to do with that. However, I believe IT did make a bad situation, much worse. We are double the forclosure rate our surrounding counties. Why is that, well I would venture to say, we made our community so unwelcoming, the rhetoric so vile, that citizens and undocumented people left. Either because they were afraid of being looked upon with disgust for being latino or if there were, indeed, undocumented, afraid of being pulled over for some minor traffic infraction and then being deported, leaving their families behind.

    PWC didn’t have a great reputation, but you know what, it was definately improving, and now, the resolution has done an incredible amount of damage. Once again, we are the poor stepchild to Fairfax County.

  8. Juturna

    “Who would want to invest in a community that looked away while a thriving undocumented underground hid criminal gangs, ID theft, etc? ”

    Where is this thriving underground???!!

    PWC was moving from the redneck one horse town and now all that has been done is a major validation of what everyone else outside of the area (Stafford, Fauquier, Fairfax) thought. I’ve heard comments from as far away as Washington State.

  9. Laurie M

    Juturna,
    You really need to talk to someone who works for ICE and/or in national security.
    Lopez was just the tip of the iceberg. Just because you may not have been personally affected, does not mean it isn’t real.

    We are double the foreclosure rate because lenders made loosened the lending criteria in an unprecented rate, allowing people to buy without documenting income. This applied equally to illegal and legal residents. I know a few people who went out and purchased a home they could not afford because of the ridiculous lending guidelines.

    I guess the rising MS-13 problem is a figment of my imagination too, and the need for the NoVA gang task force. We all know MS-13 members are just misunderstood youth with playful tendencies to you know, murder and maim people. Like pregnant Brenda Paz. But I am sure I am “exaggerating”. Continue to hide your heads in the sand.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenda_Paz

    Here is a source that is well respected. Search within the blog about MS-13 (entrenched in NoVa and Tidewater), human trafficking, etc etc etc etc…..

  10. Laurie M

    http://www.intelligencesummit.org/

    And actually, PWC *did* have a great reputation as family friendly, diverse, good schools (which is why we chose to move here) until we let the illegal alien situation get out of control.

  11. Laurie M

    Censored by bvbl,
    I am glad that the issues do not seem to have affected you personally. Wish that I could say the same. We no longer shop at MM and haven’t since our daughters began being harassed, which security did nothing about. Not a life-or-death issue, but I refuse to patronize a location where public civility and decency is not upheld.

    The lack of civility is not solely to the “illegal” problem, but the congestion and overcrowding. At 0500 AM I was passed at high speed on the right by someone taking the gravel shoulder who felt the rest of us going the speed limit were an impediment. The whole tone of the overbuilding, overcrowding, general all-around-stress is disconcerting. The latte-clutching commuters are equally to blame.

  12. Censored bybvbl

    Laurie M, exactly how did the “illegal alien” situation get out of control? How does it affect you personally? Overcrowding? And how do you know the over-crowders are here illegally? Will vacant housing with high grass and possible vandalisn be better? Will my taxes increase to mow the lawns of the vacant houses? Is that what the BOCS will hear people complain about next?

  13. Censored bybvbl

    Laurie M, the traffic scofflaws have been passing on the right since I’ve lived here (1960s). Much of that rudeness is urban…as you say, too much traffic, too little time. And too little public transportation. At least Manassas has the VRE.

  14. Laurie M

    How did it affect me personally?
    -ID theft – which we are still working to resolve. I was heartened to hear about the immigration raids at the poultry plants, where they were targetting individuals who had used stolen identities to work, without regard for the pain and suffering this caused the VICTIMS of their selfish crime. I am glad that this particular hell has not visited you or members of your family.

    -My daughter was hit by an uninsured, unlicensed, undocumented driver. And yes…I did verify all of those details. My daughter, a scared 17 year old driver, was physically threatened by the other driver as she tried to call the police. She called her dad at work, who told her to get into the car, lock the doors and call 9-11. The accident wasn’t her fault, but our insurance premiums went up. And we all pay the bill for uninsured and undocumented drivers who create mayhem. It’s not a victimless crime.

    -Don’t even get me started on the harassment and boorish manners. I have lived all around the world so I can handle it, but doesn’t mean I have to like it or tolerate it.

    -Overcrowding — no, our HOA put a stop to that. There was one family who tried to turn their basement into a rooming house, but they were shut down. So I have been spared that particular duress.

    -As a legal immigrant, the basic concepts of fairness and fair play are also a factor. Unless you have gone through the immigration process yourself and waited patiently, followed the rules, paid the fees, you have no idea how insulting it is to have people tell you living here illegally with a stolen identity is akin to getting a parking ticket.

  15. Laurie M

    Censored —
    Agree with you completely. We moved to an area that was supposed to be protected by the “rural crescent” (HA!), which was a big factor in our decision to locate there. If I wanted to live in rush-rush Fairfax, I would have bought there. 8800 new homes and no road improvements later, welcome to PWC 2008. So my gripe about rudeness and lack of public civility is targetted at everyone who has morphed into a “rushaholic”.

  16. Laurie M

    One of the stated goals of the hosts of this blog was to start a dialog about solutions, but it seems that very few of the posts are in that vein.

    I make no secret of the fact that I lobbied and supported the Rule of Law resolution. I am proud of that choice, and stand by it. Like many here, I have deeply held convictions.

    However, I also do what I can to make a positive change in the world. As I have mentioned before, I have been fortunate enough to live in different places around the world as my family worked with NGOs (my dad is an engineer and my mom a nurse). The need of the second and third world is almost overwhelming. Granting amnesty etc to those who have come here illegally is never going to solve the problem.

    Being firm about enforcing existing immigration policy is a step towards solving the problem….call it tough love if you will.

    In the meantime, what can be done to ameliorate the conditions for the literally billions around the world who languish in poverty which we can not even begin to imagine? From my experiences, I realized that working to improve conditions on site is better, more cost-effective and has a greater long term impact. The analogy of allowing the illegal aliens here to stay is akin to giving them a fish; working in partnership to improve the conditions of their home country, through supporting microloans, education projects and positive political activism, is akin to teaching them how to fish.

    I agree wholeheartedly that the vast majority of illegal aliens here are good people who are trying to do the best they can by their families.

    I guess I disagree on the solution and approach, and the hyperfocus on just the perceived needs and desires of the hispanic community.

    For my part, I advocate for policies that will strengthen the safety and security of the citizens and residents of the Western world, as well as working with agencies and groups that are trying to uplift the “other” world. I donate to microloan projects and have worked to build and fund schools. I am working with a school in California that is working to raise money to build a school in Uganda. My parents are retired but still travel to different places around the world to teach, instruct and inspire ….people to become fishermen for their communities.

  17. Censored bybvbl

    Laurie M, we’ve been victims of identity theft and an accident which totaled my car…both caused by immigrants but I don’t know their status and I don’t think the police were even interested at the time (about ten years ago). I know what a pain it is to get everything straightened out.

    I just find it ironic that the organization (FAIR) that helped to get the resolution going in PWC wants to limit immigration…legal immigration as well as illegal immigration. I find it ironic for the resolution to be supported by people who are legal immigrants or whose family members are because FAIR might have opposed their assimilation here as well.

  18. Censored bybvbl

    Laurie M, I agree with the use of microloans and emphasis on education.

    Personally, I don’t have a terribly optimistic vision of the future of societies as we know them. Information travels so quickly, as do people. I think the industrialized countries will end up with less in the way of goods and luxuries as we know them today and in the past. Third world countries will probably end up with a little more than they’ve known. I think you’ll see much uncontrolled and uncontrolable immigration/emigration. Those countries that try for strict controls better be willing to ante up the money to accomplish this. Mass media has made what richer countries have desirable to just about everyone…perhaps not our western culture, but our easy lives. People in poverty will try for better lives and that will mean movement across the globe.

  19. Elena

    Laurie M,
    People here do advocate solutions, just because they don’t match yours, it does not make them irrelevant. Also, it is NOT the rule of law resolution, it has never been referred to as the rule of law resolution by anyone but Greg. It is the illegal immigration resolution.

    No one here is disagreeing that there are community issues, but those could have and should have been dealt with much differently. Undocumented workers, by and large, are law abiding. MS-13 is a huge problem, but so are the myriad of other gangs that are home grown. Alienating the very immigrants that can help us combat MS13 is irresponsible to say the least. Chief Deane specifically discussed the negative consequences of putting fear into the hispanic community and its relation to crime solving.

  20. Cindy B

    Look at the migration caused within the states by Katrina. My father’s family lost their Oklahoma farm in the Dust Bowl and migrated to Oregon. Both disasters caused an overwhelming stress on the communities they migrated to because of the influx of people. The natural impulse is to band together at first, and then assimilate. How many have returned to Oklahoma, Mississippi, Louisiana, though? My father never went back. And his ancestors were probably part of the Oklahoma land rush that took land from the Native Americans. They were three brothers who came from Scotland, and parted at Ellis Island, going in three different directions!

  21. Cindy B

    Advocacy, microloans, building schools — all good solutions.

  22. SecondAlamo

    Ok, give me the max number of illegals that should be allowed in PWC. Once you have that number, then please tell me how we ensure it doesn’t get exceeded. Once you come up with that answer, then I’ll listen more carefully. There has to be a max number. PWC can’t support an infinite number of low wage workers.

    If you can’t answer that question, then please tell me exactly what your goal is. All this debating is nothing but a bunch of wasted effort if you don’t have a specific goal. The OTHERS at least state their goal without hesitation.

  23. Moon-howler

    SA,

    How many residents can we allow in PWC? I don’t think we can set a limit on anyone. If half of detroit decided to move here tomorrow, there would really be nothing we could do about it.

  24. redawn

    Moon-howler,

    This is a flip to overcrowded neighborhoods and how to combat this problem.

    http://biz.yahoo.com/wallstreet/080412/sb120795565414109159_id.html?.v=1

  25. Elena

    SA,
    Inquiring minds still want to know 🙂

    O.K., first of all, there is credibility to the idea of free market labor. I imagine, that as the construction bubble burst, some people would have left the area anyway. This board didn’t have enough forsight to see that. What I want to know, is how did ANY low skilled immigrant EVER survive in this country? Do you have immigrants in your family tree? My guess would be yes, just like the rest of us. Why are latino immigrants different from your family geneology or mine or anyone elses? Our ancestors all came here for one reason, to have a better life. They sacraficed so that their children would have opportunities they never had.

  26. SecondAlamo

    BUT They did it legally. They were ALLOWED into this country, and they HAD to make it own their own. There was no tax payer funded support system that bore a burden in direct relationship to the number of immigrants arriving. Plus the people were checked for disease and criminal background, as limited a check as it was in those days. The bottom line is there was a way of controlling immigration, and as with all controls, someone has to determine a limit. In our present situation what would that limit for PWC?

  27. LuckyDuck

    Hi Elena, I don’t think Latino immigrants are any different from other’s family geneology (I am second generation), I think the perception from the public is what has changed, particulary in this area. Americans are not used to 30/40 men hanging around the Route one/Longview drive 7/11 rushing vehicles for work nor are they used to, in this area, overcrowded single family homes or garages converted into apartments. This area siimply did not have those issues in the 1980’s or early ’90’s. Other places may have, but we didn’t. In my opinion, this present wave of immigrants are not different, WE in this area are used to a different behavioral set and the general public gets upset with the change.

    I have been in this community 30 years and have seen drastic changes, most of them have been excellent, some not so good. But its the perception of the public at large and their reaction to immmigration that has changed.

  28. SecondAlamo

    LuckyDuck,

    I agree with most of your above post, but I don’t think PWC perceptions have ever changed. It’s just that no one group has ever gone up against what PWC thinks is acceptable behavior.

  29. Moon-howler

    Excellent points LuckyDuck. Our previous ‘immigrants’ were thousands and thousand of government workers pouring into the county for affordable housing. Welcome back. We have missed your contributions here.
    ————————————————————-
    Second Alamo,

    I am going to disagree with you on criminal background being checked. How good could criminal investigations have been back in the day? Look at some of the thugs, hoodlums and Mafia members we got during those days.

    Unione Siciliana helped many immigrants from Italy adjust to the American way of life. Lots of gangster connections there. As for government hand outs, I think many are out of reach for immigrants of any status. On the other hand, back in the day, there weren’t government hand-outs for anyone. Government hand-outs seemed to have genesis in the 30’s and were greatly increased in the 60’s as part of the Great Society.

    A lot of what I hear from people is dreaming of the good old days rather than actual reality of how things really were.

  30. Laurie M brings up some good points. The current immigration system is abusive to both americans and immigrants. However, abuse does not justify an abusive response. The resolution is an abusive response. It’s unfortunate Laurie M that you don’t like your new neighbors and the way they behave…but freedom means people also have the freedom to be rude to each other. If you can’t take it then you should exercise your freedom to move away…instead of supporting a resolution that tramples on everyone else’s freedom.

  31. Emma

    Hi, Laurie M.

    You apparently have not learned the rules for getting along with the PowerPuff Girls here. Here is what I have learned so far:

    It is racist to worry about unlicensed drivers out on the road alongside your teenager–drivers who likely cannot even read English road signs, judging from the way they drive;

    It is racist to want a clean, uncrowded, quiet neighborhood;

    It is racist to want your children to learn Chinese, Russian, Japanese and other languages that would make them competitive workers in a global economy, rather than to have the schools expend millions on English classes for the children of illegal immigrants;

    It is racist to worry about identity theft, since EVERYONE does it, not just illegal immigrants, so why not allow them to take part as well?

    It is racist to expect people to try to work for change in their own countries, rather than to flee and allow the countries to crumble;

    The (unfortunately) small majority who voted Corey Stewart into office are all racist;

    It is racist to not be willing to absorb an unlimited number of immigrants, legal or illegal, at whatever cost;

    and, finally, it is racist to expect the illegal immigrants to abide by any other law whatsoever that the rest of us have to abide by.

    It took awhile, but now I get it.

  32. Moon-howler

    Emma,

    Actually, no, you still do not get it. Remove your silly obsession with the word ‘racist’ and perhaps we can have a conversation. Your mind is made up about what everyone here thinks apparently so you to pigeon thing–fly by, crap ignorance, and then fly on away.

    Our one common denominator here is that we do not all think the same. We don’t all spout the same rhetoric and we rarely begin a sentence with ‘What part of ___ do you not understand,’ which has to be the ultimate in no-brainer comments.

    Suggestion to make the learning curve a little less steep: ask people how they feel about a certain issue. You will find very quickly that we do not all agree. Interestingly enough, we remain civil and friends.

    Living proof: Medic and I are friends. Who would have thunk it.

  33. Turn PW Blue

    Part of the problem, clearly, is that our Federal government has done precious little to address an issue that is clearly within their domain and left the populace to turn to local and state government for answers. This is a doomed approach from the beginning.

    Immigration is a Federal concern because it needs to be. It crosses local boundaries and state lines. The best way to curtail, control, change (insert whatever word works best here) illegal immigration has to come through changes in Federal law and policy.

    Look at what the resolution *really* does on paper. Illegal immigrants aren’t allowed to use certain county services. Great, little old illegal immigrant grandmothers can’t ride the Blue Bird bus any more. An MS-13 member incarcerated by the County can’t take part in the tatoo removal program (one step in getting *out* of a gang, by the way).

    The biggest area of impact is that all those arrested, detained, pulled over, etc., by the police are now subject to have their citizenship status checked. The result of this has been an extra burden on the PWCPD and the county jail as well as extra cost for housing inmates and those held on detainer who in the past would have been released because the crime they committed was minor. If you read General Order 26.05 (the thing that actually gave birth to the resolution), you’ll find that Chief Deane was already moving down a reasonable path to checking the legal status of those arrested for violent crimes, gang activity, terrorist activity, or who had a previous US-ICE detainer. Missing from this list would be people pulled over for speeding, non-violent misdemeanors, etc.

    But we have the resolution, and we are seeing a migration of illegal (and many legal) immigrants out of Prince William County. And this is where the local approach breaks down and clearly supports the need for comprehensive Federal immigration policy reform.

    Where’d they all go? I’m betting they didn’t leave the country. I’m betting they went some place else in the US. So what have we done? We’ve pawned off our “problem” on someone else. We can sit back and say “It’s not our problem any more,” but we haven’t SOLVED anything. We have given our community a black eye in that Prince William County now has made national news in not all too flattering ways. We’ve divided a community against itself (as seen by some of the threads here and on the Other list). We’ve probably hurt our ability to bounce back quickly from the current economic downturn by making the area inhospitable.

  34. Turn PW Blue

    Emma:

    You must not have listened well in school.

    Here is what I have learned so far:
    It is racist to worry about unlicensed drivers out on the road alongside your teenager–drivers who likely cannot even read English road signs, judging from the way they drive;

    It’s not racist to worry about unlicensed drivers, but it is racist to assume that all of the bad drivers on the road cannot read English or are illegal. I’ve been hit twice in Prince William County. The first time I was rear-ended by a Ford F-150 pickup with the Stars and Bars and a bumper sticker that said “American by birth, Southerner by the grace of God” who thought that me going 45 in a 35 MPH zone was too slow so he’d help me along. The second time was by a 16 year-old who had just gotten her license and was too busy looking at the cute boy mowing his lawn to notice the cars stopped in front of her at a stop light.

    It is racist to want a clean, uncrowded, quiet neighborhood;

    It’s not racist to want a nice neighborhood, but it is racist to assume that only illegal immigrants are unable to maintain a home.

    It is racist to want your children to learn Chinese, Russian, Japanese and other languages that would make them competitive workers in a global economy, rather than to have the schools expend millions on English classes for the children of illegal immigrants;

    More than half of the students enrolled in ESOL in Prince William County are children born in the United States and, thus, US citizens. Also, foreign language programs have been cut not because of ESOL but because Corey Stewart and those before him have felt it more important to fulfill a mantra of cutting taxes than to adequately fund our schools. Prince William County has had the lowest per pupil expenditures among Washington metro schools far longer than we have had the “immigrant problem.”

    It is racist to worry about identity theft, since EVERYONE does it, not just illegal immigrants, so why not allow them to take part as well?

    As you clearly state, identity theft is a problem that extends beyond illegal immigrants. In fact, some of the worst cases of identity theft have been perpetrated by well-to-do white college students of means.

    It is racist to expect people to try to work for change in their own countries, rather than to flee and allow the countries to crumble;

    Much like the Pilgrims worked for change in their country before they came here? Or the Jews who fled to our shores from Nazi Germany? Or the Eastern Europeans fleeing totalitarianism? Or the Italians? Or the Irish escaping famine? America has long been a land of promise and opportunity. The Statue of Liberty, which greeted my immigrant forbearers carries Emma Lazarus’s poem “The New Colossus” which closes with:

    “Give me your tired, your poor,
    Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
    The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
    Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
    I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

    Who are you to deny the promise of America to this generation of huddled masses yearning to breathe free? If this is not the promise of America, then we have truly lost our way.

    The (unfortunately) small majority who voted Corey Stewart into office are all racist;

    Glad you recognize that winning a small majority of the small portion of voters who actually showed up does not really comprise a mandate (nor does it make Corey Stewart the “preeminent” Republican in Northern Virginia). Voting for Stewart does not make one a racist, but falling for the race baiting politics behind the “No Illegal Immigration” slogan just might.

    It is racist to not be willing to absorb an unlimited number of immigrants, legal or illegal, at whatever cost;

    See, there you go lumping legal immigrants into the mix. It’s hard to keep hearing “This is all about the law–we’re against people here illegally” when the conversation keeps coming around to legal immigrants as well. Immigrants built this nation and continue to do so. The free movement of labor is essential in a truly open capitalist economy. It’s either all about the law or its not. If it’s not, then there is no wonder the questions of race enter in.

    and, finally, it is racist to expect the illegal immigrants to abide by any other law whatsoever that the rest of us have to abide by.

    Justice is to be blind. At least that is what we say. All should abide by the law. The question here, though, is how to best enforce the law (which in the case of immigration is not local or even state ordinance, but is Federal).

    It took awhile, but now I get it.

    No, I don’t think you really do.

  35. Just CAUSE

    TurnPW blue- You are soo right. I was reading an article on the other side that said that an MS-13 gang memeber was arrested in Maryland for a serious crime ( attempted MURDER), only to be let go on a $2500.00 bond and he never appeared in court as he “promised”..and then was captuered in a differnt County! I will be honest, I am concerned and frightened about this…Obviously they are leaving….but to another local county..This really scares me…now I have no idea how I feel about any of this anyore, part of me wants to send them all packing and then part of me feels bad for the ones that have families….uuugghh but If I have to chose between the safety of my family over the safety of deportation..My family will always come first….

  36. Emma

    I respect your points, TurnPWBlue, but you and many others here don’t seem to see any problem AT ALL with illegal immigration, don’t see that there are any costs to bear from it whatsoever that anyone should object to. I would really be interested to see you concede even one point on this, but you won’t. I suspect that you live in an area that has been totally unaffected–a neighborhood with an HOA or some similar enclave. I do not have that advantage.

    And not all immigrants are “huddled masses.” Some of them import their gangs and their criminals–some of them flew planes into the World Trade Center, Pentagon and a Pennsylvania field a few years ago. Maybe you are able to forget all about that now and be complacent, but I am way to close to that event to EVER forget what some “immigrants” intended for our country on that day, and how much that is still costing us almost 7 years later. Criminals MUST have their immigration status checked, and if the Feds won’t do it, the local governments must in order to protect our nation.

    And you cannot deny that many people here pull the race card frequently. What are we supposed to do, give all Latino illegal entrants a pass on everything just because they comprise the vast majority of illegal entrants into our area? I hardly think so.

  37. Emma,

    It sounds like all your problems are because you don’t like the way immigrants are behaving. Then you conveniently pick up this big tool in your toolbox called ‘immigration law’. But deep down inside you really don’t care about immigration law. I’m sure that if the feds gave amnesty tomorrow, all of your frustrations would remain.

    The only thing I can say is…thats life. Demographics change. They always have in a country like ours. If you don’t like it…move to someplace else. If you can’t move, make the best of the situation. No one is obligated to act in ways that are pleasing to you.

    It’s true that immigrants commit crime. Just like a percentage of americans do. To try to use that fact as a means to expel a whole group of people is pretty bigoted. If you fear for your safety, buy a firearm, and practice with it. We have very good concealed carry freedom in virginia, so there’s no reason why you can’t be responsible for protecting yourself.

    When it comes to immigrants who might be terrorists, we are facing one of the most important questions in our nation’s history. How do we provide internal security without turning into a police state? We can’t. It looks impossible to me to be free and safe from terrorism at the same time. So then what do we do? Ultimately we have to try to understand why our nation is under threat, and work to remove the threat.

  38. redawn

    Mackie,

    WOW! That was powerful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BRAVO!

    “How do we provide internal security without turning into a police state? We can’t.”

    I think this is my biggest concern and to say that we can’t? Scares me even more.

  39. TWINAD

    Turn PW Blue:

    Wow! “Turn PW Blue” for Supervisor! You are extremely eloquent and I couldn’t agree with you more…PLEASE speak to the Board on Tuesday night!

  40. Moon-howler

    I would vote for Turn PW Blue for just about anything. I can always rely on his information to be correct.

    Mackie, excellent. And we really can’t provide guarantees without becoming a police state. On 9-11, that was one of my first thoughts- we can never really be totally free again. In that respect, 9-11 was very successful for a borderless enemy.

    Emma, there is no free lunch. Of course illegal immigration has a price. I am trying to assess if all the people today who are illegal (and who we do not KNOW are illegal) were suddenly made legal. Where would the cost be that different?

    I don’t think it would be.

  41. How do you know “Blue” is a “him”? Or did I miss something? : )

  42. TWINAD

    Turn PW Blue is obviously a rational and thoughtful thinker. If only all were…

  43. Moon-howler

    K,

    I know from the OTHER.

  44. Ah! Thanks, MH.

    “Turn PW Blue is obviously a rational and thoughtful thinker. If only all were…”

    TWINAD, are you trying to answer my question by telling me you know Blue is male because he’s rational? : )

  45. TWINAD

    Kgott…

    No, not at all! :)))). There are several rational and thoughtful women posters…and I don’t know if Turn PW Blue is male or female! I think you, Marie, Elena, Alanna, MH and many others all fit the bill!

  46. Moon-howler

    Thank you for including me, Twinad.

    For Firedancer:
    http://www.searchingwolf.com/howl.wav

  47. Turn PW Blue

    Thanks for the kind words, all. I’ve actually been very impressed by a number of the thoughtful and reasonable posts (on both sides of the issue) that I’ve seen posted here. Turn PW Blue is a male (and has stated such on the Other list which is how some here would know). If my schedule allows, I may get to meet some of you on Sunday. While I have politics in my blood, I also have two young children who like having Daddy home, and a wife who has no patience for politicians.

    Emma–
    You haven’t read enough of what I’ve posted here and elsewhere to make the judgement that I see nothing wrong with illegal immigrants. I *do* have a problem with illegal immigration in broad terms. I just don’t think “The Resolution” is the answer. While some will say it is a cop-out, immigration is a Federal issue and our anger and energy is misplaced unless we are focusing it on the President and our representatives in Congress. Until there is comprehensive immigration reform at the Federal level, anything we do at the local level is simply polishing a turd.

    That said, the criteria Chief Deane outlined in his General Order make sense to me. Local police should not be agents of the Federal immigration services. Filling our jails with people who were caught speeding and forcing us to ship off inmates to other jurisdictions because we’re out of space makes no sense. The police shouldn’t, however, turn a blind eye to violent offenders, gang members, and those who are already wanted by ICE. We also need to go after those who profit most from illegal immigration. It’s not the immigrants themselves but the businesses that hire them. While there are some who claim that illegal immigrants come to the United States to live off our social welfare programs, most actually come for jobs. If we go after employers (and go after them hard), the supply of jobs available for illegal immigrants will dry up and with it the siren song of prosperity that goes with it. Too much of our rhetoric is focused on the people who come here illegally with very little said about those who make the United States so attractive to them.

    While you are correct that 9/11 terrorists were foreigners, you are wrong in your implication about them being illegal immigrants. According to the 9/11 Commission, none of them entered the country by illegally crossing a lang border. All initially entered the country on tourist or student visas. Some of them overstayed their visas, but quite a few of them were here legally at the time they carried out the attacks. Adding the spectre of 9/11 to this discussion is a red herring.

  48. Turn PW Blue

    Emma:

    One more story for you and why the resolution scares me.

    The house across the court from me is home to an Hispanic family. The mother and father speak a little English, but their middle school aged daughter is fluent in both Spanish and English. I have no idea if they are legal or illegal, and I really don’t care because they are great neighbors and have been for the two or so years they’ve lived in the neighborhood.

    A few weeks ago, when walking my kids home from school my wife noticed two PWC police cars in the court in front of our house. She also noticed our neighbor and her daughter talking with the officers in what seemed to be a friendly conversation. They kept looking up into the trees and into the air around the court. Being a bit curious, my wife walked over to ask if anything was wrong. The officer said they were looking for a missing bird–my neighbors parrot. My wife said, “Wow, I didn’t know you guys would come out to look for lost pet.” The officers didn’t say anything, but looked down at the ground sheepishly. My neighbor chimed in, “They aren’t here for the bird. They’re here because of us.” Apparently, someone saw two Hispanic women walking around the neighborhood “looking suspicious” and called the police. The police, of course, had to respond and were a bit embarrassed to find it was a middle-aged woman and her daughter looking for a lost pet.

    This is what the resolution has reduced us to. We are calling the police on our neighbors.

  49. Emma

    Fair enough, PW,but I did not even imply that the 9-11 terrorists were illegal immigrants. I was simply addressing your “huddled masses” point. Not everyone who crosses our borders means well, and we have every right to protect our own security by controlling our borders–that is not a red herring, as you say.

    That being said, I do not believe that makes the US a selfish nation trying to deny foreigners a better way of life. The US is the largest donor of foreign aid, giving over 120 BILLION dollars a year to various global causes. U.S. foundations gave more — in money, time, goods and expertise — than 11 of the 22 developed-country governments each gave in 2005, and U.S. private voluntary organizations totaled more than the governments of Japan, the United Kingdom, Germany and France each.

    I definitely agree that we need to go after the employers who hire illegal entrants–they are the ones who stand to profit most from what sometimes is close to slave labor, and sometimes I think they are the ones who defend illegal immigration most vociferously.

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