Here it is folks, the most recent Washington Post article that a couple of posters have been clamoring about!
What struck me about this article was that it sounds like a small group of citizens actively dealt with neighborhood issues. What I am wondering is this….was it the resolution or their dedicated committment to their neighborhood that fixed the most egregious problems? Is it a success that now many hispanics have left, were they “illegal” or simply too scared to stay in PWC? Could these neighborhood issues have been dealt with through better means than HSM? Could we have formed a community/government task force to promote positive solutions instead of the immigration resolution which has proved to be so divisive? It sounds like there was an opportunity that was missed, and instead we have the serious repercussions of double the foreclosure rate of surrounding counties and businesses, once thriving, now struggling under the threat of bankruptcy.
The forclosure rates are a result of bad loans to “individuals” who made bad personal financial decisions. It is a fact that a large percentage of those bad loan decisions were made along ethnic lines of communication, between individuals who did not want to deal in business between people of different ethnic groups lines. This phenomenon happened across a range of different ethnic groups, primarily those “groups” that have not benn in theis country very long and who as a “group” do not believe in our ethics system as much as they believe in the ethics systems of the large variety of countries from which they came recently.
Regardless, these loans and impact of these loans had a large element of “illegal” loanshark behavior, and the perpetrators need to be held accontable to the community for reducing it’s property values, deflating its community worth, and reducing the value of the US dollar, against foreign currencies to the point we cannot buy oil except at an expensive price.
Solution: Set up a mortgage supplement paid for by a class action lawsuit on these mortgage loaning “individuals”, hold them legally responsible for cheating and baiting people, and use the proceeds from these class action lawsuits, to supplement the costs of the mortgage ARM rates.
The “illegal” immigration resolution has been devisive because there are people who believe we sould give everyone a handout even if they are not legally entitled to be here or deserve this handout (at our labor and tax expense) because they feel sorry for them. The diviseness has occurred because their are some people who would rather support law-breaking than support the general welfare of the community, for “legal” residents, primarily because they feel sorry for “minority groups”. There are no GROUP RIGHTS, only individual rights. There is also only legal and “illegal” there is no “in between” no matter how much you wish it to be so, and no matter how much you want to help one ethnic group, while hurting another, or hurting the legitimate and “legal” poor. Active citizens stood up because their was something wrong about looking the other way, while the community got worse and worse, declined more and more, and became more and more corrupt, and lawless. I see nothing wrong with any community member standing up to do what is right when the elected government lets them dowm. That is a basic American individual right, whether you like what they do or not, what they are doing is “legal”.
What that article represents to me is the same neighborhood problems that made these otherwise well-meaning people vulnerable to Gospel Greg and FAIR, exploiting their anxiety for their own agendas (anti-immigrant hate and political opportunism).
Of course, it is much more pleasant to read with none of the hate and a heck of a lot less prejudice. But it’s just a sad reminder of how simply these problems could have been solved with a little bit of leadership and a little bit of courage.
Leadership would have approached neighborhood problems with neighborhood solutions, like enforcing housing codes.
Courage would have come in handy when FAIR and Gospel Greg came to town, saying no to lobbyists and political opportunists who want to twist people’s understandable anxieties into a hateful and divisive mob mentality that I’m sure neither one of them are proud to be associated with today.
I feel really bad for them both. Ladies, if you are reading this, those who know you best also know you are good people and nothing like the hate-monger who has been speaking for you.
Except for the first paragraph, I thought this was a reasonable article that allowed them to make their case. The first paragraph where Chris said she was delighted to no longer see illegal immigrants of course leads one to conclude that what she really means is that she’s happy to no longer see latinos.
Regardless of what they say, PWC will have a hard time shaking that belief among outsiders. There was a missed opportunity that will be very difficult to make up. When the government was busy passing the resolution, at the same time there should have been a parallel effort to reach out to immigrants, to publicly demonstrate that PWC is a welcoming community. But that would have been impossible with HSM calling the shots.
There was always the question of after kicking out the “illegals”, then what? Does PWC have a vision statement for what kind of county the government and residents want to create? A dramatic turn of events has occurred….now what will guide the “reconstruction”?
Michael said on 21 Apr 2008 at 11:10 pm: There is also only legal and “illegal” there is no “in between” no matter how much you wish it to be so.
Michael – we went round and round about this on the other site, so need to rehash our same arguments, but I believe there is an “in between”.
Until a means is provided to easily determine a “legal” person from and “illegal” person, all you can do as a citizen is identify community decay, financial instability, and crime committed. This can and is done in the rule of law resolution blind to a person’s ethnic group, gender, race or religion, but folwws only one line, the individual commits a crime and is identifed then, as having commited another crime “illegal” status and ignoring our immigration law for self and personal gain. IT just happens that a large number of people who commit these crimes of “illegal” status are of several different ethnic group populations in proportion to the ease of access to remain in the US under an illegal entry scheme. Frankly those of us who support this resolution don’t care what group you self-identify with. We are interested in having only “legal” Americans, regardless of race, gender, religion or ethnic group, and we have continuously stated this position, only to have it twisted, distorted and “rephrased” to suit the agendas of people who support “illegal” immigration and self-identify with ethnic groups, ethnic group rights and ethnic group privilige.
There is no in between no matter how much you wish it so. We set up immigration law for one purpose, to control immigration numbers and allow our nation to absorb the growth. We cannot ignore that law, and think there is some middle ground that allows more than what the law is intended to allow. That is just social engineering non-sense. I will contimue to go round and round with anyone who, does not understand the basic essence of why immigration law exists in the first place, to protect its citizens from un-reasonable growth, and cultural subversion.
Guess Ronald Reagan was part of that social engineering non-sense then. Addressing immigration law every 10 years is not sensible. We have labor markets that fluctuate and our immigration policy must be able to accomodate those fluctuations. This has not happened which accounts for the situation that we are in today.
Give me a break. If we enforced some type of zoning law to prevent overcrowding and such the anti-bvbl group would say we were targeting immigrants. Same argument, different reason! Manassas tried a similar zoning enforcement referring to relatives, and that got shot down. So tell me how you would fix the neighborhood decay, and not look as though you are targeting immigrants? Give me a solution. Anyone can complain or find fault with a process. The trick is to provide a better solution that solves the problem, but if you ignore the problem then it’s not a solution.
Michael, unreasonable growth I am willing to consider, although I suspect that proponents mean growth of non-white, non-European residents. Cultural subversion sounds xenophobic. Culture is an ever-evolving reality. Newcomers add vitality to a culture. I never could understand what is it about “others” that is so un-American, except that they speak different languages. SO WHAT??? Passing a resolution making English the official language, for example, is one of the stupidest, most xenophobic wastes of paper imaginable.
SecondAlamo said on 21 Apr 2008 at 11:46 pm: So tell me how you would fix the neighborhood decay, and not look as though you are targeting immigrants? Give me a solution.
Good point for discussion, SA. Sorry that I have to hit the sack…
Admin said: We have labor markets that fluctuate and our immigration policy must be able to accomodate those fluctuations.
Admin, I agree wholeheartedly.
SA,
The reality is that immigrants have always lived in crowded quarters, I know mine did. The question is what is too crowded? How does it impact the community? Is is just irritating, or is it a danger? Maybe that is why we should have had a task force instead of the over reaching resolution.
Hey, inquiring minds still want to know 🙂
Firedancer,
You bring up HSM quite often, but how about the impact of the tactics generated by Mexicans Without Borders? It was the public and vocal protests and demands orchestrated by MWB that turned many PWC citizens against the illegals. It sure got my attention when I heard that people who were in this country illegally were in the street making demands on the legal citizens!
Elena,
Perfect example of why your argument that problems could have been handled by other than the Resolution won’t work. I ask how do we handle overcrowding, and you basically reply, what overcrowding? You force us to take drastic measures because you will never work within existing guidelines, just as you won’t respect our laws. You will never agree that the problems we detail are problems in your mind even though the entire nation has been griping about the very same problems.
Just because people live in grass huts in some countries doesn’t mean that we should allow those conditions here. We make the rules, and that is what prevents us from becoming a third world has been. If people want to live four generations to a ‘single family home’ then move to Mexico, but that’s not the standard by which Americans have built their communities. But as you suggest, some groups simply have no standards to live by, and that is the source of our problem.
SA,
What are you talking about? I said that the reality is that immigrants have always lived in overcrowded conditions, historical FACT, I THEN ask, how do we deal with which overcrowdings are a real danger, what is too crowded? Is it a couple of families, or is it 20 single men living in one house? I would venture to say, the 20 single men living in one house, or the boarding house should get first priority over two to three families living in one single family home. Your response is EXACTLY why there should have been a task force created, you know, something innovative and forward thinking, not draconian, like the resolution.
Really, the entire nation is griping? Hmmm, why is it that the only candidates left standing running for President are all about finding the middle ground to immigration?
Oh, please, I won’t respect “our” laws. To the core of my being I believe in Thomas Jefferson and John Locke’s premise of Natural Law, the very basis for our Declaration of Independence, I believe the very soul of our nation is built upon the preamble of that document.
Elena,
Then why are you so quick to hand over our nation to people who could care less about our country? Why would you bestow rights on individuals who don’t deserve them, and would run back across the border when it was convenient. How many legal American citizens can just walk away from a legal contract for a house? The illegals do it on a daily basis, and just start up somewhere else. How nice that they aren’t obligated to anyone or the nation, but only to themselves and their race. Pretty damn self centered I’d say!
I really hope “Second Alamo” (i.e “This is a war we’re in, let’s fight it like one”) isn’t who Elena thinks he is. If so, the PWC Republican party has really lost it’s way. Depressing.
WHWH,
Ok, this time in English please!
SA,
Once again………What? How am I handing over my nation? Are you serious? Are you 100% Native American? As far as I can tell, my family emmigrated to this great country, didn’t fit in right away, but within a generation, did fairly well for themselves. You need to get out of the Cave SA, you are being fooled by the puppeteer. There is no invasion!
Geez, there is no winning with you people. You make the County unfriendly for immigrants, legal and illegal, to live in, they can’t sell their homes, so they leave in a depressed real estate market and now you COMPLAIN! Isn’t that what you wanted, all the “illegals” and their “abettors” gone? Are they suppose to wait around while the hatred ferments and grows? Should they risk getting pulled over, detained, and sent to jail for being here undocumented while their family cowers in fear? You won SA, people left, too afraid to be in this county? You assume because they left their homes to forclosure they didn’t care. Maybe this is only a hispanic “ethos”, not a white american trait, is that what you are implying?
Maybe I’m just tired SA, but you are really pissing me off tonight. Furthermore, you say “run across the border”, I see, it all comes back to hispanics doesn’t it?
SA,
Here is the translation, are you Corey or are you Tom?
Elena,
If the shoe fits, wear it! I’m glad you’re pissed off, because now you know how I feel when I see that disgusting billboard in Manassas!
SA,
Hmmm, maybe you enjoy me being pissed off at you as a little payback?
Where are all the ‘I want to be a US Citizen’ banners that I know MWB must have misplaced? Gee, out of all the arguments I hear, that one never seems to get any attention. On their list of ‘demands’ the word citizenship never appears. Why is that?
SA,
You still haven’t answered my question? You aren’t going to get anyone here to bite at MWB, we aren’t MWB. Besides, I think everyone else is asleep 🙂
It is getting late, but doesn’t any of the points I bring up have any connection? I mean if you have seen what has happened to areas in PWC I don’t know how you could possibly condone the conditions. It’s as if people have trashed what you worked so hard to obtain, and then they just laugh in your face. It’s extremely frustrating, and removes the incentive to want to improve anything for it will only be degraded if something isn’t done.
SA, give it up. Elena is too smart, too classy for your tactics. Go back to Texas, Tom, and play your cowboys and Indians game there.
Re: enforcing zoning laws without the “appearance” of targeting undocumented workers.
Easy. Take a nice chunk of change from the $4.2 MILLION budgeted (so far) for the resolution. Hire an additional 50, 75, 100 — whatever it takes — INSPECTORS (not police) to respond to reported zoning violations, routinely PATROL problem neighborhoods and initiate inspections and complatins proactively, and follow-up to make sure the resident complies.
RIght now, neighborhood services is seriously lacking inspectors and, even when a problem in reported, it’s weeks before an inspector checks and there is rarely any follow-up to ensure compliance.
In my neighborhood (western PWC) of $500,000 homes (well, more like $350, 000 -$400,000 given the drop in values across the board), we have no overcrowded homes as far as I know. What we do have is at least six homes — all owned by long-time residents who happen to be white — with reported zoning violations that have never been resolved. We’ve got examples of everything that’s happening in Westgate and Sudley, minus the salsa music and overcrowding. We’ve got one house with seven registered junk cars sprawled all over their yard. Another house with gutters that have been hanging from the side of the house for three years — with a ladder standing up against the house just as long. There’s the house with 40′ high tree lying across their front yard since the day a tornado came through two years ago. We’ve got one family that moved into their home, promptly erected a 6′ high fence around their acre+, and are using their backyard to store debris hauled in from construction sites (they own a family contracting business) and construction equipment on TOP of their septic field.
Shall I go on, because I can.
Each of these violations has been reported many times by many people, and nothing has been done.
This is a problem of zoning enforcement, not illegal immigration. Imagine the backlog that the county could clean out if they were only able to hire additional inspectors.
The agency can’t be accused of targeting certain neighborhoods or ethnic groups as long as it can say that it responds to EVERY complaint it gets, everywhere in the county, within 72 hours, and then mandates compliance.
I know I want somebody in the county to sit on my neighbors until they do what they have to in order to comply with the zoning code. That’s not an unreasonable expectation for ANY neighborhood.
Our subdivision is one of the older ones so, no, we don’t have an HOA. We rely on the county to enforce its zoning regulations. The Rule of Law Resolution is an awfully expensive and inefficient way to go about handling zoning violations, you’d have to agree. So you get the families to leave (legal or illegal)– and the neighborhood is left with empty houses (minus the cars, I would presume) that are magnets for vandalism and who knows what else. Who’s going to mow those lawns this summer when the grass is 2′ high? I’d recommend against anyone taking on that dangerous job as a community service project .
If we’ve got zoning problems in the county, then let’s increase the budget for that department and handle the problem directly. $4.2-6 MILLION would go a very long way!
Casual,
Great commentary, I agree 100%!
NotGreg,
SA still hasn’t answered my question, but I have a sneaky suspicion 🙂
SA,
You are only outgoing, you are unable to see that I recognize there are issues, but those are “demographic” changes, one that neighborhoods have experienced for eons. My dad’s neighborhood use to be all Jewish, but the neighborhood changed, it is no longer Jewish, and hasn’t been for decades. It was a poorer part of Boston, and they too saw a demographic change, but it wasn’t the “INVASION OF ILLEGAL ALIENS”, coming soon to an IMAX Theater near you.
CO,
You make a very good argument. I agree, it’s just that the single issue of overcrowding brings additional problems of parking and such, and has never been addressed as far as I know. I recall Manassas trying to enforce rules on overcrowding and they couldn’t. Even if you apply the rule fairly, there are still lawyers waiting to pounce. So if you can’t prevent overcrowding then you might as well try the alternative and reduce the number to zero.
Does anyone have the courage to discuss why we never hear demands for citizenship?
That’s it, I’m out of here.
Commence the illegal love connection ; )
I’m afraid there are still lawyers ready to pounce. Surely the 20 guys in the house would have been a clear violation. And what about the urinating in public, was the resolution the best way to resolve that issue? Quick note, from my calculations the loss of property value on Lafayette Ave.(110 homes) was over 7 million dollars. If they want to take credit for the removal of the bunk/boarding houses through the implementation of the resolution, it’s only logical that they also take credit for a portion of the 7 million dollar drop in home values.
SA,
Overcrowding is a separate issue, because I don’t know of a community yet that’s been able come up with a law that can stand up to legal challenge. As long as the home complies with the laws that ARE on the books (no illegal basement bedrooms, no illegal second kitchens, legal square footage/person, etc.), it’s tough. I don’t know the solution. I know that when my grandparents came from Scotland in the 1920s, they lived with my Aunt’s family in a tiny house until my grandfather was able to get a job and a place for himself and his family. That’s unique to the America story and it continues with the wave of immigrants, except now these families are living in suburban homes instead of the ethnic urban communities our ancestors enjoyed.
Which brings me back to my suggestion that we GREATLY increase the county budget in the area of neighborhood services. I don’t know how many lawyers get involved with suits in cases where the zoning violations (housing, yard, cars, noise, etc) are so cut and dry. 🙂 Again, enforce them across the board to avoid any suggestion of targeting.
It’s late. Good night! 🙂
SA,
I know a girl that desperately wants to be an American. In fact, she really felt she already was one. She was interested in jrROTC and I believe would have made an excellent soldier. But now she’s waiting in a third world country that she barely remembers, not being educated in a line that might process her in the next 18months to 10 years. It’s pathetic. Additionally, she missed a cut-off date to have her status adjusted here by just 3 weeks.
SA, How would you know if anyone wanted to be a citizen? Have you actually talked to immigrants one on one? Many want to be, some are already citizens and some, yes, are just on the move, following the jobs. It isn’t a matter of courage. Why be so confrontational?
CO, you make some excellent points. The Westgate area can moan and groan all it wants but there are other communities that are hit by baaaddd neighbors of the home-grown variety. I don’t think it is a bit easier to tolerate them. I have experienced imported and home-grown bad neighbors. I cannot say one is worse than the other.
SA says, “Manassas tried a similar zoning enforcement referring to relatives, and that got shot down.” Manassas tried to define family, just as they do with homosexual and non-traditional families. How DARE anyone try to define family? The result was a spanking from HUD.
If you want to focus on over-crowding, then look at fire and safety codes which should be more objective. You can’t put 15 people safely in a two bedroom home. Yes, the expensive housing in this area is a problem which is why we need to fight for affordable housing as some groups like SALT, Habitat for Humanity and Catholics for Housing are.
Finally, SA, if you have ever worked with an immigrant community, you would know most want to assimilate and become citizens. People don’t want to be “the stranger” or “the other” especially in a country that is foreign to them….or in the case of the Native Americans, a country that has been taken away from them.
SA,
Your logic is false because there is no path to citizenship like there was just a few years ago. You assume that all illegal immigrants DON’T want to be citizens, how DO you know that? There you and I must agree, I too want a path to legalization/citizenship, or a sane worker visa program that allows for labor during a housing boom or other economic circumstance that requires additional labor.
Why are you on such a high horse? Do you believe your ancestors came here to simply be American citizens, or did they come here for a better life and more opportunities? Isn’t this country built on the ideal of capitalism and freedom?
I’m still asking BTW, you haven’t answered my question 😉
I will point out we only have the word of folks that we know like to embellish the story.
We have no pictures of the overcrowding.
The issue is the cops stopping the brown people.
If you ar an undocumented brit, canadian, even jamaican, you will never get stopped by the cops.
They dont even want to give the cops cameras.
Elena,
It looks like getting an answer from SA is just like trying to get answer out of The Patriot on the other. What a crock. You are wasting your “pearls of wisdom” on SA. 😉
I just have to wonder how the women in this article are going to feel when the grass starts growing up around these houses. Or how about when their home values plummet even farther because the foreclosures will drive down prices. Will they still let their children play outside when the vacant houses become a breeding ground for rats? Sure they are happy that their neighborhood is so quiet now, but I can’t help feel that this is the calm before the storm for these ladies. They have traded one set of problems for another.
And as far as having teachers, police officers and fire fighters move in, keep dreaming. With all the money that we are spending on The Resolution, we can’t afford to hire more of those folks or pay them what they are worth. Today the Hispanics are being driven out by The Resolution; tomorrow it will be the teachers, police officers and fire fighters.
Vacant homes can easily become crack houses as well. And they tend to attract teens who want to pary, vandalism and graffiti….where is their long-term thinking?
“party” that is.
# SecondAlamo said on 22 Apr 2008 at 1:13 am:
“Does anyone have the courage to discuss why we never hear demands for citizenship?”
SA, don’t you hear the demands for a path to legalization?
Elena, if Corey Stewart has the time to spend blogging, he is definitely not doing his job, or one of them.
Hey folks even SA has to sleep! I’ve read the responses about wanting to be citizens, and I’m sure many do want to become one. However, it’s just that the word citizenship is rarely discussed. I hear griping about deportation, police stops, and breaking of families, but no public moaning about lack of citizenship options. The other issue is that you show great compassion for those coming hear illegally, and yet practically none for those waiting in line as did your ancestors. Where is the fairness in that? And business signs only in Spanish? That sure makes me feel like they want to be one of us! If they were smart they would have not isolated their customers to the Latino only crowd.
I must defend Corey Stewart, I am not he, and he is not me. I am speaking as someone who simply doesn’t want my surroundings and community to be degraded for any reason. Be it people or crime, we have to take action or suffer the consequences. I agree that community problems aren’t isolated to illegals, but their lack of adherence to written or unwritten community norms (for this country) coupled with the fact they are here illegally makes them a top target for action. Especially when it is almost impossible to prevent the overcrowding and loitering. No group of American men have ever been allowed to loiter in store parking lots yet assumed illegals are even supported in their action. Why, as an American, am I subject to rules and regs where they are not?
The house values were going to go down due to the GREED of the banks, real estate agents, brokers, etc. I think with hard work of dedicated citizens of the community revitalization will happen.
Patience is a virtue. 😉
Ruby,
I AGREE 100% also, the “flip to the flop” ( houses) is that brought the value of the nieghborhood down too…..
Ruby, the garden tour for the native plant society is this weekend – details in the MJM earlier this week.
I think the biggest improvement to the appearance of Westgate would be having more gardens in the front yards. In the fifties and sixties homeowners were more concerned about lawns. Now they want a mixture of plantings. Too many houses still have a sterile look. Not only do gardens improve the appearance of neighborhoods but they are a way for homeowners to be outside, curbside communicating with their neighbors who use the sidewalks. More communication, more barriers broken down, more friends made…and to a gardener, more people on whom to pawn off the surplus of plants.
Second Alamo, don’t you have a life? go to church, go for a walk or spend time with your family and friends, but please do something productive instead!
“what goes around, comes around”