Here it is folks, the most recent Washington Post article that a couple of posters have been clamoring about!
What struck me about this article was that it sounds like a small group of citizens actively dealt with neighborhood issues. What I am wondering is this….was it the resolution or their dedicated committment to their neighborhood that fixed the most egregious problems? Is it a success that now many hispanics have left, were they “illegal” or simply too scared to stay in PWC? Could these neighborhood issues have been dealt with through better means than HSM? Could we have formed a community/government task force to promote positive solutions instead of the immigration resolution which has proved to be so divisive? It sounds like there was an opportunity that was missed, and instead we have the serious repercussions of double the foreclosure rate of surrounding counties and businesses, once thriving, now struggling under the threat of bankruptcy.
“The house values were going to go down due to the GREED of the banks, real estate agents, brokers, etc. I think with hard work of dedicated citizens of the community revitalization will happen.
Patience is a virtue. ”
The traditional suburban landscape is going to go through a very big, yet gradual change in the coming years. More and more people are moving back into cities or urban settings and abandoning the traditional suburban developments. Expect this abandonment to increase as fuel costs rise further and further (and they will…global peak oil production IS a reality). Community activism will only do so much to keep up appearances. Fact is, the poorer will move further out (ethnicity irrelevant) – a reverse gentrification of the burbs akin to what happened to the cities about 40-50 years ago.
Revitalization is a pipe dream at best, even with construction of MP’s new “old town” and any hopes of establishing more and more “lifestyle centers.” Maybe zoning enforcement was the way to go, maybe not. Regardless, we’re in the soup now and no amount of community activism will hold off what is coming – the burbs are slowly decaying. And that decay will not be unique to PWC.
Censored,
I will be there. I always grow a few veggies and plant new bulbs each year. There had been an effort. Unfortunately not all are willing to talk to their neighbor or the ability. This is very unfortunate. Zoning information has been distributed in both langues according to what I read on the OTHER some time ago.
Will I get to see you there?
Second Alamo, do us all a favor and get a life.
God bless.
with regard to the article, if you look at just the article and nothing else, the citizens did the most work. However the article should not have been about the resolution but the citizens. the article was poorly titled. The resolution is working in other ways; such as reduced ESOL attendance and picking up the illegals on the streets. They run like cockroaches when a cruizer shows up at 7-11, it’s hilarious.
Ruby, I may go. I’ve got too many plants as it is but I still like to see how people have landscaped their yards.
I can appreciate Not Me, Bubba’s comment about moving to the city (and getting away from all the lawn maintenance) but don’t think many people will be able to afford the move. The burbs do have the abiliity to become slummier, no doubt in my mind. They are far too beige for my taste. And I’ll fess up to having the ability to paint my house any color but it’s still taupe. Styles become dated, even faux styles. And when large tracts of similar houses are built, communities can be stuck with a large, outdated housing supply. We’ve had neo-colonial, neo-farmhouse, neo-mansions with their too busy facades. We’ll probably have neo-craftsman style next…but the economy may slow that down. Older cities and towns “work” because there were a variety of housing styles and sizes.
I watched those women, one in particular, work very hard for the past year or so. I think the committment was there long before HSM. HSM was just the first thing to come along that appeared to validate some of their concerns. Personnally, I don’t think they needed or now need HSM to continue this work. They are acting as an HOA as the County is very short of resources to do this work.
Hats off to Chris Pannell for her hard work. Too bad the writer included GL as it does color her efforts somewhat – I base that on above comments touting “logical conclusions”.
“The first paragraph where Chris said she was delighted to no longer see illegal immigrants of course leads one to conclude that what she really means is that she’s happy to no longer see latinos.” I find this comment unfounded and unfair. It would not hold up in court. Sometime you can be so tolerant that you are intolerant and which side you are on is immaterial.
I simply saw a women concerned about her investment and rightfully so.
Hmmm. I just thought about my last sentence: Older cities and towns “work” because there were a variety of housing styles and sizes.
Do you think that is the main problem with suburban developments particularly in lieu of the sub-prime lending mess? Suburban tracts had only a few models and they were generally within the same price range. Usually, people would be buying a home near others with similar incomes and probably similar educational levels. Sub-prime lending created a free-for-all and a new mix to many neighborhoods. I don’t have that problem in my neighborhood as it’s always been a mix of incomes, educational levels, and philosophies on home maintenance. How about your neighborhoods? A mix? More homogeneous? Are people frightened when a new element is added? Different race, different income level, different nationality, different educational level, different sexual orientation?
“Too bad the writer included GL as it does color her efforts somewhat – I base that on above comments touting “logical conclusions”.
You know you make an EXCELLENT point here. Every damn time I pick up the post they only seem to interview two people – GL for the anti-illegal-immigrant POV and Nancy Lyall of MWB for the pro-immigrant perspective. Two freaking HUGE extremes. MWB does not represent me or my views and neither does HSM.
It would be nice if they could perhaps expand on their pool of resources for commenatry when detailing/reporting this issue. Frankly I am sick to death of the HSM vs. MWB pi*sing contest the Post seems to keep perpetuating.
Hmmm. I just thought about my last sentence: Older cities and towns “work” because there were a variety of housing styles and sizes.
Do you think that is the main problem with suburban developments particularly in lieu of the sub-prime lending mess? Suburban tracts had only a few models and they were generally within the same price range. Usually, people would be buying a home near others with similar incomes and probably similar educational levels. Sub-prime lending created a free-for-all and a new mix to many neighborhoods. I don’t have that problem in my neighborhood as it’s always been a mix of incomes, educational levels, and philosophies on home maintenance. How about your neighborhoods? A mix? More homogeneous? Are people frightened when a new element is added? Different race, different income level, different nationality, different educational level, different sexual orientation?”
Excellent topic for a new thread…..I can say a lot, but do not wish to sidetrack this topic any more than I have…
And FWIW IMHO – “modern” urban planning (what a joke) does nothing to bind a community and will be an essential component of the fall of suburbia in the coming years.
The best thing we can do here on Anti is basicially grant each some of our time but not let EITHER group dominate. They are really not much different. Both polarizing which is pointless.
SA,
I think many of us have spoken out about how hard it is to get in line because it is very difficult to get documentation to come here, regardless of where you are from. If you are from Mexico or Central American countries it is almost impossible.
There are so many topics involved. Each is like another layer of on an onion. You uncover one thing and another pops up.
I don’t think anyone is satisfied with the way things are now. However, there are ways to settle problems and ways not to settle problems. Detente makes more sense to me than nuking those with whom I disagree.
Elivs writes:
“The resolution is working in other ways; such as reduced ESOL attendance and picking up the illegals on the streets. They run like cockroaches when a cruizer shows up at 7-11, it’s hilarious.”
According to my definition, I have no problem calling Elivis a racist http://luxuriouschoices.blogspot.com/2008/04/racism-in-prince-william-area.html.
And we should not be segregating people based on income and education. I believe that’s how slums are created? Further racism and division? Hello?
“Detente makes more sense to me than nuking those with whom I disagree.” AMEN, Sister Howl!
Well, a nuke now and then…… 🙂
Not me, Bubba makes an excellent point:
I think the Washington Post is attempting to show that there is a middle ground rather than only 2 extremes. I think the people on this block represent moderation rather than extremes.
Elvis, take that nastiness on out of here. Unlike a Black Velvet, I will call you out on it as will others. Think what you want. I have no control over what you think but don’t say it here. This is a polite request.
The interview with Elena was an example of the Washington Post reaching out to the middle ground.
HSM gave the first organized shove and MWB pushed back. I believe the majority of the residents of this county were represented by neither and had no dog in that fight. The MSM loves a good dust-up and for a long time looked no further than the two combatants.
Moon-howler said on 22 Apr 2008 at 11:54 am:
I think the people on this block represent moderation rather than extremes.
You have got to be kidding. Take, for example, this comment on washingtonpost.com:
kgotthardt wrote:
And I suppose they just KNEW who was “legal” and who was not, right? They’d rather have empty houses than work on fixing their neighborhood? These people deserve what they get and what they have coming.
4/21/2008 9:23:19 PM
You call that little threat “moderate?” by one of your cronies here? Just what do those women “have coming?” I would love to here from Ms. Gotthardt on that little gem.
No one can have even the slightest difference of opinion with you, Moon-howler, without you trying to twist their words or outright b*tch-slap them. Keep howling to the moon, because you alienate everyone else, and no one but your own little cronies will ever take you seriously. Some housewives need to just stay in the kitchen.
To add to my comment on the decline of suburbia…
http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/04/22/suburbs-are-hurting-from-birth-rates-and-gas-prices/
Elvis said “They run like cockroaches when a cruizer shows up at 7-11, it’s hilarious.”
Sounds just like something the Germans in Nazi Germany said when the persecution of the Jews began…
why does everyone have to bring up nazi’s…oh my god! the mexicans being deported…oh the horror, lawbreakers being arrested. Shut the hell up you liberal moonbats…
LOL, elvis. Whenever you folks run out of ammunition you resort to name calling. Never fails. Favored insults of your ilk usually incorporate the word liberal. Y’all must think it’s the equivalent of the f-bomb!
Perhaps I should change my antbvbl username to liberal observer, a word you clearly can’t stand. I love the visualization of your face contorting whenever you see my name on antibvbl.
Liberal, liberal, liberal, liberal, liberal!!! How’s that working for you, Elvis?
Signed,
liberal observer
Back to solutions – yes, the women in the article made a difference in their neighborhood, but at a cost of using an expensive misguided resolution to run out a bunch of people, in my opinion. There has to be a better way, and I think it does involve educating people, both newcomers and the ones who have been there many years and are resistant to newcomers who make them feel threatened. I think the City of Manassas and the county are doing their part with their Neighborhood Services Departments and their Neighborhood Conferences, but there needs to be more citizens getting involved.
A great opportunity is the 33rd Annual Conference on Neighborhood Concerns, May 21-24 at the Hampton Roads Convention Center in Hampton, VA. It’s $200 for four days or $95 a day for day trippers.
They are offering tours of revitalized neighborhoods in the Hampton Roads area, and sessions with case studies such as Andy Street in Long Beach, CA, trainers from the Indianapolis Community Building Institute and speakers from the Minneapolis Neighborhood Revitalization Program. The sessions include “Problem Solving in Today’s Neighborhoods” and “When Sparks Fly – Establishing and Maintaining Inclusive Relationships in Multicultural Neighborhoods.”
You don’t have to reinvent the wheel – the solutions are right out there, it just takes people taking positive action — not “get out of my neighborhood, I’ve lived here and my parents lived here” but “let’s work this out.” If you can’t afford to go to the conference, just look at the agenda and follow the names of the speakers to their websites to get lots of information we can use here.
I’ll bet you representatives from the city and the county are going to this.
http://guest.cvent.com/EVENTS/Info/Summary.aspx?e=17ad499b-3f0e-49f2-96b8-9d8ee7df6578
Just some advice from a seasoned blog-veteran for all:
Don’t feed the trolls…
Here’s the conference session that intrigued me the most as a possible solution here in Prince William/Manassas/Manassas Park:
Community Weaving
Community Weaving is a bottom-up grassroots civic engagement model created to reweave the social fabric of community. Cheryl Honey founded the Family Support Network, lnternational and pioneered Community Weaving to weave the human and tangible resources of the grassroots with the skills and expertise of formal systems using a web-based technology developed on http://www.familynetwork.org. In this interactive session, Ms. Honey will share how Community Weaving generated over 175,000 volunteer hours valued at $2.6 million in direct services to families and community service projects on a budget less than $25,000. Community Weaving is being practiced in over 100 communities in the U.S. and Canada. The model was identified as an effective poverty reduction approach as neighbors pooled resources and self-organized to spearhead projects involving local agencies to address issues related to gang prevention/intervention, domestic violence, teen pregnancy and education. Community Weaving is featured in the Change Handbook (2nd Ed.) as a social change methodology. Community Weaving is being researched as a best practice as part of the Service to Science Academy. Come see how neighborhoods are transformed by ordinary people doing extraordinary things to improve their quality of life through Community Weaving. Speaker: Cheryl Honey – Bothell,WA
For more information, her website is http://communityweaving.org
You’re, I shouldn’t have fed the troll.
Cindy B, was that your LTE in the paper today? If so, thank you! It was wonderful. I saw the name and I believer we have kids who went to preschool together. Seems like so long ago!
Yes, and I have a 17 and 21 year old who went to Alpha-Bet parent co-op preschool!
Sadly, the day after I wrote the letter the Weems soccer field was mowed and the memorial to Mr. Orosco is gone now.
Cindy B, the conference appears to have an interesting agenda – several pertinent courses.
Cindy, your youngest was in the 3s and 4s classes with my daughter. I also remember your daughter. They were both VERY smart children, as I recall. 🙂
kgotthardt, what did you mean when you posted the following on washingtonpost.com:
kgotthardt wrote:
And I suppose they just KNEW who was “legal” and who was not, right? They’d rather have empty houses than work on fixing their neighborhood? These people deserve what they get and what they have coming.
4/21/2008 9:23:19 PM
Was that a threat directed at these women?
People are blaming the resolution, when the resolution is not to blame. it has to be the greedy Realtors and those who bought more house than they could reasonably afford. It comes down to consequences for your actions.
“What struck me about this article was that it sounds like a small group of citizens actively dealt with neighborhood issues. What I am wondering is this….was it the resolution or their dedicated committment to their neighborhood that fixed the most egregious problems?”
YES to dedication and NO to the Resolution.
“It sounds like there was an opportunity that was missed, and instead we have the serious repercussions of double the foreclosure rate of surrounding counties and businesses, once thriving, now struggling under the threat of bankruptcy.”
YES and I still do not think it was the Resolution that caused people to go into foreclosure OR create MORE foreclosed properties in PWC
take a peek at this article
http://money.cnn.com/2007/06/19/real_estate/500_top_foreclosure_zip_codes/
It is just the train that keeps on rollin’
Juturna said on 22 Apr 2008 at 10:33 am:
“ ‘The first paragraph where Chris said she was delighted to no longer see illegal immigrants of course leads one to conclude that what she really means is that she’s happy to no longer see latinos.’ I find this comment unfounded and unfair.”
Juturna, I meant that that was a poor choice of words to start an article trying to present the point of view of being concerned about quality of life in a neighborhood. PEOPLE violate codes, not illegal immigrants.
Emma,
I do not see it as a threat.
kgotthardt,
My friend is Chris Pannell and I know for a FACT that she deserves a lot of credit for the changes that happened in her neighborhood.
The neighborhood was REALLY bad with with drunks pissing everywhere, to overcrowding, etc. I will NOT speak for her but I know her INTENT was not that she would rather see people of a “race” gone but meaning the behavior. IF she were not so busy she could elaborate more. I just have to jump in and give my take. I KNOW her.
Someone said something along the lines of wait til they have a RAT problem. They already did last year and SHE was the one trying to address the issue.
Firedancer,
hah! hah! I must have been typing when you were. RIGHT about POOR choice of words and that is ALL it was 😉
MEdic,
AND GIVING CREDIT TO the Resolution and NOT where it due. (I give credit where credit is due) SHAMEFUL of the people doing so! ( I know not you 🙂 )
/\/\3|)iç 64 said on 22 Apr 2008 at 6:13 pm:
People are blaming the resolution, when the resolution is not to blame.
I am still wondering, though, what these dedicated neighborhood activists have done and are doing to reassure their immigrant neighbors that they are welcome in the community. Since, after all, it’s nothing personal, just a quality of life issue.
Here’s what I don’t get…
Where does the resolution address overcrowding?
Where does the resolution address littering?
Where does the resolution address day laborers?
Where does the resolution address businesses that employ undocumented labor?
It doesn’t. Yet, some want to credit the resolution with “solving” all these problems.
Maybe we would have been better served by a resolution that addressed quality of life issues rather than getting the county into enforcing federal civil law. I don’t see Stewart and Stirrup drafting resolutions to address those who don’t pay their Federal taxes, so why is this federal law so worthy of our action? What other local resolutions have been passed by the PWC BOCS to “cover” for deficiencies in enforcement of federal statute? I’m guessing not many.
The clean-up in Westgate is impressive, but I really wonder how much is because of the resolution and how much is the result a “perfect storm,” if you will. The resolution does, indeed, play a role in terms of making PWC less hospitable those who are not indigenous to Prince William. But we also have a tremendous downturn in the economy and, in particular, the construction industry. Add to this the dogged efforts of people like Chris Pannell and Allison Kipp to make their communities better.
What I wonder is how much of this could have been accomplished with grass-roots, neighborhood-level activism and interest without introducing the divisiveness of the resolution.
Firedancer,
I have to say Turn PW Blue just said it all. EVEN what I was trying to say.
I MOST defiantly get your concern of what to do to REASSURE their immigrate neighbors!
“What I wonder is how much of this could have been accomplished with grass-roots, neighborhood-level activism and interest without introducing the divisiveness of the resolution.”
This speaks volumes….here is the deal as I see it, SOME of most vocal and interactive people found it to be their ONLY way as a START on the BANDWAGON and honestly, I see that as the BACKBONE that kept it going . Some have dropped off at different times but keep plowing forward with mistakes RECOGNIZED! 🙂
kgotthardt, what did you mean when you posted the following on washingtonpost.com:
“kgotthardt wrote:
And I suppose they just KNEW who was “legal” and who was not, right? They’d rather have empty houses than work on fixing their neighborhood? These people deserve what they get and what they have coming.
4/21/2008 9:23:19 PM
Was that a threat directed at these women?”
Meaning, when their homes decrease in value, when they find themselves living around empty homes turned into crack houses, when someone start turning on THEM next….do you see what I mean? What comes around goes around, as I always say.
These ladies didn’t need a resolution to do ANY of this and be successful. We know this because they have the drive. Gloating over a neighborhood exodus is mean spirited and detracts from their accomplishments. If they wanted to be commended for their actions, they should have requested that GL be left out of the article. Otherwise, they are lumped right in there with him and his ilk.
(BTW, how on Earth would I threaten ANYONE? With WHAT???? My minivan? LOL)
kgotthardt,
YOU crack me up! I get you, that is why I told Emma I didn’t take it as a threat…Your spastic like me and sometimes it can come off ALL WRONG! LOL
Anyway, about the crack houses, etc., you are SO right and believe me, it has been discussed and a very REAL concern and back then and NOW has nothing to do with the Resolution!
There was great concern about the bunk housing and storm door propped open to signal a room for rent for a night, etc….
THE SAME CONCERNS REMAIN TODAY as they did back then.
We are back at the beginning!
I’ve been following this site with interest for a few weeks now and thought I’d put in my 2 cents, for what it’s worth. I got the impression that the ladies were objecting mostly to the overcrowding, the litter, etc. I really didn’t get the snense that they were doing this because of racism. It seemed like they started their efforts before the Resolution, if I read the article correctly.
Dearest Emma, how is Mr. Knightley? 🙂
Sorry, KG, but people don’t have the luxury of requesting that anyone be “left out of the article.” I know from our discussion on here that you are not that naive.
So, do you see the bias of the reporter here? These people were “lumped” with him for a reason.
For the record, Chris Pannell is no longer a member of HSM. Many of the tasks that resulted in the new and improved Westgate were begun long before there was a Help Save Manassas or the Black Velvets existed as a blog. She was instrumental in seeing that much of the clean up along her street and surrounding streets happened.
A PW County Resident,
EXCELLENT POINT! This is why I would never do an interview and have UN joined a group…A person is much better being accountable to oneself. It is hard enough in the world as it is……
MH:
So Chris left HSM?!? You sure? She’s still listed as the Membership Director in this month’s FrontLine (the newsletter of Help Save Manassas).
By the way, the front page of this month’s FrontLine (heck, even the name says enough) says more than I ever could. In celebrating the one year anniversary of HSM, what is the prominent picture (upper left-most)? Someone in handcuffs.
And if there was any question about the relationship between HSM/Greg Letiecq and John Tanton’s network of reactionary fringe groups, take a look at page 6 of the FrontLine (the “Marching Orders” column) with its links to “national organizations concerned with illegal immigration.” It reads as a vertible who’s who of Tanton’s network of extremism:
FAIR USA
Numbers USA
IRLI
Center for Immigration Studies-CIS.org (yup, another Tanton group)
The only non-Tanton group is Grassfire.org. So 4 out of 5 “national organizations concerned with illegal immigration” recommended by HSM are Tanton/FAIR-inspired/supported groups.
Turn PW Blue,
So Chris left HSM?!? You sure? She’s still listed as the Membership Director in this month’s FrontLine (the newsletter of Help Save Manassas).
YUP, SHE DID….AND…the WAPO article was WEEKS OLD
PRETTY PICTURE? sorry, couldn’t resist…how people want to ATTACK looks(photo pics, etc)
EVERYONE should be asking where is the TRUTH? Time and opportunity….
redawn/MH:
Why (and when) did Chris leave HSM? This is big! I often saw her as someone well-meaning who was duped into an association she would later regret. I understood her concerns and her frustration with what had happened with her community, but wondered how she could continue her association with GL…
Think about the statement her leaving HSM makes! She was not just a member. She’s been used (and I do mean used) as a poster child for HSM (most recently, an extensive interview in the April HSM newsletter) and served as an officer (membership director). I think GL often used her as the “kind” face of HSM (again, ignore the man behind the curtain…).
Turn PW Blue,
YUP! lol, but I CANNOT speak for her……YUP ( that is redneck for YEP)
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
NOTE TO SELF: wonder why I love to ask WHY?
(kgotthardt, baby girl….I hope YOU are paying attention and are LEARNING too! 🙂 )