Supervisors had a late night budget cutting session that netted approximately 6.7 million savings in the first year but many of the cuts were one year suspension of services that don’t yield much savings in the 5 year plan. In terms of ‘illegal immigration’ the additional police staffing of 6 officers and 1 support staff civilian that were requested were removed; however Chairman Stewart made it clear that it does not mean that officers will not be perfoming those duties. Interestingly, Chief Deane pointed out that if we were to be competitive with some surrounding jurisdictions we would be looking at hiring 100-200 officers instead of the 36 that he initially requested. Also, the cameras for the police cruisers have at least temporarily been removed. If staff determines the cameras are required to mitigate liabilities resulting from a lawsuit they can be reintroduced. Still on the table for possible reductions are 85 County employees layoffs which could account for another 5 million. The end result being a 5% increase for residential properties & a 28.6% increase on the average commercial tax bill.
113 Thoughts to “Budget Recap”
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undecided said on 23 Apr 2008 at 4:10 pm:
Undecided, I will explain what I do not understand:
I would never resort, to proving my point, by calling a specific sect of people all criminals.
I would never associate with someone who created a post that referred to people as dog food.
I would not censor opposing views on a blog and yet allow, openly racist views to go unchallenged.
I would never be seen associating in a friendly manner, on mulitiple occassions, with a person who had worked with a known hate group like FAIR and had themselves been labeled a “nativist”
There are plenty of reasonable discussions to partake in without resorting to racism when it comes to the questions of immigration. What simple question do you want answered?
This issue cannot be reduced to “illegal is illegal”. THAT is not an American value. Our country has been built on immigrants. In past large waves of immigrants, you didn’t “stand” in line, you showed up on a boat with minimal paperwork. I have looked into the history of our first immigratiaon laws, they were premised upon racist views, i.e. the KKK being responsible for the Johnson Act of 1924. We, as a nation, have struggled with demographic change since the time of Ben Franklin. All I have ever advocated is a thoughtful humane honest approach, taking into consideration our Declaration of Independence, the peom on the statue of Liberty, and how we incorporate those basic American values with a much needed labor force. I have asked questions, how does the implementation of NAFTA, or its lack of implementation, effect our southern border neighbors? However, there is a misconception that every immigrant who is latin is Mexican. That is untrue. Hazelton PA HAD a large population of Brazilians, yet they still passed an expansive anti immigration law.
What role is FAIR playing in this local, state, and national debate?
In addition to the over $7 billion that undocumented residents pump into Social Security, I would also like to add that undocumented pay billions in federal tax and millions in state tax as well. It goes without saying they pay sales tax, personal property tax, buy license plates (another tax) pay real estate tax through home ownership or rent. They will never be able to collect one dime of Social Security and the rebates that everyone else is going to get they will not be entitled to receive, even though they paid taxes. But they do not complain. That is the ticket they signed for a better life and a chance to gain citizenship.
Ditto, Elena.
Marie/Elena,
I second those opinions!
Oops!! My fingers were faster than my brain again. Do they complain? No they do not. They were happy to sign that ticket for a better life and a chance to gain citizenship.
Okay here it is, Corey Stewart’s message for PWC constituents:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGLZxi_U-wM
WOW….two EXCELLENT letters today to the MJM editor regarding SUPPORT for the Resolution! VIVA LA LEY! (Hey, Firedancer, that means “LONG LIVE THE LAW! in Spanish)
Undecided,
I don’t think you have characterized this blog accurately. No one here would suggest you support illegal aliens, whatever that means.
You seem to have given a great deal of thought to something you are still undecided on. What is it that you want to decide? Why does the issue of illegal immigration have to be an all or nothing proposition? Every time I hear someone say ‘which SIDE are you on,’ I wonder why a person has to choose a ‘side.’ Are mixed feeings not allowed.
I am not sure exactly what you are looking for here.
Elena, thanks for your response.
You said – “I would never resort, to proving my point, by calling a specific sect of people all criminals. I would never associate with someone who created a post that referred to people as dog food.”
– I just did a google archive search. The “dog food” post was made by a “Madam Mofo”. Was the IP traced to Greg? That would be near impossible to do without help from law enforcement. I don’t know HSM that well, however I have lurked his forum. I see a few crazies on his board (and a few here), but I have never seen Greg himself stray from the illegal issue. Additionally – when you say sect – do you mean ethnicity or religion or illegal aliens in particular? Do you think that Illegal Aliens are in fact not illegal?
You said – “This issue cannot be reduced to “illegal is illegal”. THAT is not an American value. Our country has been built on immigrants.”
So where do we draw the line at which illegal things are OK? I completely agree – and RESPECT – that our contry is built on immigrants from all over the world. However more and more people are wanting cizizenship at a rate we cannot keep up with, and we need to control the amount coming in. Doesn’t respecting our own law constitute an American value? If we don’t like the law, then we as Americans can work to fix it – and you have my respect for getting involved in that manner. With that said, I do not see it as an American value to openly support, sympathize, and harbor those who have disregard for our laws.
I have dozens of questions (see undecided on 23 Apr 2008 at 1:47 pm: in this forum).
Actually, illegal aliens never really bothered me. However the illegals were taking things too far. They got greedy. The lack of law enforcement created luxuries that American citizens to not have. Now that we have law enforcement, its a shock to the system.
That – is an American value. We could argue about all sorts of contriversial laws all day, but that is the system our country relies on for what we are allowed to do. My views see no specific immigrant group, only those individuals who break the law at citizen’s expense. Once an illegal enters the country, his/her options are limited to where they must commit more illegal activities to profit. It may start with joining a gang, stealing an identity, scamming a hospital (us citizens have to pay for such luxuries), getting a false license, not paying taxes. Yes, some Americans are guilty of these crimes as well, but they do not expect immunity, and they have no group of people saying that they should be allowed to brake those laws.
Marie – heard that arguement many times. How can anyone determine that illegals paid 7 billion in SS if they arent documented in the 1st place? Most of them get paid under the table. Those immigrants dont pay a cent of income tax. Truth is – NO ONE has a clue as to how many are here, and how many/few pay taxes. Even the best experts can only take a stab in the dark on those estimates, and they will admit to that. Many who do pay taxes are doing so under someone elses SS number. The IRS then assumes the citizens who had their identity stolen by the Illegal made more money then they actually do, resulting in the LEGAL citizen paying the tax.
Undecided, you struck a chord with me when you noted that one side is called “Mexicans Without Borders.” Why is it that they can identify themselves by their ethnicity, erect a wall spewing all kinds of hatred against white citizens, and yet they and their supporters scream “racism” when anyone suggests any kind of control against illegal immigration.
I think if the PWC resolution went away tomorrow, it wouldn’t be enough–my sense is that no one on that side of the Wall feels there should be any restriction WHATSOEVER–the undocumented persons are here, we should just live with it and shut up, otherwise we are all racists. The resolution clearly targets criminals, not folks who are just minding their business and obeying the laws. That is why I actually do think that the PWC police should be provided with cameras, in order to protect them from charges of racial bias.
The resolution goes away, and then you’ll hear screaming about reopening day-labor centers, allowing businesses to employ all of the undocumented workers they need–on and on until undocumented persons have all of the rights and privileges of citizenship without any of the burdens.
Undecided,
Marie said- heard that arguement many times. How can anyone determine that illegals paid 7 billion in SS if they arent documented in the 1st place? Most of them get paid under the table. Those immigrants dont pay a cent of income tax. Truth is – NO ONE has a clue as to how many are here, and how many/few pay taxes. Even the best experts can only take a stab in the dark on those estimates, and they will admit to that. Many who do pay taxes are doing so under someone elses SS number. The IRS then assumes the citizens who had their identity stolen by the Illegal made more money then they actually do, resulting in the LEGAL citizen paying the tax.
Undecided,
First you have a couple of things wrong here. The SS administration SAYS that they collect those billions of dollars from people whose names don’t match SS numbers. That is their number and THEY attribute it to illegal aliens. And contrary to popular belief, most illegal immigrants DO NOT get paid under the table. Do you think CMC and Lansdowne were paying cash? Are you crazy?!!! Of course they were not…they paid their employees with a check with taxes taken out of it just like all employers pay their people. Yes, there are day laborers, but they comprise a very small fraction of the total illegal work force. They pay BILLIONS in income tax and many do not file a return since they don’t have a SS number to match their name. Therefore, they do not get the refund you and I do. They certainly do not need to PAY more if they filed a return. And SS identifies it when a number is being used by 2 people and the name only matches one of them…no one is paying taxes on the money an illegal earns with their number.
Moon-howler
Totally fair statement about all or nothing. As of right now I am not a fan of any side. I have given this a HUGE amount of thought as it does affect me and my family (4 kids, homeschooled because public schools have lowered learning curves to accomidate illegal aliens). However, there is a human right issue as well. It is very difficult to get to the root of the issue as hatred is spewed everywhere and everyone wants to bring race into it for thier own benefit.
Undecided,
You might want to go check out that dog food google again. I have no ownership of that disgusting post either on this blog or any other. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are simply mistaken.
1. I think Stewart is a liar and a hypocrite. If he were not, he’d do the right thing. I can’t trust one single thing he says. I wouldn’t trust Stirrup to carry my grocery bags. The other supervisors, I don’t feel this way about. They have time to redeem themselves by opposing Stewart’s and Stirrup’s motvivations which at best are selfish and destructive to the county.
2. James, I’m all set with you. If you don’t believe in democracy, then there’s nothing more to discuss. This is the United States, and while I don’t believe every country in the world needs to replicate the U.S. that’s what we have here and I believe in it. End of story.
3. I never thought Donna was crazy. I have no idea what her relationship to GL is and at this point, I don’t want to. I’d rather see her for her and not her association with someone I consider hateful and dangerous.
4. Undecided, you are asking some pretty broad questions, many of which have already been discussed on this blog. You might want to do some general Internet searches to catch yourself up. As far as the ESL and school academic levels, though, my first question would be, did you discuss your concern with the school admin. and if that didn’t work, did you go to the school board? Those would be the appropriate steps before taking your kids out of a school.
“some Americans are guilty of these crimes as well, but they do not expect immunity, and they have no group of people saying that they should be allowed to brake those laws.” Actually, Undecided, we have many, many criminals who believe this and who have people defending them in this manner. And many of these criminals are white collar and politicians who believe they should be above the law because they are wealthy or have political connections.
Madam Mofo: Perhaps someone used your screen name.
see the link:
http://www.antibvbl.net/index.php/2008/04/02/hilda-barg-slams-corey-stewart-for-attacking-chief-deane/
Madam Mofo said on 2 Apr 2008 at 5:41 pm:
I see that we have had an invasion of parasites and vermin from somewhere. Is this the time I start looking around for some dog food?
“I am open to trying to find out why there is so much sympathy for those who disregard our laws?” Because the laws and the process are screwed up. Because people who have violated these laws have commited a CIVIL offense that can be worked out, not a criminal one.
– There is a reason that we have limited the amount of immigrants to this country, and contrary to popular belief (in this forum), it is not a republican conspiracy to rid the country of “brownies”. We have illegals coming in as such a rate that the infrastructure simply cannot handle it. I will also be as bold to say that it should be a slow process from a cultural side. People on both sides should be allowed the proper time to adapt to cultural change. What is happening in our county is proof of this — look at how our county has become divided.
– Greg’s group is called “Help save Manassas”. His title does not call out Latinos. The opposing side is called “Mexicans Without Borders”. They acknowledge themselves as representing Mexicans, and they are just as much subject to criticism as any other group. It is not fair that when anything is said objectively about them, it is considered racist. To me this comes off as stereotyping all white people as racists — quite ironic in that view is racist as well. With that said, it should be acknowledged that there are a small group of racists in this county who want Latino’s out, and they are using the “illegal” issue as an opportunity to spread hate. This does not excuse “Mexicans Without Borders” to take advantage of America’s current racial sensitivity as a tool to block anyone from objecting to their agenda.
– How can people say that illegals are paying their fair share of taxes — especially SS taxes? Aren’t most of them getting paid cash under the table? It doesn’t take an expert to realize that sales tax on a Big Gulp isn’t to cover emergency room and education costs. Paying rent helps in the form of property taxes, but it still falls way short. If they are paying income taxes, does it not mean that they have likely paid for false identification (probably without realizing that they have paid someone unscrupulous for someone else’s identity)?
– How is it not a black and white issue that they are illegal? Some use the comparison of when whites first came here, that they were illegal too, but fought to overcome, and that is what the Latinos are doing as well.
When Europeans came to America, the Indians were here first. By some standards, yes, the whites were considered “illegal”. There was much fighting, and the Europeans prevailed. When we took part of the southwest from Mexico, there was a war, and the United States won. If illegals take on this stance – that tells me that they are willing to go to war over this again. I certainly hope that this is not true. However, every time I hear this argument used, this is what they are saying to me.
– When a legal tax-paying American has a major medical issue, the health costs can cause them to go into bankruptcy. The illegal alien will usually take the easier path of switching identities when the bill comes, as the underground networks of illegal identification are easily accessible. When we had the aggressive driving laws, they were also immune from having to pay the exuberant fines. The examples of illegals immune from regular American costs are endless. This has nothing to do with the color of their skin, but everything to do with benefits that they have that legal Americans do not.
As for the cops pulling people over, what is the great mystery in how they determine whether or not to question legal status? Is it when they fail to provide a driver’s license? or if the license is clearly a fake? Has anyone been asked for their identity when simply walking down the street? At a soccer game? At 7/11? Is there any proof that more Latinos have been pulled over in general? When you sneak into the country, again you are aware you have done so illegally, and there should be some fear that you might get caught. Anything else is a mockery of our laws.
When a pro-illegal advocate uses the word “undocumented”, it comes off like they are trying to reprogram the public into thinking that they aren’t doing anything wrong. This comes across as deceiving the public. “It’s simply a matter of paperwork which makes them undocumented” they say. This is not the case. We have decided as a country for very specific and well-thought out reasons to limit the amount of people coming into this country. People coming here are indeed illegal just as much as someone without the paperwork saying they have a college degree does not have a college degree. I’m not racist against someone without a college degree, but that shouldn’t give them the right to be able to demand a job which requires it.
I ask this group to show me why I should support illegal aliens.
Thanks
-Undecided
From Kenneth – We dont have to call it a Republican conspiracy since Pres Bush tried unsucessfullly to resolve the matter last year and the Right Wingers blocked…..the problem from my perspective is the way the BOCS tried to do something about the matter…..by going to FAIR – a radical anti-immigration group and we became suckers for FAIR…The BOCS should have gone to the County staff and determine what they could do…instead of making the Resolution up while they went along…..angering everyone…..look at the idiotic services they block …..when they started they were going to block kids from schools (illegal) and they would stop illegals from getting social secuity–they werent….and again, the BOCS could have found this all out before sticking their public collective asses out in public. The BOCS s/h counted the number and types of issues that people were complaining about and they would have found that the BOCS could have done a lot with this data….neighborhood over crowding, disorderly conduct, lack of car insurance…but no,stewwart went the CNN route…….alll so he could get re-elected.
It isnt HSM vs. Mexicans w/o Borders…many of us know how split the Latinos are …..radicals….Greg was campaign mgr for Corey…and used FAIR to get what he wanted…look at the press con that he and stewart and stirrup held……all making idiotic suggestions…..stepping into the police dept and screwing up what they do—Latinos stopped telling police where the criminals are and now the police arrest all these people and firat had to find them committing some other ccrimes…0 = 0.
TAxes – therre are studies out that prove both sides..BUT Greg isnt charged with nforcing what he thinks are violations of tax codes. Our hospitals are privaate corporations ……..the g ovt has not say in what they do…….we do have a county sponsored health clinic to save those who are sick, dying, w/o insurance ….. but the tax thing…look at all the studies…….but dammit dont swallow the crap that HSM gives out when they dont have proof of what they are saying….illegals DONT get social security….if they did…….hSM isnt the enforcer. You call people pro-illegal….some are pro…..following the law…not making laws up to get re-elected at our expense!!!
I know you are being sincere in what you say….but we s/follow the lead of the appropriate levels of govt and not those of bigoted right wing anti immigrant groups…..hope this helps
kgotthardt
There is no group out there trying to “Free the Identity Thieves” (except one, ahem).
“Undecided, you are asking some pretty broad questions, many of which have already been discussed on this blog. You might want to do some general Internet searches to catch yourself up. ”
I have obsessivly been watching this board (and bvbl) for some time now. I asked the questions I did because I have never heard straight answers. I hear shouts of hate and broad accusations.
So Undecided, DID you contact the school Admin. about the ESL problems?
Kenneth Reynolds
Thanks for the response. Let me read this one carefully.
TWINAD
You as well. Have to deal with rush hour now.
Thank you everyone for spirited and positive debate.
So, Undecided, DID you contact the school Admin. about the ESL problems?
kgotthardt – OK must go home now – but Yes. We had much discussion before deciding to pull my oldest son from school. We were heavily involved in many talks with everyone from teachers, princepal, school admin during both of his years at Sudley Manor. They were probably glad to see us go!
What did they say about it?
(When you get time…I see you have to go.)
Undecided,
It was sarcasm and distain for a different posting. There was no picture posted. It was comment on another issue.
Obviously you know exactly what you are looking for. You might want to read on down for about 10 posts. There is a full explanation.
Madam Mofo – I see your apology and sorry you got dragged into this one.
I am trying to find the specific post that Elena was referring to.
kgotthardt – We spoke about our own son’s development in the school, and what the school was in the position to provide. The school’s hands were pretty much tied up. Being it is a personal issue with my son, I would prefer to keep any other details private. I certainly do not specifically blame the school. We took matters into our own hands and have decided to home school.
undecided,
Greg deleted the post, only after I brought the disgusting post to the light of day. I, of course, have a hard copy. You can view the post from the 9500 liberty youtube video. I have kids to take care of, bath time, etc so I can’t address your very valid questions right now. Will be sure to return later 🙂
Elena – Fair enough – I have the same duties with my kids. Thanks for the heads up tho.
undecided said: “With that said, I do not see it as an American value to openly support, sympathize, and harbor those who have disregard for our laws.” Don’t forget it is also not an American value to *reward* them for breaking immigration laws. Remember, even with the dems in control of congress, amnesty was DEFEATED last year – the voices of the people were heard loud & clear.
In all this discussion about what was cut and what wasn’t cut from the funding for the resolution, I’ve seen little mention of what this means for the schools. From what I understand, for every penny below the $1.00 rate, the schools will need to find another $6 million to cut from their budget. With a potential rate of $0.97, that’s $18 million more from the school budget.
I am “amused” by all these people who keep saying the $6 million “saved” by the reduction in the number of ESOL students can be used to pay for the resolution. That $6 million (if it even existed-it doesn’t-there’s some savings but it’s no where near $6 million) doesn’t even cover what the schools have had to cut from their budget to get to the level provided by the $1.00 rate. I am scared to think about what will need to be cut if another $18 million needs to be found some place.
These are the true costs of the resolution. These cuts mean more delays in building needed schools (because contrary to the hype, the school system is still *growing* and schools are still crowded). I know the county has been working on getting a Governor’s School established in Prince William County (with a program like Thomas Jefferson HS in Fairfax and housed on the GMU Prince William Campus). It’s a joint effort with Manassas and Manassas Park. Think that will happen with this budget?
Yes, 18 million from the school budget. What I’d love to know and I will just have to get on the phone again, but for each 1% drop in the residential real estate property assessments, what does that translate to, in dollars? PWC has had close to a 15% drop in the residential real estate values which has to severely impact the budget.
kgotthardt said “If you don’t believe in democracy, then there’s nothing more to discuss. This is the United States, and while I don’t believe every country in the world needs to replicate the U.S. that’s what we have here and I believe in it.”
I don’t know whether your comment is simply a function of a woefully inadequate (probably government) education, or willful ignorance. I likewise don’t know whether to laugh or to cry that someone could be so incredibly WRONG about our very form of government and still presume to comment about public affairs.
As for whether you’re “all set with [me],” that’s fine. I’ll cast my lot with Madison, Jay, Hamilton, and Washington, and you can cast yours with … well, whomever is equally ignorant about our form of government. But please don’t speak to me about “rights” you have lost to “democracy,” for the ultimate power in a “democracy” is the will of the majority. And if your touchstone is the will of the majority, then “rights” are nothing more than quaint relics.
kgotthardt thinks the illegals deserve a pass because since white people commit crimes and get away with it (sometimes) them the illegals should too. What a crock! James young has it right, make up your damn mind! it’s just a big conspiracy against the poor mexicans!! in a few months you’ll find some other cause to support when the hoopla dies down on immigration
I dont hear anyone here complaining about mexicans without borders and how racist they are..
I didnt hear anyone really answer undecided’s questions. kgotthardt in her infinite wisdom said “go look it up yourself” unless there’s a fight involved she doesnt bite. Again, a sure sign of a radical looking for a cause to spit at whatever it is.
what’s the real problem here? cannot it really be whittled down to illegal vs. non-illegal? I think it can, the law should be black and white on this matter. if you have a wobbly standard what good is it? is there EVER going to be a standard/law that EVERYONE agrees with? Nope. Dont think it’s Constitutional? Talk to the supreme court.
is the government doing everything it can to help the issue out? Nope.
is there anything we can do about it? Yep..it’s called voting.
what about that “immigrant” resolution? (by the way it’s call rule of law, I’ve never heard it called an “immigrant resolution” except by kgotthardt. PWC citizens voted for it and we got it..nuff said there.
comments?
Luckyduck,
I heard those promises also when the BOCS tried to snow us into buying into the ‘Resolution.’ I also notice that when it came to paying for the said promises, the Honorable Mr. Stewart started the slash and trash program with the budget.
Thank you for explaining the REAL impact of the non-replacement of officers. So much of what we get told from the powers that be is truly mumbo jumbo and it makes no sense to me.
You are right, this is no way to run a county.
I think everyone on this blog needs to remind our supervisors what they promised Chief Deane. He was told that he would have the tools he needed and the personnel to get the job done. I would say he was lied to.
Jo Blow & James Young – agreed and well said.
Emma – agreed. That hate-based sign has got to me the most bizarre strategy I have ever seen. It reads like a drunken ramble, and it is amazing they have ANY credibility at all for not distancing themselves from it.
Kenneth – I agree and applaud with how you are going about making your decision not to support the resolution. I have been in the process of researching the resolution’s effects on our county so far. I have basically come to the conclusion that everyone who posts “facts” about the good and bad has an agenda. Im taking a “wait and see” approach, and leaning towards support towards the resolution – for now. I do understand that some hard-core right wingers in FAIR had a lot to do with getting this thing started. However the other side has the heavy-duty left wingers trying to stop it by throwing mud. Seems to me like these outside interests have a lot of profit by getting everyone worked up.
I just don’t see our legal Latinos packing up and leaving town due to their being offended by the resolution. This is their area just as much as it is ours. They may not be giving the cops crime tips as you pointed out, but letting them hold that over our heads and using it as a bargaining chip is bad strategy as well.
elvis – agreed. I believe that the resolution is the will of the people. I don’t think it is perfectt, but at least we are doing something about it. Both sides have evil political gains, but we are the ones who have to live here.
Usually when you go into forums like this I expected to hear a smoking gun that is driving everyone’s opinion. All I am seeing is hate for the other side, and overly-general responses like “Thats Unamerican”! People for the resolution have given specific reasons and letigimate issues.
Admin
Currently 1 penny equals $5.3million in revenue. (Market adjustments notwithstanding. The schools receive 56.75% and the county retains 43.25%
Undecided,
Here are my answers to some of your questions:
Having been in the public school system, it is NOT ESOL students that have created the system we are in right now, I believe it is the SOL testing dynamic. Teachers and schools must pass the SOL standards or they lose funding, end of story.
The only criminal activity the OTHER reports on is either Hispanic or “illegal’s”, thus giving the impression that our community is overrun with vicious Latino and/or illegal’s committing crime. He doesn’t have to say it’s Latinos, he only talks about border control and Mexico. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to make the connection. There is NEVER a positive headline about a Latino. I could go on, but I’m tired. He calls all “illegal’s” criminals so when he puts up a post suggesting “Illegal alien criminals” make good dog food, we should all be outraged. He claims he censors racist comments. Oh please, we have a saved thread where he accidentally posted comments he has censored. Not ONE, not ONE, was racist, but they were ALL against Greg and his ideology. He can pretend that he is just too busy to “babysit”, but the reality is, he has more than enough time to censor comments that are contrary his belief system. Monticup, a regular poster and Park’d commonly write outrageous comments. In fact, Monitcup called children parasites and Greg did not nothing. Not only did he not censor, he didn’t even comment on the vile post.
Twinad addressed the tax issue, and many would agree with that assessment. I am wondering how you know what people do and do not pay regarding their medical costs. On this one, I might agree, but even if your premise is true, there are still plenty of studies that suggest illegal immigrants still give more than they take in school and health care costs. Check out the council on foreign relations and do a search for immigration cost to benefit ratio.
“Infrastructure overload”. Once again, there is plenty of research to show that there is still a benefit from this labor force. I have advocated, being that specific localities bear a larger burden; the Feds should allocate additional monies to help offset the burden.
I am not pro-illegal. I am pro-fix the broken immigration system, I am pro-figure out what is wrong with NAFTA that it is having a negative effect on Mexico’s economy, I am pro- remember the famous poem on the statue of liberty, I am pro- create safer borders, I am pro-create task forces to deal with community issues that this resolution did not address, I am pro-immigration, I am pro-learn your history regarding the genesis of immigration restrictions in this country, start with the KKK and people will learn alot.
Also, the reason why people say “undocumented” is because these are actual immigration terms. There are different labels for different levels of status in this country. If you are here , never having held a legal visa and have never been given deportation papers, you are “undocumented” in the eyes of immigration law.
Now I see your post to “elvis”. Now undecided, you have made your position clear. You have received plenty of factual responses and yet now you choose to suggest the answers you have received are too general. Why would there be a “smoking gun”? Immigration is a complicated issues, and as I have repeatedly said, one that has been contentious since Ben Franklin.
What do you mean by “both sides have evil political gain”? What am I gaining? What are any of us gaining here, except trying to find thoughtful solutions and not some dummied down mantra “illegal is illegal”. I have seen no proof from the Greg’s side, at least proof that isn’t propaganda. I don’t know who you are, but you came here with your mind decided not “undecided”.
There have been many rants from THE OTHER about “you have been warned”, “you will pay the price”, “you will be judged”, you will this you will that……….
Those tactics are not maintstream society. These tactic are not about outcome at all. These are about fear, force and control. Now I am not a profiler but there is a certain consistancy with that approach and specific organizations.
He said, she said matters not when these are the underlyng issues.
“elvis – agreed. I believe that the resolution is the will of the people. I don’t think it is perfectt, but at least we are doing something about it. Both sides have evil political gains, but we are the ones who have to live here.
Usually when you go into forums like this I expected to hear a smoking gun that is driving everyone’s opinion. All I am seeing is hate for the other side, and overly-general responses like “Thats Unamerican”! People for the resolution have given specific reasons and letigimate issues.”
1. It was the will of SOME people, the majority to do not represent PWC citizens including people who don’t even live in this county. (See the FOIA’s.)
2. Not sure where you are seeing hate from the other side, but I don’t see it here. I hear anger, frustration, sadness, and confusion. Just like you are frustrated with crowded neighborhoods, some people are frustrated as hell with the lack of due process and justice in this country (I’m one of them).
3. It IS Unamerican to deny us democracy and a voice. The BOCS has denied us both these things.
Undecided, people who do this for free and are not in office have little to gain except hopefully a better, more peaceful community and justice for all. I’m seeing patriots here, not political sycophants (as we see in bigoted and/or partisan groups including our BOCS).
Here you go, Elivs, the IMMIGRATION RESOLUTION, kindly provided to you by Admin.
http://www.antibvbl.net/index.php/2008/04/17/immigration-resolution-review/
elena:
I wasn’t sticking up from Greg in my initial post to you as much as questioning that which you claim not to understand.
There are dozens of studies on both sides. My main issue is with schools. I AM undecided, but leaning. I guess I haven’t found a group to side with yet. I have many mixed views.
kgotthardt:
When reading my original comment I can see how you took it the way you did. I pasted one thought in between another. My apologies. when I said that both sides have evil political gain, I was talking about 2 national extremest organizations (one on each side) getting involved for noteriety at our expense. – not anyone in this group!
So what steps exactly did you take with the school, Undecided? I’m curious because I know this is a major complaint among some groups.
(Oh and NP about the extremists. I just didn’t know who you were referring to, Undecided.)
kgotthardt – We spoke with our teacher regularily to get additional school-work for our son. We spoke with both the princapal and the school admin, and in a nutshell they said their hands were tied. I dont blame the school. Elena answered one on my questions in detail and I am going to research it.
I’ve got some spare time so am going to take a stab at Undecided’s posts. I will be a succinct and serious as possible.
1. reasons we have limited immigration to this country are largely political and relate very little to what our infrastructure can absorb. Since the 90’s immigration law shifted to focus on family and employment based, rather than national quotas. Important to note that the rate of immigrants to the native born population is actually much lower today than in the early 1900’s. There have been overtly racist laws in the past that were later revoked for purely geopolitical and strategic reasons. Don’t idealize our current immigration law as a sound basis for argument, it is full of folly and is always a work in progress that demands public scrutiny.
2.Help Save Mexicans is in my mind the very worst representation for immigrants in PW County imaginable. I was rather adament that they stay out of Loudoun. They have contributed significantly to the level of vitrioul in the community.
3.Yes, most undocumented immigrants do pay their fair share of taxes. A relatively small amount of illegal immigrants work under the table. Take ICEs raid of Lansdowne resort. 59 workers apprehended, all illegal, all on payroll, all paid taxes.
4. A couple of ways it may not be black and white. They may be eligible for adjustment of status and not know it until they get legal representation. Example, a situation of domestic violence when the abuser is a resident and the abused is illegal. A victim of human trafficking. Another example, a terrible earthqauke hits El Salvador. It wreaks havok. The governement opens up TPS (temporary protected status) to all Salvadoreans who are currently here illegaly. They are given work permits for extandable periods of time. Last example, a refugee has entered the country illegally but is able to apply for refugee status.
4. I won’t even touch the part about illegals taking some sort of stance comperable to an armed conquest. It is beyond ridiculous.
5. I rather think that the kind of medical crisis that would cause bankruptcy for an American is a bad example in the valid point that you are making. Reason being, that would generally be a long term chronic disease and accumulated medical expenses. In that instance it would be much more devestating to an illegal immigrant who does not have access to that kind of healthcare to begin with. If you are referring to a hospital emergency room bill than I would agree. It is obviously easier for an illegal immigrant to “walk”.
I think it is helpful also to look at the overall quality of life of an illegal immigrant as opposed to an American when examening percieved “benifits”, which I think is a poor choice or words. Ask yourself this, if there were no illegal immigarnst in the US, woudl this issue be resolved for American citizens? Well, no, not really. You have hit on a US healthcare crisis for which illegal immigrants are not to blame.
6. Propable cause is a very serious matter and there should be clear definitions and quidelines. This does not only relates to the Resolution. Think of probable cause for search. If there are no clear quidelines, or the established protocol isn’t followed, a person with a ton of weed in their trunk can get off the hook.
7. Who in the world is a “pro-illegal immigrant adocate’? Who would advocate for keeping an illegal immigrant illegal? You need to adjust the paradigm or you will be chasing your own tail. We all need to adjust the paradigm and be more forward thinking, solution oriented, right? Lets not get into the endless cycle of debate over whether or not illegal immigranst are a net harm or a net benifit. We don’t want 15 million illegal immigrants.
8. As an individual we should be a good sumeritans and kind neighbors. We should support comprehensive immigration reform at the federal level that works to intelligently secure our borders, provide vastly greater pathways for legal entry into the US as our economy demands and is able to support, provides for an opportunity for illegal immigrants to adjust their status, unless they have commited crimes (other than violation of civil statuates)in which case they should be deported. The plan would also involve ways of improving the infrastructure and economies of the countries of origin to reduce to impetus for immigration. We should support local solutions to local problems. Zoning enforcement, nonprofit solutions to community integration, etc.