164 Thoughts to “Holy Smoke!”

  1. Firedancer
    April 29, 2008 at 9:37 pm

    Turn PW Blue, I and I’m sure others agree with what you said. Why? Because we are reasonable and empathetic. It’s just that we are so SICK of how the Lou Dobbs of the world have hijacked the discourse, and that politicians campaign on a platform of bashing the poor, without an apparent iota of an ethical dilemma.

    I hope you have posted the same editorial on bvbl.

    I understand being concerned with the quality of life in your neighborhood, but I just can’t understand the obsessive hatred toward latinos other than as similar hatred toward any other group that the majority perceived as a threat. No, I don’t believe it’s all about “illegal”.

    Anon, I’m Jewish, too, and that is precisely why I speak up. I absolutely see the parallels to Nazi Germany, because the seed in the Germans that made it possible for them to do that deed is the same seed that caused Americans to form the KKK and to cause the bvbl nutjobs to do their thing. We of all people should recognize it and speak out against it.

    Since I’m always chiming in at the tail end of discussions, I don’t know who will see this……but anyway, I’ll read it over before I press “submit”….

  2. Michael
    April 29, 2008 at 9:54 pm

    I’ve seen this argument philosophy too many times to believe it any more.

    Take something really bad in history, even if you don’t know the difinition of what it was, but you know everyone hates the label with veracity, and then identify a concept you don’t like, don’t understand and can’t put an accurate definition on, AND assign that “nazi”, racist, bigot, hate group label on it so everyone will think your so smart and nailed the true evil of it!

    How about first understand the defintions and concepts of what you are trying to defend first and then understand the definitions and concepts are what you are trying to change people’s minds about.

    Here is the core issue everyone (all of you who are against it)

    1. Put “illegal alien” people in jail because they are by definition “illegal”, they have broken a law, a law that was passed by lawmakers, a law that needs enforcing, apply that law to everyone equally and send anyone breaking that law back home. THIS CONCEPT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE, as much as you would wish it does so you can spew hate words.

    2. Once “illegal” people are removed from your economy, that economy will improve, your funds they used up will now be available for capital improvements and communit growth. THIS CONCEPT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE, as much as you would wish it does, so you can spew hate words.

    3. Once “illegal” people are removed from your streets, they cannot be a part of gangs, of criminal elements, and cannot kill innocent people. Your community will be far safer with “illegal” people gone, than if they remian in the country “illegally” and commit these heinous crimes, that are preventable simply by enforcing the law and sending them home. THIS CONCEPT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE, as much as you would wish it does, so you can spew hate words.

    4. Once “illegal” people are removed from your community, you can work on the more pressing problem of getting diverse legal cultures to blend “politically”. to merge language, and to merge trust and friendship as a blended culture that is blind to race, religion, gender or ethnic group. THIS CONCEPT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE, SEPERATISM, SEGREGATION, MULTI-CULTURALISM, MULTI-LANGUAGE PROMOTION, and ETHNIC GROUP fracturing of the nation into a community of conflict and hate, as much as you would wish it does so you can spread social enginnering words of hate, when people try to blend cultures and promote everyone to get along as AMERICANS, not WHITE AMERICANS, BLACK AMERICANS, BROWN AMERICANS, RED AMERICANS and YELLOW AMERICANS who spew hate at each other and claim special priivilige and laws just for their group so they can take care of only their own, and claim they are superior to all others as they spew words of hate against creating unity, common language understanding, common culture and common political ideologies between previously conflicted factions. Yeah as much as you would wish they don’t, some people are actually trying to promote cultural respect and politcal unity under a concept knows as individual civil liberty. Oooo, NAZIs and racists they spew!!

  3. Michael
    April 29, 2008 at 10:00 pm

    Fire-dancer, ilegal bashing is not poor bashing. It is “illegal” bashing.

    You actually solve the problems of the legal poor, when you make more money available for them. When you remove “illegals” and send them home, you free up more money and resources for the “legal” poor. Why o’ why can none of you get this?

  4. Firedancer
    April 29, 2008 at 11:04 pm

    Michael,
    Obviously people approach this issue based on their personal experiences and perceptions.

    Because I live and work within the immigrant community, I know and understand the human beings who are the target of so much vitriol. I understand why people have come, I know how they live here, and I know how hard they work. I do not see crossing the border to be landscapers and maids in the same category as criminals. I do not get all hysterical about OH MY GOD, ILLEGAL ALIENS.

    I do believe that the hysteria is rooted in racism or at minimum an unwillingness to accept that our population is changing.

    You don’t know how the economy will react once all the “illegals” are removed, and anyway, that is not going to happen. PWC will perhaps be a case study on a small scale. But community growth is a funny thing. How do you build community? Not by demonizing a group of your fellow humans, even if they were undocumented.

    About your third point, yes, criminal elements, gangbangers, killers, need to be removed. But I don’t equate undocumented immigrants who are here to work in the same category.

    I also don’t see anything wrong with being proud of your ethnic background and maintaining your native language and culture. EVERYONE wants to learn English, and as we have said many times, the children of immigrants assimilate naturally.

    Obviously, Michael, we have had different life experiences that lead us to have different points of view. I think you are just as wrong as you think I am.

  5. Kenneth Reynolds
    April 30, 2008 at 12:00 am

    anon said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:31 am:
    You folks are crazy. I happen to be Jewish too, and just because I’m for the resolution you call me a Nazi. In your book everyone for the resolution is a Nazi. Yes, there are skinheads in the USA but I haven’t encountered any in PWC.
    My wife came here legally and waited in line like everyone else, and it was a long frustrating process for the both of us. Why should other people get a free pass when we waited patiently in line and did it legally?

    Kenneth said – No, most of the people who are for the resolution dont have the slightest idea of what it is all about….Just listen to the people tonight…..they think the resolution will solve all of their problems….when, factually, if the BOCS was doing its assigned job – local govt…..these problems would have been addressed….instead we are trying to enforce federal laws……….the people who understand the political dynamics of the resolution…….they are the scary ones…except for Gospel Greg, i doubt the BOCS really understand the resolution……

  6. Elena
    April 30, 2008 at 12:34 am

    Turn PW,
    You make excellent points and I think you are correct on many fronts. We are trying to elevate the discussion here. I know we can all get heated, I am guilty of that too. What is happening is not like the holocaust, and I believe I have posted my thoughts on the issue. However similarities of how hate can thrive if there is a specific target is a valid analogy should not be ignored. But no, no one is going to be carted off to a concentration camp. There are people that have legitimate concerns regarding illegal immigration and we should not dismiss their concerns. Is it fair that proximity would allow one group easier access to become a citizen, while someone over seas does not have the same recourse. But, these are very complicated IMMIGRATION questions, and if we only focus on illegal/hispanics, we will never come up with a solution. From my perspective, we have had many new posters that may not have anything of substance to offer but hate. I am wondering how we can address that dynamic within this forum. I have found myself agreeing on some points with Medic, we do not want to alienate those who we want to reach out to.

  7. Elena
    April 30, 2008 at 1:16 am

    anon,
    where were you told to “go back to your scumhole” ? Please let me know what thread.

  8. Censored bybvbl
    April 30, 2008 at 7:18 am

    Anon, you need to start making a distinction between the specific “you” and the general “you”. You addressed your post to me and then proceeded to fill it with things I’ve never said. Apology?

  9. Firedancer
    April 30, 2008 at 7:22 am

    Elena, I think we steadfastly have to respond as you did. We all get emotional sometimes, but it shouldn’t be the rule. When posters come over here just to spread hate and instigate responses, we just need to recognize that. You and Admin are putting so much effort into keeping this going that it would be a shame to become exactly like the OTHER in tone. Thanks for all you are doing.

    I saw your quote in the Examiner. Thanks again for putting yourself out there. It’s not easy.

  10. Turn PW Blue
    April 30, 2008 at 11:14 am

    Michael:

    You might be surprised by just how many of us agree with some of what you wrote as the core issues. The problem and the disconnect comes in how those issues are being addressed. It’s not necessarily a difference in opinion over the problem but rather the solution.

    1. Put “illegal alien” people in jail because they are by definition “illegal”, they have broken a law, a law that was passed by lawmakers, a law that needs enforcing, apply that law to everyone equally and send anyone breaking that law back home. THIS CONCEPT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE, as much as you would wish it does so you can spew hate words.

    Actually, being in the US illegally is a civil, not criminal offense, so you won’t be put in jail. You are correct that this concept has nothing to do with race, but the problem is the motivation for many to start calling for the immediate enforcement of existing immigration law has been based on racism and bigotry. When you hear someone say “we need to send ’em all back to Mexico” that’s not based on legal status. When you see that the motivation for removing illegals is because “their” culture and language threatens our American culture and language, that is not a motivation based on legal status. Yes, there are those who are thinking purely in terms of what is legal versus not legal, but they are not the ones who are the “face” of the issue.

    2. Once “illegal” people are removed from your economy, that economy will improve, your funds they used up will now be available for capital improvements and communit growth. THIS CONCEPT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE, as much as you would wish it does, so you can spew hate words.

    Not necessarily true. When an area is at full employment (as we are in PWC and NoVa), suddenly removing a large part of the available labor force will have an adverse negative effect on the economy. The assumption that removing illegal aliens from out midst will suddenly make everything better is not entirely accurate.

    3. Once “illegal” people are removed from your streets, they cannot be a part of gangs, of criminal elements, and cannot kill innocent people. Your community will be far safer with “illegal” people gone, than if they remian in the country “illegally” and commit these heinous crimes, that are preventable simply by enforcing the law and sending them home. THIS CONCEPT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE, as much as you would wish it does, so you can spew hate words.

    Are you saying that every person who is a member of a gang is an illegal alien? Even if all of the illegal aliens leave tomorrow (or are thrown out), we will still have gangs. We will still have crime. We will still have innocent people killed. Many members of MS-13 are here legally. The Crips and the Bloods were around long before we recognized illegal immigration as a problem. Some of the most dangerous organized crime rings are homegrown and actually ANTI-IMMIGRANT. There are studies that show that illegal immigrants are actually less likely to commit a violent crime. Other studies show that the crime rate in the illegal alien community is the same as the crime rate in the legal resident community. We tend to think of illegal aliens as the “criminal element” because they make good headlines (“Illegal Alien Drunk Driver Kills Teenager in Traffic Accident”).

    The problem with your points, Michael, is that where you see that everyone who opposes you is trying to make this racial, you refuse to admit that race plays any role at all. That’s just not the case. While it is not entirely race motivated, it is impossible to say that race has nothing to do with this. Neither position is correct. It’s not all about race, but it also isn’t completely devoid of race.

  11. jenna jameson
    April 30, 2008 at 7:01 pm

    AgreeAboutNazis said on 29 Apr 2008 at 1:08 pm:

    …. but probably not a long penis – we all know Jews have short penises!

    Hey Agree,
    I would strongly DISAGREE! Don’t you know that Ron Jermemy, a VERY famous porn star, is known for the girth and length of his manhood? Guess what, he’s JEWISH 🙂

  12. Michael
    April 30, 2008 at 7:09 pm

    PW, firedancer and Elana,

    All very good points, I agree with some, I disagree with some.
    I am deeply opposed to making any of this a racial issue, when I see people slip into targeting specific ethic, racial, gender or religious groups, I call them on it. I call you on it too when I see it, and you yourselves do not see it. That happens most often when you “approve of and side with” a specific ethnic group, that you want to give special priviliges outside of the existing laws to. That is equally racial in its focus and defense. Obviously you cannot take that element out of all discussions when the primary groups of people who are “illegal” also have a numerical ethnic group visibility in the community, but I have looked at the “rule of law resolution” that you oppose and find it has no racial, ethnic group, gender or religious group bias in it. It simply enforces a law that is also not based on racial, ethnic group, gender, or religious group bias.

    The fact that all of you still want to help people break it and justify it as a special case, just because you sympathize with the “illegal” alien population (because you work with them, or have family members who are) does not give you a right to exhibit racial and ethnic group, and religious group prejudice and discrimmination, and advocate politically for them to have special privilage protecting their “minority” ethnic group from the law, while not protecting others (inn majority groups) who are equally to be protected by that law. You acts and beliefs counter to this basic concept, is also discrimmination and racial group prejudice. You just can’t admit to it or see yourself doing it, because the victims in this case are the “majority” and you have likely spent your whole life defending and advocating for “minority” benefits and privileges not given to everyone the same and under the same legal interpretation of the law. This is when I call you on it. I can see it just as clearly in you, as I can see it on BVBL, and Believe me, some people over there, don’t like it when I do it to them either. I know for a fact the law is NEUTRAL, and members of both groups are anything but seeing the law and the racial, ethnic, gender, religious group viewpoint from a legal neutral position.

    The law and the law enforcement process is not about race, it is neutral and has to be to be legal. Anything else either group does that does not follow the law is not neutral, but follows racial, gender, religious, ethnic group discrimmination or privilige. Both perspectives are wrong and need to be changed. You simply need to follow the law, and then argue if you should or should not change it to assist one specific Ethnc group (or several) to stay in the country. I doubt you will win that arguement, because the “illegal” immigration numbers are way too high, as much as you wish for everyone to sympathize with them, the nation cannot do so and still maintain stability and prosperity of the kind we have enjoyed for the past 50 years.

    I deeply oppose these new concepts of “diversity” and “inclusion”, for two reasons. They are illegal, according to the US constitution and Supreme Court, because they use racial and numbers balancing concepts, and because they disadvantage “majority” groups. My second equally passionate reason to want these concepts eliminated is that “diversity” and cultural political advocacy and “separatism” are also the fundamental cause of war and conflict in countless examples of racial, religious, and ethnic warfare in the rest of the world. I do not want to see those concepts come from these countries already in ethnic conflict transfer these morals and social values to our country, but they will as long as you continue to support “illegal” immigration, and “diversity” instead of controlled growth, and cultural unity and blending, under the guidelines of “individual rights” and not “cultural group” rights. That is clearly a path of social ruin and political decay for this country and none of you understand this. You have not been along side it as I have and seen it first hand in the conflicted nations of the world. You are starting to see its effects in Denmark and Great Britain, although Germany temporarily stopped it by deporting all “illegal aliens”, but other countries cannot seem to get the political will to do this yet. This must happen or we will end up like the countries of Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Afganistan, Bosnia/Serbia, Korea, China, South Africa, etc, etc, etc and people who think like you do (social engineers) will be the mechansim that will ultimately allow it to happen.

    This is why I fight you on this issue and why I fight certain members of BVBL on this issue to enforce the law (equally) and focus ONLY on that.

  13. Elena
    April 30, 2008 at 7:21 pm

    Firedancer,
    thanks for the kind words!

    Turn PW,
    Have you ever considered running for Supervisor? (hint hint)

  14. TWINAD
    April 30, 2008 at 7:50 pm

    Turn PW: Well said! And I second Elena’s nomination.

    Michael:

    Have you not ever heard of a law that has later been amended because it turns out it was not the right thing to do? I’m thinking: Blacks only allowed at the rear of the bus, separate restrooms and drinking fountains for the “colored”. Oral sex a crime…as in who on earth would know what people are/were doing in their home?! And there are many, many other examples. In all of history there have been laws that have become outdated and no longer are socially acceptable. We are facing one of those laws that is broken. Do we need to just swing open our borders wide and just let anyone in? No, but if people have been here and gainfully employed for many years and have never been in any trouble, I fail to see why they should be persecuted. The government has known for a long time that this was a problem and did nothing. Because illegal immigrants built the suburbs of Northern Virginia and have fueled the local economy for a decade. Times change; laws change with them.

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