The modification of the “Probable Cause” portion of the Immigration Resolution is good for Prince William County. A unanimous vote last night by the Board of Supervisors means that law enforcement here is no longer fundamentally unfair.
PWC Police Officers will no longer be required to check documentation status for minor traffic stops. Therefore equal protection under the law has been restored to citizens and legal residents who fit “probable cause” indicators such as language proficiency.
Police Officers are no longer in needless danger of being accused of racial profiling. Like most other counties in the United States, we will again check legal status only after arrest. Furthermore, legal status will be questioned for ANYONE who is arrested, thus dispelling the appearance of prejudice.
It is a great relief not to have to worry about a nightmare scenario where one of Prince William County’s Finest finds him or herself dragged into court, forced to explain that, “It wasn’t because of her skin color that I arrested a legal citizen who forgot her drivers’ license, it was the way she pronounced the letter ‘L.'”
High praise for Frank Principi and Martin Nohe for working together to outmaneuver Corey Stewart and John Stirrup. High praise for John Jenkins for bringing to bear on this contentious debate his years of experience working out the details of budgets and negotiations in the best interest of the county. High praise for Maureen Caddigan and Mike May. I’m sure it took long hours of soul-searching and ultimately, personal courage for these moderate Republicans to go against their conservative colleagues, Stewart and Stirrup. This progress would not have been possible without moderate Republicans and Democrats working across party lines for the common good. Thank goodness Wally Covington came around to join the moderates and abandon extreme partisan ideology. I will sleep tonight knowing that Corey Stewart and John Stirrup’s last stand has ended.
Thank you to everyone who spoke out on this issue, whether for or against the Resolution, whether for or against the change that was made tonight. I actually had some friendly conversations with people who supported the Resolution. Overall, the mood was much more civil, even neighborly, than the spectacle in October. I saw glimmers of the community that we once were before we became so divided. I get the feeling that many people, including some HSM members, would like to stop fighting and move on.
Some questions remain.
1) Will this change be enough to help Prince William County avert economic consequences of the Immigration Resolution that have already begun to set in?
2) Will immigrant communities, both documented and undocumented, and the net economic benefit they bring with them return to our county?
3) Will the reputation of Prince William County be restored, allowing us to successfully compete with other counties in the DC Metro area for new businesses and new investment?
Only time will tell. But this is an encouraging and significant step.
Ruby,
My ears are open. I can do that just not join 🙂
WhyHereWhyNow said:
I agree that we should not interrupt their spinning cycle. In part because it’s so entertaining. It’s saving me $50 a month in cable bills to just watch the non-stop theater of the absurd. Question: are the thank-you-so-much-Greg/you’re-so-right-so-great comments coming from real people? If that is the case, HSM/BVBL really is a cult. Or is Greg spending all his time generating these aggrandizing/amplifying comments himself.
One thing about Greg that does impress me. He is a masterful cyber insurgent who is finding innovative/sick ways of using the Internet and technology to disseminate his extremist propaganda and advance his war on illegals, liberals and democracy.
Park’d – glad to see you here. I have a better understanding of where you are coming from and what your frustrations are. I would recommend starting with neighborhood services actions – You should not have to live admist the things you describe. Is there anyone in Manassas Park that does this kind of thing? If not, I would suggest going to Mr. Neighborhood, John Jenkins and asking him what to do. Regardless of his/your political issues, he knows how to handle a neighborhood and related issues. Maybe Manassas Park needs to contract services in this area from the county? MP has contracted services from the county in many areas and this should be no different.
Anyway, glad to see you. Used to read your posts on the other side and it prompted me (as did those from Lafayette) to go look for myself. Won’t argue that you have very valid concerns.
I would see about that contracting deal….
Ruby and Red Dawn,
I’m inclined to agree with you about not joining groups. Watching Greg’s “battle cry” in Richmond reminded me of the movie, The Wave. I watched it in high school. Based on a true story, it’s about a high school teacher who sets out to teach his students a lesson about how Hitler rose to power and drive home the message that we are all vulnerable to brainwashing and susceptible to fascism. To teach this lesson, he systematically sets out to create a cult around his own charismatic personality. Many students at his high school begin to follow him obediently and behave thuggishly towards anyone that challenges the power of their leader. At the end of the movie, at a school pep rally, he unveils Hitler addressing his followers on a big screen saying this is who you’re really following. It’s very powerful. The movie made quite an impression on me in school.
NGL, don’t worry about Gospel Greg. He’s harmless now. What is he going to say in his sales pitch? “Hey, hire me and I’ll bring you a year of hateful political bickering, ruin your local economy, and leave you with basically the same approach to law enforcement you had before???” Would you buy that?
AnonForNow, I totally remember watching “The Wave” in high schoool! It made an impression on me as well. At the end, when the poster of Hitler got unveiled, I remember thinking, “Wow, great point, but it could never happen here.”
If I’d only known….
The thing that stood out for me at yesterday’s BOCS meeting was that the majority of HSM members or those who spoke on behalf of the resolution appear to be elderly. (Ha ha. I’m not lumping you in there, Ruby, and some people would say I fit the elderly category myself.) I think they’re a vulnerable part of the population and more outreach is necessary to help them feel more comfortable in their neighborhoods. I applaud the work being done in West Gate and am curious how the long-time, older residents have responded.
“To answer my own question in an earlier post, the BOCS did vote to shut down the juvenile group homes and the Manassas Senior Day Care center:” I can’t believe they are shutting these down! To me, that is just immoral. I am so tired of the weak, the fragmented, the disenfranchised, and the poor being pummeled.
Elena, I hear your exhaustion. It IS exhausting taking on these powers because that is what they are—social powers that have been allowed to go on and on with small groups trying to knock down the walls with sticks and hammers. Take a rest. You need it and deserve it.
I know it’s a bit like crying over spilled milk, but look how Arlington County calmly and reasonably handles the same problem — without a resolution.
If only.
http://buckinghamheraldtrib.blogspot.com/2008/04/county-holds-inmates-for-customs.html
WhyHereWhyNow,
I am not ready to render anyone harmless. There is nothing more dangerous than a trapped wild animal. Survival 101.
I hope no one is lulling themselves into a false sense of security.
We need to start working with Arlington and Fairfax to combine peaceful efforts and make sure GL doesn’t spread his poison.
Anyone know if ICE handles our detainees the same way they do in Arlington? Pay close attention to what the county HAS to do 30 mins and/or 72 hours after ICE has been notified. If so, this whole resolution is a sham:
excerpted from:
http://buckinghamheraldtrib.blogspot.com/2008/04/county-holds-inmates-for-customs.html
I don’t even know why I’m bothering to point this out, because the damage to our budget and our reputation has been done. Maybe it’s the satisfaction that comes from knowing that this didn’t have to be. All of this could have done without Greg L, HSM and FAIR if the BOCS had just had a meeting with Chief Deane, the Sheriff and ICE and worked within the laws and regulations that are already on the books. Instead, our BOCS failed in its oversight and, as a result, a grassroots extremist organization has taken root in our County. They are seemingly accountable to no one. Neither is the BOCS, I’m afraid, as each member was sworn to new four-year terms just four months ago.
Only in America. Both sides saying they got what they wanted. I guess that begs the question, at least in my mind, why no one sat down in a group and talked to the supervisors.
It is a good day when everyone walks away happy.
Dolph…either happy or oblivious….
I am amazed at the lack of political courage by any of the supervisors – regardless of what side you are on. We are not clear on what the resolution does or does not do now, we were not clear on what was cut and what was not and both sides are happy after a backroom deal. Somebody lost. I always thought local government was the one chance an average citizen(S) had to make a direct impact, where they were listened to face to face. I am not sure anymore…
Casual,
I agree with your assessment. I don’t think the PWC board has any idea what ICE does with their detainees. I think they think ICE takes them in and they are on their way out of the country within days or at the most, weeks. Granted, I am not an expert, but I acted as a translator for two of the guys, detained in the CMC ICE raid, last week. The case worker said it will be months, but more likely years, before their cases are decided. All but two of the immigrants detained in that raid are out now. If this is how they handle the people they detain in their own raids, then I honestly do not know what they could be doing with the people sent to them via the County jails. I can only assume that they are all out now, too, except for criminals who have actually committed some type of crime like rape or murder. This is why I was so adamantly against the probable cause…it was a huge waste of money…ICE won’t detain someone on a traffic charge…it seems like they only have time to get real criminals and terrorists off the streets.
Real, reasonable immigration reform needs to be at the top of the agenda for the new administration. The system is broken. I view the current immigration laws as out of date as the law that required blacks to move to the back of the bus. That law was overturned, as many laws throughout history have been overturned. When it is not working, and is not the right thing to do, we amend our laws. It’s beyond time right now.
Brian Pace,
I missed your post at 10:12 this morning. Welcome to the blog!
Very funny post from bvbl.net concerning Greg’s info chart.
Dolph & Lucky Duck,
I have been reading all kind of sources and it sounds more like a riddle. It is what it is but it depends on what is, is.
EMAIL from Corey
As reported in today’s edition of the Washington Times, the Prince William Board of County Supervisors voted unanimously last night to strengthen and expand its crackdown on illegal immigration. See the story here: http://www.washingtontimes.com/article/20080430/METRO/823602705/1004. Prior to this change, our police officers could check the immigration status of only those people for whom the officer had probable cause to believe were illegal immigrants. Now, police MUST check the immigration status of ALL people who are arrested (including those arrested for less serious crimes and released on summons). Also, the Board retained the officers’ discretion to check immigration status of those detained for any purpose, even minor infractions. As a result of these actions, our police will be checking the immigration status of more people committing crimes in the County. I know that there was some confusion by other news sources concerning the effects of the Board’s action last evening, and I have been contacting those sources today asking them to correct their stories.
Also, I want to thank those of you who sent emails or attended the Board meeting yesterday. There is no question that your input helped save our illegal immigration policy from being repealed.
— Corey
Corey A. Stewart
Chairman
Prince William Board of County Supervisors
1 County Complex Court
Prince William, VA 22192
(703) 792-4640 – Telephone/(703) 792-4637 – Fax
[email protected]
http://www.co.prince-william.va.us
April 30, 2008 Washington Times
By Arlo Wagner – The Prince William Board of County Supervisors last night approved an addition to its 2-month-old crackdown on illegal immigrants, considered one of the most aggressive in country.
With the board’s decision, county police can verify the immigration status of anyone they arrest, even for minor infractions such as speeding or jaywalking. Before, they needed probable cause to think the person was in the country illegally.
Supervisor Frank J. Principi, Woodbridge Democrat, said earlier this month that he wanted to repeal the legislation that allowed the crackdown, in part because the board voted to strip $3.1 million earmarked for cameras in police cruisers from the roughly $6.5 million budgeted to enforce the new policies next year. He said the cut would result in a lack of civil rights protections.
The vote followed more than six hours of testimony from about 100 people, who were split on the issue.
“If [people] enter our country illegally, they should be deported, whether they are a criminal or not,” said Walter Menz of Woodbridge.
Said Jeanne Mitche of Dumfries: “I have been deeply saddened by what I have seen happen to Prince William County.”
Board Chairman Corey A. Stewart led the effort to crack down on illegal immigrants.
“This will increase the number of people who will have their immigration status checked,” the Republican said after the vote.
The board approved the resolution in October, denying county-funded public services to illegal immigrants and authorizing police to check the immigration status of a detainee when they have probable cause to think the person violated immigration laws.
A motion by Mr. Principi that would allow police to check the immigration status of a suspect only after the person is put in jail was defeated on a 7-1 vote earlier in the evening.
The enforcement began March 3 after officers were trained by federal Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents.
As of April 1, police said they had had contact with 89 illegal immigrants and that 46 received a ticket but were not arrested or detained.
As local governments across the country face tight budgets as the result of the slowing economy, the cost of the police training, housing those arrested and the price of the cameras likely will continue to be an issue.
Red Dawn, I just got the same spin from Corey Stewart. Funny how he bypassed the WaPo article…
Censored bybvbl,
It gets dizzying trying to catch up with what everyone is reporting today.
hey check this out but also listen to the tv in the background too….I found it funny
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV6vjO0_5V4
Hi Twin AD, you’re probably correct in assuming that all or most of those detained by the County for immigration violations and minor crimes (traffic etc.) and turned over to ICE are out and about again. Yes, it could take years. I think what the County feels it gains though is that these individuals now have a court date or a series of court dates that will ultimately lead to their deportation or their staying with some type of visa. If they were never originally detained, then there would be no process regardless of how long it takes. In addition, some of those detained have monitoring devices with them and all are not permitted to work again. According to some, this is a partial victory, to others, a waste. Pick your side.
Those that have committed offenses for which conviction meand jail time, the County will hold until their sentences are over and then turn them over to ICE. These individuals are fast tracked with a detainer and deported quite quickly.
LuckyD,
Agreed! Yes, I know people who commit serious crimes are fast tracked, but the others will be in limbo for quite some time. ICE is now having them fill out work authorizations. I don’t know how it will turn out, but I bet they get a temporary work permit, then when their court date comes up next year or the year after, they either get to stay or are told to leave. It will be interesting. It almost seems like ICE is putting people on “ice” until the law changes!
Red dawn, you’re the search queen!! Always an appropriate video!
Censored bybvbl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17-hu1E1bYg
hah hah 😉 just kidding
kgotthardt said on 30 Apr 2008 at 12:27 pm:
“We need to start working with Arlington and Fairfax to combine peaceful efforts and make sure GL doesn’t spread his poison.”
Spread his poison? Very little chance of that happening in a fiercely liberal and tolerant community like Arlington. Here is the link to the resolution they passed.
http://www.arlingtonva.us/Departments/Communications/PressReleases/57754.aspx
Firedancer,
I’d like to think so!
Well, I think the reason a lot of this happened here was complacency of the residents. PWC is primarilly a bedroom community by the time most people make it home they have little time for local activism.
Firedancer, you are inferring that people here are not tolerant. I don’t think that is true of the majority. I think the type of community as I mentioned is a larger factor.
Please.
Bring It On: Actually “fail” is correct. I see you’re new to the internet. Fail can be used as a noun. It’s a substance that can be delivered by the failroad, or aboard the fail boat. Do a Google image search on those terms.
Anyway, it’s a pretty funny post. Greg is so far up Stewart’s ass, that you know every time Stewart yawns you can see Greg’s bald, prissy head poking out the back of his throat.
Howie Feltersnatch ,
Now there is a name I haven’t seen in awhile…( other blog) lol
Welcome 🙂
You know what makes me mad about this whole thing. It’s not the people coming here for work. If I needed to feed my family I would hope I had the courage to come to the U.S. even if I had to do it illegally. What ticks me off is how can our government allow people from other countries to come here illegally and effect the quality of life for U.S. citizens. How can the federal, state or a local government allow this to happen. How can they be so inhumane to let their own citizens be in over crowded schools, live next to a house over crowded with people who could have diseases the we eradicated in this country years ago, and when we do need to go to the emergency room we have to wait in line behind people who shouldn’t be here. To me our own government is being inhumane towards its own citizens. I know the people coming here are happy to have a roof over their head and hot food and things we take for granted but you know what, when I subsidize these people through higher taxes, higher medical cost, higher insurance cost, I start to think what about me what about my family. The higher property taxes I pay to send their children to school, is it helping me? Is it going to fund my retirement? Is the higher premium on my insurance going for my fuel to run my car? One day am I going to have to explain to my child why a whole house full of men lives next to us? and answer the question, are they bad people? They aren’t bad people they come from a bad set of circumstances, thats why they are here, and again I don’t blame them but I do blame the government at all levels. And lets remember the resolution the county is involved in is part of a government program designed for local communities to utilize and that is what Prince William is doing (if the county had taken advantage of this back in 1996 when the program was first available we wouldn’t be having this discussion today). The federal government let the problem get to big and Prince
William is trying to do something about it. Following laws are a good thing even if sometimes those laws don’t seem fair. I pay my taxes its not fair to me but I pay and pay and pay, and if I don’t they arrest me, it seems to me if I have to obey the laws of this land someone who shouldn’t even be here can be expected to do the same. That is basically what this resolution is about.
So what you are all saying is that if any of you here think that “illegal” immigrants won’t be checked now for their immigration status, because some officers won’t exercise “their professional discretion” you won’t mind if people who are buried in our communities who want to take the US down, are not discovered until they actually succeed at their plans and you can all feel safer and sleep better at night now right?
http://www.dni.gov/press_releases/Declassified_NIE_Key_Judgments.pdf
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/64/22755
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajkAP_M4ZAM
http://www.cis.org/articles/2002/terrorpr.html
Personally I want those officers to exercise the “discretion” they have been given and have retained for even minor traffic stops. This will help us locate and deport everyone who will do the US harm, intentional or not.
sahdman said on 30 Apr 2008 at 9:58 pm:
Welcome Sahdman,
I think it is a mistake to blame illegal aliens or undocumented workers for all that’s wrong in your community. We have overcrowded schools in western pw and it is because of bad land use decisions, not illegal immigrants. It is impractical and unrealistic to believe that if we can only get rid of the “illegals”, our problems would be solved.
Michael,
I would hate to think we overlooked a terrorist because our police officers or federal officers were tied up with a minor traffic infraction.
I think everyone will admit that we have only a certain amount of law enforcement officers. I think we have to prioritize the severity of the harm being done. The second question we need to ask ourselves is how much of a police state do we want to live.
It is real easy to paint yourself in a corner on these types of things.
Juturna, I wasn’t inferring that, at least certainly not of the wonderful people who take the time to post here. That’s a form of activism! Hey, everyone’s tired at the end of the day. I truly admire those who have the energy to be involved in any kind of volunteer work. Well, most kinds of volunteers.
But you raise a good question from a sociological standpoint…how did Mr. GL gain so much influence?
Firedancer
“But you raise a good question from a sociological standpoint…how did Mr. GL gain so much influence?”
This video explains your answers. Find an interest ” ………….” and make it EASY, a click of the button.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uGm7nYmT-I&eurl=http://www.antibvbl.net/
I KNOW, I was going to bed….NOTE to self: WTF? WHY are you so tired?
RD, I saw that one…the how-to manual, right? Can’t bear to watch again, especially before going to bed.
Firedancer,
Off to bed. Just make sure you don’t crawl in bed with the big bad wolf wearing grandma’s clothing. That is scary…LOL
oh what big eyes you have….
It’s refreshing to see that most on this site are admitting the problems that illegal immigration has caused, and have made suggestions how to make changes through community action. However, we have been complaining of the same negative effects all along, and this site chose to make excuses or rationalize or refer to hate. We have not changed in our views, and have always stated to bad conditions that were causing our frustrations. If you folks had listened to us in the past instead of having a preconceived idea that we were all just racist haters, then we could have been working together all along. The problems could have been solved without the Resolution if there was a legal way of enforcing rules to prevent overcrowding, ensure property maintenance and such, but no legal solution was available. Manassas tried to prevent overcrowding, and look what happened they got sued by some liberal group. So please tell me how we could have dealt with issues such as the billboard and not have everyone marching to the courts. The billboard, by anyones standards of community respect, would never have been allowed yet there it stands today. You’ve suggested at the BOCS that we could have handled these problems in other ways, but the reality was are hands were legally tied. It’s hard enough to come to the realization that we can’t enforce rules to keep our communities organized as with a HOA, but when you find that many of the violators are in your country and community illegally, then that really takes the cake. therefor if you can’t enforce the rules, then the next best thing was to force them out by attacking the illegal presence issue. If you folks had banded together and somehow were able to stop the community violation as you suggest instead of fighting BVBL, then that might have prevented the passing of the Resolution. My guess is that no amount of talking to the illegals would have corrected what was occurring, because as you say, it was a cultural thing. Once again, most of you were defending how they were living with compassionate rationalization instead of addressing our true concerns. Unfortunately, as you are finding, it’s now too late for those discussions!
SA,
You analysis is way off. Our discussion points have remained the same throughout this blog. Ever since you one of your last posts, suggesting that its bascially typical of hispanics to live in filth, I really don’t think I have much to say to you anymore.
Elena,
I am not blaming illegal aliens for the entire problem of high taxes or over crowded schools, I said I blame the government. Federal, state, and local. As far as the schools. When a community is built it is going to have growing pains. At some point (maybe when your children are out of school) those pains will stop. Take Fairfax city a few years back they had 4 elementary schools now that the city population is older they have only 2. I assume if the population revitalizes itself then it will open the 2 schools they closed back up and higher the teachers needed. For all we know as Eastern PW got older and the new younger population in the west came in the money that used to go to the schools in the east could have been diverted to the west until the illegals came with all their children. That may sound far fetched but it could be what is happening.
SA,
Take the article in the Post a few weeks back about the 2 ladies in the Sudley area, someone’s urinating in public and you’re going to tell me there’s no recourse? You pick-up the damn phone and you call the cops. Then 20 guys in a house, surely there’s a violation there as well, no?
As far as Hispanics not living up to the standards of ‘Americans’ that’s a pile of DUNG.
“You pick-up the damn phone and you call the cops. Then 20 guys in a house, surely there’s a violation there as well, no?”
You can make all the calls you want. We’ve called the cops before on neighbors who park in front of their driveways or firehydrants on the street. We’ve called our HOA on overcrowding, lack of home maintenance (Grass a foot high, more weeds than grass, trash on the lawn, animal feces littering their front lawn because they’re too damn lazy to walk the dogs they have) and parking on the lawn…
You can call, and call, and call and when you get brushed off or nothing gets done – FYI THERE IS NO RECOURSE for bad behavior/actions.
SA:
“It’s hard enough to come to the realization that we can’t enforce rules to keep our communities organized as with a HOA,”
Don’t be fooled. A HOA doesn’t do crap. We’ve had plenty of problems with violations in our neighborhood and the only thing they can do is raise fees. But when you don’t pay your mortgage because you bought a bad loan, raising fees is irrelevant.
SA, are you saying that the individuals who post here should have been solving these neighborhood problems prior to the resolution’s passage? Some people weren’t aware of them. Did the neighbors in the blighted areas do their share to solve the problems? I know that some have worked to solve the problems but others have just complained to governmental agencies instead of trying to work within the community or just joined HSM. If everyone tried to get to know his/her neighbors, it would be easier to address the issues that mattered. Communities need to get organized. All residents should feel welcome to participate. Government can’t solve all these problems . There aren’t enough inspectors. The taxes would have to be raised to support more staff. Some legal issues would still remain that might hinder what residents would like to see done. Ultimately, the strength or weakness of a community rests on the residents’ shoulders and how much they are willing to get involved personally. The problems will never be solved merely by the police or code inspectors.
Not Me, Bubba, it’s been my experience that HOAs are often underfunded to pursue the necessary legal steps to solve problems. Too many of them look no further than snow removal, common grounds upkeep, perhaps a party, and a few letters sent to the scofflaws.
Our HOA is FAR from underfunded – we being just one development under their corporate umbrella. As for snow removal…they don’t do it. Common grounds maintenance? You have to CALL to get it done. As for a party – not once has there been one. And letters? Yeah, that is about the only thing they do – and raise fees.
Anyone who is looking at a HOA as a godsend to remedy residential problems may as well put their head in the oven. YOu’d get the same results either way – super heated hot air. And when you have a HOA that does nothing, a police force that will not ticket cars for dangerous parking violations (but will not hesitate ticketing if you lack the MP decal on your auto) – talking to your neighbors is all warm and fuzzy…but if they don’t care – AND THEY DON’T, you’re up crap creek without a paddle.
Not Me, Bubba, the corporate umbrella… Yup, that can be a big problem.