The Washington Post has a front page story about a legal immigrant who was picked up by Immigration Customs Enforcement officials for a decade old conviction of buying stolen jewelry. She now sits in a detention facility thousands of miles from her family and is not receiving medical treatment for a cancer that she fears has returned. This seems to be yet another example of an immigration system gone awry, begging for some sanitiy.
50 Thoughts to “Immigration System Gone Awry”
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This is part of a series the Post is doing, yesterday’s article http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/specials/immigration/cwc_d1p1.html highlighted the death of 33 people, in detention, for various reasons due to immigration status. One young man, 21, was a U.S. citizen, but accepted $50 dollars to drive someone to a border town. Another individual was simply a passenger(I believe) in a car with someone who was undocumented. What I am wondering is if you are a u.s. citizen, why are you being put into an immigration detention facility? Why are people dying in immigration custody?
“Nurses who work on the front lines see the problems up close. “Dogs get better care in the dog pound,” said Catherine Rouse, a contract nurse at an Arizona detention center who quit after two months last year because she saw what she regarded as “scary medicine” in the prison: patients taken off medications they needed and nurses doing tasks they were not qualified to do. “You don’t treat people like that. There has to be some kind of moral fiber,” Rouse said.”
“I need medicine for pain. All my bones hurt. Thank you,” wrote Mexico native Roberto Ledesma Guerrero, 72, three weeks before he died inside the Otay Mesa compound.
Delays persist throughout the system. In January, the detention center in Pearsall, Tex., an hour from San Antonio, had a backlog of 2,097 appointments.
Luis Dubegel-Paez, a 60-year-old Cuban, had filled out many sick call requests before he died on March 14. Detained at the Rolling Plains Detention Facility in the West Texas town of Haskell, he wrote on New Year’s Day: “need to see doctor for Heart medication; and having chest pains for the past three days. Can’t stand pain.”
Ten days later he went to the clinic and became upset when he wasn’t seen. He slugged the window, yelled, pointed at his wristwatch. He was escorted back to his cell.
Another of his sick call requests said: “Need to see a doctor. I have a lot of symptoms of sickness … as soon as possible!” The next was more urgent: “I have a emergency to see the doctor about my heart problems … for the last couple days and I been getting dizzy a lot.”
The next day, Dubegel-Paez collapsed and died. His medical records do not show that he ever saw a doctor for his chest pains. ”
So for all those people suggesting we have MORE ICE raids, for all those people wanting to “send them back with love”, YOU had better figure out how to ensure that the conditions are humane, that we don’t sentence people to death for simply wanting to be here to work! This country is not prepared, and I have said this again and again, to do mass deportations.
Very interresting story, but your synopsis is a bit misleading. She wasn’t solely incarcerated for her old conviction of stolen jewelry. She was incarcerated after being stopped for driving a friend’s car with expired tags and posessing Meth and Marijuana.
Furthermore she WOULD be receiving the appropriate medical care if our medical system wasn’t so effed-up and measures were NOT being undertaken to “cut costs” at every juncture – especially for those with SERIOUS medical problems like hers.
I’ll agree with you that legal residents should not be treated in such a manner – all people are entotled to safe, legal medical care. It is a human right. And in her case the law may be being applied a bit unfairly. However, I fail to see why legal residents should be free from deportation – especially if they are repeat offenders… What perplexes me is why she stayed a legal resident for so long, instead of becoming a citizen. 20+ years here with legal status and no citizenship?
Nothing is set in stone unless you are a citizen…
Not Me Bubba,
Do you really mean you believe that “legal” residents deserve better treatment? If you are not a United States citizen, are you less deserving of being treated humanely? Can you clarify please.
Did the Haitian Baptisit minister deserve to die because he he was afraid of retribution in home country and so he overstayed his visa? Yes, he was denied his blood pressure medication and DIED while begging for help in a courtroom. They accused him of “faking” it.
Not Me Bubba,
Quoting “Legal residents should not be treated in such a manner….” Exactly what do you mean? Do you think citizens and legal residents are the only ones who deserve humane treatment or medical care? I hope you just made an error in communication because you go on to say “all people are entitled to safe, legal medical care. It is a human right”. I am assuming that you everyone including undocumented residents because they are human as well. I, too, would like clarification.
I believe I stated ALL people are deserving of safe, legal medical care – my words were that it is a HUMAN right. I believe I also stated there were serious flaws within our “medical care” system – flaws that were highlighted in the original article (Anyone remember seeing anything on cutting costs for those who REALLY need the care?).
However, where I do diverge on this subject from the (apparant) consensus at hand is that just because you’re a legal resident does not mean you should be exempt from deportation. Funny – when I originally read that piece I was outraged as well (and still am in regards to the LACK of medical care we are providing these imprisoned people, makes me wonder what we do, or don’t do, for our own prison population) – until I got to the part where this woman was arrested for drug posession and incarcerated and set up for deportation because of that IN ADDITION TO her prior conviction of purchasing stolen jewelry (something the admin posted as being the SOLE reason for her imprisonment).
If you’re going to bring people to your side, be honest in your descriptions of the articles at hand. Selectively omitting that tidbit was a GL tactic…
It sounds like there are some real screwed up priorities in Fed-land.
“It sounds like there are some real screwed up priorities in Fed-land.”
In other words, “Business as Ususal”
Not me Bubba,
I can find ANYWHERE in the article where it says she was found with drugs. However, even is she was found with drugs, what does that have to do with her lack of treatment?
Elena:
Page 3. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/specials/immigration/cwc_d2p3.html
“After all her years in Florida, she would still drive to Tampa once a month to buy rice at a Korean grocery, but she also loved collard greens and black-eyed peas, was a die-hard Tampa Bay Buccaneers fan, and knew the lyrics to all of Brooks & Dunn’s country tunes.
In 2004, while she was riding with a friend, police stopped them for driving with expired tags. The car belonged to her friend, but the marijuana and methamphetamine on the floor were Harvill’s.
She pleaded guilty to drug possession and served her time. Ordinarily, that would have been that. But ICE had begun scouring jails and prisons nationwide for people it might be able to deport, and a check of Harvill’s criminal history turned up a decade-old felony conviction for buying stolen jewelry. Her lawyer insisted she’d had no idea it was stolen. A judge suspended the sentence and put her on probation, which was terminated early for good behavior.”
…
As I said, her lack of treatment is inhumane. All people are entitled to safe, legal medical care.
“However, even is she was found with drugs, what does that have to do with her lack of treatment?”
Nothing. I was addressing the triggering, misleading synopsis that is intended to pull people into this discussion. She wasn’t incarcerated for buying stolen jewelry – she was incarcerated for that AND a drug posession conviction. She should get the medical care she needs regardless of what she has done in the past. Hell, she even has private insurance through her husband!
i think emergency medical care is one thing, long term medical care is another. I dont think we should be on the hook for long term care. getting someone out of danger is another thing entirely. This is the responsibility of all medical professionals. I dont think anyone here believes that illegals should freeload off the system, but keeping them out of harms way benefits us all. I say vaccinate them for free and give them free emergency care (only if really an emergency). tough to make a decision here, I think everyone is entitled to medical care but it really burns me up that i’m paying for it for people who have no business being here. Let’s get them documented and into the system so we know how/where/what they are and then we’re talking.
“I say vaccinate them for free ”
Should be a mandatory component of getting a TIN. Get immunized and then get a TIN.
Not Me, Bubba, 12. May 2008, 11:36
Yes, now I see it, thanks for clarifying. However, it clearly says she did her time for that offense. I repeat once again, I’m not sure why that fact negates the sympathy you WOULD have had for her had she not been found with drugs.
Elvis,
There is a misconception about many vaccines, especially chicken pox.
“A recent Centers for Disease Control (CDC) study (Dec. 2002) reported that “the effectiveness of the vaccine was 44 percent against disease of any severity and 86 percent against moderate or severe disease.”
If you have overcrowded conditions, you are inviting contagious outbreaks even with vaccination, you can possibly reduce the number, but only reduce, not erradicate.
Not Me Bubba,
What about the deaths documented in the first part of the series in the Wash Post Sunday ?
“I repeat once again, I’m not sure why that fact negates the sympathy you WOULD have had for her had she not been found with drugs. ”
Where did I say I was unsympathetic? I believe I said what she has had to endure was INHUMAN. I think you’re reading something else from what I have been posting.
As for the deaths documented in the first part of the series – all needless, TRAGIC neglect that could have been prevented. Apparantly this country treats both citizens, legals and illegals the same when it comes to medical care – no insurance, no treatment….costly illness, no treatment…all for the love of the dollar and the bottom line.
I think you want me to brush these deaths/tragedies off because somehow you have decided that because I favor deporting illegals and law-breaking legal residents, I must automatically dismiss such blatant human rights abuses. But you couldn’t be more wrong.
Forgive me If I call out blatant misleading, like I did in my above posts…but it isn’t right if either side does it.
The care these people have received is terrible. If the government takes them into custody, then, I agree with what Elvis wrote above, that we have a medical responsiblity to get that person out of danger. Ethically we should do nothing less. This part of the system is reckless to say the least.
However, this woman is a twice convicted offender. Once for stolen property and the other for possession of meth and marijuanna. At least one felony (the drugs) and possibly another for the stolen goods. I have no heartburn over her being deported. She has the opportunity to live a decent, normal, crime free life and chose not too. There are too many good people without criminal records waiting to become citizens. Give her slot to someone who is not a twice convicted criminal.
duck,
agreed, we must ensure people get the proper emergency care. I have no solution for long term care other than to say I dont think it’s fair the american taxpayer foot the bill.
elena, I’m a firm believer in vaccinations. Even some effectiveness is better than nothing. I would much rather see these folks vaccinated for TB, Typhus and others than not. Many of the folks coming up from south america are known to have high rate of TB infections. we would be doing ourselves a disservice by not vaccinating them.
at least those children who are entering our public schools are vaccinated
Not Me Bubba,
I am not in total disagreement with you. The story I see unfolding is now moving from illegal to legal status and what that means. The story I see unfolding is an immigration enforcement policy that is costing people’s lives. Were it not for the untold amount of people being held because we have a broken immigration policy, she would be getting the care she needed. The story is about substandard care while people are in the custody of the United States. I also am wondering, all these private facilities, who owns them, where are out tax dollars going, how much money am I paying to have people kept in substandard conditions? On one side you have people yelling that all illegals are criminals, deport them all, but clearly, that is not possible.
Our immigration policy, broken as it is, has been taking people’s lives for a long time – border crossings are much more difficult now and the death toll has been rising.
I am not sure Elena, that this woman didn’t get the care because of the “untold amount of people being held because we have a broken immigration policy” but rather because the operators of the system are inexperienced in dealing with such issues. Our country has tens of thousands more people in jails and they seem to deal with such situations in a much more professional manner. It is only in the last three years or so that the sudden influx of people into immigration holding facilities has overwhelmed the system. Remember, ICE only started checking the jails for potential violators in the last two years. Raids have increased dramatically in the last two years and finally, State and Locals are now putting people into the system. Plus, politically, immigration enforcement is a popular tactic with the American people right now.
I am not at all defending the treatment or making excuses. There is no excuse for such treatment of anyone – illegally here or legally here. Its unethical, immoral and simply wrong. I am just trying to point out why some of these issues happen.
“Were it not for the untold amount of people being held because we have a broken immigration policy, she would be getting the care she needed.”
She should be getting the care she needs – regardless…and the fact she has a private insurance policy to pay her bills makes this situation even more deplorable….she HAS access to care, but is being denied. Despicable.
“I also am wondering, all these private facilities, who owns them, where are out tax dollars going, how much money am I paying to have people kept in substandard conditions? ”
Ah the fedghettos…follow the $$$$.
Lucky Duck,
I think we are saying the same thing 🙂 The system, as it is now set up, is not prepared for the number of detainees we are arresting. Yes, immigration enforcement is popular with a certain sect of the american population, probably not that much different with each large influx that has happened in the past. It is easy to see how an issue with no real concensus building leadership can get out of control.
It’s stuff like this that makes the world think we are barbarians. If we are denying people emergency healthcare and routine treatment in our prisons, what else can be said of us?
What would the medical outcome for some of these people be if they were back in their home countries versus a US compound? Even bad medical treatment is better than none.
I think it is the way you spin it that people perceive it on National News. If it is not possible to have a “zero” medical incident rate of “death, injury, malpractice, neglect, mistake, or misdiagnosis, in the VERY BEST hospitals we have, then it is also not possible to guarantee, these same incidents happen in a jail or detention center, or REMEMBER this one? “VA Hospital”.
Although I agree we should determine and fix any policy or process that has “intentional” neglect”, and that warrents immediate national attention and concern, I’ll bet the incident rate in any of our counties emergency rooms is probably worse than the incident rate this article refers to.
We cannot focus on the “numbers” again to scream racism, and discrimmination again, as always no-one will ever be able to find the real truth in terms of “intent” with numbers being used as a yeard stick.
The issue of neglect must be determined with the “medical care standard applied, the resources available and the funding available. This same standard must be applied to our county emergency rooms and our government VA hospitals.
I suspect, the medical staff is doing the best it can, with the “free” talent it has, the “funded” talent it has been given, and the “medical policy and standards it has been told to follow.” I doubt this is anything more than a few isolated incidents of a magnitude less than you will find in any county hospital. It just makes a hot news story and a good argument for not detaining “illegal” immigrants, since some of them might get sick, and a few may die, in the normal course of medical misdiagnosis and malpractice of the kind found in any hospital (It happens). The issue is whether the courts will allow medical malpractice lawsuits, as in the case of Guantonimo Bay. Although those people at
BG were prisoners of war, these people are prisoners of a US detention system, and the detention centers may be limited by the government medical policy and resources available, that may be spread just as thinly across all jails, or even US troops, if any military or federal medical resources are provided.
I have a related question about equal medical standards, one I do not know the answer to.
Does everyone who comes into an emergency room. claiming they fear their cancer is returning, but who does not have medical insurance that covers cancer, get cancer treatment?
What happens when they have to pay for it themselves, in our own county hospitals and cannot afford the treatment?
Is this a double standard, if they receive cancer treatment in our jails or detention centers but not in our county hospitals? Do we care less for our legal permanent residents and citizens, than we care for our “illegal” detainees?
Sometimes I think you just have to look at the “whole picture” before you claim abuse and neglect. It is all about the medical standards, not the “numbers”.
“Does everyone who comes into an emergency room. claiming they fear their cancer is returning, but who does not have medical insurance that covers cancer, get cancer treatment?”
Michael, I believe they at least get tested and go from there.
I think it’s the same process if, say, you go in with extreme pain and tell them, “I’m pretty sure it’s my gall bladder.” They will test to see if it IS your gall bladder since you’ve had prior history and know about it.
People who have no medical insurance usually rack up bills knowing that they can’t pay them. Or, they apply for some kind of aid. This is a problem throughout the U.S. and not specific to the immigrant population.
What it comes down to is that everyone deserves emergency medical care and disease treatment. Malpractice is always bad, but when it happens in prisons and institutions, it’s always more high profile. All the more reason to hurry up with immigration reform–the longer we wait, the more stories like these will make us all look like a bunch of Neanderthals.
“Even bad medical treatment is better than none.”
SA, that’s like saying, “Even moldy bread is better than no bread.” Either way, if you eat it, you die!
The U.S. healthcare system is a tragedy in itself, and the poorest of the poor are lucky if they can even access the most basic emergency care. In rural Appalachia, the death rates for all cancers (176.3 per 100,000 population; 95% CI=±1.2) and all Appalachia (173.1; 95% CI=±0.7) were significantly higher than the corresponding U.S. death rate for this period (166.7; 95% CI=±0.2) (Table). The death rates for lung cancer were significantly higher in rural Appalachia and in Appalachia as a whole than in the United States overall, and the rural Appalachian cervical cancer death rate and the Appalachian colorectal cancer death rate were significantly higher than the corresponding overall U.S. rate.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5124a3.htm
No one should go without essential healthcare, but we have plenty of completely underserved brothers and sisters who receive very little–or no–media attention, do not have powerful interest groups behind them, have not committed any crimes and continue to live in the direst conditions imaginable. Where are the tears for those families?
Still “in moderation”? Humph.
SA,
I think the point you are missing is that when you are imprisoned, you don’t have a CHOICE, you are at the mercy of your prison system. And, I just wonder, if this were someone you cared about, somone you knew, if you would be so dismissive of their death or poor care. I would guess that you would not be so willing to settle for treatment that one nurse is quoted as saying :
“Nurses who work on the front lines see the problems up close. “Dogs get better care in the dog pound,” said Catherine Rouse, a contract nurse at an Arizona detention center who quit after two months last year because she saw what she regarded as “scary medicine” in the prison: patients taken off medications they needed and nurses doing tasks they were not qualified to do. “You don’t treat people like that. There has to be some kind of moral fiber,” Rouse said.”
Really, is this they type of behavior that makes a country proud?
Emma,
I agree with you 100% ! We have such a broken health care system. I mean, when a 12 year old boy dies from a freakin’ cavity, you know our we have some serious issues in this country!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/27/AR2007022702116.html
http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=c990f7a9de1f35b7a1c906269a12fe99
And this, One Strike You’re Out –
http://www.chicagoreporter.com/index.php/c/Inside_Stories/d/One_Strike,_You're_Out
Bring it on,
I can only read the first link. Wow, does this man even speak Italian? I guess this means every person legally here, but not an actual citizen, should be running to earn full citizenship! Who would have known there would be so little protection from deportation. I can understand in specific circumstances why deportation would be necessary, but that judges have no disrection is ridiculous.
Come on folks, my question was do you think that they would be better off in their own country as far as medical treatment? Stop taking me out of context, and answer the question. I’ll change my line to say any medical treatment is better than none. By the way, I don’t think you would die if you eat molding bread. It’s telling how everyone avoided the question though. I’ll not take one nurse’s words to tell the whole story, but if that is what you prefer then my daughter could tell you volumes of the cost to our hospitals from immigrants that get top notch care and don’t pay a dime. Unlike a tax paying citizen that pays through the nose for child birth. I could also tell you how they generally disobey hospital rules, which constantly interferes with providing medical care, and endangers the health of surrounding patients, but then you’d only blame it on the hospital or something else anyway.
FYI,
Due to the recent confirmed tuberculosis case at Osbourn High School, a Community Health Forum will be held at the school at 9005 Tudor Lane at 7 p.m Thursday in the school auditorium.
Thanks to all those crossing our borders without medical screening!
I looked at the above link, I sympathize but although the person was a legal resident he was not a citizen. he had ample opportunity (most of his life) to do so and he did not. so their are rules attached to this and although it seems odd and for a relatively minor issue that’s the law. Basically when you become a legalized resident you should know these things and should know to stay clear of problems that could lead you to be deported. In most cases this leads people to become permanent citizens. when you start making exceptions to rules, they become less “rules” and more “guidelines”. eventually they become annoyances and then we have anarchy. If we want the “rules” changed that’s why we have elected officials, write them and tell them what you feel/want since you elected them. so that’s my take, the guy should be deported and his family can work it out from this side. that’s assuming italy wants the guy either. there have been cases where people like this have become stateless. many countries do not want criminals, however minor.
SA,
Please show me the factual evidence you have showing this TB case is due to an illegal immigrant crossing the border.
I hope that SA is generalizing here. TB and drug-Resistant TB are known to come from undeveloped areas and has extremely high concentrations in third-world countries and in mexico. I’m concerned for sure, actually I’m very concerned. One of the many reasons why my children do not attend public school around these parts.
SecondAlamo,
We could have this problem fixed in a year, as soon as we bring these people out of the shadows. We have to require them to become legal, set the guidelines for them to follow, and one of the first conditions would be a medical exam.
“We have to require them to become legal, set the guidelines for them to follow, and one of the first conditions would be a medical exam.”
Wait – isn’t it a requirement that all children entering public/private/pariochal school have ALL the required vaccinations by law?
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/05/13/20080513iowaraid.html
A huge ICE raid, bigger than the last ones according to news reports. What ticked me off here is a woman (identity withheld) said she was from mexico (she is really from guatemala) she told ice she was from mexico so when she’s deported she can re-enter the U.S. again easier. If that’s not blatant violation of the law I dont know what is. Totally ludicrous and unreal.
Well, what ticks me off is that a meat packing plant is no picnic, no free ride, and that the elvises don’t acknowledge that these workers are contributing to the economy. It’s disgusting work and I don’t get all bent out of shape because people enter the country to work there. I’m all for stopping illegal immigration so that people will stop risking their lives, and can live without fear of abusive employers.
the elvises do acknowledge that they are contributing, they are..in many cases to mexico or whom evers economy. dont you get the fact that this woman said she was intentionally breaking the law and that she was perfectly willing to do it again?
so elvises do understand and acknowledge…to a point where it becomes unreasonable. this case is unreasonable and this person should be deported as she shows intent to flaunt the law. if she would have remained silent (my advice) she likely would not be deported.
there are many jobs that are “no picnic” no one says they need to be filled by workers. these people want the jobs and the employers cater to them. I’m happy they want the jobs, better them than me and I do like a good hamburger so more power too them…however she did break the law and admitted to it so that does it for me.
and…I would lay odds that the bulk of the people in this case (except this woman however) would be issued orders to appear at immigration court and released, which they most likely will not attend the hearing. Just as in almost every other case this happens. ICE makes a big show to appease people and then releases them (or most of them)
“Just as in almost every other case this happens. ICE makes a big show to appease people and then releases them (or most of them)”
Oh well, Elvis, no need to keep going around and around. All the more reason that the laws must be revised so that such shows are no longer needed, and the need for workers are acknowledged.
fire,
hit up your elected officials if you want the law changed, I do and so should you. people complain all they want, that’s what people do best. do something about it.