9500Liberty has released another new video, this is a flashback to the marathon session from October 16th. This gentleman’s words are rather prophetic, the struggle did continue after the vote, by other Americans who think like him.
I want to make this very clear, I oppose illegal immigration. I especially do not want anybody risking life or limb to gain entry to this country. However, I recognize many injustices in our immigration policy, and it is my opinion, in order to resolve the problem, it will, in part, require that undocumented individuals become legalized.
Update: BVBL claims this gentleman is Jeff Winder. I have no first-hand knowledge of whether or not this is true. BVBL posts it as a question, so perhaps he’s not convinced either. I don’t know Jeff Winder, his affiliations or idealogy. I will say, the picture that BVBL has posted does bear a striking resemblance to the gentleman in the video. If they are, in fact, one in the same, obviously I do not subscribe to everything that someone believes in when I agree with them for 3 minutes. Apparently, BVBL desperately wants to categorize me, I’ll make it easy, call me a Republican.
I stand by what I said concerning this gentleman Citizens’ Time comments. I’ve reviewed the video and find nothing overly objectionable in his content or delivery.
I liken illegal immigration to speeding on the nation’s highways. Even though we may never stop it completely we must make all effort to prevent it otherwise chaos will ensue.
Your wanting to make those breaking our laws legal is as if saying that due to the shear numbers of lawbreakers we should just eliminate the law. This philosophy could be applied to any number of laws and rules, and that is a slippery slope you don’t want to go down! The rule is don’t make a law if it’s not going to be enforced, and if a law exists then it must be enforced. That’s a simple rule that if followed will prevent all this constant bickering.
Actually, this is excellent logic. Laws that are ignored or can’t be enforced should be changed or elimnated. Prohabition (as one example) comes to mind. This philosophy can (and should) be applied to any number of laws and rules. I, for one, would like to apply it to our Nation’s drug laws.
I’m a Libertarian. Fewer laws means smaller government and lower taxes. That’s a good thing.
I abide by the law, but I would also like to work to change laws that do harm.
Here’s a viewpoint from a recovering alcoholic in AA’s “Big Book”:
“I have seen that there is only one law, the law of love, and there are only two sins; the first is to interfere with the growth of another human being, and the second is to interfere with one’s own growth.”
This blog promotes growth!
America needs immigrants. Without population growth the country will not survive. We are not populating our country as in the past and, since all the baby boomers are moving out the workforce, there needs to be someone who can support this country financially. Immigration makes good economical sense. My preference would be for all immigrants to come here legally. I, too, do not want anybody risking life gain entry to this country. I also agree there are many injustices with our immigration policy and to resolve the problem it will require some action by our Federal gov’t to inact a comprehensive immigration policy. The system is broken. There is no reason why anyone would have to wait 10-15 years to get papers. It is also my opinion, that we need to do whatever we can to allow undocumented individuals become legalized. There are many ways that can be accomplished.
I’m not for changing laws because they are unenforceable. Americans can accomplish anything we set our minds to; and if this is truly the policy we WANT, then we can do it. Having said that, there is a cost to doing so; which is part of the equation that should be weighed.
I suggest we closely exam our existing policies and actions or inaction that have permitted illegal immigration to continue for decades. If it means altering the 14th Amendment so that persons born on US soil don’t automatically gain citizenship, changing property ownership rights, implementing e-verify, changing banking requirements, etc… OK. But I do have concerns about REAL ID. In my mind, it’s as equally disturbing as the suggestion of a North American Union but I digress.
In general, my position which is a result of my first-hand knowledge, combined with a basic understanding of our immigration policy leads me to the following conclusion: Everyone that entered prior to 4/2001 that would have been eligible for adjustment of status under 245(i) should immediately be required to become legal; of course that means providing the process. The steps would include things like background check, medical exam etc… Additionally, I strongly oppose sending US citizen children to 3rd world countries or separating them from their families. This in my mind is simply UN-AMERICAN.
This is a complicated issue that goes beyond the sound-bite “What part of ILLEGAL don’t you understand?” and deserves a well thought out response, not an emotional knee-jerk reaction.
“We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.
To George Washington this meant,
The bosom of America is open to receive not only the opulent and respectable stranger, but the oppressed and persecuted of all nations and religions, whom we should welcome to a participation of all our rights and privileges. ”
Written by Ken Schooland in an article Are Illegal Immigrants Criminals? Not!
I like the site changes with the white background. I read frequently, but rarely comment. You are doing a good job.
Ah Marie, clearly you are not a constructionist of the Constitution but an activist, at least in that area. When Mr. Washington spoke those eloquent words, there was no immigration law, but times have changed in the 228 years or so from that quote. We DO have immigration laws and while a violation of them is, at first, a civil violation, it is a violation none the less. Other violations of the immigration code do in fact, turn criminal. Supreme court rulings in those intervening 228 years have deemed immigration policy to be law and violators in some instances, to be criminal.
You are correct Lucky Duck. I am not a contructionist but am an activist. I know we have immigration laws. Unfortunately the laws, until recently, really have not been enforced and I truly believe that we need to overhaul the system. Like I said in an earlier post, I know not everyone who would like to come to the US can and it is crazy to believe that we can take everyone with the desire to be here. I do think, however, that we need immigration reform and undocumented in this country should have a path to get papers and citizenship. I believe what was true in George Washington’s time should still be true today. We are a land of immigrants. My grandfather was an immigrant and I am blessed to live with the privilege. By the way he had no papers. He came from Greece on a ship. When her arrive in the US, he got a job, got a social security number and opened his own business.
Like I posted in the other thread, there will have to be compromises in any legislation. I am not for anmesty for all those that are here. But I am a realist that they ARE here and must be dealt with. Those with criminal records of any type should not, in my opinon, be given a path to citizenship. Those slots (lets say there are 12 millon illegals or undocumented people here) out of the 12 million should be given to those countries who do not share a border with us for their immigration lottery system we use for people waiting to come here the legal way.
After that path has been established, anyone caught entering here illegally should be deported. No sob stories about their lot in life, their children or their love for America. If they do not follow the path that is established or enter illegally after that legislation is debuted, they must be deported. Otherwise, we’ll wind up in the same spot ten years from now. Just my opinon.
duck,
totally agree with you. we are of like mindset. There are enough criminals in this country to already and to start importing them would be bad to say the least.
alanna/elena,
what’s up with you guys/gals? you slip something in my drink or something? I’ve been agreeing with you all too much lately and I’m starting to wonder here what’s up.
I think that guy is a dead-on match for the guy over on BVBL, from my 5 minutes of research on the web I dont like him.
“I think that guy is a dead-on match for the guy over on BVBL”
Me too…..
Yes, his name is Jeff Winder. He learned some Spanish and made a meaningful speech. Robert Duecaster did the same only he spoke in English. Both guys have been posted here and on other blogs. What’s the big deal?
what’s the big deal? I dont know, he’s up on your website/video so you should be telling us right?
Eric,
Fair enough question update and explanation from Alanna.
The question would be do you support such a cause that BVBL is SUGGESTING/SPIN?
I always think it is best to get the answers STRAIGHT from the horses mouth…with EVERY relationship…
SecondAlamo, 14. May 2008, 5:32
I liken illegal immigration to speeding on the nation’s highways. Even though we may never stop it completely we must make all effort to prevent it otherwise chaos will ensue.
Your wanting to make those breaking our laws legal is as if saying that due to the shear numbers of lawbreakers we should just eliminate the law. This philosophy could be applied to any number of laws and rules, and that is a slippery slope you don’t want to go down! The rule is don’t make a law if it’s not going to be enforced, and if a law exists then it must be enforced. That’s a simple rule that if followed will prevent all this constant bickering.
KENNETH SAID NOT SCREAMED – I DISAGREE. YOU FORGET WHOSE LAWS WE ARE TALKING ABOUT – FEDERAL LAWS – PEOPLE AROUND HERE ACT LIKE VIGILANTES…THE FED GOVT HAS NOT DONE SOMETHING WITH THE ISSUES BECAAUSE THERE IS NO REASONABLE PROPOSAL ON THE TABLE. GIVEN THAT THE FEDERAL GOVT CANT DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT DOES NOT GIVE PWC THE AUTHORITY, RIGHT OR COMPETENCE TO DEAL WITH THE ISSUES…..WE ARE NOT THE ENFORCERS!!
Cindy B, 14. May 2008, 10:41
I abide by the law, but I would also like to work to change laws that do harm.
Here’s a viewpoint from a recovering alcoholic in AA’s “Big Book”:
“I have seen that there is only one law, the law of love, and there are only two sins; the first is to interfere with the growth of another human being, and the second is to interfere with one’s own growth.”
This blog promotes growth!
KENNETH SAID NOT SCREAMED – YOU ARE SO RIGHT CINDY…..EXCELLENT ANOLOGY!!!
LuckyDuck, 14. May 2008, 13:28
Ah Marie, clearly you are not a constructionist of the Constitution but an activist, at least in that area. When Mr. Washington spoke those eloquent words, there was no immigration law, but times have changed in the 228 years or so from that quote. We DO have immigration laws and while a violation of them is, at first, a civil violation, it is a violation none the less. Other violations of the immigration code do in fact, turn criminal. Supreme court rulings in those intervening 228 years have deemed immigration policy to be law and violators in some instances, to be criminal.
KENNETH SAID NOT SCREAMED………..WELL WITH THAT LOGIC……THE US MARSHALS AND US ATTORNEYS SOULD BE ENFORCING……NOT THE COUNTY POLICE DUHHHH
I have no idea what cause is being “spun” over there. Jeff Winder is a “character” in the feature length version of the film. As is Robert Duecaster, as is Corey Stewart, as is Chief Deane, as is Marty Nohe, as are YOU Red Dawn if you dare to come out of hiding (= The main reason I posted that video to the channel was I was curious about what was being said. You see, when I was in 11th grade in Honolulu, I often copied my sister’s Spanish homework on the way to school. If Robert Duecaster spoke in another language I could easily have posted a video with him in it last night — wait a second, I’ve ALREADY posted a video or two with Robert Duecaster in it!
Just to be safe, let me set the record straight:
I do not believe this country is being invaded. I do not believe this invasion is being funded by foreign governments. And I am not going to repel this invasion one way or another.
Likewise, what ever is being “spun” about Jeff Winder, and whatever is true about Jeff Winder, I am no more the owner of his thoughts and deeds than I am of Mr. Duecaster’s.
“Likewise, what ever is being “spun” about Jeff Winder, and whatever is true about Jeff Winder, I am no more the owner of his thoughts and deeds than I am of Mr. Duecaster’s.”
AND
“Update: BVBL claims this gentleman is Jeff Winder. I have no first-hand knowledge of whether or not this is true. BVBL posts it as a question, so perhaps he’s not convinced either. I don’t know Jeff Winder, his affiliations or idealogy. I will say, the picture that BVBL has posted does bear a striking resemblance to the gentleman in the video. If they are, in fact, one in the same, obviously I do not subscribe to everything that someone believes in when I agree with them for 3 minutes. Apparently, BVBL desperately wants to categorize me, I’ll make it easy, call me a Republican.
I stand by what I said concerning this gentleman Citizens’ Time comments. I’ve reviewed the video and find nothing overly objectionable in his content or delivery.”
NEXT!
I got my answer and hope YOU all do TOO.
Ask and you shall receive. 🙂
Actually, it makes even less sense for BVBL to accuse 9500Liberty of endorsing this man’s idealogy since they have videos from all perspectives. Go figure.
Admin,
I agree 1,000%
and I was comfortable and agree with your answer.
Elvis,
Your an attorney? Or have the training? ( I ASSUME from what I have gathered and we know what they say about assuming 🙂 )
What is the best defense, DOUBT?
I cannot agree with an open border philosphy, but I still think this speech was impassioned and the message was one of understanding and unity, that is what I will take from this clip. That is NOT the same as calling people parasites or “invaders” or cockroaches, like many of those on the extreme other side. People can choose to take from this speech what they will and fall for Greg’s spin of paranoia and government subversion. In the end, it is another point of view, maybe if we can find that middle ground instead, like Lucky D suggests, we might just find reason and sanity, have been living there, all along.
Elvis,
I have been trying to figure out why that is happening….You doing ok out there in cyberland????
I want to know what makes Greg think that this man was “promoted as the voice of reason” by 9500Liberty and what “local illegal alien blogs” he is referring to?
“I’m not quite sure, but isn’t this new standard-bearer of the illegal alien lobby, promoted as the voice of reason and rational public policy on 9500Liberty and promoted in local illegal alien apologist blogs none other than Jeff Winder? If it is, the local illegal alien lobby couldn’t have picked a bigger nutball to point to as the voice of reason in Prince William County. This guy makes Ricardo Juarez of Mexicanos Sin Fronteras seem somewhat rational.”
http://www.bvbl.net/index.php/2008/05/14/the-open-borders-crowd-gets-a-new-standard-bearer/
Moon-howler,
I think Elvis likes to ask questions as much as I do, LOL!!!!!!
Eric,
“As is Robert Duecaster, as is Corey Stewart, as is Chief Deane, as is Marty Nohe, as are YOU Red Dawn if you dare to come out of hiding (=”
That’s easy, I am the CUTE ONE! LOL
I’ve been doing great,
i’m spending an awful lot of time at work but otherwise cool as a cucumber 🙂
Alanna 10:49, Interesting fear of RealID
Are you afraid of your social security number? Are you afraid to give it to your bank? Are you afraid to give it to your employer? Are you afraid to give it to a company requesting it before they will do business with you?
If you are not afraid of this, you should not be afraid of RealID. It is actually encrypted with third party verification. Your open text SSN number is not. Your credit card is not, and with eoither number system it is very easy for anyone to steal it, steal your identty and leave you with the bill.
RealID and National ID can prevent identity theft, ensure people who are they say they are and secure our borders and secure our counties from people overstaying thier visas.
I don’t quite unserstand what people are afraid of as the government has always had records for you associated with your SSN number, and this information is easily accesible for any institution or government party that asks for it or your credit card information and credit liability. I would be much more afraid of the current credit process and SSN availability that I would ever be afraid of an encrypted third party verified RealID card to present to legitimate businesses. They, like your fingerprint and iris scan are much much more difficult to duplicate than your simple SSN number, plain text bank account and credit card, with your street address records associated with your bank and credit card account.
What the government does not have records for are the “illegal” immigrants. Thi card would help to fix that problem and clearly identify legal from “illegal” when required to present it to a public official. It will verify your I-90 status and password and citizenship, permananet resident status immediately to law enforcement and ICE.
Michael,
I wonder if you are the same Michael that I talked to about Salvation ( bare with me folks, this IS a religious topic)
I will start first with if you are the same Michael that I had a conversation with on a different blog and if so what does Salvation mean to you?
I know this will SPIN a lot of heads…what is Red Dawn talking about….LOL
I am just trying to get a perspective and ALSO share my concern about the real Id bs….
Interesting position that we (PWC) should not be the enforcers of the law. We the citizens of the country are always the “creators of the law”, and we are also entitled by the constitution to enforce those laws, by militia if necessary if we do not agree with the government. We have always had a right to bears arms against the government if necessary at the State and at the local level. (The practical issue is we would not likely win unless we had significantly greater numbers than the current US Armed forces (it would be a civil war), the army divided politically at the senior leadership level, and most importantly we had a “moral” position that justified the call to arms, and had sufficient weaponry to carry out and win (or else we will be jailed and put in prison for treason. It is an interesting concept, but always a legal right.
Practically we are entitled to have our local police and law enforcement to enfoce the law, and we have a right as citizens to demand that our local police enforce the law, when the federal government and state government will not. That is also a constitutional right.
You must not forget that 287G is a US law enforcement action, supported by our local law enforcement. We are in bed together, using the same equitable law the same for all people, regardless of gender, religion, race or ethnic group.
To solve our, “illegal” problem, we simply enforce the law, over a LONG period of time. People who are “illegal” will eventually leave because they cannot find “legal” work, and will be under threat of “legal” action for “illegal” behavior. That is what stops crime, laws that are enforced. It is that simple.
We had a very long discussion about Salvation Red Dawn. The direct answer to your question is “Yes” I believe in Salvation”. I’m not quite sure I follow the logic of your question however regarding relevance to law enforcement of “man-made doctrine”.
Michael,
You haven’t responded to my question as of yet, although it may post as you have LATER.
SCRATCH the Salvation thing…the question and CONCERN is still the same for people about the real id bs…BIG BROTHER comes to mind and I am sorry I see that as a police state, loss of FREEDOM, what America was based on
MIchael,
Sorry, you posted as I was typing…
How do you COMFORT my concern and other people who may not even believe in a God ( i.e. Atheist) about the Big Brother scenario?
Salvation means what it means in the second covenant, there is no other path to life everlasting than to believe in Christ. To fail to believe in Christ is the only unforgivable sin. All other sins are forgivable. No other sin will keep you out of heaven and no set of good works or acts will gain you entry into heaven. All else that describes some concept different than this is “man-made” doctrine of the kind found in thouands of religions and ideas, beliefs, acts and rituals in a thousand different types of churchs and ritualistic organizations.
People of these “man-made” doctrines are afraid of death, that is why they create religions and create man-made doctrine to oppress people with “rules” and “obligations” as a means to salvation and a means to get into heaven. These are false doctrines.
That is as simple as I can answer your question, “what does it mean to “me”?
Oh, I think Big Brother is actually us. Anything you do could wind up on YouTube if you aren’t careful what with all the camera phones ; )
Real ID does not take your freedom away. It is not “big brother”, it is a security card better than your social security card, encrypted to prevent theft of your identy, made to verify your legal status or “illegal” status, in the same way your social security card, passport, I-90 and birth Certificate identify your “legal” status. I think you are afraid because of what you hear, not what you know about security and identity “verification” concepts, knowns as authentication, authorization, non-repudiation, and encryption. All protect your identy, rather than reveal it, except to legally entitled law enforcement officers or holders of legal court orders if you commit a crime, or are summuned to court for a hearing about an alleged crime. Your freedom to be governned by the law and only by the law id not lost with a REALID card, anymore than presenting your SSN or Credit card to an institution would allow “big brother” to spy on you. “Big brother” in its entire concept is really the law enforcement branch of the government enforcing legal laws and judges ruling on who broke the law and who did not.
Michael,
I am in total agreement with everything you said. I DO!
Next question, are you saying that the Bible is man made doctrine? I ( and maybe this is MY answer to my question to you) know it to be God’s word.
I believe in not works, rituals, etc… I do believe in what it has predicted and has and WILL come to pass.
I believe in the Rapture and signs of him coming again…. ( sorry, it will turn some of you off, but hey, this is MY personal belief 🙂 )
This is why I have a hard time with the real id and moving forward to such a state BUT then again, it was spelled out in the Bible things to come.
SAs point is much closer to the truth, and the twisting of facts in lies and half-truths, imcomplete coverage, manipulated messages, important details left out and political agendas disguised as “factual” when in fact they are not (9500 liberty media manipulation included) by activists and media institutions to create these “groups” desired political outcomes. What I object to most is that these “facts” are twisted to benefit members of groups aligned only along racial, gender, religious or ethnic group lines.
This is a recent cancer on our country emerging in the past 15 years of political activism led by “social engineers” with socialist and marxist belief systems.
There is an excellent article over at AlterNet concerning the fiasco with Arizona’s immigration policy that was ever more harsh than here in PWC:
“Why Harsh Immigration Crackdowns Will Never Work”
http://www.alternet.org/immigration/85022/
It also discusses an overall successful program in Los Angeles, and should provide fuel to rebut those people spreading around “facts” about the resources sucked up by “Illegal Immigrants.”
God gave you the wisdom and the “go-ahead” to test everything you read against the “entire” scripture. Even the possibility that the organizers of the Canon, may have gotten some of it wrong. I’m not saying they did, just that the measuring stick, is not following the “rules” as much (because they can be oppressive on some and beneficial to others even under the same law) as the personal nature of your relatioship with your Father. There is in this sense only one “rule”, i.e. “believe in me”, the rest is how you interpret that relationship from the words you read and use to evaluate how you approach your relationship with God and with others. Typically this is brotherly love. The interesting issue is how do you deal with man-made law?
Social law? Christ did not say we should ignore all law enforcement, or that we should follow all law, as some laws “even religious ones that are not valid according to the second covenant” can be very oppressive and require us to be perfect when we cannot be as imperfect man, especially if they are a result of man-made doctrine or “interpretation” of scripture. God did not prohibit man-made law made to protect ourselves from harm by others. It is my belief he also did not prohibit us from defending ourselves or our nation from those that would do us harm. These issues are not easily carved by “ocum’s razor” into good and bad.
The saving “grace” and God’s 2nd covenant is that none of these “legal” issues will ever prevent us from gaining entry into heaven (many do not understand this concept). There is only one unforgivable sin.
MIchael,
Do you think the Bible/ Koran ( sp? ) and such is man made doctrine?
Michael,
We were again typing at the same time.
I do agree with it is of faith and there is only ONE unforgivable sin and that is not to believe.( for all of you NON believers, you have nothing to worry about right? 🙂 )
I think about the people in the jungles that collect rain water on leaves, etc…..and have heard about God and have the PERSONAL decision to make, to accept or not…. will they NOT be saved because they have not followed the “laws” or “rules”
SHOOT, the Vatican JUST came out with the OKAY that you can believe in ET…LOL!
Did that word get spread to the tree tribe? ( and no, that is not being racist, I watch the discovery channel)
I have thought a lot about this “illegal” issue in the context of scripture, and my conclusion is the “illegal” side of humanity is harming “the legal poor and the young” more than it is helping the “illegal” poor, and the financial, and social prosperity for the greater good of everyone in this great nation of ours, not just a few “illegals”. I have made a judgment call, based on my scriptural assessment of who is doing the greater harm to my fellow man, the “illegals” in my community or the “legals” in my community.
There is “pain and suffering” on both sides. Because of this I choose to support the “legal” community on this issue.
individual Rights not “group rights” and liberty is the path to freedom and happiness, socialism and marxism is not, that leads to poverty and misery. I am against “diversity” concepts because it harms many and advantages only a few. I have only to look at the rest of the world to see this in its actual social consequence. This is why I have always felt Christ was a “liberator” in how he treated government doctrine and law, advocating tpo protect the individual, not the “group” privilege and advantage over all others, based on race, religion, gender or ethn ic group. Christ was an “integrator” not a cultural “divider”, that is wht I am against cultural division, conflict, and social engineering that divided the national identity of good people. Christ also spoke in a comman “language” to all. Not a language they people he was addressing did not understand. I’m all for an integrating language, to promote peace and prosperity in the world. I am not for multi-languages that divide it and keep it in conflict.
Michael.
“There is “pain and suffering” on both sides. Because of this I choose to support the “legal” community on this issue.”
YES, I agree with this concept as there has to be some start/control point or things get out of whack and I do believe things have been LEFT UNDONE and are out of whack!
and to add to my comment about tree people…this is what I am talking about, do these people keep up on current events and “man made” doctrine and ever changing laws?
If not where do their souls go?
elvis, 14. May 2008, 17:43
You know Elvis, I’ll tell you what I think 🙂 I believe it is easier to work towards a positive solution with less hate and anger. I find Greg and his ilk, draining to me emotionally. Why do you think you find yourself agreeing with us more ?
P.S. maybe we will meet in person at the next economic party!
Ron Charest, 14. May 2008, 21:47
Welcome Ron Charest and thanks for posting this great article, I think it may deserve it’s own thread!
Elvis,
Glad to hear it. I wondered myself if Elena/Alanna had slipped you a mickey or something. You are getting awfully agreeable.
Don’t spend too much time at work on these beautiful days, now the great flood has passed.
Ron Charest, thank you! That article was elucidating and easily digestible even for the bumper sticker politicians who too often seize control of the debate.
It certainly deserves its own thread, Elena. From the moment you create that new thread, anyone with the attention span necessary to read an entire article will have the same thought when some deceived zealot pops off with “what part of illegal don’t you understand.” Read the article.
http://www.alternet.org/immigration/85022/
Yes, read the article, and watch the video in upper right corner if you’d like news reporter voices and pretty pictures to go with it.
Oh, and just to preemptively rebut the head-in-the-sanders:
I don’t care if the author is related to a Hispanic person. I don’t care if he knows, or once dated a Hispanic person. I don’t care if he IS A HISPANIC PERSON and he owns stock in a company that hired an undocumented Hispanic janitor in 1982. You can cook up anything you’d like to excuse yourself from considering the validity of his research and the substance of his argument. But that article obliterates your asinine and ignorant talking points no matter how deep your heads are buried in sound-proof sound.
The truth for you and for those big dumb birds who try to hide that way is that you blind yourself, but everyone else can still see.
Sound-proof sand, not sound-proof sound. Darn it.