Today’s Journal Messenger has an Opinion Editorial concerning the Liberty Street Sign.
107 Thoughts to “Sign Saga Continued”
Comments are closed.
Archives
Categories
Blogroll
- 9500Liberty
- Bacons' Rebellion Blogspot
- Bearing Drift
- Blue Virginia
- Citizen Tom
- Counts of Monte Cristo. The
- Derecho, The
- Dixie Pig, The
- My Side of the Fence
- My Star Journey
- NARAL Pro-Choice VA Blog
- New Dominion Project
- Nova Common Sense
- NovaTownHall Blog
- One Libertarians's Point of View by Al Alborn
- Pete Candland's Blog
- Potomac Local
- Prince William Muckraker
- PW Conservation Alliance
- PWC Moms
- PWCPolitics.com
- PWCPolitics.com
- Red NoVA
- Shad Plank, The
- She the People
- State of NoVA, the
- The Jeffersoniad
- Townhall
- VEA Daily Reports
- VivianPaige
- WDGolden.com
- You, Me and the Lamp Post
All contents copyright Moonhowlings.net
Blogroll
- 9500Liberty
- Bacons' Rebellion Blogspot
- Bearing Drift
- Blue Virginia
- Citizen Tom
- Counts of Monte Cristo. The
- Derecho, The
- Dixie Pig, The
- My Side of the Fence
- My Star Journey
- NARAL Pro-Choice VA Blog
- New Dominion Project
- Nova Common Sense
- NovaTownHall Blog
- One Libertarians's Point of View by Al Alborn
- Pete Candland's Blog
- Potomac Local
- Prince William Muckraker
- PW Conservation Alliance
- PWC Moms
- PWCPolitics.com
- PWCPolitics.com
- Red NoVA
- Shad Plank, The
- She the People
- State of NoVA, the
- The Jeffersoniad
- Townhall
- VEA Daily Reports
- VivianPaige
- WDGolden.com
- You, Me and the Lamp Post
So what? Who cares what they advocate? Last I checked, we still had freedom of speech. How do you propose making it unlawful for groups to demand privilege and special laws without squashing their free-speech rights?
On the flip side, how do you “encourage” people to join “neutral” groups? What on earth is the point of associating with a “neutral” group, anyway? What could you possibly have to talk about that would be of interest in such a group? No debates, no differences, just everyone agreeing for the common good.
I would think you would need to serve a lot of alcohol to make THOSE meetings worth anything.
Yes you can associate as “individuals”. You do that by respecting “individual” free speech. You don’t have to be a herd to influence a vote. Join any political group you want that is not aligned along gender, racial, religious, ethnic group political advocacy lines of influence. You simply have to vote and communicate without any inclination that you support a racial, gender, ethnic or religious “group”. Only what you think about as an “individual” and what laws should apply to you only as an “individual” Laws are not applied to “groups” they are applied to all individuals equally. (at least any legal ones).
Michael, I am curious why some of the lengthy comments you posted earlier on this thread are identical to comments on the other blog, down to the rampant typos. Why the elaborate cutting and pasting? You even go as far often as to paste the time marker from bvbl when you copy your remarks from there to here.
Do you feel the two venues are identical so why even bother changing anything? Is this some kind of compulsion?
You don’t squash any individuals free speech. What you squash is their hateful rhetoric that demands only political advocacy action on their religious, gender, racial, or ethnic group special priviliges concepts, and laws made just for them.
No Leila, I see both groups operating with these same political flaws and socially destructive concepts. I feel a need to speak out to stop it’s incipient and subtle but destructive social force.
Alanna,
“What about Milwaukee Brew? They can’t move out of the country can they?”
I imagine so, we are all doomed!!!!!!!!
I mean it this time when I post this: 🙂 ( you know I am kidding)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZlDZPYzfm4
posted by Red Dawn
Now you get it emma, image everyone agreeing for the common good, for everyone, not just their gender, religious, racial or ethnic group…
Lots of things to ponder this evening ( what is new)
off to bed, but to everyone
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayF1T_CdGro
posted by Red Dawn
Ah but what about the incipient and not-so-subtle scourge of constant repetition iced with grammatical and other errors?
Mercy.
But on a serious note, there has never been a time in this country that there were not different interests along gender, racial, ethnic, religious, class, and other lines. And if there had never been political mobilization, at times, along such lines then we would still have a system ala the Founders when only white men of property could vote.
Sorry Red Dawn, so many questions testing for flaws in the argument. A social engineer by my definition is a political faction or group of people who demand that society be politically changed tby law to reflect only their special interest gender, religious, racial or ethnic groups political agenda. They also advocate for the destruction of a societies “individual” freedoms and want it replaced with group political advocacy. They “engineer” the politicians votes and laws by advocacy “groups” not individual voices, in order to gain some advantage in social, ethnic, financial or cultural ideology position by believing only in group rights, that can be manipulated with “engineering social change” by group advocacy manipulation. These people ignore “individual” rights and demand only group rights and group “socialist” concepts, a lot like Hitler, Stalin, MAO, and other socialist groups in all militant countries and even in our own country to bring about social change by group militancy and confrontational advocacy or legal assault on the constitution and concepts of “individual rights”. They believe only in their own group privileges and want to force those concepts and laws on every other individual they do not agree with. They are often, but not exclusively the far right and far left of our political infrastructure, most active in political groups and legal advocacy using group tactics and methods that are methodical and un-yielding. Thus the term “engineers”.
These people exist here and on BVBL. I take issue with them.
I’ll come back later and address anything more, its late.
forget grammtical error, its content and concept that counts. I type fast…
Agree Leila, only now its not just “White” people who are doing it. That’s what’s wrong with it.
People of all ethnic, gender, religious and racial groups are doing it. It is destructive when it seeks privilege and special law. You don’t get it do you?
Got to go.
Michael, I think it would be a kindness if you retired your common phrase “you don’t get it do you?” Just because someone doesn’t agree with you doesn’t mean they don’t get what you are saying. Granted, it may be hard to decipher sometimes…
I don’t agree, for example, with your desire to make it “unlawful” for people to mobilize in certain ways politically. You talk about the need to “squash” “hateful rhetoric.” First, your threshold of what is hateful appears to be too low for a bug to limbo. Second, political rhetoric is protected by the First Amendment. What you appear to really want to “squash” is our Constitution.
Michael, 29. May 2008, 23:28
“You don’t squash any individuals free speech. What you squash is their hateful rhetoric that demands only political advocacy action on their religious, gender, racial, or ethnic group special priviliges concepts, and laws made just for them.”
“Squashing” ANY speech (within the “yelling fire in a crowded theater” or slander/libel constraints), including that “hateful rhetoric,” IS abrogating the right of free speech of the individual, regardless of whether it might be political or group advocacy. A group of any kind is merely a coming together of like or similarly-minded INDIVIDUALS, and there does happen to be hateful, close-minded people in this world who have just as much right, not only to their opinion, but to VOICE that opinion as anyone. It is only when that advocacy leads to violence and/or injures others should a free and democratic society have the right to quash it by legal means.
The infamous wall in question, however, is not an issue of free speech. The authors of the WORDS on that wall have the right to express them by any legal means they choose…it is the EXISTENCE of the wall itself which is in question. Free speech in any civilized society with laws cannot be used to justify the breaking of those laws. That wall, under the laws of the City of Manassas, was long ago ordered to be removed along with the rest of that house, and placing words upon it does nothing to change that.
Michael,
I think you are probably a nice person but I have got to give you the TIRESOME award of the day. You have hi-jacked this thread and turned it into something that causes instant sleep because what you are suggesting is impractical and basically against human nature.
People have associated by groups since time began. If you see the League of Women Voters as a threat, then there simply is no hope. I think they seriously want people to vote–hardly the sin of the century. They also want an immigration policy that is fair, where all people are treated equally. Controversial? Not iin my world.
Please someone email me when this topic is over. I cannot stand it.
Emma, I am howling about opting out of our gender when there is a line at the restroom! Absolutely! That one doesn’t need 20Q. arrgghhhhh. Have you tried the people version of 20Q? Is it just pop culture or does it do historical people?
[email protected]
Michael,
It’s taking too much effort to follow your posts. You’re all over the place. And then it’s like you’re talking to someone who posted 10 posts above yours.
Some here have stated that it is only natural to group together based on common interests, or ethnic background. Why is it that this only holds true if you aren’t white? If you’re white, then coming together based on ethnic background is suddenly a racist organization? Numbers are just that, numbers. No one is more or less better off because their numbers are in the minority. Billionaires are in the numbers minority, and it’s fair to say they don’t need special considerations. If whites are in the numbers minority in a school for example are they then treated as a minority with special considerations? No.
And what Michael painfully ignores is the very fact that many of those groups he loathes were started because THEY WERE OPPRESSED because of their gender, religious beliefs and racial/ethnic heritage. THEY were the ones left out of the so-called generic utopia and equality that Michael seems to pine for.
Anyone remember segregation? Why, HOW DARE people of color organize to advocate for rights for themselves of which they were NOT entitled under Jim Crow.
And as for women, HOW DARE those uppity things organize and demand equal rights to that of men – for voting, pay, and bodily autonomy!
Hate groups and destroyers of civilization – ALL OF THEM.
And FYI, Michael – Stalin was no social engineer. He didn’t care who he killed in his purges. There were only TWO kinds of people in Stalin’s mind – those who agreed with him and followed his rule lock-in-step, or those who disagreed. Funny – he viewed all dissenting voices as enemies and had them killed en masse – calling THEM HATE GROUPS and TRAITORS of the state because they dared ask for equality. Seems to me as if you chose a highly inappropriate historical figure to blanket everyone here as being akin to – when it is Stalinist policies for which you seem to advocate with your anti-diversity tirade.
Michael – some advice – quit while you’re behind.
@ Mackie 29. May 2008, 22:51
“Can western civilization die? Yes, but the ideal of individual liberty can be reborn and reborn forever.”
——————————————–
On this we agree, Individual liberty is the right of all humankind, the right to be an indivdual of mind, body and spirit, the right to live free despite your diversity in color, creed and language. As to your allusion to the roads of Rome I agree as well, culteral evolution, like organic evolution, generally preserves the good things and phases out the bad or utterly obsolete.
Michael, I understand somewhat of where you are coming from, but I fear your lexicon does not fit the thoughts you are expressing. Diversity is not a black and white term, there are diffrent levels of diversity that one can have in one’s life. Diversity is the ability to suscribe to more than one ideal, the ability to coexist despite differences, to be open to other schools of thought and ways of life. Supremacy is when you have but one set of rules and standards and you hold those truths to be above all others. Facism is basically what you get when one forces, by arms or guile, their supremacist views upon the populace they govern.
The principals that established United States were born from an Integration of Diversity which is what has allowed us to remain so strong in the world.
Ironically, the founding of Islam was the first social/religious structure that declared that Women were individuals and not property, that they posessed limited unalienable rights, where the rest of the crumbling Roman/Christian empire did not see it thus. Islam then spread and devided into diffrent sects that claimed “Supreamacy” over the other, but one group of Muslims, holding the seeds of liberty in thought managed to cross into spain and build Al-Andalus, a kingdom where Muslim, Jews And Christians thrived in Harmony, despite their diversity. In Al-Andalus, the roots of Algebra (arabic word), modern astronomy, optics and modern medicine were founded. Ideals from many diverse perspectives were traded and merged to form stronger concepts in every feild, from Fashion to Farming. Eventually Dogma and Supreamacy finally shattered the Jewel of Spain leaving it’s fragmants to wander the earth and jump start the rennasiance. The Ideals of Individual Liberty formed in Al-Andalus thus spread into literature throughout the West. The mathmatics and Science theorised in Al-Andalus evolved in the west and produced the industrial revolution. Scholars in France and Scotland had studied amoung many diffrent diverse sources, the latin translations of Arabic text, their conclusions and thoughts were spread to the colonies and when God willed, evolved through revoltution into the government we have today.
Always the supreamicist have longed to control this country and call themselves the “True Americans” though the founding fathers would see them as none but tyrants. Commanding that their way of life should be the “Only” way of life. For 8 years a Dogmatic group has controlled our government and destablized our economy which may soon triger another evolutionary phase. English is currently the “Lingua Franka” but before that “Lingua Franka” or the “French Language” was the only language to do business in and the speakers of it would never have dreamed it would be replaced by English, nor could the latin speakers before that envision that the Frankish language would be the universal, and so on.
Mandarin may very well be the global language of the next few centuries, we don’t know, but what is known is if we deny diversity, if we deny individual liberty, then we deny ourselves a future. The graces forged in America which evolved from a diverse collection of good human thought, will migrate to other spheres of influence, while the superfluous will dissolve, the evil will hibernate and await another empire to destroy through greed and ignorance.
I love my country, I’m rooted deeply in it’s history, it is sad for me to see the light of reason failing everyday around me, but I know that Human progress is built on the wreckage of many a civilization. All i want to do in life is submit to the higher will and allow our values to thrive by migrating from the on comming winter of the western hemisphere. My submission comes through my embrace and promotion of diversity and individual liberty throughout the world. I denounce Dogma, I Denounce Culteral Supreamacy. I am a Human.
SecondAlamo – To answer your questions, it depends on the purpose of the group that organized along common interests. The minority groups you’re referring to are organized around the common interest of rectifying a percieved injustice that affects the group as a whole. Think blacks and civil rights, women and voting rights, etc. You as a like-minded person are free to join the group even though you may not be a member of that minority. For example white people are free to join the NAACP, and men are free to join feminist groups provided that they share the same beliefs (otherwise why join?).
The white groups you refer to are not generally organized a common interest of rectifying a percieved injustice. In fact they are organized around a common interest of maintaining that percieved injustice.
If you want to know what makes a group organized along racial or ethnic background, look at their objectives. If the objective is to secure for themselves the same benefits or privileges available to the majority, then they are probably not a hate group or racist group. But if the objective is to maintain/deny benefits or privileges available only to the majority, then it probably is a hate group or racist group.
Racism/hate is like pornography. Difficult to define, but you know it when you see it.
rod2155 you said:
I’m not so sure about that. I would agree that the principals upon which the US was founded were strong enough and broad enough to absorb a large degree of diversity. That makes us unique and special in time and history.
If this were the case, I think we would have seen sometime, somewhere in the Islamic world, the rise of at least one democratic republic with equal rights for all. It’s nowhere to be found.
The founding of the USA began 800 years ago at runnymede when english barons won a crucial battle that placed the first check on the arbitrary power of the king and forced him to sign the document called the Magna Carta. Later came english common law, habeus corpus, parliamentary government, and finally the United States Constitution. Individual liberty developed in the west and was informed by a christian faith that holds all life as sacred and that allows room for a separation between church and state. Islam allows no such separation between church and state. And there has never existed an Islamic society whereby non muslims have equal rights with muslims.
The wintering and death of the western hemisphere may very well mean the end of a civilization that has far surpassed any other in sheltering and nurturing individual liberty and diversity. Everyone is free to judge for themselves if the west’s amazing ability to nurture individual liberty and diversity makes it superior to other cultures.
Ultimately, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Those who despise the west have every right to do so if they feel they have found a greater truth. So long as they do not seek to impose their ways upon others, they may live their lives according to their rules. The west should not have so little respect for our dearly earned concept of individual liberty that we aspire to live in harmony with the Islamic world. It seems to me that there are staggering incompatibilities between a world that finds grace in freedom and a world that finds grace in submission. The prophet muhammed made the distinction painfully clear when he said that ‘you love life, and we love death’. We should not aspire to live in harmony with the islamic world…but we can live in peace with the islamic world. And peace is good enough.
The Islamic world is going through the transition that the Jews and Christians had to go through in their dark ages. A group of Muslims in Turkey are re-evaluating the Hadeeth or Teachings of the Prophet and have come to the conclusion that most of them are in contradiction to the Quran. I left Christianity after doing research on the documentary hypothesis in college and after a trip to Qatar, a very progressive islamic state much like lost Andalusia in Spain, I converted to Islam. I had struggled ever since with the Dogma untill very recently when I started daveling in the “Forbidden” ideal the the supposed sayings of the Prophet were in severe contradiction to the Quran (the message of God).
I took two years of Arabic, not enough to speak it fluently, but enough to know that in the Acient Semetic language, the words have many definitions and the danger has been people twisting the lexicon to their justify their own plans. I rejected the Hadeeth (of which most of the terrorist’s embrace solely) and focused more on following reason. Where the Quran seems to contradict reason, like in the Bible, I asscribe it to Human Error or direct distrotion. Following anything that’s 100-10,000 as literal truth without cross checking other sources from the time will lead you down the wrong path.
One of my ancestors signed the Magna Carta, I do not belittle it’s importance, but I have studied Adam Smith, who had a profound effect on the founding fathers and I know he was not limited souly to Western Sources. There was an Islamic state in which the Jews and Christians were treated as equal in spain for about 300 years, but it was overrun by supremisism, by the Berber Dogma to be exact. They limited rights and enforced “Shriah” (Islamic Supreamicist Law) upon the whole populace. Many enlightened Muslims mourned the event and wandered the world hence fourth in silence. Ironically in 1492, it’s last city of Granada was handed over to the king of Spain. The whole Muslim and Jewish populace was ordered to convert or leave (later convert or die). Torqmada, who was the imfamous leader of the Spanish Inquisition was origionally an Andalusian Jew, forced to convert to Christianity by the new overlords. The peaceful diversity that once thrived in the beautiful gardens of Andalus was forbidden and replaced with forceful assimulation to a bastardization of the Holy Message of Christ.
Anyway, I lament the ignorance that so many of my brothers and sisters live in today as I’m sure various individuals amoung the Christians did. 600 years ago, Christianity was not as welcoming as it is today, and even today, there are sects and cults who would gladly return to the “Fundmentals” if they but had the power.
Mackie, I’m not sure how much you travel or read into international sources of news, but I can tell you have some good exposure. I have seen signs that there is light at the tunnel the Islam entered in after the Prophets death. People are begining to understand that all this violence within the faith is the product of mis-belief. The Doha debates hosted on BBC have questioned and declaired that Islam has to be changed. 9-11 has not just had an effect on America, but has but cracks in the false facade of Islamic Extreamism. I have read the Quran and I have found no justification for the acts these animals have done in the name of the faith…the hadeeth however. It’s akin to a cult ignoring the Gospel and declairing the book of Revelations and the Letters of Paul as the infallible word of God which must be adheared to on pain of hellfire of which the high priests can be the judge of who burns and who is amoung the elect.
I believe that in my lifetime, I will see the house of Saud fail and all the fundmentalist sects of Islam fight for control of Mecca, only to destroy it. It is then, when we have lost our greatest treasure that we will be forced to find God in ourselves, not in radical Imams, not in Suicide Lies, not in empty ritual and Dogma. People will have to reflect upon that small incessant force that tells your heart to continue beating after the first jolt. If there is no purpose in life, what integral function commands your heart to continue pumping blood? All of this terrorism and infighting are but the birth pangs of modernity. A new (yet ancient) truth is forming it’s self. Perhaps the U.S. would be the place where a New Islam could grow up, giving yet another choice in the diverse worship of God.
An Sha Allah (God Willing)
Hey guys, I’m sorry we hijacked…no..uh…got carried away with this topic and turned it into an enlightenment thread, I promise to settle down, the words have ceased to flow to me so i know I’ve said what needed to be said.
I hope you all had some good dreams after we put you to sleep.
Can you tell they have nothing for me to do on Friday?
“it is the EXISTENCE of the wall itself which is in question.” Agreed. It’s not the speech here that’s the problem. It’s the location of the physical structure. Get the permits, I say, and get on with making the wall a stronger statement than it is right now (i.e. prettier).
Did I miss it where Michael thinks the League of Women Voters is some underground group? LOL. I can’t read Michael either. Sorry, Michael. You go around and around with topics at length and don’t keep them focused. It’s very confusing. You might try posting just a little at a time, not all in a row. I know I can be really bad at posting time after time in response to people who posted bfore me, and it’s not a good habit. People stop reading your stuff.
“People are beginning to understand that all this violence within the faith is the product of mis-belief.”
The Christian/Jewish equivalent to this is the Old Testament, “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.” Most Christians (and I think Jewish, correct me if I am wrong) have finally decided this is either a philosophy that no longer works or one that was not communicated correctly. Every religion has passages like these, including the Quran.
Just found the referernce to the “League of women voters” from Michael.
The League invites men and women. Their focus is voter education. Opinions they hold are made through consensus studies of all their Leagues in every state in every area. That’s how they come up with their stand on any particular issue, including immigration. Really, Michael, it isn’t some plot to take over the free world. It’s a group dedicated to getting people like you to take advantage of your voting rights and stand up for democracy. The League has a long history starting with Susan B. Anthony and the Suffragists who were, incindentally, not just women.
You are ALWAYS invited to attend a meeting if you want to learn more about it. Or visit their website.
“What on earth is the point of associating with a “neutral” group, anyway?”
There IS an advantage of associating with a party-neutral group because party politics aren’t permitted to distract from the real issues being addressed. It’s non-partisan for me all the way!
–sigh– I’m doing what I told Michael maybe he should do but it’s so hard when you are trying to pick up from previous commentary because you’ve logged in later. I hope responding to specific quotes from other posters helps you all understand the context, however.
Marie, 29. May 2008, 21:22
“Hey, Anon-100 Where did you get the 411? Work for the City , a Councilman or just a very, very involved resident????”
No, actually I read BVBL and this site once in awhile, so I cut and pasted the timeline frome BVBL and posted it here.
“It makes me sick…real integration is a thing of the past now.”
REAL integration means we can maintain our individuality as we live peacefully beside one another. The “melting pot” is a myth. We don’t really all “melt” into one piece of generic moosh. We aren’t the Borg. See, GL likes all people to think the same and be the same, which is why he has a fit when someone doesn’t do what he says. He can’t deal with anyone that’s different or expresses his/her individuality including gender, ethnnicity, religion, etc. Sorry, but I’m not giving up my stuffed grape leaves, Greg, or anyone else! If you don’t want to eat them, fine, but don’t tell me how I should or should not express my individuality. Sheesh. (All of sudden, I have a craving for grape leaves….)
rod2155,
If I understand you correctly, I wish you safety on such a dangerous journey…and may you find the truth that you seek.
kgotthardt said:
There is an important difference here. The bible is understood to be the interpreted word of God. It is a human attempt to understand God. This is why it says the Gospel according to so and so. The Quran, on the other hand, is the literal word of God. It is the perfect copy of the perfect book, the umm-al-kitab, that is in heaven and was written by God. It was recited by the angel Gabriel, verse by verse, to the prophet mohammed. You cannot alter it nor discard pieces you disagree with. You must accept it as a whole. In order to change it, there would need to be a new revelation.
The ahadeeth on the other hand is a different matter. But such a reformation as rod2155 is talking about would probably be as bloody as the christian reformation. And it might take just as long. It’s just not here yet. And I fear that the movement of reformation in the islamic world may be moving more in the conservative direction as opposed to the liberal direction. Part of the reason for this is the abuse the west has been heaping on the islamic world for the past 40 years. We can’t go back and change that but we can learn from it, stop the abuse, and see what we can do to repair the damage.
kgotthardt:
You eat grape leaves?
kgotthardt, 30. May 2008, 15:46
“What on earth is the point of associating with a “neutral” group, anyway?”
kgotthardt, I was responding to Michael’s post where he says:
He’s not referring to party neutral, here. I found his idea here to be nightmarishly “1984-ish”
I think the implication here is that people should not join churches, for example (probably because of their social advocacy), or maybe even knitting clubs (mostly women). Once you’ve cleansed the country of all gender, racial, religious or ethnic-specific organizations, I’m not sure what is left to join that would have much meaning to many people.
Michael, your verbosity costs you in terms of clarity.
Moon-howler, what the heck were you doing up at 3:23 am?
I tried 20Q people–it could not guess John Adams, but got Ronald Reagan, so yes, it does do historical people.
I meant it got Abe Lincoln, but I beat it on Ronald Reagan.
kgotthardt, 30. May 2008, 15:22
“it is the EXISTENCE of the wall itself which is in question.” Agreed. It’s not the speech here that’s the problem. It’s the location of the physical structure. Get the permits, I say, and get on with making the wall a stronger statement than it is right now (i.e. prettier).
Actually, that train has left the station. If that wall had been meant as a political statement, they should have attempted to acquire whatever permits or variances might have been necessary, if they were even possible, in a Historic District when they first started ignoring the demands of the city government. There comes a point in time when lack of compliance is purely and simply disobedience of the law and, as such, actionable…and that time is overdue. The owners of that property are not seeking equal rights under the law…they have ASSUMED AND TAKEN special privileges in defiance of the law, to which they have no more right than any other citizen.
By the way, Kgotthardt…I happen to REALLY enjoy stuffed grape leaves myself! 🙂
“The bible is understood to be the interpreted word of God. It is a human attempt to understand God. This is why it says the Gospel according to so and so. The Quran, on the other hand, is the literal word of God.”
Actually, Mackie, there are many sects of Christianity that declare the Bible IS the ACTUAL word of God and if you don’t believe that, you are damned. I two different periods of my life, I attended Bible studies put on by two different groups that taught that same interpretation. While I respect people’s right to believe what they want and really have no problem with them talking about it, I don’t enjoy being told I’m going to be “damned” so I knew these were not the right places for me. I just can’t get into that.
“kgotthardt:
You eat grape leaves?”
Yes, whenever I can if I can find them. And apparently, so does AWCheney! : )
They are stuffed grape leaves. My great aunt on the Lebanese side of my family used to make them all the time. The ones I’ve had around here have been more full of vinegar than I am used to, but they are still very good.
Stuffed grape leaves at the next party, okay?? Any takers?
“There comes a point in time when lack of compliance is purely and simply disobedience of the law”
Yes, and I think Mr. F. is going for “civil disobedience” here which is a time-honored tradition in this country. I don’t know that it’s productive, but it’s time honored.
“He’s not referring to party neutral, here. I found his idea here to be nightmarishly “1984-ish”
No, I understand what you are saying. It’s never clear what MICHAEL is saying however! : )
This is not a case of “civil disobedience,” kgotthardt…the owner was already breaking the law BEFORE the sign went up. What you are calling civil disobedience is an attempt to avoid the ultimate consequences by turning it into a political act AFTER breaking the law, like an afterthought.
I don’t know about grape leaves, but my wife who is Chinese takes the leaves off pumpkin plants (which she grows in the backyard when they are in season) and cooks them and eats them! I tried it but I couldn’t stand the taste, then again I’m not a pumpkin fan in general. I guess lots of cultures find leaves off of different fruit or vegetable plants to be something they like.
Anon, I learned to enjoy stuffed grape leaves at the celebrations of a Greek family I first got to know in my teenage years. They’re really quite good as cold appetizers. And kgotthardt, I believe that you may have been experiencing the Greek variety of stuffed grape leaves in this area…they are rather vinegary, which I happen to like. I don’t believe that I have ever sampled the Middle Eastern version, but I’m ALWAYS up for new culinary experiences!
Anon, that sounds yummy!! (I’m a big fan of leafy things.)
AW, if you ask me, Mr. F. has been rebelling all along. I don’t think it was an afterthought at all. I think he’s just been going with it. But we are all just guessing. Can’t read anyone’s mind, right?
k, if you ask me, he was being a businessman taking advantage of an opportunity offered by a political issue to avoid massive fines and a possible investigation into the illegal activities which led to the house burning down in the first place, which would have made it impossible to collect the insurance.
What are the leaves stuffed with?
Sniff sniff sniff…..Grape leaves and arson. This sounds like a novel in the making.
Emma, I would like to know also. Thanks for the info on 20Q people. I haven’t played once today. What do you know about the limited edition?
I too stayed away from 20Q for the first day in almost a week.