The article in the Washington post, which focused on allocating money for services to help LEGAL immigrants become citizens, was the target of many bloggers to spew hatred. It was interesting to me, having read so many previous self righteous comments from the “anti illegal immigrant side”, that there would be this outpouring of disgust for a program that would promote citizenship to LEGAL residents. Isn’t that what we all want, integration? The reality is that this issue DOES revolve around an anti Hispanic theme, fear of being “overtaken” by a different culture, fear of losing our “Americanism”. But what is America? As a culture, have we not evolved from so many different immigrant experiences? I believe being American is not about a specific culture, but about an ideal. An ideal of freedom, of individualism. A belief that we can all achieve our dreams if we are willing to work hard. We are the land of opportunity. We are Americans, all connected, by a common goal……freedom.

“This is about getting people who have become [legal] permanent residents to become U.S. citizens . . . so they can become full participants in this society,” said J. Walter Tejada (D), chairman of the Arlington County Board, at a news conference to announce the proposal.

The three-year plan, which was primarily developed by the advocacy groups CASA deMaryland and Tenants and Workers United of Virginia, is modeled on similar initiatives in California and Illinois. It would use a combination of federal, state, county and private sources to fund as many as 25 “Naturalization Support Centers.” The centers would provide a range of services, including educational outreach, test preparation, legal counseling, referrals to English courses and assistance with filling out applications.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/28/AR2008052802973.html

121 Thoughts to “LEGAL Immigrants are now target of hate!”

  1. Emma

    I am all for assimilation of folks who are here legally. The Catholic Church in particular has been a staunch advocate for assisting all immigrants–I know the Benedictine Sisters here are heavily involved in teaching English to Spanish-speaking folks. My family gives a good deal of money to the Church, and I have no problem with that sort of outreach. But I do not see how it should be put on the backs of taxpayers to pay for such an “assimilation” program. I don’t trust it, I don’t trust Tejada at all, and I don’t think our tax dollars are well spent in this way. This should be the job of local outreach organizations–churches and the like–and I willingly donate for such programs already.

    “Federal money” doesn’ t just fall from the sky. It won’t come from big business, it won’t come from the immigrants themselves, it will fall squarely on the backs–as usual–of the middle class. Gas is over $4 a gallon, food prices are skyrocketing, we’re stuck in an endless war overseas. Surely this cannot take priority when many native-born American citizens can barely make it on food stamps these days.

  2. Leila

    LuckyDuck, I was not minimizing the grief caused by identity theft or use of fraudulent documents. I was just pointing out it’s hardly a practice limited to illegal immigrants and that the SSNs are created in different ways. In any case, from what I understand, the major practitioners of identity theft in the US are not illegal immigrants seeking work. They are professional criminals as in organized crime looking to steal your money.

    If you think that any use of fraudulent documents should preclude an illegal immigrant from a work visa then we are back to square one with millions of people here who will either have to be regularized in some way or deported. Mass deportation isn’t going to happen. ICE can’t even handle the people from the limited number of busts they do now. I also doubt that there will be a massive crackdown with extreme penalties for all employers in all sectors. So you remain with the status quo.

  3. Lucky Duck

    I’ll agree with you Leila, that professional criminals are probably the most users of identity theft…and what do we do with them when caught? We punish them, we put them in jail. We do not just wipe the slate clean and give them a fresh start which it appears the way you state we must go with illegal aliens – and we disagree greatly on that. Today, if an illegal alien is caught using ID Fraud, they are arrested and put in jail. Why should that just be dropped if any legislation is passed? What other type of crime should we forgive?

    I don’t believe that the vast majority of illegals use ID theft, some do, but from what I have observed, many work off the books. So those who commit ID fraud need to pay the price that a common criminal pays today, tomorrow or next week if caught. In addition, those individuals who engage in such unlawful activity should be excluded from any amnest or pathway proposed. IMHO.

  4. Marie

    Excerpt from Management Issues “Wetback Wealth” by Max McKeown

    “Or, as the legislative director for the Texas Farm Bureau put it: “either you obey the law and you watch your crop rot in the fields or you attempt to try to get the crop out and run the risk of being hit by the federal government.”

    So instead of celebrating our luck in attracting those with a desire to work, a belief in the economic dream and a willingness to take risks that reinvigorates our entrepreneurial core, we have allowed fear of the unknown, petty narrow-mindedness and the instincts of the playground bully to create an irrational distrust – even hatred – of those who create our wealth.

    The latter-day minute-men on the Arizona/Mexican border are the descendants of immigrants in an immigrant democracy who – if they could stop hunting hard workers like rabbits or jackals long enough to think about it – ought to be thanking each new arrival for showing the initiative to help make America a better place.

    In fact, we should all be a little more grateful to each of the millions of people who do the work that supports our lives of luxury. Remember – innovation is difference – and people create wealth.”

  5. Leila

    LuckyDuck, I don’t think most illegal immigrants who are caught with illegal documents serve time in jail in the sense you are suggesting. I would guess most charged with simple possession (not manufacture or distribution) are held and then deported. But perhaps you know better. I guess I do draw a distinction between identity theft by organized crime in order to rob someone’s bank account, credit cards etc. and illegal immigrants’ use of fake SSNs to work. It’s the same way I would make a distinction also with the countless millions of American teenagers who have used fake IDs to drink and who also, at times, are hurting innocents in how they obtain their fake IDs. If the crime is the crime is the crime, regardless of impact and motivation, then I assume you advocate throwing all those teens in prison as well. Sorry Jenna B. Well, that should be easy, such teens are in the same bars week after week. I doubt most illegal immigrants work off the books by the way. The contributions to SSN are just too high and the companies busted for illegal workers are often some of the best known in their areas.

    I understand you think all of the illegal immigrants who have acted unlawfully in this way should be excluded from any lenient pathway. So how many does that leave? Very very few. And what do you propose for the, say, 80-90% who have used or created some kind of fraudulent document in some way? You haven’t answered it.

  6. Leila

    Thinking more about how upset I would indeed be if my SSN were used by someone else, I found this really disturbing story. It seems the government is deliberately not notifying people.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6814673/

    One comment from the story: “That information is considered to be tax return information, and it’s governed under the Internal Revenue code,” said Social Security’s Mark Lassiter. “There are strict limitations on disclosure. Can someone see if anyone else has reported earnings under their Social Security number? The answer would be no.””

    The comments on how this information is also not revealed in credit reports are especially alarming. The article is well worth reading to the shocker at the end. Sigh.

  7. SecondAlamo

    And with the illegals come gangs. Check out the morning news. Why the shooter could be working in your home today!

  8. Marie

    Second Alamo,
    THERE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN GANGS!!! It is nothing new. When I was in high school in the 60’s there were gangs. Some of them were Hells Angels, Crypts, Bloods, Greasers, KKK, American Nazi Party and so on. Do I like it? NO. Would I like to see them arrested for criminal activity? YES.

    There you go again with your scare tactics.

  9. Marie

    Mr. Second Alamo,
    I am saddened about the loss of life and the death of Omar Florencio-Vasquez, who was only 24. What a tradgedy for him and his family. I hope whomever did this and his sidekicks are caught.

    It also saddens me for people like you who insinuate that “illegals” are in gangs. That is just not the truth. Yes, there are some in gangs but for the most part they are not. Like I said earlier there have always been gangs and you try to make points by trying to instil irrational fear.

  10. LuckyDuck

    Leila, there is a difference in making up a birthdate on an ID to get into a bar as opposed to adopting someone else’s identity for work or credit to include a mortgage and loans. Don’t you agree with that? Changing the birthdate on your ID to get into a bar doesn’t change someone else’s credit score. Under Virginia Law, using that type of ID is not fraud, the person is charged with other criminal violations – misdemeanors, if caught.

    Obtaining a paycheck, bank account, mortgage, car loan and other such financial gains using someone else’s identity is Fraud under Virginia law. There is the difference in the two examples you try to compare – there is no financial gain in the first.

    Surely you admit there is a significant difference in the two actions you have attempted to compare.

    I don’t know the percentage of Illegal aliens using someone else’s ID and 90% seems high. But if legislation comes from the federal government in the next President’s term (and I hope and believe it will do so) then those who apply and have used identity fraud and theft should not be part of the plan and be denied permanent residency. I hope this answers your question.

  11. Dignidad

    Leila, I don’t think using a fake SSN to gain employment is any less materialistic for anyone than a person who can’t wait a couple of years to indulge in the Jello shot promo down the street. Many illegals say they come here for a better life, why don’t they just wait the 20 years they need to like anyone who who makes plans and works towards them? The value in life is not what we have, it’s how we live it.

  12. SecondAlamo

    Marie,

    Suit yourself if you prefer that the 10 Hispanic males were all legal residents, then that just makes it even more disgusting! Oh, and because there has always been gangs I guess adding a few more isn’t a problem. That is one hell of a twisted logic!

  13. anon

    LuckyDuck – I think your feelings regarding amnesty folks not getting ahead of people already in line are a lot like most of my wife’s friends who also came here legally. At least in my wife’s case, every friend of hers already here, or those in China that she knows that are in the process of coming here, very much resent this idea of amnesty as far as the possibility of people being granted amnesty “cutting the line in front of them” and more possibly, making it even harder for them to come here! In fact, there is a theory that granting amnesty will cause immigration to make it harder for other legal immigrants to come here, as the quotas will drop even further than what they are currently! So how is that fair at all to those people?

    I also agree with your comments regarding id theft. I hope none of us here ever have to experience someone stealing our social security number and credit. For my job I require a Dept. of Defense security clearance. It means I have to have a good credit rating. There have been stories about people in my profession LOSING their security clearances, AND their jobs, because someone stole their social security number, and ended up ruining their credit rating! The Dept. of Defense can be very picky about who it gives security clearances to, and it is hard case to fight even if your credit is stolen and ruined.

    So, what I’m getting at, is I agree with you – any immigrants who engaged in credit theft/social security theft, should NOT be granted amnesty. It is plain and simple fraud, and it also ruins people’s lives. What if it caused someone who was buying a new house not to be able to get that house? There are countless ramifications of credit/id theft, and for those who make it sound like it is the same as forging an id to get into a bar for underage drinking, they are sadly missing the point. I don’t care that they did it to get a job that they could not get otherwise. It is another example of at times an attitude of thinking only about themselves, and not thinking about other people’s lives they are ruining. So what I’m saying is, I definitely agree with the idea that anyone who engaged in id theft/credit theft should not be granted amnesty. Really, they ought to be thrown in jail in my opinion! If it sounds harsh, they should have thought about that before they commited the crime! Somehow, for them to steal someone’s social security number and/or credit, and for there to be no consequences, just doesn’t strike me as very fair. If I did that, I’d expect to be punished severely, probably including jail time.

  14. Moon-howler

    Dignidad,

    I really hope your last post is sarcasm. A 20 years wait makes all the difference in what you can and cannot do work-wise. What you can easily do at 20 becomes much more difficult at 40, especially if your work depends a great deal on physical labor.

    I am not advocating that people come here illegally, but there are a few realities that need to be dealt with.

  15. anon

    Emma – Actually the Benedictine Sisters in Manassas (BEACON) offer a wide range of services including free ESOL classes (not just for Hispanic immigrants – there are quite a few Asians in the classes too), as well as a program for somone wanting to become a nurse practitioner – a free English class that teaches medical terminology. I know, because my wife was a senior nurse in China, but it is hard for her to get accredited here in the USA (for one thing she has to take the nursing cetification exam which is very difficult when your English is not so good). She is getting ready to start with BEACON their medical terminology class, and then she would enroll in a 1 year program at a local college to get her nurse practitioner license. Hopefully in the long run she could again become a registered nurse although I believe that to be a good 5 years off for her at least at this point – although experience as a nurse practitioner could accelerate her knowledge of English medical terminology so she could pass the registed nursing license exam (NCLEX).

    Anyway, I definitely agree – assimilation programs should be left to organizations such as BEACON, rather than being paid for by the taxpayers. I’m sure there are many other programs such as BEACON – but they seem to be a good one in the Manassas area.

  16. Moon-howler

    How about a 20-25 year prison sentence for identity theft? I try to shred every paper that has my husband’s or my name on it but even then, I still feel we are very exposed.

    I guess I don’t care about the ethnicity of some scum bag who steals identity, SS number, credit cards or other personal information. Jail time works regardless. I would also expect to be notified.

  17. anon

    Moon-howler – I definitely am very diligent about shredding too. I hear too many cases of id theft, it is very scary. In fact, I check my credit report monthly to insure there’s nothing strange on it, given that my security clearance (and therefore my job) depends on having a nearly spotless credit rating. Although unfortunately, by the time it were to show up on my credit record (any id theft) it would be at the point that much time and effort would need to be expended to get that removed, and at the very least my security clearance would probably be suspended until it was conclusively proved that the bad stuff on my record was id theft related. So I’m very very paranoid about credit theft actually, and take fairly extreme measures to safeguard my credit rating.

    As far as notification, it isn’t only the fault of the government (although they are plenty to blame). The credit reporting agencies are just as much to blame, and they also make it EXTREMELY difficult to erase negative reports on your credit record, which are the result of credit theft. This is due to the greediness of our bank/credit card industry. In fact, it is the same greediness as that which caused the subprime loan industry mess. So I blame the banks/credit reporting agencies just as much as I blame the government – as no credit reporting agency seems to care about people who’s credit has been stolen. I’ve read too many cases where people who’ve had that happen spend YEARS getting their credit history repaired. Why should it be so hard? Because the banks/credit reporting agencies make it hard – because they are greedy and just don’t care. I know a year ago or so there was a good article in the Wash. Post about a Manassas area woman who went to Prince William Hospital, and an employee at the hospital (actually a contractor employee there) stole her credit and ruined her credit rating. She only found out about it a year later when her credit was ruined. Since then she and her husband have been struggling to repair their credit but are getting zero assistance from the banks/credit reporting agencies. Of course they are suing Prince William Hospital, but they are washing their hands of it since they claim it was a contract employee, and it is the contracting agencies fault. Anyway, I’m just using this to illustrate how hard it is to get one’s credit cleaned up after this happens, and how it isn’t all the government’s fault. I blame the greedy banks more than anything else. In fact, I blame them for the subprime mortgage mess and what they’ve done to the economy/housing market.

    Anyway, my other point is, there are serious consequences to id theft/fraud. And I don’t care who does it – I agree – they need to be tossed in jail for a very long time (whether they are a US Citizen, a legal immigrant permanent resident, or an illegal immigrant). And if they happen to be an illegal immigrant hoping for amnesty – TOO BAD – you just lost your chance! In my opinion they don’t deserve it – I don’t care whether they did it because they needed a job to feed their family. I’m sure they weren’t at all thinking about the hardship it caused to the person who’s social security number they stole.

    And I really hope the number of 90% quoted somewhere above (90% of illegal immigrants use fraudulent social security numbers) isn’t true. But if it is, then again, I say too bad. I have a big feeling that anyone who’s credit has been stolen, would not have any sympathy at all for whoever it was that stole their credit. In the case of an illegal immigrant, I’m sure they would not be in favor of that person getting ANY form of amnesty or “path to citizenship”. Citizenship is something that needs to be earned, and anyone breaking the law by stealing something from someone else (in this case their social security number and their credit), doesn’t have the right to earn citizenship, if you ask me.

  18. Anonimo

    http://www.pwcgov.org/documents/bocs/agendas/currentagenda.pdf

    – Presentation – Illegal Immigration Enforcement Update – Charlie Deane – Police Department

    June 3rd 2008

  19. Elena

    Elvis,
    How exactly is Walter Tejada “the most bigoted” guy? Please site specific examples if you would.

  20. Elena

    Anon,
    The reality is that there is NO LINE. That is a farce. Should people who are given preferential treatment for specific skills be treated less worthy if there is a need for them is this country ? Right now, we are in a nursing crisis, if we allow “special expediated legalization” are they also cutting in line? I would imagine, as soon as your wife can pass the nursing exam, she will be a welcome addition to our nursing shortage!

    http://www.workingimmigrants.com/2006/04/post_3.html

  21. Not Me, Bubba

    I’m not entirely against this, nor am I really jazzed in favor of it…

    Good idea? Seems like one.

    However, I wonder where this money could be better spent on actual AMERICANS who are in more need of assistance.

    I’m not convinced either way…

  22. Moon-howler

    The credit bureaus have way too much power. Perhaps I have said that wrong. The information they keep gives others way too much power. What interest rate you pay when financing a new car depends on that credit report. Whether you get a job, a loan, car insurance, a REAL mortgage, etc. are all linked to what’s in your credit report.

    I would like to see legislation that limits the power of credit reports and forces the bureaus to clean things up without having to give up your first born. Trying to get information corrected is almost impossible. Often you just give up.

  23. Moon-howler

    Elena, Elvis,

    I, too, am curious why Walter Tejada is being painted as “the most bigoted” guy. He was elected chairman of the Arlington County Board, so he must appeal to many people from Arlington County. Arlington has a long history of diversity and people are pretty accepting of others. I am curious why he would be considered bigoted since most people I know in Arlington wouldn’t elect a bigot to represent them.

    Now Prince William County….? Nah….we just won’t go there. Not today.

  24. Alanna

    Wow. You folks have been busy this weekend. I took some time to spend with the kids and now I’m way behind in reading this thread!

  25. anon

    Elena, I’m sorry I just don’t agree. At least from China, there is a HUGE HUGE backlog just in the fiancee/marriage VISA area, not to mention other people related to people already here, etc. etc. It is a line, and those who come here illegally are indeed jumping the line. Then they want to be granted amnesty, ahead of those waiting. And I am quite sure, if amnesty goes into affect, the current system will slow down moreso, and those waiting in line will wait even longer as a result. I don’t see any overhaul of USCIS being proposed, and their current system will grind to a hault if the predicted 12 million applications get into that system on top of the current load. Who’s going to foot the bill for the overhaul? The taxpayers obviously. Anyway, again I think it is incredibly unfair to those in line (and you can say there isn’t a line all you want, but my wife waited in line so I know there is) for anyone granted amnesty to be able to obtain residency and citizenship faster than them.

    As far as my wife becoming a nurse, despite the fact she has a graduate degree in nursing from China, and was a senior nurse at the hospital there, she has a very long/tough road to climb to be able to do that here. While there is a nursing shortage, no one makes it easy for her to gain certfication here, that’s for sure. You may argue that’s the fault of the nursing industry, and I would agree with you, but the fact is unless she is fluent in English, can easily understand complicated medical terminology that the average layman couldn’t, and can easily get translated records from the schools she attended and her hospital, it is a very tough road to climb. Forget her hospital, they hate hate hate it when the nurses leave there and emigrate to the USA. We’ll never get anything from her hospital, that’s for sure. When she turned in her resignation, they told her she was making a huge mistake going to the USA, and she should rethink it completely. It was clear she’d never get any employment records out of them. Anyway, that is getting off-topic, and not really related to the discussion of amnesty. But I can tell you my wife and her friends (both here in the USA and still in China “in line” waiting to come here) are all very against this notion of amnesty. I would wager there are a lot of other immigrants to the USA who feel the same way. I’m not saying all, but I am saying a sizeable percentage. Maybe of course not legal immigrants from Central/South America, who know or are related to illegal immigrants, obviously.

  26. anon

    Moon-howler – you hit the nail on the head – the credit bureaus have way too much power. On top of that they can care less when someone’s credit is messed up through no fault of their own. You are right, from what I’ve heard trying to get your credit cleaned up when the report is erroneous is an almost infinitely impossible task. I’ve read too many horror stories about that. There definitely needs to be legislation limiting their power, but that will never happen. They and the banks have too much power in their lobby with Congress. That power is what led to the whole subprime mortgage fiasco, and is the reason for the most of the foreclosures in Prince William County (not the resolution as some people seem to want to try and get everyone to believe).

    Anyway, the fact is, it is extremely difficult (if not impossible) to repair your credit after it is stolen. I agree the system is broke, but good luck getting congress to do anything about it with the powerful banking lobby’s influence. So, again I say, anyone who steals another person’s credit/id/social security number should definitely be denied amnesty, and really thrown in jail for a good long time to boot. I don’t care if they had “good motives” for doing so – such as gaining employment or buying a house. If we say it is OK for people to steal from others (which is what this is – plain and simple theft) then I don’t know where we are headed as a society. I just cringe when I hear some people minimizing this whole identify theft thing – it is a very serious issue and has destroyed a lot of people’s lives. Those doing the stealing seem to not care at all about it – I guess the logic is “every man for himself”!

  27. anon

    Elena – in regards to your article about the nurses in the UK recruited from other countries: A good friend of my wife’s from China was recruited to work as a nurse in the UK. She went over there and has been there for several years but is extremely unhappy. They make her work far longer hours than nurses who are UK citizens, and pay her extremely low wages. She often works 16 hour days 6 days a week and again, her pay is lousy. So while this article paints a somewhat rosy picture, it is no wonder at the end of it is the sentence “Ironically, for every two nurses recruited from overseas to work in the United Kingdom, one nurse certified in the United Kingdom emigrates. ” My wife’s friend would like to get out of the UK, but she has not much money because of the low wages she is paid, and can’t afford to do so. For her, the grass definitely was rosier on the other side. I would say the UK has a lot of reform to do in their nursing industry and recruitment of foreign nurses.

    At least here in the USA, while they make it hard for foreign nurses to get certified, they at least get paid equal to their American counterparts, and aren’t forced to work inhumane hours like that.

  28. LuckyDuck

    I agree with anon…there should be no “good motives” for stealing someone else’s ID. Those individuals who have committed such acts should not be given a place in any legislation to a pathway to citizenship.

    I know of a person who had her identity stolen and she received a tax bill in 2007 for wages she supposedly earned in Chicago in 2006 while working for a construction firm. She has never been to Chicago in her life. She hired a company to research the problem and found out that her ID had been stolen by a person who used it to obtain a job with the construction company. This year (2008) she finally got the IRS to agree that she was not working in two different States on the same days. Now, I don’t know for sure if the other person was in fact an illegal immigrant, but who else would need to steal a SSN for a job?
    How can that suspect’s “good motives” for wanting to work ever justify the worry, the frustration and the financial costs this victim went through? The person who committed the ID Fraud and anyone else who did should not be eligible for Citizenship under any legislation.

    By the way Leila, you never answered back to me about what other crimes or criminal acts we should waive or wipe clean as long as we are allowing those who have committed ID Fraud or theft off the hook under your logic.

  29. Elena

    Anon,
    Thanks for your comments regarding the nursing industry. Sounds like the UK is bordering on something akin to indentured servitude!

  30. Leila

    LuckyDuck, I wasn’t avoiding any question. I haven’t had any opportunity today and still don’t. I only *just* managed to eat something today and that was after getting to work at 6:30 am to scramble on some things.
    I’m just signing on to let you know I intend to reply. I would say you appear to be deliberately misreading me, but I will address it later. Also you didn’t actually answer my question yet, which was what to do with the majority of illegal immigrants (a number in the millions) who by your criteria would not be eligible for any suggested program because they used fraudulent documents. It takes us back to square one. More tonight, I hope.

  31. anon

    Elena, yes in the UK it seems they are creating a subclass of nurses and it is quite like you say – indentured servitude. My wife’s friend had it better as a nurse in China – the wages may be low there, but the hours are pretty much the same as what nurses here in the states work. The UK offered this person higher wages (which she is indeed getting) but they never mentioned the part about 16 hour days, 6 days a week at times! It is easy to offer higher wages than what China offers – my wife was a senior nurse there and only getting about $5000/year – which indeed is a pretty good salary in China. Still, you don’t live too well on $5000/year – even in China. So the UK pays more, but works their foreign nurses like slaves in return! Not a very good deal at all. I guess it is no wonder that half of their foreign nurses choose to leave!

  32. anon

    Leila – here’s an idea of what to do with all those people who don’t qualify for amnesty due to identity/credit theft: If they want to make complete restitution to the person who they stole it from – for all their costs of rebuilding their credit and any costs incurred due to loss of job opportunities – I say fine. Of course, they either won’t be able to do that financially, or else would probably be unwilling to do that, since they broke the law in the first place.

    And I don’t buy the argument that “it makes too many people to deal with” – that is a large number of illegal immigrants have done this. That’s no excuse to give them a free pass. So if a large number of people shoplift and we can’t prosecute them all and send them to jail – should we let them off? That seems to me to be what is being said. I’m sorry, I can never see a way to allow people who have stolen someone’s identity or social security number to get amnesty. It is rewarding law breaking, and that’s wrong. Lucky Duck’s story of that woman in Chicago is a good example of what happens when someone steals a social security number. I’m sure it wasn’t much fun to fight the IRS on that tax bill, and probably cost that woman a lot of money (and at least a lot of time). How is that fair, and why should the person who did this to her – assuming they are an illegal immigrant (and as LuckyDuck points out – why would a legal immigrant need to do this?) be rewarded with amnesty? I just don’t see how it makes any sense, and again I don’t buy the argument “there are too many immigrants having to steal people’s identity because they have no documentation”.

  33. Kenneth Reynolds

    Leila, 1. June 2008, 19:01

    maribel, am I missing something? Is Kenneth Reynolds really Gregg Reynolds, or was that a Freudian slip or hallucination from consuming some poison yourself? Hard to tell. I note you profess a deep admiration for Greg Letiecq, yet you spell his name wrong three times. Name the substance, I’m curious.

    Hi Leila, NOPE Im not related to GREGG. I have met him and read his articles in the paper……and he is a real statesman!! And I doubt that he hates anyone……is there anything wrong with providing other views, as Gregg and I do, or is that NOT allowed!!! Why, I even got kicked off their 3-gradish blog….

  34. Kenneth Reynolds

    maribel, 1. June 2008, 18:48

    Gregg Reynolds is at it again. His hate and disdain for Greg Letique is both pathetic and shameful as it reflects on his sick and convoluted state of mind. Its true, but if G.L. were not in the picture, Reynolds would not have a life. Greg Letique is an honest and honorable man and has done a great service for PW county despite the likes of Reynolds and people like him. Mr. Letique does not deserve the constant hateful barage that is slung at him by Reynolds. Mr. Reynolds must be a miserable person who is obsessed and consumed with the poison of hate. Get over your hate, Mr. Reynolds, and get a life.

    Kenneth Reynolds said: Maribel, Maribel, Maribel, how could you say such mean things about me and Gregg. We’re both providing our views as to what we would want our community to be…and that IS a comunity, not a war zone like it is in Woodbridge and similar places. And I put the blame for this in Corey and Gospel Greg’s lap. And me, why, i’m a wonderful guy, despite my humilty admred and liked by all who know me!!!! I sure dont HATE Gospel Greg and Lt. Corey. I am so disappointed that they use our community to further their goals. We have NEVER had a chairman like Corey……aiming for higher office on the backs of undocumented residentss…..and he cant even enforce the damn laws that belong to him….to fix things……no….he has to try to enforce federal laws….and has screwed everything up!! I hope im allowed to say all this Maribel, without fear of reprisal….

  35. Do the Right Thing

    Anon,

    What if there are no restitution costs? Many illegal immigrants use a random SS # that could belong to someone, could not, could belong to a dead person. They are not using that persons “identity”…just the number. And SS HAS to tie a number to the matching name or the $$$ go into the “pot” that includes the billions of dollars attributed to illegal immigrants. So if no costs were incurred, it would be okay with you?

    Also, I’m interested in what your wife thinks about Chinese Mail Order brides and the way they obtain legal residency in the US? Does she not consider that “jumping the line?” That is about the only line Chinese women can get in…the hope that some American man will make them an offer. I don’t see why those women should be able to get into a line to get here under such a draconian program. Never meeting some guy but agreeing to marry him in exchange for a legal path to residency?! I don’t think that’s right at all.

  36. anon

    I totally disagree with your comment “That is about the only line Chinese women can get in…the hope that some American man will make them an offer.” That is an insult to the many Chinese women who meet Americans through legitimate means. Sure, there are ones who obtain legal residency under false pretenses, and I dislike them as much as any illegal immigrants, and yes, they are jumping the line. But for you to make the statement that it is the about the only line that Chinese women get in is just plain wrong and really a rather despicable thing to say. Again, I don’t disagree that Chinese women who do this are wrong. However, in my own case, there had to be proof that I had made several lengthy trips to China before my wife could get her Visa, and also lengthy correspondence, daily phone calls, etc. outside those trips. The USA consulate there ended up getting a huge amount of documentation from us (several hundred pages as well as pictures of us together in places all over China, copies of my passport showing lengths of stay in China over a period of several years, etc. etc.). Quite frankly, I don’t think it is possible for someone from China to get a Visa to go to the USA to marry someone they’ve never met in person. You may be misinformed or else reading the press, which likes to distort facts. Anyway, the implication from your statement is that for most Chinese women “jumping the line” is their only path, and I think that is a gross mistatement of the facts.

    As far as random social security numbers that aren’t tied to anyone, it is still breaking the law. Are these people who use random social security numbers paying proper taxes? If they don’t file tax returns how do we know they paid more or less than they should have? I’m sorry, it is still breaking the law. How do you know they aren’t claiming a bunch of deductions, to make their tax withholding really low, knowing that they won’t need to file a tax return since they are using a fake social security number that can’t be traced back to them. I just don’t get the idea that this is somehow an OK thing to do. I offered up the restitution thing figuring there would be some counterargument given. What I keep hearing is it is OK to break the law, even at someone else’s expense, and it is because these people are doing it to obtain jobs or buy houses, and that somehow makes it OK for some reason. It’s plain and simple fraud, and it costs lots of people lots of money and hardship as a result. And I don’t buy the argument that it is in some cases a “victimless” crime.

  37. “I dislike them as much as any illegal immigrants,”

    Anon, you dislike these PEOPLE or you dislike what they DID?

    There is a big difference.

  38. anon

    I dislike what they did. Sorry if I wasn’t clear on that – no one ever accused me of writing clearly!

  39. Emma

    Anon, I wish your wife all the best in getting into nursing practice in the U.S. We need her. I may be a little biased, but we nurses ROCK!!!

  40. anon

    Thanks. Emma. Like I said, my wife has a long path to go as all the English medical terminology is really a killer. I’ve taken a look at sample NCLEX exams online, and I don’t even know a lot of the terms so I would think for someone who’s first language isn’t English it must be doubly hard. Anyway, I will say that nursing is a very honorable profession and it is a lot of hard work and long hours too.

  41. Dignidad

    Moonhowler, I was not being sarcastic, I was just trying to be realistic. I have seen people state that the wait can be that long. Immigration to the USA is not an entitlement.

  42. Elena

    I have read several posts that state people don’t want their tax dollars going to such an endeavor to fund a Naturalization Center. Well folks, I DON’T want my tax dollars wasted on an illegal immigration resolution. What communites have faced in PWC and elsewhere, is we we clearly had a huge housing boom, which subsequently created an influx of laborers to build those homes. Now, maybe some are not documented and some are, NO ONE here, despite some deluded posters from BVBL, can simply “eyeball” someone and know what their status is, simply not possible. So, lets try this alternate idea on “for size”. Work with me folks, bare with me. INSTEAD of a divisive resolution, we instead invest our money in helping folk who are here legally, learn the rules of every day life here, learn the language, become “vested” in their new country of residence by helping them become citizens. Now, as an added benefit, for those legal residents who may KNOW undocumented persons, their integration will surely be a benefit to those around them. We have all had those experiences, the groups we hang out in high school, those cliques, could have real influence over people. What if, just what if, by promoting real integration for legal citizens, simply by modeling and sharing what they learn, it benefits all who surround them. Now, if people hadn’t been complaining about behavior in their neighborhoods, would we be here, fighting about an illegal immigration resolution with neighborhoods still facing serious challenges? Some will say yes, simply seeing your neighborhood change color may have been enough to panic some, but then that CLEARLY would have been seen as racist, and we don’t believe in racism now……do we?

  43. Dignidad

    I think the resolution is important. When immigrating illegally is more difficult than going through the process correctly, illegal immigration will decrease.
    I don’t think we need to spend tax dollars on helping legal immigrants learn the culture and laws. That is the job for groups like La Raza and MSF. (that is if they care about the people themselves, rather than using them to have more political power)

  44. LuckyDuck

    Leila, I understand you’re busy with work and life things…

    I am not “deliberately misreading” you at all…or at least I don’t understand how you think that. I have been posting here from pretty close to the start of this blog and have not mislead or intentionall misread anyone. Please don’t misinterpret my words, they are exactly what I mean, no hidden ideas.

    As for your question, again, I thought I answered it, if they are guilty of Identity fraud or theft, then as I said they should not be eligible for the pathway to citizenship. Therefore, they should be deported upon conviction. Perhaps you are not reading close enough…:)

  45. anon

    LuckyDuck – I’m not sure if they should be deported upon conviction or after serving a lenghty jail sentence. Then again, that means the taxpayers pay for their incarceration. However, I have a bad feeling that as soon as some of them are deported they’ll come right back. Unless we secure our borders, but that unfortunately isn’t going to happen in the short term. There is no real good answer, but for sure – no one guilty of identity theft or fraud should be eiligible for any form of amnesty.

    As to funding of these “Naturalization Centers” – I agree with Dignidad – let MWB or groups like that fund them, if they are really serious about helping. The problem is, from what I see of MWB, they don’t just want a path to citizenship, they don’t believe in borders and just think everyone should be able to come here for free, no fees or anything paid toward citizenship. That is why I think they’d never pay for any naturalization center. For the taxpayers to pay for it, again if amnesty gets enacted, I’m sure the taxpayers will end up paying a hefty bill for that. USCIS is never going to be able to handle the load on top of the existing immigration load, which they can barely keep up with. So we’re already going to get a bill for amnesty if it gets enacted, why should we also be paying for naturalization centers? Anyone who thinks amnesty will be no cost to taxpayers – I give it 6 months max after it gets enacted before USCIS comes asking for a huge amount of additional funding to handle the increased workload. And I’m sure it won’t be cheap – it will take many millions of dollars to modernize their system. The USCIS is a typically beauracracy, and when their workload grows by a huge percentage (I’m not sure what the predicted 12 million will add to it in terms of percentage, but I’m guessing 50% or more) – they will need to grow their beauracracy, at a cost to the taxpayer, obviously.

  46. Do the Right Thing

    Anon,

    All I’m saying is that there are a TON of online dating sites aimed at matching up American men with Chinese women for marriage. Do some people think this is a “legitimate” way to meet a mate. Undoubtedly, many do. And they probably do make a few trips over there to meet her etc., but how is that a more legitimate path for someone to get here? The end result is the same thing…they are able to get residency within a few years by fishing for a mate online when the alternative is no path to get here. That seems a heck of a lot easier to do than walking through a desert for 30 days and busting their butts once they get here doing menial American jobs. At least those immigrants are contributing to American society by working and paying taxes…even if it IS a false SS number.

  47. Do the Right Thing

    And I want to clarify…that these sites DO advertise it as looking for a mate online for MARRIAGE. It doesn’t say anything about dating…just in case someone on here found their mate online through Match.com or whatever. Those sites try to bring singles together…the overseas sites target marriage as the goal.

  48. LuckyDuck

    WHWN, I agree with your assessment of those sites. I don’t condone them at all. But at least innocent American citizen’s are not directly harmed or impacted by them using their stolen SSN’s with all of the credit and tax problems that are associated with it.

  49. LuckyDuck

    WHWN, I wanted to add, which would you rather have living next door to you, a mail order bride or someone using YOUR SSN to finance their American dream?

  50. Do the Right Thing

    I want to clarify that I do not hate anyone who is an online overseas bride/mail order bride or anything like that, I just wonder why that is considered an acceptable method of obtaining residency but we can’t allow residency for people that want to come here to work and contribute.

    LuckyDuck, I just don’t see how using a SS, but not the identity, is considered so heinous when there is no other option available. This does not hurt anyone’s credit and any money made by an illegal whose name does not match the Owner’s SS # does not get credited to the real owner of the #…are there a few instances that could be cited? Probably, but not 12M! Obviously, it would be vastly better for everyone (Americans and immigrants) who are currently working under a false SS # to be able to get a SS # and not continue to do so, but this idea is considered “amnesty” by so many even with fines attached, paying any back taxes due etc. SOMETHING has to give…12 M people are just not going to disappear.

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