Haven’t we all heard this before, we are not “real Americans” for daring to say we will not join the mob scene in its fevered hate for Hispanics? How many times have we been called “illegal alien apolotists” ? Does this sound familiar, being called “parasite” who should be “tried for treason”. For those of you believe that violent language will not eventually lead to action, pay close attention. There is an extremist side that is being fueled by ignorance, and at some point, I firmly believe, violence will erupt.

The three telephone calls May 18, however, were more explicitly threatening, CASA officials said.

One was left in a voice mail to Bautista on a Washington number he uses for his work as the Latino missioner of the Episcopal Diocese of Washington. “Don’t be surprised when there’s a [expletive] bullet in the back of your [expletive] brain,” the caller said, according to a recording made available by CASA staffers.

Another call that day was left as a message on CASA’s 800 number. Six of the 19 words were curse words, with the caller saying CASA should not be surprised if somebody blows up one of the group’s facilities.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/02/AR2008060202754.html

107 Thoughts to “Violent threats made against Immigrant Advocacy Group”

  1. Elena

    stw,
    Oh, did I mispell something, I certainly do apologize. Yes, every once in awhile we all get tired of being personally called out on, not on our differences of opinion, but on very personal physical characteristics. What name calling are you talking about on anti that has risent to the level of “parasite, dog food, breeder, diseased human being, immoral by nature, criminal, etc”? There is NOTHING over here that even resembles BVBL.

    Furthermore, maybe you are too young to recall, but several doctors lost their lives to the antiabortion movement, clinics were bombed, and women were regularly harassed and threatened. Their was language, common in that day, that was acceptable to call doctors and women murderers, until one day, the first doctor was shot and killed. Then there were clinic bombings and more shootings. That WAS terrorism to me. What fueled that final decent into violence…………………….rhetoric from the extreme anti abortion side. Now, if you truly believe I am being “dramatic” , I clearly cannot change your opinion, but that is all it is in the end, your opinion. I have mine, you have yours.

  2. anon

    hello – we had the exact same experience. I was accused of being a regular poster on Greg’s board even though I’ve never posted there ever (but do read it). And one poster here had the nerve to tell me I was helping to enable an event like the Holocaust! Pretty over the top stuff, but par for the course for some of the more extremists on this board. Like you, I also have never met Greg, never attended an HSM meeting, etc. etc. It’s funny how these automatic labels get applied to people who are pro-resolution by a certain vocal subset of posters on this board. In short, there’s a lot of way over the top rhetoric on both sides of this debate – but this blog sometimes likes to pretend it doesn’t engage in it – even though a rather vocal subset of its posters do just that.

  3. Elena

    Anon,
    The difference in those other topics is that the immigration rhetoric stands on its own for decending into personal attacks. Now I agree, we can all get passionate about what we believe, I do try to pretend as though I am speaking to people in person, and remember, I would say nothing here that I would not feel comfortable saying directly to that person. My question to you is , “what IS different about the immigration topic that promotes such uncivil discourse”

    I am not pro-amnesty, this cannot be reduced to a bipolar issue of for and against illegal immigration, it just isn’t that simple. I would add that most people who post here are NOT for amnesty. I am for a required path to citizenship with specific benchmarks that must be met.

  4. stw

    Elena, 3. June 2008, 17:14

    I was referring to your post regarding WTOP – How did we get to terrorism, abortion clinics and murder?

  5. hello

    anon – good point, I do agree there is alot of rehtoric on both sides and that most of the over the top statements here come from a small group of posters. And I must admit, I have not seen the Nazi, Holocaust comparisons here as much as I use to. It use to be an every day theme but went over the top when an acutal topic was comparing our very own PWCPD to Nazi storm troopers. I’m glad to see most of that stuff phased out because it was some of the most offensive garbage I have ever read. However, apparently we are now moving on to comparing HSM (which for some reason I constantly feel the need to say that I’m not a member of..) is being compared to the Taliban and the Mujihadee. I kind of cringe when I think of what’s next once that gets played out…

  6. hello

    Elena, anon is right, have to admit that “this blog sometimes likes to pretend it doesn’t engage in it” when it comes to the name calling. The name calling, from what I can tall, is pretty frequent on this site. To not admit it would only leave me to believe your reading with blinders on or you have become so acustom to it you don’t notice it any more.

  7. Firedancer

    stw, 16:54:
    I have never understood why those of your persuasion, for lack of a better term, like to be called “patriots”. Why is that? And by contrast, why should those who are more empathetic with the plight of immigrants be considered “unpatriotic”?

  8. anon

    Elena – if you take a look (assuming they are still there) about articles on gun control, church/synagogue burnings/vandlalism – just as a few examples, those degenerated into name calling and other hateful stuff (anti-semitic remarks in the instance of one article a year or so about vandalism to a synagogue with Nazi symbols) and WTOP did nothing whatsoever to stop it. Again, I say they are being selective in which subjects they squelch the hateful dialog and which subjects they let it run wild. The gun control posts really degenerate fast – and they are probably easy to find assuming they are still there on their website (to be honest I don’t know that they have an archive or not).

    Anyway, my point is, they are cherry picking what dialog they allow and what they don’t – and if you use that rule then they should have killed comments on a whole bunch of topics or articles they’ve had in the past. Maybe this is a new policy, and we’ll see it applied to other subjects besides immigration, and if so, I’ll rest my case!

  9. anon

    Actually speaking for myself, I wouldn’t think of the label of “patriot” in terms of anything to do with the immigration debate.

  10. anon

    hello – you are right – the Nazi stuff has died down. I was a rather vocal protester of it at the time – especially with the very thread you mention. I don’t think I changed any minds though – but at least some people stopped making comparisons of what is going on in PWC with the Holocaust – which as a Jewish person I found particularly distasteful and very much minimizing what happened with the Holocaust. Then again someone tried to tell me I didn’t understand the Holocaust at all and was naive for thinking something like it couldn’t happen here! Pretty funny stuff when you think about it.

  11. Poor Richard

    Doing the monthly cleaning of my desk area I rediscovered a good op/ed
    piece by E.J. Dionne Jr. in the WaPo (5-26-2006) on the immigration issue.
    If you are on either extreme, doubt if it will appeal to you, but it is. perhaps, food
    for thought for the moderate middle.
    In part:

    “Advocates of a more liberal policy towards illegal immigrants need to take
    seriously the discontent that the anti-immigration movement has tapped
    into. Immigration has been a blessing to the United States, but it is not
    an unmixed blessing, and the cost of our immigration policies are borne
    more heavily by some parts of our society than others. Rather than dismiss
    all immigration critics as xenophobes, supporters of immigrant rights need
    to deal with the legitmate gribes of their opponents.”

    “The most basic is that immigrants cost local government money even
    as they fill feel federal coffers with payroll taxes. ‘ The tax cost are local,
    but the tax windfalls are national,’ says Cecilia Munoz, vice president for policy
    at the National Council of Raza. ‘ It becomes a potent political issue
    locally, and there is nothing local governments can do. ‘ ”

    “Of course, the immigration battle is just not about economics. It also often
    entails sharp cultural confrontation, paticularly in areas of heavy
    immigration.”, but economics is a core issue that must be addressed.
    It would be good to see both political parties bring forth specific plans to mitigate
    the adverse fiscal impacts of immigration on local jurisdictions. That
    would be a major step in the right direction.

  12. stw

    Firedancer, 3. June 2008, 17:56
    stw, 16:54:
    I have never understood why those of your persuasion, for lack of a better term, like to be called “patriots”. Why is that? And by contrast, why should those who are more empathetic with the plight of immigrants be considered “unpatriotic”?

    Firedancer – YOU said it – I did not.

  13. Emma

    Rod, it’s hard to plow through your metaphorical salad without laughing out loud. Come on, who are you? Do you even understand why the Mujihadeen existed in the first place? You talk about fascism, nativism, the Taliban, Greg, etc, as if they are all synonymous. Since it’s all equal to you, I guess you could lump broccoli in with all of those evils, since I absolutely HATE it and would like to erect a large public sign in protest of it. Come on down to earth with some real thought.

  14. Is it the part about the White and Hispanic kids in Herndon dating that infuriates you or that I have denounced demigod Greg for what he is…

    Is Greg not the head of an selective minority organization whom have used misinformation, fear, threats, marginalization and religion to push their political agenda?

    This is exactly what the Taliban did in Afghanistan. When the people did not buy it, they moved on to brute force terrorism.

    Now I would say that’s ancient history and even though Greg’s group is bearing much similarity to the early stages of any historical fascist organization, history is the past and the past is dead….

    …until you forget it, then your doomed to repeat it. Have you forgotten what the Ideals of the Taliban accomplished in this country the last time?

    “BS ROD! the Taliban was made up of foreigner Islamofacist, we don’t do that kinda thing here in Amurica”

    Tim Mcveigh proved that disenchanted Americans are just as capable of making their beliefs manifest through violence as anyone else on the face of the earth. These are extreme cases, but they all started out just like Greg, a man with a vision of a community founded on the exclusion of others.

    Greg and his…Toadies have made it crystal clear that they do not want Hispanics in general to settle in Prince William County. They manufacture evidence to state that all Hispanics are a 3rd world culture and are the harvengers of the disease of “poverty-itus” (among many other fanciful ones). Housing values drop? blame a Hispanic! Lost your job? Blame a Hispanic! Wife left you? blame a Hispanic! substitute “Hispanic” with “Black” or “Jew” and you know what type of hell you would catch!

    Yes Greg has made it crystal clear, works hard to subtly equate “Illegal Immigrant” with “Hispanic/Latinos” and uses full throttled Jingoism to make it in your minds that when you here “Mexican” you think “VERMIN” (a very popular term oft used by Hitler himself to take the humanity out of the Jews in the eyes of the German people). Now I start labeling you as Nativist Taliban, giving you a taste of your own medicine and you don’t like it. You decry it as “Defamation” and “Slander” but you speak in terms as if those are only protections for Whites. The latest fashion in self defense of racial Intolerance is to try and emasculate the traditional lexicon of terms for the intolerant. You say it’s politically incorrect to label someone a “Racist”,”Nativist” “Facist” “Terrorist” (unless their Muslim) and “Bigot.” Thus you try and render us with no term to describe what you really are.

    –F@$% NATIVIST REVISION—

    Your minority wants America clean of “Latinos” My majority want America clean of Bigots! and though we may never get you to change, we can certainly breed you into obscurity because what will you prejudice against when the Children of the future have a little bit of every race in them? This is not a Nation of Laws, it’s a Nation of people who obey Just Laws and collectively forget unjust laws. The Rule of Law will only succeed when the law is founded in the Rule of Reason. Any State ruled by the madness that Greg promotes in his self gratifying narcissistic view that one race is better than another deserves to be chastised, thus I chastise you.

  15. Elena

    Hello,
    Besides my moment of brevity, where exactly is the name calling to specific people. Yes, Greg does get alot of gospel greg, but please, share with me the overwhelming name calling. I honestly do want to promote civil discussion, mostly 😉

    I think that there were many people duped into believing that a resolution was going to fix our problems. I believe that much of the unrest is in direct relation to a sudden demographic change. My point earlier, was that if we could actually deal with the neighborhood issues, and overcrowding some other issues were dealt with, would we still have this clamor for tax payer money to be used to scare away the “undesirables” ? I believe, that we would still be facing fear regarding our changing world. I just refuse to become hostage to that fear.

    Where was the modicum of research regarding the resolution? Why was it up to a handful of citizens to determine what the best way to resolve some of these neighborhood issues were? How is it, that someone like Robert Duecaster was able to actually write and submit to our county Board, the first written policy on the immigration resolution? Who is HE to determine the fate of my county? This is a man who on a regular basis makes comments like this:

    “Advocator said on 15 May 2008 at 11:50 am:
    Something more than voting may be needed at this point.”

    “Advocator said on 16 May 2008 at 10:18 am:
    Buy guns and ammo during the hiatus Mando. They scare the $hit out of liberal politicians, fat broads, and illegal invaders.”

    “Advocator said on 3 Jun 2008 at 9:29 am:
    Folks, when I use the term, “Da Fat Broads,” I really am not referring to anyone specific. It’s a generic term somewhat equivalent to “those guys.”
    Now having said that, I’m reminded of a story told to me by a Kenyan anthropologist about an African bird (the Foo bird), whose feces smelled so bad, that if it crapped on you, even if you washed it off, you would still stink. Bottom line, if the Foo $hits, wear
    it!”

    “dvocator (aka Robert Duecaster from bvbl) said on
    This population growth, people, is what the Rule of Law Resolution and the fight over illegal immigration is all about.”

    This is the brilliant mind behind John Stirrup’s first illegal immigration resolution attempt? Where were the professional experts on immigration law, economics, iimmigration history, etc. Well, there were none, absolutely none. There was not forethought, no research, no consensus buidling! There was nothing but heightened fear and rhetoric. So am I a little upset/disappointed ? Yes. I would have expected more from my county supervisors, especially Corey.

  16. Elena

    I would like someone , who supports greg and his resolution, to refute, piece by piece, “rod2155, 3. June 2008, 18:22” arguments, and tell me where he is wrong.

  17. stw

    rod2155, 3. June 2008, 18:22

    WOW! You really do have a tendancy to “spin” out of control.
    Why can’t YOU understand (and trust me, it’s not that difficult) to distinguish between LEGAL and ILLEGAL? You sound like you are so full of hate.
    Time for a check up from the neck up?

  18. hello

    Elena, I honestly do not think that the resolution was a “direct result in a sudden demographic change”. If it was it wasn’t for me and most of the people that I know that support it as well. Ever since I’ve lived here (for about 17 years) we have always (PWC, Manassas) had a Latino population. Sure, it grew over the years but I would never consider it to be a “sudden change” in any way. I’ve played soccer (getting too old for that now) in PWC and Manassas for a while and trust me, there has always been a pretty good size Hispanic population. I just think that over time people got more and more fed up with living conditions and decided to vote in who they thought would do something about it instead of looking the other way all of the time.

    You and I both know that when something was attempted to be done about the overcrowding, and other residential issues, it was fought all of the way. There was no way for them to enforce anything without a discrimination suit. I would have to say that it just wouldn’t work, it’s a sticky wicket that I don’t think anyone would want to touch.

    Also, the resolution isn’t intended to “scare away the undesirables”, at least for me it wasn’t. I have to admit that I don’t know much about Robert Duecaster but if those are his comments I don’t agree with them…

  19. anon

    Elena, I don’t support Greg but I do support the resolution as currently implemented (as of the recent change a month or two ago). However, I wouldn’t waste my breath refuting Rod’s hateful commentary. All I see are hateful words like bigot, Taliban, etc. Again, to refute those kinds of remarks would be to give it a dignity it doesn’t deserve. And by the way – I again see time and time that anyone who supports the resolution must be a “Greg supporter”. There is too much generalization of people who support the resolution – and intentionally trying to label each and every one of them as racist, bigots, and other terms. It gets a bit tiring and I see no reason to time and time again refute it. I’ve already tried that in countless other threads on the board – and in one response as i said, I was directly told that I was clueless about the Holocaust! Pretty funny, being a Jewish person for one thing in religious school we are taught plenty about the Holocaust, plus I have more personal knowledge of it given that I know people who were directly impacted by it. Anyway, I’d be repeating what I’ve already said in many other threads on this board if I tried to refute all those comments.

  20. anon

    Also, I have no clue who this “Richard Duecaster” person is – but I will also say if he makes those kinds of comments, he is one of the extremists obviously and my views don’t at all coincide with his views. I have never heard of him until I keep seeing him referenced on this board from time to time.

  21. Reading through here, I think there needs to be a distinction made between those who really want to reform immigration (myself included) and those who are using the anti-immigrant movement as a forum to spew hate. At this point there is no doubt, if you read the “Help Save” newsletters, that this a movement to oppose immigration and immigrants, regardless of whether they are here illegally or not.

    Given the rhetoric on the BVBL website, as Daughter of Italy points out, I think it is a fair and reasonable question to ask: who is pushing this movement? Yesterday, for instance, a writer started touting Italy’s Berlusconi (who proudly calls himself a fascist) as a model of what America should look toward to “solve” the immigration problem. These references, along with the clear hate speech, and I’m talking here about people who seem to revel in the suffering, mistreatment and even murder of others, clearly indicates that this is not just standard racism, but something much more sinister. For those of you who whine that you’re being tarred with this brush–take a look at what is being written here and then take a look at some of the white supremacist rhetoric that is touted locally. You need go no further than the local Nazi party which is headquartered in Manassas. It’s striking how similar the sentiments, and in some cases, turns of phrase, are between the local Nazis and other fellow citizens who are trying to “save” PWC.

  22. anon

    Elena – we should not have to point out the name calling on this board. It is all there in the archives and many of the threads. I personally have been called a Nazi, told to go “back to my scumhole” (very nice), a Holocaust enabler, and a host of other things. And, I have never ever called anyone here any names. I find it to be very one sided the name calling on this board. Certainly there is name calling on BVBL, but it is a poor excuse for this board to engage in it as some kind of retribution. And, as several of us have pointed out, we are NOT “Greg supporters” nor are we posters on BVBL, despite what some of your posters would like to believe! Also, to me it is kind of childish, and again I say that this board likes to pretend it is above all the name calling, but really it isn’t, and is just as bad as BVBL from what I see.

    There isn’t a thread on this board that doesn’t have some kind of name calling in it. Sure, BVBL is the same way, but at least they don’t pretend they are “above name calling”! And yes, on this board it is only a few posters, but they are very vocal in their name calling and do it all too frequently – when it seems to be unprovoked by anyone on this board. Again, if it is in response to the name calling on BVBL, it is wrong to attack those of us who post on this board, who don’t even post on BVBL. I feel like a broken record, this is probably the 7th time on this board I’ve had to say I’m not a “Greg supporter”. But I’ve seen some vile comments on this board about Greg – one basically pulling his wife and children into the discussion and making some pretty ugly comments – and that was basically unprovoked as far as I could tell. So there are plenty of examples, but why should any of us have to point them out – they are all there in the archives!

  23. hello

    I agree with anon, we shoudn’t have to point out the name calling. For example, If you don’t realize relating all HSM members to the Taliban and terrorist then you just don’t get it (which is pretty clear by your call for anyone to refute anything Rod had said). This type of stuff is all over the place here, it’s no better than the other site some times.

  24. anon

    Elena – I missed something you said earlier – in that you said you would never post something here that you wouldn’t say to that person face to face. That’s a very good point to make. Unfortunately, there are some posters here who don’t follow that rule. I am sure they would not call someone a Nazi, a Taliban, a terrorist, or the host of other things that people who post here have been called by a certain subset of the posters on this board. Maybe those posters would do well to follow your rule, as it is quite a good one actually. If so, I would wager to say this blog would be a whole lot easier to read, without having to see this constant barrage of name calling and personal attacks. I also tend to think, while we have moved beyond labeling people as Nazis, as “hello” pointed out above – apparently labeling them as Tailban and terrorists is the new vogue! I also think, as hello hinted at, I have an idea of what the next “buzzword of the day” will be to label someone as, but I won’t put it here as I don’t want to put any ideas into certain poster’s heads!

  25. stw

    The following is just a small example of nastiness from a couple of posts above this one – complements of “SWEET Sara:”

    “It’s striking how similar the sentiments, and in some cases, turns of phrase, are between the local Nazis and other fellow citizens who are trying to “save” PWC.”

    And that’s just ONE of MANY!!!!!!!!!!

  26. Censored bybvbl

    Anon, here’s Robert Duecaster in action (along with a few others). I think he’s part of the repulsion. Ha ha.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuvFhB1k3x0

  27. anon

    Censored – thanks for the link – quite frankly I’ve never seen that person (Robert Duecaster) talking before, but I will confess to never attending a BOCS meeting and haven’t had time to watch a lot of videos from 9500 Liberty. I will say I wouldn’t want to in any way align myself with his views. Some of the other people, I can’t say I disagree with what they are saying, however.

  28. Elena

    But stw, people use terminology, whose origin stems from KKK and Neo Nazi literature and they aren’t not even aware of it…..invasion, parasites, etc. Please, take a moment and visit a KKK or Neo Nazi website, you will see what I am referring to.

  29. anon

    And I’m assuming (probably correctly) that he was that older gentleman with the rather shaky sounding voice who had some pretty over the top rhetoric. Personally, I tend to discount the extremists on both sides of the debate. I find both of their rhetoric to be distasteful – and as I said before, I find there is a lot of over the top rhetoric on both sides of the debate. Neither side can claim they are “pure” as in not engaging in some fairly hateful dialog at times. I like to think however, that is is just a few very vocal extremists on both sides of the debate. However, on this board it seems there is a somewhat widespread view that everyone “pro-resolution” must have over the top views like this, and be a lot of other things (I won’t repeat myself for the umpteenth time as to what those things are – as they are sprinkled throughout this very thread!).

  30. Firedancer

    stw, hello, anon, whoever else,
    If you don’t post on bvbl or agree with Greg’s methods, then don’t take the comments here so personally. Because I see in bvbl the seeds that have allowed other hateful groups to come to power in other times and places, I think it is very important to bring these comparisons to light. How do we know such groups like the Nazis and the KKK can never come to prominence again? Just why is it so wrong to make the comparisons if that is how we see it? Why is that name calling?

  31. hello

    Firedancer – let’s please not start these comparisons all over again. I was just saying that I was happy that it had started to get phased out, please don’t start it up again. I’m not going to even get into how offensive it is to make the whole Nazi comparisons (YET AGAIN).

  32. Emma

    Rod, would you kindly define the word “harvenger”? I’m trying to make sense of what you are saying. I”m not sure whom you were addressing in your last post, but you seem to be doing a fair job at lumping everyone together into one mass of hateful bigotry if they don’t agree with you lock, stock and barrel (ooops, forgive the gun reference; I don’t have a violent bone in my body). Your tunnel vision is undermining whatever you are trying to communicate to us. Elena, your tacit agreement with Rod and your challenge to us to try to refute him point by point leads me to believe that you subscribe to the same extremes. Are you really lumping every dissenter here in with fascists, etc.? That doesn’t really leave much more room for constructive discussion, does it?

  33. Censored bybvbl

    Anon, what is scary is the fact that this guy (Duecaster) is the person responsible for PWC’s Immigration Resolution. I think the BOCS (and definitely the citizens of this county) would have been better served by having public hearings to address some of these neighborhood problems instead of passing this resolution. As you can see/read by perusing various blogs, newspaper articles, and talking to residents The Immigration Resolution has brought unneccessary hostility to our county and not solved the neighborhood problems people complain about. Maybe there’s now a hiatus with many vacant houses that aren’t as over-crowded, but that will soon change for the worse as many of the houses become rentals, the grass continues to grow, and school ends and bored kiddos become fascinated by the “clubhouse” down the street.

  34. From the Wikipedia, a definition of “Hate Speech”:

    “Hate speech is a term for speech intended to degrade, intimidate, or incite violence or prejudicial action against a person or group of people based on their race, gender, age, ethnicity, nationality, religion, sexual orientation, gender identity, disability, language ability, moral or political views, socioeconomic class, occupation or appearance (such as height, weight, and hair color), mental capacity and any other distinction-liability. ”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech

    I think the “Illegal is Illegal” BVBL crowd has long since met this definition for what they are engaging in.

    I am all for engaging in a debate on reforming our immigration policy. But there is no point in debating with people who are only interested in finding ways to use our nation’s laws to discriminate against a selected group of people. Those who engage in “Hate Speech” are only interested in tearing down, not building up.

  35. anon

    Elena – let me take a different tact for a minute. Would you like to be lumped in with some of your posters who are posting hateful things on this very blog? That’s what is happening to too many of us who post here and happen to be for some aspects of the resolution (and i did not say I was for ALL aspects of it – actually I rather like it the way it changed as of a few months ago – which I view as a “softening” of it). Somehow, several of us are being lumped in with very extremist elements of the “anti-illegal-immigrant” side (for lack of a better term – and even that isn’t necessarily accurate). How is that fair? And most of us probably feel like we have to don a “flack jacket” to post on this board. In another thread one poster even attacked my wife and equated her to be a “Chinese mail-order bride” which is nothing further from the truth. This person has no clue how i met my wife, and I kind of feel like I don’t owe him/her any explanation even though I sort of gave an indirect one without detailing the actual circumstances of how we really met. But it was basically said that “at least people who work for low wages and steal social security numbers are making a positive contribution to our society whereas Chinese mail-order brides (not that my wife is one) are not”! At least one other poster in that thread agrees with me that the comments were way out of bounds, and really amounted to a personal attack which was quite unprovoked on my part. All I did was make the very simple statement that I thought it was unfair to people like my wife who had to go through a long process to get her VISA, for amnesty to suddenly be granted to people who didn’t go through that long process (even if they had to be smuggled across the border in some dangerous way). In response I got a personal attack, and that’s typical of what goes on here by a certain subset of posters. Anyway, to claim this blog does not have name calling and personal attacks – when there are many many examples of it, is hard to believe.

  36. anon

    Emma – I’m not sure the exact spelling of the word (might be harvinger) but the best way I could describe it would be “bringer” or maybe “portending” or something like that. Anyway, I sort of got turned off by the posts somewhere in the middle and stopped trying to make an effort to really read through them and understand them in all their fine detail!

  37. anon

    Censored – OK I’ll confess I didn’t know the real history of the resolution – I only became really concerned about the whole problem about 2 months ago as I’ve kind of discussed before due to personal circumstances in my neighborhood that impacted me directly. So before that I was aware of what was going on in PWC with the resolution (I live within the City of Manassas limits) but wasn’t following it very closely, so didn’t know the history of how it was authored or by whom (or is it by who?? i never can tell when to use who/whom). Thanks for enlightening me. However, while he may have authored it, I’m sure many person’s reviewed it, and obviously the BOCS approved it. Well, i won’t get into that whole debate, as I’m showing my obvious ignorance as to the origins of the resolution, and appreciate the info you just passed along to me in your post.

  38. Firedancer

    Ok, hello, I definitely don’t enjoy going round and round about the same thing either. It’s just that for those of who DO see legitimate comparisons, it is not mere namecalling, but rather asking people to consider history and to be ever vigilant.

  39. anon

    Censored, and as to your comment about vacant houses – I’ve got two foreclosures sitting directly across the street from me. I’m rather sure they had nothing to do with the resolution though – a review of the city tax records online (which anyone can do) show both those townhouses purchased for exhorbitant prices (around $350,000 each) 2 years ago. Knowing who the inhabitants were (they worked for some concrete company that would pick them up in the wee hours of the morning just around the time I was getting up to go to work) – they could not possibly have afforded a mortgage like that. No wonder they foreclosed, and I’m sure it had nothing to do with the resolution. Well, I don’t know if who bought the house actually ever lived there or rented it out, but the purchasers of the two houses both had Hispanic surnames.

    Anyway, the point I wanted to make, is unfortunately my house will be becoming a rental manged by a local real estate company – as it makes no financial sense for me to sell my house – I’d have to price it like these two foreclosures which are going for $170,000. I’d need to sell my house by as early as mid-October when the new house may possibly be ready for move-in. Even though I paid much less than that for my house when I bought it new in 1985, I’m unwilling to sell it for such a ridiculously low price as $170,000. So I’m going with the guaranteed lease program my builder has – and they’ve guaranteed me $1350/month rent from the day I move in to the new house. But the point I wanted to make, is I hope my house doesn’t become a problem house – it is kind of out of my hands who the real estate company rents to – but they seem to be going to make sure the house doesn’t get destroyed as they claim to make semi-monthly inspections. I am a bit nervous as to what’s happening with these two foreclosures across the street. Fortunately the homeowner’s association has been keeping the grass cut so that’s a plus (the one good thing the homeowner’s association here seems to have done in recent times).

  40. anon

    Firedancer – asking us to be vigilant against history repeating itself is one thing. Calling some of us the very names that we have been called is quite another. How anyone can defend the name calling in that regard is beyond my comprehension. And it is definitely belittling certain historical events (which I won’t once again mention for the umpteenth time) to say that what is happening in PWC is as bad or worse than those events. And, that was specifically said by several posters on this blog, and they made no bones about saying it, and anyone who disagreed with them (including me) were either told we were clueless about those events, or labeled as the very people who initiated those events! How anyone can defend inexcusable behavior like that, is just astounding in my opinion. I’m deliberately avoiding the use of any of the actual words use, as it repulsed me at the time, and I’m tired of even referring to those words. So if this was an attempt to ask us to be vigilant to make sure history doesn’t repeat itself, it failed spectacularly thanks to highly over the top rhetoric, name calling, and personal attacks that have been documented elsewhere, and even partially in this very thread. I beg to disagree that this was any kind of acceptable behavior, and I see people on this board making excuses for those attacks, and/or continually trying to say this board is above such things and it never happens here, only on “the other board”!

  41. Censored bybvbl

    Anon, the house next door to me has always been a rental. Some tenants were good. Some bad. Having an agency oversee it should help as long as they’re aware of exactly who’s living there. (A friend of mine was transferred overseas and had a rental agent handle her townhouse. The tenant sublet the townhouse illegally and then moved out leaving the person who sublet (a section 8 renter) there. My friend had to go to court to get that tenant evicted and it took months for suitable housing to be found for the tenant.) One advantage with a vacant townhouse as opposed to a single family house is that it quickly becomes obvious if kids break in so maybe that’s not a big problem in townhouse communities.

  42. anon

    Firedancer – in regards to not taking the comments here personally if we don’t post on BVBL. Well, that would be nice if I hadn’t been called a whole bunch of assorted names such as I’ve now well documented here and in other threads, and told I was clueless about certain historical events I have good reason to be fairly knowledgable on, and personally attacked in other ways (some quite novel, even an attack on Chinese mail-order brides since I was foolish enough to say that my wife was a legal Chinese immigrant!). Sorry, it is hard not to take such things personally. The topper was when it was said I was a certain historical political party member just because I supported the resolution – when that would be offensive to anyone of my religion. It was not one of these general labels of “HSM supporters” – it was said specifically to me by a certain poster here who likes to toss that term about in a rather nonchalant manner. Sorry, if you were attacked in that way you’d be offended too!

  43. anon

    Censored – yes I wouldn’t be doing this if i didn’t have some faith in this real estate company employed by the builder – for this “guaranteed lease program”. Actually they told me I had the right to accompany them on their inspections, which I might do if I had the time. Although really, I will be glad to be away from this neighborhood – and even the thought of coming back for a brief inspection is not that appealing to me. I’m hoping to unload the house in 2 or 3 years if prices recover (although that may be wishful thinking).

    We did have some section 8 renters across the street about 7 years back, and they were dreadful – I can’t count the number of times the police showed up there – not sure what the reasons were but it seemed once a month I’d happen to notice a police car there – although from what I observed one time it looked to be domestic violence situation. They were very scary looking folks (and actually they were all Caucasian – just in case anyone is thinking I’m referring to Hisapanics) and just had the general look of troublemakers in my opinion.

  44. anon

    Also good point about vacant townhouses versus vacant single family homes! Yes, i guess if all of the sudden you hear a loud party going on in the “vacant” townhouse next to you – you’ll be clued in right away that the teenagers or whomever have broken into that house and decided to make use of it as a clubhouse! Although these two townhouses are next to each other, so there’s only one neighbor for each of them instead of the usual two! It is odd the only 2 foreclosures on my street are next to each other, but that’s how it is for whatever reason.

  45. Emma

    Elena, 3. June 2008, 18:34
    I would like someone , who supports greg and his resolution, to refute, piece by piece, “rod2155, 3. June 2008, 18:22″ arguments, and tell me where he is wrong.

    OK, I’m taking the bait , with one caveat: For me, it’s not all about “Greg,” and it’s not “his resolution.” And I am not a Greg supporter, just a concerned citizen who supports most aspects of the resolution. That being said, here goes:

    rod2155, 3. June 2008, 15:23
    “The rhetoric here is getting pretty sickening”

    Rod, please do not tell us that you are not engaging in any inflammatory rhetoric yourself. You are lumping everyone together who has even the slightest degree of support for the resolution, and you are engaging in some pretty vile and offensive name-calling yourself.

    Then take a stand for your master and justify yourselves. I’m sick of the fear and hatred the Nativist Taliban minions of Demigod Greg spread into the web by building mutiple misinforming blogs and calling it a majority opinion. You try and rule the land thru intimidation and propaganda, par for the course of fascism.

    First of all, Greg is not mine or anyone else’s master. I’m not part of his organization in any way, shape or form. You give him WAY too much credit and only feed his ego with your ridiculous use of the word demigod. Greg–and his blog posters–are exercising their free-speech rights in the same way you are. You don’t have to agree with him, you can think his opinions are vile and disgusting, but if you try to suppress him, YOU are not learning from history and are forcing a kind of groupthink of your own. You don’t like the resolution, but the voters (however sparse) elected the BOCS–yes, elected Corey Stewart–and that is how our democracy works. Fascists hate democracy.

    Outside Hate groups tried to take advantage and control of Herndon but failed, we refused to be the DC embasy to the lobby of intolerance, so now they found a friend in Greg and are trying to make PWC into an example of a Navitist Utopia. You hijack a common American catch phrase “The Rule of Law” twist it to justify your own lust for exculsivity and make it into a pledge of allegiance to your mandate of Nativist Power.

    I’m having trouble deciphering this paragraph. There is no definition of the word “nativist” that I can find that gives it any sort of racist meaning. That word has been co-opted by the SPLC and its meaning twisted to reflect their own agenda. Does anybody remember a time when the word “faggot” referred to nothing more than a stick? Talk about “hijacking a catch phrase.” You have done it quite well yourself.

    And what hast the Lord Greg provided to his faithful minions? Security for the minority at the cost of the Freedom of ALL, and as Ben Franklin said, those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve NEITHER!!! The Nativist Taliban are running out of options, more than just illegal aliens are in exodus from PWC, there are not enough like minded bigots to replace the populace in exodus and they can no longer trick outsiders to come into their Navitist Utopia. You are being pushed to the wall by the social economic evolution of the U.S. There are NO, repeate NO presidential canidates who will support your Nativist Agenda, nor will your Federal Government, Nor will your State Government and soon your local government will be forced to submit to the true will of the Majority of citizens.

    First of all, I resent your use of the term “Lord” in vain in your vile, hate-filled outpouring. Please do not continue to “hijack” that term. Could you possibly show me where the “Majority of citizens” do not want some kind of immigration reform? I’m just not seeing it. I assume that by the “social economic evolution of the U.S. you are referring to the mortgage crisis and the high rate of foreclosures that has had nothing to do with the Resolution, but everything to do with corrupt lenders,realtors, and, yes, some greedy homeowners who bought homes they could not afford. I don’t know what a “nativist utopia” is, but I don’t know a single person who cares about the color of their neighbors’ skin; they just want their neighbors to abide by the same laws that they are compelled to abide by. Can you show us some numbers as to how many Americans support completely open borders and no controls on illegal immigration?

    Others have tried to succede from the union when it did not embrace intollerance… the monuments to their failures are down the road in Richmond surrounded by groups of multiracial young people making love and breeding out hate.

    Why do you think anyone cares if multiracial young people make love? That seems to be your own little voyeuristic obsession

    We are one people and we will surround HATE and force it to surrender! We Shall Overcome!

    Whom are you referring to? And aren’t you using the same language of warfare and violence that many of you here accuse the “other” blog of using? You know, how all of those little violent comments might someday lead to real violence?

    And to quote one of my favorite wise men: “And that’s all I have to say about that.”

  46. Regarding the Violent Threats:

    This is a “dog bites man” story because it’s not out of the ordinary. In fact threats should be expected when one takes a stand that does not involve fierce hatred for immigrants and/or Hispanic people. People who don’t hate immigrants are the new Dixie Chicks.

    Ask a journalist. Any journalist who writes an article that does not lash out irrationally at immigrants and/or Hispanic people will get more hate mail than for any other type of article. They often receive threats.

    I think it was last month when a Colorado politician found it unacceptable that a colleague referred to immigrants as “peasants”. That politician received so much hate mail and offensive phone calls (with language that would make a sailor blush) that her contact information had to be taken off the website. Remember Pizza Patron the restaurant that temporarily accepted pesos? They received threats. Pizza sales also increased 20% so you take the good with the bad.

    These people get ticked off easily too. On a certain debate forum a guy described how he saw Hispanic men bussing tables at an Outback Steakhouse. He wrote a scathing letter to the manager and vowed to never eat at Outback again because they hired illegal aliens. How he knew the men were illegal aliens I’ll never know. On the same forum another particiant expressed outrage that a commercial for alergy medication included a bumble bee with a Spanish accent. Hate is just engulfing them.

    This is NOT an isolated incident. This fierce hate of immigrants and Hispanics is overwhelming these people. Thankfully it is only a very small portion of the population. In the end the calls to Casa de Maryland will probably be traced to the home of an elderly couple who has a 40 year old son living in the basement.

  47. anon

    Actually a point I’ve made before – I’ve seen posters on this blog accusing the other blog of hate and fear mongering, but how is the post here that stirred up so much controversy not full of hate and fear mongering? That’s what I’d like someone to answer.

    Anyway, I’m glad Emma decided to rise up to the challenge, as she made very good points and far more eloquently and precisely than I could have. I just wanted to add the one additional point about fear mongering, which I’ve seen many people accuse BVBL of.

  48. anon

    And here’s one paragraph I can’t just let pass:

    “Greg and his…Toadies have made it crystal clear that they do not want Hispanics in general to settle in Prince William County. They manufacture evidence to state that all Hispanics are a 3rd world culture and are the harvengers of the disease of “poverty-itus” (among many other fanciful ones). Housing values drop? blame a Hispanic! Lost your job? Blame a Hispanic! Wife left you? blame a Hispanic! substitute “Hispanic” with “Black” or “Jew” and you know what type of hell you would catch!”

    Not really – if it still is out there in the archives of WTOP look for an article about a synagogue that was defaced with Nazi symbols. The article actually sort of lent sympathy to the “anger of the people who must have done it” saying that a good many Americans were justifiably angered at the USA’s relationship with Israel and blamed the Israel and the American Jews for a lot of our problems with Al-Queda – even tangentially linking 9/11 to this! I thought that was way way overboard, and apparently it was considered acceptable to make such a claim. In fact, the “comments” section was filled with hate filled diatribe towards American Jews, blaming the economy on them and other things. No one seemed to shut it down.

    So that’s where I challenge your above paragraph. In many quarters it is completely acceptable to blame Black people and Jewish people on things – I don’t think Hispanics can lay claim to the statement “they are the only ones who it is acceptable to to blame things on such as loss of job and so on”. I’ve seen plenty of mainstream articles blaming Jewish people for things in our economy, attributing it to “greed” by the alleged Jewish owners of banks and other things. I’ve actually read articles about Hollywood which has a heavy Jewish influence, and blaming the Jews on many things. So there’s plenty of evidence to contradict what you say in your first paragraph! The same goes for Black people – there’s plenty of evidence out there that they get blamed for many things (crime is a good example). For you to say Hispanics have the “exclusive” on this blame is kind of a pretty funny statement to make! Or for you to say it is “acceptable” to blame Hispanics, where it isn’t to blame Blacks or Jews – again that is a naive statement. It seems plenty acceptable in fairly mainstream press to blame Blacks or Jews on a multitude of things. And, in the wake of 9/11 – I saw plenty of mainstream press articles trying to link USA’s position with Israel as a good reason why 9/11 happened. It seemed a fairly acceptable position to take in a lot of editorials I saw at the time, which fairly mainstream publications felt no qualms about printing!

  49. Mando

    @ anon

    It’s the blatant hypocracy that certain people just fail to see.

    Also, what rod2155 fails to comprehend is that my (and the majority of PWC citizens and HSM members) problem lies with ILLEGAL ALIENS. NOT LEGAL CITIZENS. My neighborhood has always been diverse (unlike most posters here) and I like it that way.

    Some people just get their jollies by ranting I suppose. Some rants are just so asinine they’re neither worth the time nor effort responding to – ESPECIALLY since I’ve made it clear previously that I like the diversity in my neighborhood.

    When I read garbage like this:

    “Is it the part about the White and Hispanic kids in Herndon dating that infuriates you or that I have denounced demigod Greg for what he is…”

    all I can do is shake my head and move on. The guy isn’t worth responding to.

  50. So Mando, will you state that Greg Letiecq, the official head of Help Save Manassass, believes that all Ethnic Groups are equal, that a man from Africa, a Shia from Iran, a couple from Mexico and people all over the world despite what language/race/religion, have the right to immigrate to the USA exculsivly through LEGAL channels and live here. That they are all welcome to practice their culteral and religious beliefes within the confines of the Laws of the United States of America and the Commonwealth of Virginia? That all citizens of the U.S. both forigne and domestic are endowed with equal rights to life, Liberty and the persuit Happiness.

    IF Greg will can make that pledge with no exceptions then he is fighting the good fight and I will take back everything I have said, but if his ultimate purpose is to limit immigration to certian ethnicities and declare a standard of criterion that will define the “Pure American Citizen.” Then he is not fit to lead any group, especally any group that composes law. He has the right to do all this, and I have the right to protest him.

    Herndon follows the 287g, a program I have supported all along (though the price I question). I am for immigration reform and diplomatic reform so Americans can likewise travel to other Countries to work.

    Time and Time again Greg has alluded that our neighbors down south are a 3rd world race and that the more south and central Americans you let in, the more likely your neighboorhoods will turn into ghettos. He fears the latino population is bent on taking over this country and making it like Canada, where parts are Duel language.

    This is all mindless BS!!!! Greg-like Americans have made the same arguments about the Chinese, Italians, Irish, Poles and yes even the Cathloics and Jews early on. The same argument was made that their immigration here would bring poverty and crime to our great nation. It used to be said they could not control themselves when they saw “White Women” and would rape them in the broad daylight! ABSURD! it’s completly absurd, history and common sense have prooven that the vast majority of Humans from all over the world are not criminals and that every culture has about an equal small amount of criminals.

    And yet Greg is up there recently claiming that a 300 member gang fight in Manassass Park, (yet to be eye witnessed or reported) is basically a sign that this is what you will get if you allow Anyone to immigrate from south/central America. To try and balance he says he’s all for spreading “American Culture” to those “Troubled Regions.”

    Bringing NCLB to Mexico is not going to help the problems there, perhaps forcing American Factories that reside in Mexico to pay the Mexican workers what they would normally pay American workers could start a process of building up a strong Mexican economy so that the Mexican workers don’t feel they need to come to the U. S. and work like slaves for the same American Corporations, but we don’t ever seem to want to talk about that… it’s more fun to pretend that Mexicans are greddy and only want to invade the U.S. to take away our freedoms and force us to become slaves. Reads out like a fantasy novel, and I’m sure Greg reads many during his idle brooding at home.

    Greg Letiecq is just the latest person to hop into the standard fascist template. You cannot follow him and his ideals and complain about being painted with the same brush.

    Greg founded HSM, he is still the active leader of HSM, therefore if you are a member of HSM then you leave yourself open to the traditional American ridicule of fascism. In that tradition, I hereby state that HSM will also be known as the “NOVA Nativist Taliban”, untill a more fitting term is conceived or unless HSM and Greg repent fully and can state that they are for fair and comprhensive Immigration reform firmly rooted in the Rights of Humankind, not the dominance of the Aryan race.

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