From John McCain:Border Security and Immigration Reform
I have always believed that our border must be secure and that the federal government has utterly failed in its responsibility to ensure that it is secure. If we have learned anything from the recent immigration debate, it is that Americans have little trust that their government will honor a pledge to do the things necessary to make the border secure.
As president, I will secure the border. I will restore the trust Americans should have in the basic competency of their government. A secure border is an essential element of our national security. Tight border security includes not just the entry and exit of people, but also the effective screening of cargo at our ports and other points of entry.
But a secure border will contribute to addressing our immigration problem most effectively if we also:
Recognize the importance of building strong allies in Mexico and Latin America who reject the siren call of authoritarians like Hugo Chavez, support freedom and democracy, and seek strong domestic economies with abundant economic opportunities for their citizens.
Recognize the importance of pro-growth policies — keeping government spending in check, holding down taxes, and cutting unnecessary regulatory burdens — so American businesses can hire and pay the best.
Recognize the importance of a flexible labor market to keep employers in business and our economy on top. It should provide skilled Americans and immigrants with opportunity. Our education system should ensure skills for our younger workers, and our retraining and assistance programs for displaced workers must be modernized so they can pursue those opportunities
Recognize the importance of assimilation of our immigrant population, which includes learning English, American history and civics, and respecting the values of a democratic society.
Recognize that America will always be that “shining city upon a hill,” a beacon of hope and opportunity for those seeking a better life built on hard work and optimism.
Border security and our failed immigration system are more examples of an ailing Washington culture in need of reform to regain the trust of Americans. In too many areas — from immigration and pork barrel spending to Social Security, health care, energy security and tax relief — business-as-usual politics prevents addressing the important challenges facing our nation.
And, from Obama’s Blueprint for Change –
BARACK OBAMA’S PLAN FOR IMMIGRATION REFORM
“The time to fix our broken immigration system is now. … We need
stronger enforcement on the border and at the workplace. … But for
reform to work, we also must respond to what pulls people to America.
… Where we can reunite families, we should. Where we can bring in
more foreign-born workers with the skills our economy needs, we
should.”
–Barack Obama, Statement on U.S. Senate Floor,
May 23, 2007AT A GLANCE
Comprehensive Reform
Barack Obama has fought for comprehensive immigration reform that secures our border, fixes our broken immigration bureaucracy and puts the 12 million undocumented immigrants on a responsible path to citizenship.Commitment
If Congress does not act in the interim, Obama will revive immigration reform in the first year of his
presidency.THE PROBLEM
Undocumented Population is Exploding
The number of undocumented immigrants in the country has increased more than 40 percent since 2000.
Every year, more than a half-million people come illegally or illegally overstay their visas.
Immigration Bureaucracy is Broken
The immigration bureaucracy is broken and overwhelmed, forcing legal immigrants to wait years for
applications.
Immigration Raids are Ineffective
Despite a sevenfold increase in recent years, immigration raids only netted 3,600 arrests in 2006 and have placed all the burdens of a broken system onto immigrant families.BARACK OBAMA’S PLAN
Create Secure Borders
Obama wants to preserve the integrity of our borders. He supports additional personnel, infrastructure and technology on the border and at our ports of entry.
Improve Our Immigration System
Obama believes we must fix the dysfunctional immigration bureaucracy and increase the number of legal immigrants to keep families together and meet the demand for jobs that employers cannot fill.
Remove Incentives to Enter Illegally
Obama will remove incentives to enter the country illegally by cracking down on employers who hire
undocumented immigrants.
Bring People Out of the Shadows
Obama supports a system that allows undocumented immigrants who are in good standing to pay a fine, learn English, and go to the back of the line for the opportunity to become citizens.
Work with Mexico
Obama believes we need to do more to promote economic development in Mexico to decrease illegal
immigration.OBAMA RECORD
Crack Down on Employers
Obama championed a proposal to create a system so employers can verify that their employees are legally eligible to work in the U.S.
Fix the Bureaucracy
Obama joined Rep. Luis Gutierrez (D-IL) to introduce the Citizenship Promotion Act to ensure that
immigration application fees are both reasonable and fair. Obama also introduced legislation that passed the Senate to improve the speed and accuracy of FBI background checks.
Respect Families
Obama introduced amendments to put greater emphasis on keeping immigrant families together.
Both Obama and McCain miss the point of border security when they mix this issue with the issue of illegal immigration as if they were one and the same. If the immigrants could easily obtain visas to work here, they would fly here or come through a port of entry. It’s much cheaper and much safer. Once we have a realistic immigration system, illegal immigration is finished. We need to give amnesty and fix the immigration system so that we can do away with illegal immigration as soon as possible. This is necessary because the illegal immigration issue is political quicksand. To date, our politicians have been unable to generate the critical mass of moral courage necessary to tackle it. But we must tackle it. Because we can’t address the critically important issue of border security until we get the illegal immigration issue out of the way.
Border security has to do with only one thing. Protecting Americans from those who would come here, bringing catastrophic weapons, to kill us on a scale we have never experienced before. There is no security threat from people who just want to work. None whatsoever. The threat from those who would wage war on America is a life or death issue for our nation. It’s probably already too late to prevent the next attack.
The US faces many threats of varying degrees of danger in the world. Most of these threats can be classified as lethal nuisances but a few can be classified as existential threats. I think that our evolving relationship with Islam is turning into an existential threat. A nation-ending threat. That relationship is evolving towards one where there is no more room for dialog…just war. A Religious War. And those kinds of wars can last forever. And when I say Islam, I mean Islam….not ‘radical’ Islam (have we become so empty and cynical that we call people radical because they mean what they say and won’t lay down their beliefs for 20 pieces of silver?). We do not need to go to war with Islam…and certainly the american people abhor the idea…but our leaders have so little respect for the sons of muhammed that, even after 9-11, and all the suicide bombers since then who gave up all their dreams in this world for the love of their faith, our leaders still arrogantly believe that these impoverished people couldn’t possibly pose an existential threat given the awesome might of the United States. The only thing these impoverished people have on their side is their faith…but it is a faith that has stood the grueling test of time…it has raised powerful armies that brought much of the ancient world into it’s fold…it is a faith that has inspired millions of faithful to embrace death in its defense throughout the centuries. I don’t agree with much of the tenets of the Islamic faith (or any organized religion for that matter) but I do respect it’s power. We should never have so little respect for our own dearly won heritage of personal liberty and equal rights that we should aspire to live in harmony with the Islamic world. I am not a scholar on Islam, and I certainly cannot speak in great depth about the Islamic faith but based on what little I have read it seems to me that there are deep incompatibilities between a world that finds grace in freedom and a world that finds grace in submission. We should not aspire to live in harmony with the Islamic world…but we can live in peace with the Islamic world…and peace is good enough. So long as they respect our boundaries…so should we respect theirs. So long as they reach out a hand of friendship…so should we reach one out in return. But in order to have a dialog once again with the Islamic world, first we must recognize that there IS an Islamic world. That it has boundaries. That it has beliefs. That it holds those beliefs as sacred…no less sacred than we hold ours. Neither McCain nor Obama are even remotely prepared to do this.
McCain wants a wider war. A war that will only be sustainable through conscription. When he stands up and speaks he always repeats his mantra: ‘The transcendental challenge of the 21st century is radical Islam’. When he says this, I think many muslims recognize the word ‘radical’ for what it is: the qualifier meant to mislead the gullible (kind of like our experience with the phrase ‘probable cause’). And these muslims shudder at what the future holds. And I don’t think they want the war that is coming. And recently I have come to realize, to my horror, that a large swath of americans ALSO recognize that the word ‘radical’ is meant to mislead the gullible. And these americans welcome it. They want a war with Islam. They want it now, while Islam appears to be weak and we appear to be strong. God save us from these America-haters because they will surely leave our beautiful country in ruins. These people do not love America for America is a constitutional Republic not an empire and these people love empire. And they may very well get what they yearn for…a Religious War. And the wrath of God will be unleashed…and we will be consumed in the process.
Obama isn’t better, just different. You only need to look at who he chose as his chief foreign policy adviser. Samantha Power. A person just as bad or even worse than the chief neocon warmonger, Dick Cheney. Samantha Power would have US soldiers dying in every single war everywhere on the planet…for the unattainable mirage of a world without pain. As if hate could ever be eradicated from the hearts of men. From the macro to the micro…there is no room for the human heart in her precise economic equations. I saw an hour long interview that she gave on Obama’s foreign policy initiatives. For the whole hour, she never once said the word Islam. The Islamic world is on fire…but this is not even important enough to merit one word from Samantha Power (religion is the opiate of the masses after all, right?). But what else do you expect from someone who worships a Sergio Viera De Mella. A man who oversaw the carving out of a pound of flesh out of the body of the Islamic world. That pound of flesh is now called East Timor. Then this Islam-hater was sent by the farcical United Nations to carve up the second holiest land in Islam: Iraq. He was dead the moment he stepped foot in that country. Shattered and bleeding to death under the rubble of a UN building in Iraq…that’s where the Samantha Powers of the world would lead us.
Both Senators Obama and McCain miss the point of border security when they mix this issue with the issue of illegal immigration as if they were one and the same. If the immigrants could easily obtain visas to work here, they would fly here or come through a port of entry. It’s much cheaper and much safer. Once we have a realistic immigration system, illegal immigration is finished. We need to give amnesty and fix the immigration system so that we can do away with illegal immigration as soon as possible. This is necessary because the illegal immigration issue is political quicksand. To date, our politicians have been unable to generate the critical mass of moral courage necessary to tackle it. But we must tackle it. Because we can’t address the critically important issue of border security until we get the illegal immigration issue out of the way.
Border security has to do with only one thing. Protecting Americans from those who would come here, bringing catastrophic weapons, to kill us on a scale we have never experienced before. There is no security threat from people who just want to work. None whatsoever. The threat from those who would wage war on America is a life or death issue for our nation. It’s probably already too late to prevent the next attack.
The US faces many threats of varying degrees of danger in the world. Most of these threats can be classified as lethal nuisances but a few can be classified as existential threats. I think that our evolving relationship with Islam is turning into an existential threat. A nation-ending threat. That relationship is evolving towards one where there is no more room for dialog…just war. A Religious War. And those kinds of wars can last forever. And when I say Islam, I mean Islam….not ‘radical’ Islam (have we become so empty and cynical that we call people radical because they mean what they say and won’t lay down their beliefs for 20 pieces of silver?). We do not need to go to war with Islam…and certainly the american people abhor the idea…but our leaders have so little respect for the sons of muhammed that, even after 9-11, and all the suicide bombers since then who gave up all their dreams in this world for the love of their faith, our leaders still arrogantly believe that these impoverished people couldn’t possibly pose an existential threat given the awesome might of the United States. The only thing these impoverished people have on their side is their faith…but it is a faith that has stood the grueling test of time…it has raised powerful armies that brought much of the ancient world into it’s fold…it is a faith that has inspired millions of faithful to embrace death in its defense throughout the centuries. I don’t agree with much of the tenets of the Islamic faith (or any organized religion for that matter) but I do respect it’s power. We should never have so little respect for our own dearly won heritage of personal liberty and equal rights that we should aspire to live in harmony with the Islamic world. I am not a scholar on Islam, and I certainly cannot speak in great depth about the Islamic faith but based on what little I have read it seems to me that there are deep incompatibilities between a world that finds grace in freedom and a world that finds grace in submission. We should not aspire to live in harmony with the Islamic world…but we can live in peace with the Islamic world…and peace is good enough. So long as they respect our boundaries…so should we respect theirs. So long as they reach out a hand of friendship…so should we reach one out in return. But in order to have a dialog once again with the Islamic world, first we must recognize that there IS an Islamic world. That it has boundaries. That it has beliefs. That it holds those beliefs as sacred…no less sacred than we hold ours. Neither McCain nor Obama are even remotely prepared to do this.
McCain wants a wider war. A war that will only be sustainable through conscription. When he stands up and speaks he always repeats his mantra: ‘The transcendental challenge of the 21st century is radical Islam’. When he says this, I think many muslims recognize the word ‘radical’ for what it is: the qualifier meant to mislead the gullible (kind of like our experience with the phrase ‘probable cause’). And these muslims shudder at what the future holds. And I don’t think they want the war that is coming. And recently I have come to realize, to my horror, that a large swath of americans ALSO recognize that the word ‘radical’ is meant to mislead the gullible. And these americans welcome it. They want a war with Islam. They want it now, while Islam appears to be weak and we appear to be strong. God save us from these America-haters because they will surely leave our beautiful country in ruins. These people do not love America for America is a constitutional Republic not an empire and these people love empire. And they may very well get what they yearn for…a Religious War. And the wrath of God will be unleashed…and we will be consumed in the process.
Obama isn’t better, just different. You only need to look at who he chose as his chief foreign policy adviser. Samantha Power. A person just as bad or even worse than the chief neocon warmonger, Dick Cheney. Samantha Power would have US soldiers dying in every single war everywhere on the planet…for the unattainable mirage of a world without pain. As if hate could ever be eradicated from the hearts of men. From the macro to the micro…there is no room for the human heart in her precise economic equations. I saw an hour long interview that she gave on Obama’s foreign policy initiatives. For the whole hour, she never once said the word Islam. The Islamic world is on fire…but this is not even important enough to merit one word from Samantha Power (religion is the opiate of the masses after all, right?). But what else do you expect from someone who worships a Sergio Viera De Mella. A man who oversaw the carving out of a pound of flesh out of the body of the Islamic world. That pound of flesh is now called East Timor. Then this Islam-hater was sent by the farcical United Nations to carve up the second holiest land in Islam: Iraq. He was dead the moment he stepped foot in that country. Shattered and bleeding to death under the rubble of a UN building in Iraq…that’s where the Samantha Powers of the world would lead us.
The cold war is over. Religion is alive again. It is on the move again. We may deny it…but it will not be denied.
Based on your post above, I hope Mexicans never take up Islam, but then the border would be secured overnight!
I will say I do appreciate this comparing and contrasting of Obama’s and McCain’s views on immigration. I’ve seen this kind of info scattered about in many articles, but it is nice to see it all in one place to directly be able to view the differences between the two. And in my own personal view – there are things that each say that I like, and things that each say that I don’t like. That is why I’m on the fence between Obama and McCain.
Also, I feel that we must have border security before any amnesty deal. If not, what’s to stop people from continuing to come in here illegally even after amnesty is passed?
Border security isn’t impossible. In fact, I have a little insight into it as there is a proposal for the system I work on currently used by the military, to be deployed for use by the border patrol. It would greatly aid border security and in disseminating information to the border patrol from reconnaisance aircraft in real time. There doesn’t necessarily have to be a PHYSICAL fence – there are other alternatives, which is what this one proposal is about – that the system I work on would potentially be used for.
Anyway, I feel there can’t be an amnesty deal before we address border security first. And I hear the arguments it is impossible to achieve, but that isn’t necessarily true – as long as we get away from the idea of a physical fence stretching all miles of the border between us and Mexico.
One of these tools will be elected (unless McCain keels over, or Hillary shoots Obama). And I look forward to BITTERLY opposing and helping to kill any efforts that flirt with amnesty.
It’s obvious to me, if not to everyone here, that Obama’s ostensible agenda, particularly health care reform, cannot really be undertaken unless and until he untangles it from the issue of illegal aliens receiving benefits. People won’t pay for benefits for illegals.
We may be stuck with these two sell-outs but we can and we will make amnesty the third rail of American politics.
In the end, you’ll probably wish you took the McCain-Kennedy plan that was previously offered.
anon said:
This is en example of the mindset that will lead to disaster for our country. This person speaks of border security as if illegal immigration of workers is actually some kind of threat. Who the hell cares if we have a few undocumented workers here when the life of our nation is at stake?
This person speaks of securing the border as if we had all the time in the world. As if we can adopt a leisurely pace and endlessly debate the issue in our spare time. As if there aren’t enemies planning devastating attacks to bring us to our knees. This person has learned nothing from 9-11. In our stupidity and arrogance, we are going to war with Islam. They cannot be deterred like we deterred the Soviets.
There will be no immigration reform untill the borders are secured. Any plan not recognizing that will be quashed. Every time. And, quite frankly, all the politicians know this. They can chant all the rhetoric they want, but deep down, it’s all about the money and the votes and keeping things status quo will keep the money and votes flowing.
There will be no immigration reform because there will be no real plan for border security. Just half-hearted attempts to appease. The battle is in the trenches. Those that are adversly affected against those that aren’t.
The battle is local. Sanctuary cities will continue to draw illegal aliens and cities containing populaces fed up with the ill effects will continue to elect officials that promise to confront the problem. The rhetoric will continue to fly from both sides, but when the chips fall I believe localties that welcome illegals will get them and those that don’t will see them leave.
Mando said:
Dismiss this idiot. There is no battle with immigrants. We’re lucky to have them. The real battle is against America-haters like Mando, who would put the life of our nation at risk for the sake of winning his private war against lawnmowers, daylaborers, and construction workers.
Mackie,
Bravo and Amen to all your posts and points. Mackie for Virginia Senate!
“Dismiss this idiot. There is no battle with immigrants. We’re lucky to have them. The real battle is against America-haters like Mando, who would put the life of our nation at risk for the sake of winning his private war against lawnmowers, daylaborers, and construction workers.”
Are you kidding me? Reading comprehension wasn’t one of your better subjects was it?
Mackie – I very much disagree to your post in response to my post. And apparently you say I’ve learned nothing from 9-11. You are just like a a lot of other posters on this board – who engage in personal attacks, over the top rhetoric, etc.
Actually, I should not even give your post any dignify for trying to rebut your personal attack on me. Typical of some of the extremists on this board – try to engage in a meaningful debate, make a couple of posts, and get personally attacked. A very sad commentary on the state of this blog, and of our society in general if we can’t have a meaningful debate and rapidly sink to personal attacks.
Mackie and Twinad, what happened to debate and listening to the viewpoints of others? You two make this place sound like the other side. Please have at least an appearance of civility if you disagree with the writer.
And you don’t even know me, so how can you make a sweeping statement such as ” This person has learned nothing from 9-11″! I find that distasteful, offensive, and I’ve already wasted too much time on something that shows me there can be no good debate/dialog with some posters on this blog (not to say ALL – I’ve found some moderates on the other side that I can engage in thoughtful debate in – but you appear not to be one of them and part of the “extremist” group).
Mando – apparently this is one of those posters we should ignore, who right away stoops so low as to engage in personal attacks, when several of us just try to engage in a thoughtful debate. As I said, a sad commentary on the state of things…
TWINAD -how you can once again defend personal attacks, and say “BRAVO” to those kinds of posts, is beyond comprehension.
LuckyDuck – you said it more eloquently than I could have – I wish I had read your post. Yes, why can’t we engage in a CIVIL DEBATE on things we disagree on. But for a certain subset of posters here (not just in this thread but others) they like to engage in personal attacks, label people with hateful terms such as Nazi, “Greg supporters” etc. And I then see their fellow posters jump up and defend such posts. Crazy! But again, I have found a few people on the other side on this blog that I can engage in a thoughtful debate, but this person is obviously not one of them. If after I make just one post and they reply and right away stoop to a personal attack, there’s just no hope for any kind of civil discourse with that person.
“Mando – apparently this is one of those posters we should ignore, who right away stoops so low as to engage in personal attacks, when several of us just try to engage in a thoughtful debate. As I said, a sad commentary on the state of things…”
It’s the way of forums. There’s always been and will always be the Mackies of the internet. Anytime I see a HUGE two-post diatribe my ego-detectors go off. As to why they feel a need to engage in the personal attacks, I haven’t a clue. My guess is someone doesn’t get enough “respect” in real life. I didn’t even read his rant. I was commenting on Alanna’s blog entry.
And of course I should say to you, LuckyDuck – that you are one of those I count as people I have exchanged civil discourse with. I appreciate your trying to point certain posters here on this blog in the right direction (civil debate), and hope your efforts succeed. We can agree to disagree, but at least we can respect each other’s opinion. Otherwise we’re not going to solve any problems here and it is just a waste of time to be posting on this blog. Fortunately, and I’ll say it again, I’ve been persuaded that there are several people here who disagree with me, but have engaged in very good dialog, and I’ve learned a lot from going back and forth again. But once someone engages in a personal attack, my brain wants to tune them out and any words springing forth from them in their posts.
Taking some inspiration from Not Me, Bubba, I hereby withdraw my term of “Nova Nativist Taliban” and replace it with Dominionist Militia.
Taliban in Arabic roughly means the “Two Students” and though there are some simular conotations between the Taliban in Afganistan and the Vision of Help Save Manassass (as currently stands under the likes of Greg Letiecq), “Taliban” is not a term in the English Lexicon, and it’s not worth coining.
“Nativist” is good, but the real Natives of this area have mostly been wiped out by our ancestors (at least the natives that did not wipe out out eachother) Anyway Greg, not really being a true Native to this place cannot be classified as a Nativist.
Dominionism on the other hand is a very proper term for what these people want. A place where all the inhabitants must assimulate to code of culture, a code that is written by the “Pure Leaders” or shall we say the “Pure Americans.”
To what extent they will follow the path toward being domestic terrorists to obtain their Dogmatic vision for the area, the future will tell. Nothing in Mondo’s comments leads me to deny the Greg and his Dominionist Militia are beyond the taking up of arms against the future Government of the USA to fulfill thier vision of a “Pure American” future.
Investing in a War on the Poor is an investment in your own enevitable ruin.
Mando – I realize a huge problem with forums is they aren’t “face to face” and people say things they wouldn’t say if they were debating someone face to face.
Someone (Elena?) made a very good point in a separate thread that she tries to write her posts in a way that she would not be afraid to say what she writes to that person if she was speaking face to face with them. I agreed with her at the time and still agree. AND, I think no one has ever seen me call someone names, demean them, or whatever in any way. Others on here however, when they have no fear for calling someone they never met racist, a Nazi, a “Greg clone”, or in this particular case insinuating I’ve learned nothing from 9-11 – I doubt they follow Elena’s rule, and it might be good of them to think about that. However, I view them as the “extremists” on this board, which once again I say likes to think of itself as being above the fray, or not like BVBL, when at times some of the posters here are just as vile as those on BVBL! I’ve beaten this horse to death actually, but it was rather astounding to me how we were both attacked, and then the poster was defended by another poster, who I’ve seen before defend posts where people (including me) were called hateful terms like Nazis, Holocaust supporters, and other things! It is more astounding to me that people jump to the defense of these kinds of posts, then the fact that those posts exist in the first place! But LuckyDuck admonished both posters in a more eloquent way than I ever could have, so I’ll leave it at that, and hope we can return to a civil debate on this topic.
“Tactic #88:
“When a “Trouble User is posting information that may discredit you attempt to “Marginalize” the Trouble User as a “Radical,” “Insane” and as “Not worth responding to.” Be sure to point out that the Trouble User is responsible for “Barring logical dialog through their radical inflamitory talk” this will help to further marginalize the Trouble User in the eyes of the other users and make you seem like the victim of personal attack.”
Excerpt from the universal book on avoiding exposure…
I consider any group that tries to take away the individual liberties of another as a personal enemy.
Be it Alqaeda, Be it La Raza, Be it Help Save Manassass (lead by Greg Letiecq)
I will not stand for Individual Liberty to be denied.
anon and Mando,
You can call me whatever you’d like. I really don’t mind. I’m not concerned with etiquette. If you are, that’s fine, but could you please comment about it once instead of repeating the etiquette theme for the last 15 posts.
My first post was long because I had something multifaceted that I wanted to say that was really important to me. Our nation is missing the whole point when it comes to the border security issue. We’re being misled into disaster by those who wrap themselves in the American flag.
@rod2155
Your infatuation with labels is truly impressive.
Mackie – fine – but immediately labelling someone as “This person has learned nothing from 9-11″ was truly a low thing to do, and undeserved. If you aren’t concerned with etiquette, fine – then it appears to me you aren’t interested in civil discourse. I’m done debating with you.
And we are beating this issue to death as it keeps resurfacing, and some of find this labeling of people – unprovoked – to be what makes useful debate on this board at times nearly impossible. The signal to noise ratio at times is rather infinitesimal, in my opinion because of personal attacks like these. Others of course may disagree. After awhile, it will seem pointless to engage in any debate, if all that happens is personal attacks result. THAT IS THE POINT WE ARE TRYING TO MAKE. As well as those who say this board is not like BVBL. Funny!
Mando, 5. June 2008, 11:01
@rod2155
Your infatuation with labels is truly impressive.
———————————————————
Every product needs a label, including the products of ignorance….
Thanks, Mackie for the thoughtful, informative posts. It is unfortunate that some do not like to hear the truth.
Whether these guys/gals like it or not immigration reform will come, the sooner the better. If they consider it amnesty then so be it.
Marie: you miss the point entirely – I’m not arguing that immigration reform won’t come. But to call posts “thoughtful/informative” when they sling mud and make vile accusations, that’s incredible. The poster has no clue about me and what I even do for a living, and whether or not “I’d have learned anything from 9/11” or not. Yes, that sure is a thoughtful/informative comment. I congratulate you on proving my point – at times this board is no better than BVBL, thanks to a vocal subset of posters here. You want meaningful debate? You can’t have it when mud is slinged like that.
Marie,
I agree. I do not see Mackie’s posts as “attacking” anyone just because he/she does not agree with their viewpoint.
From Mackie’s post to Anon: “This is en example of the mindset that will lead to disaster for our country. This person speaks of border security as if illegal immigration of workers is actually some kind of threat” and “This person speaks of securing the border as if we had all the time in the world. As if we can adopt a leisurely pace and endlessly debate the issue in our spare time. As if there aren’t enemies planning devastating attacks to bring us to our knees. This person has learned nothing from 9-11.”
These are personal attacks?!!! I think that is just a ridiculous statement. Mackie has well thought out views that are rational and realistic. Because you don’t agree doesn’t mean Mackie is attacking you. For Pete’s sake.
“This person has learned nothing from 9-11”. That’s not a personal attack? And in Mackie’s other post she called Mando an idiot. That’s not a personal attack? You must have blinders on.
OK, I’ll tell you that you have learned nothing from 9-11 when I don’t know you from Adam, and make that judgement on the basis of ONE post, and see how you feel. I saw NOTHING in my comment that would provoke someone to say “that person has learned nothing from 9-11”. The post was addressed to me, so it was clear who Makie was talking to.
Forget it, I can see it is not worth having a debate when idiotic, thoughtless statements like the above are made.
From another post that you apparently find “well thought out” and not being a personal attack:
“Dismiss this idiot. There is no battle with immigrants. We’re lucky to have them. The real battle is against America-haters like Mando, who would put the life of our nation at risk for the sake of winning his private war against lawnmowers, daylaborers, and construction workers.”
This was in response to a post by Mando.
I rest my case.
And I agree with the entire statement by Mackie you quoted above. In your last post you said “idiotic, thoughtless statements”, I guess you are now attacking? You seem a bit too sensitive.
“That person has learned nothing from 9-11” does not seem hateful or like a personal attack to me. I’m sorry, but it just doesn’t. It is Mackie’s observation of your opinion. The person is not calling you a f)**@ as(0#&. That would be a personal attack and uncalled for. I do agree calling someone an “idiot” is not very nice and that is why I did not respond to Mando even though I feel the same way as Mackie does about Mando. The real content of Mackie’s post above is NOT about the “idiot”, it’s about portraying the lawnmowers and construction workers as heathens.
@ rod2155
Seriously – can you not see your own hypocracy?
@anon
It’s really pointless.
The vitriol here is amazing. To be called an America hater has to be the coupe de grace. A fine bunch of posters this blog has. They can have their circle jerk back.
EVERYONE needs to take a break and THINK 🙂 put the shoe on the other foot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gshcbpbJDPo
posted by Red dawn
All of the regulars here (kgotthardt and Mackie in particular) are quick to harass and call others names the minute that someone challenges their beliefs or asks them to explain their comments. And the names that they call – Nazi, Racist, Bigot, Redneck, ad nauseum – show their true side – they don’t have the brain power to engage in a debate without making it personal. Have I attacked in the past? Yes – but again, it was out of frustration from not getting a straight answer from the most outspoken posters. At least at BVBL I’m not called a racist or bigot – I’m answered with debate, not slurs.
Twinad, below is the entire post of Mackie’s…what has Mando said that justifies being called an idiot? If you disagree with his/her concept, fine, then tell us why. But for Mackie to call Mando an idiot for what is written below and you supporting it brims with ignorance. Take the high road and discuss – point and counterpoint. But the really clueless calls names like a 14 yr old when they have no counterpoint.
PS…I don’t know who Mando or Mackie are but if we can’t discuss the issues and solutions here, how do we expect anyone else to do it anywhere?
Mando said:
There will be no immigration reform untill the borders are secured. Any plan not recognizing that will be quashed. Every time. And, quite frankly, all the politicians know this. They can chant all the rhetoric they want, but deep down, it’s all about the money and the votes and keeping things status quo will keep the money and votes flowing.
There will be no immigration reform because there will be no real plan for border security. Just half-hearted attempts to appease. The battle is in the trenches. Those that are adversly affected against those that aren’t.
The battle is local. Sanctuary cities will continue to draw illegal aliens and cities containing populaces fed up with the ill effects will continue to elect officials that promise to confront the problem. The rhetoric will continue to fly from both sides, but when the chips fall I believe localties that welcome illegals will get them and those that don’t will see them leave.
MACKIE SAID>>>>
Dismiss this idiot. There is no battle with immigrants. We’re lucky to have them. The real battle is against America-haters like Mando, who would put the life of our nation at risk for the sake of winning his private war against lawnmowers, daylaborers, and construction workers.
Mackie-
You have expressed a very thought provoking point of view, and a very dire outlook for the future. Can you outline a couple of concrete steps, say for a presidential agenda, in order to thrwart the pending doom? I am asking about both reforming our immigration system, and also about the Iraq war. In other words, if you were president what would you do?
@ Mando
I see a bunch of childish individuals who cannot stand the taste of their own medicine. You’ve worked so hard to make “AnchorBaby” “Wetback” “Invaders” “Parasites” “Vermins” etc. into accecptable terms for classifying human beings but when it comes to defining the immoral character of you own ideals and lifestyle, you cry that it’s an outragious personal attack.
It’s not Hypocracy, it’s called harsh reflection. I force you to see yourself in the mirror of your own jingoistic attacks and you naturally feel oppressed. Now the question is can you bring yourself to admit that perhaps your Help Save organizations are working to demonize a group of people based on manufactured evidence and spin?
If you want to have a real logical debate then I have one simple question to start us off on the road, Classification and games behind us, This is an Andalusian Covenenter talking to a member of Help Save Manassass….
Are latinos in general a 3rd world race?
Lucky Duck,
I am super swamped at work and have had only minimal time to see what’s going on over here. I do not have the time right now do go through point by point on what I disagree with, but when I do, I do so. Essentially, Mando is talking about a “battle in the trenches”. Battle against lawnmowers?! Come on! I am also making the leap that Mando is short for “Commando” battling lawnmowers and construction workers. Mackie’s point is that we should be focusing on battling the “real” threats to our country that he/she outlined quite well. Sorry I can’t go into more detail, but that is what I am referring to as idiotic.
I think this is what we need to battle:
http://www.examiner.com/a-1423820~Lanier_plans_to_seal_off_rough__hoods_in_latest_effort_to_stop_wave_of_violence.html
And this is how we need to battle it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRk3awO1Jq0
Our immigration laws are in place for real reasons – none of which are to be a nation of elitists or racists as some may charge. The main reasons are national security and population control. Illegal Immigration costs are country billions of dollars each year. Illegal Immigration is wrong. Those who come to this country illegally are breaking the law. Why would we want to grant amnesty to law breakers? The final contestants on Presidential Idol better be prepared to pump up the conversation on Illegal Immigration as it sits at the core of many of the challenges we as a nation face – troubled economies, health-care and national security. And “we the people” can do our part – stop supporting those companies that serve as a magnet for this growing epidemic- those that employ undocumented workers. If you don’t see the LegalEmployer.com seal on a business – don’t do business with them or ask them where their seal and their loyalty are?
Ok TWINAD, I understand. Thank you. I hope your day goes easier at work.
Mando – I agree. Quite frankly, I think some posters here just don’t want to hear the other side, and kind of just want to have a meaningless debate among themselves. What fun is a debate where everyone agrees with one another? But as it has descended into personal attacks here – I have to agree with you – at least in THIS thread it is pointless to continue. At times I’m ready to write off this whole blog as pointless but then I see some moderate posters who while I disagree with them, I’ve found we can have a civil debate and even find some points that we agree on (which I’m sure will shock, offend, and even disappoint some of the extremists here). But then I’m also shocked how quickly some come to defend those kinds of posts – and seem to have blinders on. Oh well.
LuckyDuck – I see once again you try to shed some light on the over the top rhetoric, as you’ve done a couple of times in the past. I thank you for doing that, as you’ve done in other threads that have degenerated in a similar fashion. I’m just seeing a pattern here, and it is a little sad. I’d like to take part in the debate, but too many threads keep degenerating to these personal attacks. However, a few posters are so far what’s keeping me here, as I’ve found I can engage in a discussion with them and we each learn from each other. On this thread, I find absolutely ZERO evidence of that.
No Twinad – someone telling me I have not learned anything from 9-11 – I do find offensive. And I’ve seen you and others defend calling people Nazi’s, “holocaust enablers”, Greg clones, etc. It is kind of tiresome. In fact on another thread someone attacked my wife’s ethnicity and other people who came to the USA in the same way she did, and several people seemed to think that was perfectly fine. Sort of interesting, coming from a blog that claims to be “pro-immigrant”.
That is why, I’m a little fed up with the personal attacks. If this had been the first instance, I’d say fine. But NOTHING I wrote in my first post on this thread merits the response “This person did not learn anything from 9-11”. If you can’t see that, then again, I say you have blinders on and/or some illogical reason to jump to the defense of someone who calls people idiots and tells them they are ignorant, which is essentially what Mackie was telling me. Then you say that you didn’t have the time to read everything when you jumped to Mackie’s defense on the attack on Mando. Interesting.
Anon,
Never said I didn’t have time to read everything, read everything, don’t have time to respond in a novel length format today or at all this week so far.
Thanks, Lucky Duck.
And when you are attacking someone – it is generally considered extra poor form to dehumanize them as saying “This person…” which is what was said repeatedly by Mackie in the response to my post. Mackie even put words in my mouth such as nice phrases like “This person speaks of securing the border as if we had all the time in the world.”
I invite you to read my original post and read the response, and if you still think such a response was warranted, then I see no use in continuing this “debate” which I intentionally put in quotes. My post had nothing hateful in it, but what came back was extremely hateful in tone. It is not my definition of a civil debate. And the very posters who complain most vehemently about the posts on BVBL are the posters who stoop to name calling and spouting hateful terms on this blog and have no qualms about labeling someone as a bunch of hateful terms when they disagree with their position on the debate. That’s why I find there to be a lot of hypocrisy here, and I get tired of the claims that this blog is not like the other blog in terms of hatred, fear mongering, etc. etc. I really wonder if it is worth my staying here. Again, they even pulled my wife into the debate and said a bunch of insulting things about people like her. Every time I think I’m finding some good discourse on here, we fall back to this other level of discourse. One step forward, two steps back, and I just see a rather downhill slide. Maybe this blog will be a lot happier place if everyone just sits around agreeing with one another, and then indeed as you won’t be doing any mud-slinging – you’ll be able to claim that yes, this board is above the fray and not at all like BVBL as I’ve seen claimed many many times on here!
To You: Wish, 5. June 2008, 13:27
LMAOOOOOOOOO I dont see ANY of your posts over there..Unless you are using a different personality..
TWINAD – I took your comment “I am super swamped at work and have had only minimal time to see what’s going on over here.” to mean that you didn’t have time to read everything in this thread. I interpreted the word “see” as “read” and that might have been incorrect to make that interpretation. That’s how I arrived at the statement I made about it seeming like you were not getting the full picture on the original posts and the responses that generated all this controversy. If indeed you read the original posts and the responses, then I retract that statement.