321 Thoughts to “Come out to “economic party” number 4!”
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- The Jeffersoniad
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Mackie,
I am picking up what you are laying down but I have to say I do not see it a ethNic cleansing. I see it as ethic cleansing for control and……control of what????? That is the big picture question that I have and it all comes down to money, the almighty ‘evil’
A PW County Resident:
For someone who is calling for a substantial debate…your post is pretty short on substance. Instead of criticizing the names used to illuminate what is happening, try talking about the issues.
–
Red Dawn:
I think some people might have been motivated by financial concerns, i.e.: taxes, social services, declining home values, etc.
But I don’t think that this is enough to cobble together enough people to engage in wholesale Ethnic Cleansing of a whole community. That requires something more.
It requires the belief that these immigrants are simply inferior. Oh, it’s ok to have a few here and there, but we can’t let them become a majority.
Hey, are we gonna have karaoke at this party? I love to watch karaoke.
A PW County Resident,
You know, I have no idea what you are talking about. I don’t think I take out after people. In fact, most people who know me both cyberly and in person say I am pretty mainstream and moderate.
So now you have my full attention. I am not with unlimited patience however. What is it exactly that you think I have done to you?
Meanwhile, a few suggestions: (too bad you didn’t get Elena, she is far more patient than I am.) Email Alanna yourself. Tell her what she can do to improve her blog so it suits you better. What does Kgott have to do with any of this and why was she emailing me about you? You will have to give me details.
If you are having a hard time with this blog and want to discuss immigration issues, by all means try bvbl. Perhaps their style will be more to your liking.
Meanwhile, don’t forget to let me know what I have done to you.
Moon-howler
Well, it would seem that, with people like Mackie over here, y’all have NOTHING over the worst of the intolerant hatemongers who might occasionally post comments over at BVBL. You folks have much more in common with Greg than you might think. What you don’t seem to recognize is that people like Mackie, misusing terms such as “ethnic cleansing,” on BOTH sides of an issue are very much responsible for persuading people that there is no reasonable compromise, or middle ground, to be reached.
We have people with very strong opinions here. The difference is, Mackie doesn’t speak for everyone, nor does he attempt to make anyone think he does. He certainly isn’t the only one with strong opinions. Conversely, How many people do you see jumping on the ethnic cleansing band wagon?
Actually, some folks here probably do have much in common with Greg. You can read what they say. We consider them regulars. Notice they haven’t disappeared like many people did over on bvbl. That is the real difference, AWCheney. Lots of people say things here that the rank and file blog contributor doesn’t care much for. They don’t disappear because the ‘management’ doesn’t like what they have said. We have a variety of opinions here.
But, as usual, thanks for your contribution. Your opinion is valued.
I think any time people square off in different corners, it is harder to come to an agreement or to find a middle ground.
Lucky Duck, you have a point, but let’s put this in perspective for a minute:
Mackie’s rhetoric has hurt some feelings. Greg Letiecq and Robert Duecaster’s rhetoric has hurt the lives and livelihoods of an entire county, as well of those of our children. There is a difference.
I do grant you that the ethnic cleansing analogy is a harsh one (I too responded with eyebrows raised above). “Ethnic cleansing” connotes mass murder, and thus even with Mackie’s “bloodless” modification, it is a rather extreme analogy. Those who see no moral ambiguity in targeting a specific race or class of people for removal, by violence or by “bloodless” intimidation, simply CANNOT be reached in this way. Reading this, they feel they are being attacked and dig an even deeper hole in the sand.
But I actually see common ground between Mackie and Lucky Duck.
It is demonstrably true from the public record, as Lucky Duck seems to be acknowledging, that the most vocal members of Help Save Manassas were motivated by sort of sentiment that has led to ethnic cleansing. This is disturbing, and I would argue, even more disturbing than Mackie’s harsh language because of the consequences that have befallen us all. I’ll bet Lucky Duck would be with me on that.
Let’s face it, “ethnic” was the primary factor in what happened here in 2007. If all of the undocumented immigrants in certain neighborhoods in PWC were Caucasian … there would have been no Help Save Manassas, no invitation for the Anti-Immigrant Lobbyists to meddle here, no political opportunism on the part of the state and county GOP, and no initiative to enlist our police force in frightening certain people away.
A long time ago, Elena posted an excellent observation that there are ZERO episodes in the course of human history where we can look back and say with certainlty, “Hey, the people who targeted X ethnic minority were right about that one.” Without exception, history looks back on times such as these with shame and with judgment. I have no doubt that Prince William County 2007 will go down as one of those times.
To compare it to “ethnic cleansing” is extreme. And, as Lucky Duck rightly points out, extreme rhetoric has been used on both sides. But on one side, extreme rhetoric has led to extreme legislative action taken by our Board of County Supervisors, leading to extremely negative economic and cultural ramifications that are affecting everyone, not just those who were agitated and those who were targeted.
Meanwhile, Mackie’s blog posts have led to further entrenchment. This, while regrettable, amounts to small potatoes.
AWCheney,
The self-evident and plain-as-the-nose-on-your-face difference between this blog and BVBL is that you actually have to defend your opinions on this blog, rather than counting on the Blog-Owner to cyber-deport your opponents.
It’s curious that when you actually find a forum where the game isn’t rigged…where the referee hasn’t already decided who is going to win…and you’re required to debate on merit…your defense is to avoid substance and cling to name-calling. At the risk of plaigerizing a little old lady I’m compelled to ask the question ‘Wheres the beef???’
Am I a hatemonger? Yes. It is not hate that is evil. It is the reason why you hate. There is virtue to be found in righteous anger.
I hate tyranny. I love freedom. Tyranny will never die…it just changes shape. Freedom can die…if we let it.
Mackie, you are unstoppable! There is such a thing as righteous anger indeed.
AWCheney, it is a bit cowardly to compare the Gospel Greg sewer to this blog and complain that there is a competition of ideas here whereas you don’t have to contend with as much on the other. I’m not saying you should stay where the exchanges are censored and dumb/racist ideas are insulated from cross examination. But when you do post here, maybe you could come up with a more evolved angle on refuting Mackie’s jarring but valid analogy.
Finally…
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080615214802.2e0eis17&show_article=1
Perhaps, WHWN, you should read my comment more carefully. I point out that hatemongering from people “on BOTH sides of an issue are very much responsible for persuading people that there is no reasonable compromise, or middle ground, to be reached.” It has no purpose in a debate, regardless of where one might stand on an issue.
Regarding your charge that I am “cowardly,” that’s rather disingenuous given that I post my comments freely under my own name and am known (at least at BVBL) for castigating those on the pro-resolution side of the issue just as quickly when they stoop to hatemongering. I see little of that here…you are all, with few exceptions, rather quick to validate the extreme when it suits you, as you did in your comment at 1:14 as well as your last comment (…”maybe you could come up with a more evolved angle on refuting Mackie’s jarring but valid analogy”). Consider the hypocrisy of your remarks…equating “ethnic cleansing” in any form with the current debate is hardly the product of an evolved mind.
And Mackie, it would seem that you have taken your lessons in defining name-calling from a certain fellow who also posts under his own name…James (aka Jimmy) Young. I have called no one names on this blog, but I am very much the exception it would seem, as pointed out very aptly by A Prince William County Resident.
Hey,
They’re making a movie about Greg Letiecq’s private war! I managed to get ahold of a clip of the final battle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTP8RvUW4ac&feature=related
Well, it would seem that, with people like Mackie over here, y’all have NOTHING over the worst of the intolerant hatemongers who might occasionally post comments over at BVBL. You folks have much more in common with Greg than you might think. What you don’t seem to recognize is that people like Mackie, misusing terms such as “ethnic cleansing,” on BOTH sides of an issue are very much responsible for persuading people that there is no reasonable compromise, or middle ground, to be reached.
BIg Brush alert!!!!
AWCheney, so is everyone who disagrees with you an extremist? (This has become a tiresome ploy used by political parties/activists to gain the votes of those who won’t dig into issues but prefer sound bites.) I know that most of the BVBL regulars -and I’d include you in this group – find MWB to be extreme. Are you now trying to paint the posters here with your same wide brush?
I find most people here to be fairly middle-of-the-road, but educated residents of the County. Many don’t like the way the immigration (or quality of life) issue was co-opted by HSM. It eliminated discussion by the vast middle ground before there was a chance to address the issues. Wham! Bam! We had an Immigration Resolution. No discussion by the majority necessary. Score one for the far-right wing of the local Republican Party!
“Ethnic cleansing” may seem a harsh term, but there’s been a noticeable drop in one ethnicity in our County.
A PW County Resident, exactly what problems are you looking to have addressed. You come here sporadically and complain about lack of solutions. You were here when a thread devoted to solutions was active. Did you read it? Are you objecting to that thread not being stuck on the top of the page? A link to government sites that deal with overcrowding, police, and zoning issues is referenced at the top. What are your solutions?
AWCheney, I agree with you, Mackie does remind me of the worst of BVBL, just the other side of the issue.
Mackie, 16. June 2008, 1:37
AWCheney,
The self-evident and plain-as-the-nose-on-your-face difference between this blog and BVBL is that you actually have to defend your opinions on this blog, rather than counting on the Blog-Owner to cyber-deport your opponents.
_____________________________________________________________________
AMEN.
Thank you Dignidad…I’m relieved to see that SOMEONE here is capable of discerning the actual meaning conveyed in a comment rather than only their own version of it.
Censored, would that “big brush” be the same one with which you and some others here perpetually paint those of us who happen to regularly comment at BVBL? My “brush” was actually quite specifically painting only Mackie, and people like him on both sides of the issue, as well as those who validate such terms as “ethnic cleansing” in a debate which has already grown far too volatile. From your comment, am I to assume you are one of those who feel “painted?”
Looks like the Ethnic Cleansing continues to spread. Oklahoma, PWC, now Florida Panhandle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM-1MbOJFjI
Ahh…it must be just coincidence, call it ‘probable cause’, that hispanics keep getting rounded up like cattle.
In the words of the white haired piece of excrement in the video ‘They weren’t the local good old boys’. Where does excrement belong? I humbly recommend it be flushed down the toilet.
The HSM types keep cutting us…and we are bleeding but you can’t see it with your eyes. They think we have forgotten the faces of our parents. But we remember the sacrifices of our beautiful fathers and mothers. We saw the tears they shed for us. We remember how they held us when we cried and we remember how we held them when they leaned on us to explain the language they couldn’t understand. We remember how they sang to us in their beautiful tongue. We hold these memories close to our hearts. We will never let them go.
They think they can take the honor and dignity of our beautiful mothers and fathers and toss it in the dust like so much refuse. Well, pain is universal. You too can bleed. We will show you.
AWCheney, I apologize for the word “cowardly.” I commend you for posting under your own name when there are so many people in PWC who are afraid to participate directly in our democratic process for fear of retaliation. People like you and Elena are precious indeed, and I will be more respectful to you heretofore.
I do find merit in the “ethnic cleansing” analogy, even though I balked at first and, if you check out the thread, questioned whether it was appropriate here (after all we’re just talking about helping out a guy’s business, so what if he IS from El Salvador originally, he’s an American now). I think Mackie, who I believe is Hispanic, took exception to someone whining about these parties helping out too many “Mexican” businesses, which I found kind of offensive also.
I don’t agree with your comparison of Mackie to Greg Letiecq, simply because Mackie is not an elected official and he does not have the power of an elected official, and he has not succeeded in driving our county’s public policy nor its police directive, and he has not used hate, lies, and manipulation to do so. I was wrong to say it was “cowardly” to respond to Mackie’s “ethnic cleansing” analogy with the Greg Letiecq analogy. But I do feel that it is obtuse and skirts the issue.
Several people on this thread have made strong arguments for the validity of the analogy. If you aim to refute them, do so by focusing more specifically. I would give the same advice to Mackie if you pointed out that our schools are less crowded post Immigration Resolution and Mackie responded by comparing you to Dennis Leary.
Both your analogy and Mackie’s analogy are valid. They are fair game. And neither is cowardly (least of all yours since Cheney is your real name!). They both facilitate discussion. I prefer Mackie’s because it provoked a new discussion. And I chaffed at yours because it brought back an old one.
“You too can bleed. We will show you.”
That sounds very much like a base, physical threat Mackie. Given from whom it issues, I’m not at all surprised.
WhyHereWhyNow, if you reread my comment you will see that the “You folks have much more in common with Greg than you might think” portion of my comment was an observation, not an analogy. I was merely pointing out that Greg has his own “Mackies” to deal with…including Mackie (aka The Truth, among other pseudonyms), as well as others on HIS (Greg’s) side of the issue who have gotten themselves moderated and/or chastised on the blog.
AWCheney,
If I was to make a base, physical threat you would be left with no doubt about it.
I have no doubt, Mackie.
WHWN, I don’t believe the analogy with ethnic cleansing is valid – you have your opinion as is your right and I have mine, which is my right. Not one person of any decent has been rounded up (like cattle according to Mackie), not one person has been physically forced to leave (unless they were not here legally and ultimately it is the federal government that does ALL deportations), not one person has been physically harmed by any representative of the government. Hardly a legitimate comparsion to Darfur and the Balkans – where true ethnic cleansing took place. Where are the civil rights complaints? Where are the lawsuits? None, not one. And this is coming from a person who does not support the resolution.
While our resolution clearly approached the illegal immigration problem in the wrong way, the issue of illegal immigration is a vaild concern to be addressed by citizens and government.
Mackie, you obviously have your viewpoint on illegal immigration and again, that is your right. But it is my right to realize that everyone who comes here illegally (again – I would too if necessary for my family) has to know that there are consequences for their actions and those consequences can be emotionally and financially painful. No one individual can decide to enter another nation and expect to be able to stay without the permission of that government and its people – that’s why we have an immigration system. Yes, its outmoded and in need of repair, but so is the IRS we all pay taxes because we know there are consequences for not doing so. It is NOT tyranny for a community to expect people to follow the laws of its society, it IS incumbent upon those joining the community to learn the laws, mores and assimilation aspects of the society they wish to join.
So take your “bleeding threats” away, you win no support in the majority. If you can’t compromise than you’ll fight a long, lonely and ultimately losing battle. America will never vote for open borders and open amnesty, a pathway, yes, but not blanket amnesty. You’ll never win that battle. And isn’t that long fight and battle the reason your forebearers came here in the first place? It was for mine, for religious rights and economic reasons.
If you and I do not agree on the manner in which government acts, then we change it through the same process that the HSM people used – approach your elected officials and get changed. But just as we are now objecting to the approach of HSM with our officials, your “my way or no way” attitude is the mirror image of HSM.
AWCheney,
You lack many things AWCheney.
Yes, AWCheney, point taken. It still doesn’t provide us with an argument against Mackie’s analogy, but I accept the obvious fact that you don’t like the analogy and we can leave it at that.
I find Mackie’ posts to be poetic and heartfelt. He/she is one of the few voices on here who is authentically presenting the immigrant perspective. He/she is right that there is reason to be angry.
I hope that the word bleed is another use of imagery on Mackie’s part (that is how I interpreted it, since he/she sites no examples of violence when he uses the imagery the first time). We are indeed bleeding in Prince William County … all of us are, and that is my main point if I have any single point to make on this blog. We are bleeding economically and culturally because we are losing good, productive, law-abiding people to other localities in this region, all of whom will benefit during the economic recovery while we continue to suffer. (By the way, suffer is not intended as physical suffering.)
Mackie, as you can see, your passion is effective. You’ve taken over this thread for the most part, and forced us to consider an uncomfortable but logical analogy comparing this county to other places and times where the same sentiment was taken to a deadly extreme. HOWEVER, AWCheney is right that passion is a double-edged sword (I use the word sword in a figurative sense). Robert Duecaster and other members of Help Save Manassas are lampooned by the public, and despised by our Board of Supervisors, because their passion has been so very evident during Citizens’ Time. I venture that if the Supervisors had known Duecaster wrote the Immigration Resolution (along with that creepy F.A.I.R. Lawyer from the Civil Rights hearings), the resolution might never have passed.
Simply put, fear of Hispanics is one of the driving forces being used to destroy your community and mine. If you I.D. as Hispanic, and use language that can be pointed at to justify such fear, you may be hurting your cause.
Mackie does NOT remind me of the worst of bvbl. Regardless of what he says, he doesn’t keep repeating the same old tired sound bites issued by F.A.I.R. Each of his posts reflect new thought. He writes well and presents a logical, albeit often controversial, argument.
I have certainly had my disagreements with Mackie. However, I think we both kept it civil. Mackie can be biting and caustic, and yes, extreme. So what. We can chose to ignore him if we so choose. He doesn’t stalk us to answer him like some of the folks over on bvbl, who lie in wait for people.
I would much prefer to take this discussion out of the third person and address Mackie directly rather than talk about him like he is a side of beef.
Mackie, as a your virtual friend and perhaps one day real life friend, I suggest you tone it down some. The people on this blog are not your enemies, even if we disagree with them, at least they are willing to engage. Few of them are responsible directly for the actions the BOCS has taken. You have a gift for words. I hope you can put your talent to use in ways that cannot be turned against you, or against those of us you seek to defend.
Remember, anything that Hispanic people say can and will be used against you.
I really feel that Probable Cause would not have been repealed if not for the fact that a majority of the Citizens’ Time speakers who asked for this change were Caucasian. It isn’t fair, but that’s the political reality. I’m using straight talk with you because I know you are an intelligent person.
By the way, I watched the entirety of this New York Times video Mackie recommended. It’s outstanding and it deserves its own thread.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM-1MbOJFjI
WHWN:
My intention was never to take over the thread. I was pointing out my point of view. I’m surprised anyone would deny Ethnic Cleansing has begun in our country. We’re not murdering the targeted minority. We’re just rounding them up in little to mid-sized groups here and there (because that’s all our society will tolerate at this time), forcibly drugging them at the hands of ICE agents, even violating the constitutional rights of many citizens in the process.
It was the overwhelming reaction to my observation that took over the thread. I honestly never expected such a shocking reaction to something that appears obvious to me. However, something tells me that the gulf between my perception and that of others isn’t solely to blame for the vociferous nature of the denials. I think some people here are bound and determined to quash the idea that anything like an Ethnic Cleansing might be taking place…no matter what the evidence is telling us.
And if anyone is actually wondering because they have a hard time comprehending metaphorical speech…the only place for violence is in self defense.
AWCheney, I take words such as “y’all” and “you folks” as plural; and since you didn’t specify who those others might be, you appeared to have your broad brush handy. Given the choice between the arguments of Greg Letiecq and Mackie, I have no problem thinking that Mackie presents a more cogent argument. (And I know that you know he doesn’t mean you any physical harm despite how you’d like to spin it.)
I am as suprised that you would foster the notion that Ethnic Cleansing has begun in our country or even county. How then, do you explain the three Hispanic, one Asian and two African American families still living on my block? Did the cleansers miss them??? Did they miss me? What Constitutional rights of which citizens in this county are being violated? Why have they not notified the proper channels to stop these violations? I am not aware of any specific instances in which our County Government’s resolution (again – which I do not support on moral grounds) has been proved to be a violation of ANYONE’s rights. Its easy to throw mud, make it stick. What “evidence” do you speak of Mackie?
If someone is in the hands or custody of ICE agents and they are of illegal status,that is NOT ethnic cleansing, not matter how you try to spin your viewpoint. They are in custody because of their actions and the consequences allocated to the actions that THOSE individuals chose to take, regardless of how you try to paint the picture your way. If you don’t like the way the law is written or enforced, then VOTE and change it. But until that point of change, our outmoded immigration laws have been upheld by the Supreme Court as legal, enforceable actions. Unless of course, you find the Supreme Court to be ignored too.
“He/she is one of the few voices on here who is authentically presenting the immigrant perspective.”
WHWN, actually Mackie is not an immigrant…he clearly implied so in one of his comments (Mackie, 16. June 2008, 8:12). Ironically, I happen to be an immigrant, long a naturalized citizen, having come to this country legally with my parents at a young age at a time when the immigration laws and regulations were far more strict than they are today. They went through much to come here and did everything by the numbers, ultimately achieving that American dream through their industry.
I believe that you will find far more TRUE immigrants who fall on the side of the “Rule of Law,” unless they have a financial or other vested interest in continuing the status quo, than those who support open borders and amnesty. Many will never openly say so for fear of reprisal (there was actually one such person who commented only briefly some time ago on BVBL who said exactly that).
We live in a society of rules and laws where there is an expectation of consequences for breaking them. Many immigrants of the past, as well as the present, fled their homelands because what laws existed were/are selectively enforced and opportunity to better themselves was equally limited by selectivity. Here the opportunities are unlimited for those who choose to earn them and aspire to the American Dream…within the limits of the law. Immigrants, TRUE immigrants, appreciate that often more than natural born citizens who, all too often, take that for granted. Starting life in this country by breaking our laws is NOT a good thing and can only lead to the necessity of further lawbreaking in order to remain here without status. Rewarding this behavior is an insult to every immigrant who came to this country with respect for the United States and what this nation and its people have offered them.
AWCheney:
And what an abject disgrace that after having arrived, you now work to slam the door shut in the face of those who would follow…
Here, once again, is the argument for idol worship of the law. Don’t think. Just do what the law says. ‘I was just following orders’. Where have we heard that before?
The emptiness of this argument is exposed for all to see when you realize that immigration law makes as much sense and is as realistic as the prohibition laws of the 1920s. We wasted lots of time, resources, and manpower rounding up and locking up perfectly normal people during the 1920s because they wanted to have a beer after work. If we reinstated those idiotic prohibition laws, we would have the same result again. In the same way that unrealistic prohibition laws bankrolled the rise of the mafia, so do idiotic immigration quotas fuel the rise of smugglers like MS-13. Give amnesty and ease rewarding of visas and the illegal immigration will dry up. Then MS-13 will shrivel up. Once the immigrants have legal status they can fight to raise wages and benefits in their respective industries, thereby raising the wages of american-born workers in those industries as well.
Here it is again. Be slaves to the matrix. Forget that your country was born out of a rebellion against unjust laws.
Let me tell you, nobody gives two cents about immigration law unless they need to use it against someone else, or it’s being used against them. Especially you guys on HSM. You’re so ignorant of immigration law, you have no idea how out of touch it is with reality on the ground. Methinks the law of supply and demand will trump immigration quotas every time.
AWCheney, you spiel smacks of someone who’s determined to prove he’s more american than the rest of the americans. So much so that it seems every fart our politicians make has to be treated as divine scripture.
Without your slavish devotion to law, you’ve pretty much got nothing to stand on.
Lucky Duck, I think the “cleansing” had a particular ethnic target. The large crowds at the marathon BOCS meeting reflected which groups felt intimidated. One group was intimidated by the change that its members saw in their communities yet had the political power to force the Duecaster Disaster upon the rest of the silent citzens and the other group was its target. Had more communication taken place between the two groups and their related allies (churches, community organizations, Human Rights Commission, BOCS, zoning, even the hospital) prior to the enactment of the Immigration Resolution, we probably wouldn’t be left with this mess. Instead FAIR and its puppets splintered the community.
Which in a long-winded way gets me back to the original topic – the party. The WaPo as well as 9500liberty have noted the impact of the Resolution on the local economy, particulary businesses which had an immigrant clientele. To me, helping some of these businesses survive and bridging the gap that has been created by the manner in which community “problems” (overcrowding, a lot of cars, etc.) were handled is important. I already patronize Tony’s Pizza and Ashton Diner. I’m just adding to my list of restaurants not subtracting.
These are some great posts and some great writing too. Thanks for the personal history AWCheney. Thanks for the cogent reply, Mackie, I understand that from your perspective the hijacking was a surprise. But the challenges to your analogy could have been predicted since ethnic cleansing is obviously on the far end of the continuum on which we have unfortunately embarked in 21st century America.
AWCheney, my ancestors came here illegally. It was many centuries ago when this land was a colony of the British Empire and there were very few native born Americans who were not indigenous. So, if there is no such thing as adjusting status after you arrive without “insulting” you, and if the subsequent generations (“anchor babies”) are equally guilty of the sin of coming here without the consent of the “TRUE” immigrants and native born residents, then I am an illegal immigrant while you are a “TRUE” immigrant.
I suppose we could agree that by some definition, you are also more “TRUE” than Mackie.
But even if we grant you this, you have to know that most of the multi-generational American citizens in the United States are in my category. We founded this country illegally. The recent immigrants are in your category, most came here legally.
So, ultimately, it will not serve you, or anyone well to segregate people into categories and assign/deny rights accordingly.
My observation is that arguments against the Anti-Immigrant Hysteria epidemic in America today tend to look out for individual rights and the common good, while arguments for the Anti-Immigrant Hysteria epidemic are looking out for the resentments and anxieties of those Americans who are blind to the common good.
It’s a no-brainer no matter how you categorize us.
“AWCheney, my ancestors came here illegally. It was many centuries ago when this land was a colony of the British Empire and there were very few native born Americans who were not indigenous. So, if there is no such thing as adjusting status after you arrive without “insulting” you, and if the subsequent generations (”anchor babies”) are equally guilty of the sin of coming here without the consent of the “TRUE” immigrants and native born residents, then I am an illegal immigrant while you are a “TRUE” immigrant.”
???
Sorry WHWN, but that paragraph just doesn’t make any sense at all. You WERE born here, am I correct? Your family HAS been here for many generations, am I correct? How, in all that is logical, does that make you an illegal immigrant? I trust you realize that obfuscation of the issue of present-day illegal immigration adds no more to the debate than insane accusations of “ethnic cleansing.”
Insofar as Mackie’s “cogent reply” (assuming you are referring to his reply to me), it is so inane to be unworthy of a response.
AWCheney,
I think the comparison of current-day immigration law and it’s effects with that of the prohibition laws (which have been crushed under the weight of reality I might add) is not unworthy of a response.
Moon-Howler, So that you will have an understanding of the exchange, you originally posted to me on this thread that “I don’t think I have been mean to you but I feel you threw me under the bus in your statements.” I do not have any idea of when I “threw you under a bus.” But in April, I had asked a simple question on April 21 around 9 pm about why a newspaper article was not put up for comment since it seemed to have a different tilt than you normally find on this blog. Around 24 hours later, this appeared–well after all misunderstandings were resolved and I had apologized for misunderstanding a number of items. The post I have included below was my response in which I had quoted your post (I did it this way for space saving)
A PW County Resident, 22. April 2008, 21:30
“Moon-howler said on 22 Apr 2008 at 9:24 pm:
A PW County Resident,
I need to remind you that you are a guest here. You have come here balls to the wall with everyone and it isn’t appropriate or appreciated.
Do not criticize the Blog owner. It is her blog. You are here at her invitation. If you don’t like how she runs things here or her timing, go start your own.
If you want to fight with people, go check out the Black Velvets. They are generally up for a few rounds or 2. You will find that we are a fairly reasonable group and generally can discuss different ideas and remain polite. We will not remain polite if you pick at our Admin and that is a promise.”
And this came from out of left field? Could you please explain this attack a little more? I made no attack on anyone here, especially the Admin. Where am I fighting with anyone? I truly do not understand.
Then KG posted this in my defense–
1. kgotthardt, 23. April 2008, 7:44
Moon-Howler, I don’t see Resident as a racist or anything like that. Yes, she was critical of Admin (which I don’t think was necessary), but since when is that a sin on any blog or in any form of media? Bashing a publication is pretty standard (people to it to WAPO all the time, and I’ve done it to several papers and television networks).
Resident’s solutions also don’t seem very off base to me. (By the way, I’ve called Resident “Citizen” a couple of times. Error on my part. Sorry.)
So let’s stop the bickering, eh? Let’s analyze MICHAEL! Hee heee. I like his focus and his tone is generally respectful.
And you replied that you said what you wanted to and that was that.
So that you can look at whole exchange, it is here–http://www.antibvbl.net/index.php/2008/04/21/pwcbos-042308-meeting/#comments
By the way, my only criticism is based on what I see is hypocracy — that we are all subject too from time to time and I don’t mind looking at myself when people pick out a hypocracy I may have–and hateful words and hateful analogies–sorry I don’t buy that it is merely illustrative if one side says it and hateful if the other side says it.
And yes, I have tangled twice with Greg one on one on the other blog as well. I will repeat again that using terms like “nazi”, “racist” “ethnic cleansing” are not any more productive than the other side with “cockroaches”, “criminals”, and many derogatory terms aimed at hispanics. There will be no solution until there is a concerted effort on both sides to cut through the “cr*p” and listen to what would satisfy the other side–that is the first step in any negotiation. Do you need to accept the other’s point of view? Of course not, but probably there is more to agree on as a start and go from there.
I apologize in advance for any typos or misstatements. Please point them out nicely and I will respond/clarify in a similar fashion.
WHWN, I think the split theories of issues are clearly deduced from the posts here, Mackie writes at 10:36 to “give amnesty and ease rewarding of visas” as his focus while showing disdain for both AWCheney and myself for showing respect for laws of our society. I place myself in the middle of both Mackie and AWCheney’s posts.
That is the main area of disagreement and as I have been saying, without compromise there will be no successful legislation on a national scale. Not amnesty, but a pathway to citizenship that in some form is going to allow some people to stay and others will have to leave or be deported. Coming here and being allowed to stay here is NOT a right granted to anyone who can enter here illegally. There are laws here, some outmoded, oh yes, but until we change them or they catch up, they are the laws. Some here favor selective following of which ever laws THEY deem just. That is impossible in a democracy because there is always give and take and nobody gets 100%, so do those who do not believe in compromise just pick and choose the laws they wish to follow? On taxes? on stealing? On immigration? That’s anarchy, not democracy.
Those on either side of the extreme will never win, because the middle will always compromise. Complete and open amnesty is a dead issue, as much as deportation of 12 millon illegals is one too. But until those stubborn extremes realize that, we’ll have a stalemate. And our resolution grew out of that stalemate. If the federal government passed their immigration bill last July, we would not have a resolution. If the federal government passes an immigration bill in this term, our resolution will be an empty relic.
Mackie, 16. June 2008, 11:41
“AWCheney,
I think the comparison of current-day immigration law and it’s effects with that of the prohibition laws (which have been crushed under the weight of reality I might add) is not unworthy of a response.”
We already went the rounds on that, Mackie, over at BVBL…when you were in your “The Truth” persona. Your ultimate response was equally inane…that I was personally responsible for the rise of MS-13 in our area. It’s pointless.
On restaurants, all I know is I’ll never patronize anyone who supported that asinine boycott last year. La Tolteca did not, Guapo’s did not, Picante in Chantilly did not, and that’s as much Mexican food as I need.
I don’t know AW, you show up and it gets really nasty. I see a pattern. Just an observation.
Juturna, it always gets nasty over here when someone shows up who disagrees with certain of your regulars. I have been perfectly civil, despite the lack of civility (in a few cases) in return. I take it that you are suggesting that I am unwelcome here, which certainly doesn’t surprise me. I cannot be intimidated, and I have no difficulty defending myself and my views in proper English without the use of invectives. I can see why you wouldn’t want someone like that around.
Ha ha. I’m reminded of reading a late night series of email echanges between two nemeses. A true pissing contest!
AWCheney,
I’ve been forced to post under many names over there with BVBL guys and gals so I’m not sure which pseudonym exactly you’re referring to but I’m pretty sure I never accused you of being the cause of the rise of MS-13.
However, it’s a fact that MS-13 profits substantially off of the human smuggling of workers et. al. They have established routes of travel. They’ll probably be the ones who will help terrorists to cross the border. We keep supporting obsolete immigration law and the nonsense war on drugs and both of these put lotsa cash in MS-13 pockets.
Does this make sense to anyone? The most important thing is to defend our country from those who would come here to kill us. Giving amnesty to the millions of hard-workers here can only help that situation. Of course, the people who think these unwashed immigrants need to stop messing up our neighborhood aren’t gonna be happy…but at least they’ll have a better chance to avoid being victims in the next terrorist attack.
I am being completely sincere here AWCheney. This is not a ploy to bamboozle some amnesty deal out of people. I would support complete deportation, albeit with a heavy heart, if I felt that was the quickest route to eliminating the undocumented immigration question so that we could focus on building a wall on the border. Reality kicks us in the face though, and I think any move towards mass deportation will be a mess as it has made a mess of our county. The quickest way to eliminate undocumented question is to give em documents.
Don’t you think the priority needs to be given to securing the border from terrorists, and proceeding from that point we remove every obstacle in it’s path as soon as possible? Even if that means 100% amnesty? Would you rather grant amnesty or watch our nation be shattered?
Absolutely not true AW. We all routinely disagree with everyone even (gasp) the administrator. I can find common ground with just about anyone. You are welcome here. Maybe we’ve all been exposed to too much talk radio. We don’t all need to make zingers, we don’t all need to have a parting shot, we don’t all have to constantly point a finger and call people names…… it gets old. I sense you are more mature than some of the others here. Set the example.
I don’t disagree with everything you have to say but frankly I don’t need the stress, it doesn’t mean I don’t disagree with you or don’t want you here.
yeah Mackie we need to hurry up and grant amnesty, so we can get on with the business of arguing about the NEXT amnesty. We do one every 20 years or so and apparently we’re running late on this one. As soon as we legalize this bunch of 20 million they can being in 40-60 million family members and then another 100 million can sneak in and start lobbying for the NEXT amnesty … why don’t we just get straight to it, end all this human suffering, make Spanish our national language and all start living 20 to a house.
A PW County Resident, 15. June 2008, 21:19
PW Resident,
Alanna is doing her best, she posted a link to “solutions”, if you are having difficulty posting, then please, e-mail admin and she will certainly try to address it as best she can. I am technically challenged so I can’t be of assistance on this one 🙂
O.K. guys, this is what I am sensing from the dialogue that Mackie has inspired. First, we must find a credible reasonable solution to immigration, especially as it pertains to our southern border. The solution must be reasonable, humane, and take into acccount our economic needs. Within the context of immigration reform, we must address how we help build up our sister countries in this hemisphere, and clearly NAFTA has NOT been the solution. Most importantly however, we must never forget that at the heart of this great nation is a belief that, “all men are created equal” ,and that our country would not be the the superpower it is today, without all of “us” immigrants. We must never forget, that throughout our history, immigrants have been villified, whether it be the chinese that built our railroads or Irish, Italian, and every other immigrant group that created the “salad bowl” we co-exist in today. I find myself, on more than one occasion, feeling uncomfortable, talking about all this hate that even I, would like to say, is not “credible” that people are “overreacting”, and instead go back to my normal life and put my head in the sand, deciding that, since I am not impacted, I will just ignore it. But the reality is, as I have said before, a cancer is growing, not just in my community, but in my country. I believe that many people here see that hate growing, but for various reasons, want to dismiss it, or say that the law is the law and relegate our debate to the notion we are “powerless” because we must obey the law, no matter what the consequences to our fellow man. We can solve these tensions within our community, but divisive resolutions will not be the way, having our fellow human beings, quake in fear, will not be the way. Reveling, at our fellow human beings pain, will not be the way. I believe there is a common ground, but if we refuse to find it, we will not only witness paralysis of our economic engine, but the humanity and compassion that has made our country so great will surely suffer. Throughout history, people have given into their fear, only to suffer themselves, I believe we can rise above the fear, and instead, create the solutions that will give rise to an even greater country.
Mackie, in all seriousness, the amnesty solution has already been tried in several incarnations since 1986. Each amnesty led to more and more illegal aliens coming here in hopes that they would be present for the next opportunity, to the point where we have the current situation. It just doesn’t work…it’s proven that it doesn’t work.
I agree that there must be some form of immigration reform. However, before it can happen our government and lawmakers must show themselves capable of enforcing the existing laws and securing our borders before they can even remotely be trusted to enforce a whole new set of laws and regulations. It just wouldn’t make any sense to do it any other way.