321 Thoughts to “Come out to “economic party” number 4!”
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- Citizen Tom
- Counts of Monte Cristo. The
- Derecho, The
- Dixie Pig, The
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- PWCPolitics.com
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- She the People
- State of NoVA, the
- The Jeffersoniad
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- You, Me and the Lamp Post
Rick Bentley:
Not just amnesty Rick. We also have to make it easy for these workers to apply for a visa and come here to work through one of our ports of entry which we have poured billions into making secure. No one’s gonna come illegally if they can just pay 100$ for a visa and 100$ for a bus ride to the border. Once the thorny issue of illegal immigration is gone, politicians can build a huge, tough wall on the border without having to face any allegations of racism. They’re mostly moral cowards so any allegations of racism, and they collapse into quivering jelly rolls.
You guys over at HSM are setting the bar too high for our politicians. Lower the bar. You want deportation AND building a wall. This would require tremendous amounts of courage from our politicians (an impossibility), not to mention great damage to our economy at a time where no one dares to do so (a double impossibility). It will never happen. Strive to see a little farther ahead. Let go of your desire for the perfect…and embrace the good enough.
Elena
I firmly believe that the in large part the economic divides are growing and those find themselves in a precarious position, one they did not expect, are reacting out of fear and looking for someone or something to blame. This is not uncommon in economic history not just here in the US but everywhere. But the US is being an angry country.
But as a civilized nation we have an obligation to ourselves to behave as you say with compassion and intelligence.
Did anyone see the video of the old man that was hit by a car in Hartford CT? Cars continued to swerve around him and people on the sidewalks kept going or crossed the street. The Mayor said that “Hartford had lost is’t moral compass”. When I see comments like those that have been made in PWC on blogs and at public meetings, I cringe and think we, too, are losing our moral compass.
Most of us agree that zero tolerance is usually a good idea for other people. Therefore, zero tolerance and aboslutes are not pragmatic.
Illegal immigration is an outcome of a larger problem here in the US. We should get to the problem and stop focusing solely on the issue.
Good point, Mackie. One role of government is to address community expectations. I’ve heard Chief Deane do that several times. It is not a popular thing to do especially for those that demand more that is fiscally or legally possible.
Most of what I hear from him is exactly that. He says what he knows can be accomplished. When that falls short of some citizens expectations he is attacked.
We could all improve our listening skills….
AWCheney,
I’ll give you the same response I gave Rick. Check my last post above in response to Rick.
AWCheney, what you are asking for in your quote above is to wait until our politicians deport 12-20 million people. It will be a mess, with litigation stretching out for years.
You’re playing political musical chairs, and the music’s climbing higher and higher, Al Queda will put an end to the music.
Resident,
You left out what you had said to bring about that kind of reaction from me. On the other hand, I didn’t call you names, I described behavior and told you not to criticize Alanna. How is that mean? I have no idea what Kgott is talking about and apparently I didn’t deem it important enough to answer. I rarely use the word racist and I haven’t used any of the other words so I am just not going to allow myself to get sucked in to all that.
Suggestion, (again) come here and be part of the conversation. Take issue with ideas you don’t like and agree with those you do. But please don’t come here and complain. Alanna is a busy wife and mother in addition to owning and running the blog. She doesn’t baby sit it.
If I hurt your feelings I am sorry, but my feelings haven’t changed. No, this blog is not perfect but the people who came here and are the regulars obviously find something about it that works for them, even the malcontents.
Mackie, you’re oversimplifying a very complex issue. There are far more elements involved in immigration policy than a handful of dollars. That said, since when was it in the American character “to settle” and “lower the bar” for anyone, much less our politicians? Perhaps that’s the problem in our country right now, and why we are slipping behind many of the other industrialized nations in many areas. Innovation, research and development, education, and image, to name but a few, have taken an enormous hit in recent years…and just how long will it be before prosperity can be added to that list? Settling and lowering the bar is the answer for this country to our problems ONLY if we want to slide full tilt into the arms of mediocrity.
There are answers to be had in civil debate between strong, selfless lawmakers, and logic and reason among the citizenry at large…not in a head-long dash toward mediocrity. At the moment, unfortunately, greed and complacency have overtaken far too many in this country and EVERYONE is suffering the consequences. This condition in which we find ourselves did not occur overnight, nor will the answers become immediately apparent. “Settling and lowering the bar” is how we got to this point in the first place and is most certainly the worst possible solution to the immigration problem, or any other problem that we are facing. We need to start again DEMANDING excellence of our lawmakers, our government, our business community, our schools and, most importantly, ourselves if we are to once more rise to become the shining example to which every other nation of the world aspires. When that process starts, the answers will start coming…not only for us, but for our progeny.
Juturna,
I too was wondering, what has become of a country that would allow a man to suffer in the street, alone, after being hit not once, but TWICE. At least to run out and hold his hand, tell him help was coming, to even see whether he was still alive for G-ds sake! Are we so consumed with our own personal needs, that we have forgotten each one of us is only a small part that makes up the sum of our world?
I believe the reason we can’t get to the issue of illgal immigration is because we CAN’T agree on the problem! Some say its population control, some say its assimilation, some say its jobs, some say its crime, everyone has their belief on what the problem is. Until we can agree in the “problem” we will find it very difficult to create the solution.
AWCheney,
No offense intended, but your last post sounds completely divorced from reality. It sounds like a travel brochure for a country called Paradise.
This isn’t a fairy tale where the hero wins in the end no matter what. These men who want to kill us are serious, cunning, and resourceful. They have promised to come back, and they have a near perfect track record of keeping their promises.
Moon-howler, I trust that you did not think I left anything out intentionally. The thing I said to kick things off was “Is there a reason that the article in the Post today has not been mentioned on this board?” I also said that I understood and respected the admin and that if was unintentional, I was sorry I misunderstood. I also pointed out that other items had been posted so I couldn’t understand how it was missed also.
I tried to be as truthful as possible which I why I posted the link to the page of comments so that everyone who cared could see the context, there was just no room or reason to reprint all of the exchanges. By the time that you posted to me, all of the misunderstandings were resolved, apologies made, and you jumped on me again. Which is why I said “out of left field” since most of had gone beyond that.
Look, I understand that even if it were intentional and showed a bias, I was saying that I expected it because it was a blog, just like Greg (whom I don’t know and don’t agree with in many areas) wouldn’t post an article that is overly complimentary either. It is human nature.
But I really don’t like an attitude on either board that their reality is the only perfect reality.
AWCHeney,
If you had to choose between:
1.100% amnesty and a safe America
2. no amnesty and a few American cities destroyed by terrorist attack
Which would you choose?
Let’s see if you have the courage to answer this question…
AWCheney, 16. June 2008, 14:14
“We need to start again DEMANDING excellence of our lawmakers, our government, our business community, our schools and, most importantly, ourselves if we are to once more rise to become the shining example to which every other nation of the world aspires. When that process starts, the answers will start coming…not only for us, but for our progeny.”
=====================================
This is true, but those demands must be made across the board, the people must be united in order for this reform to come about. Currently we are not united, this seems to be the time that many people are abandoning their misconceptions of the last 10 years and are searching for who they really are. So many of us have molded our identy to what the commercial media spectacle has called for and now as the insulation of capital fades away many are being forced to look upon their naked selfs and wonder what is true purpose of this life.
Illegal Immigration is an easy excuse for some people as to why their material lives fail to satisfy them, but it is not motivating the majority. I can only testify for myself and speculate from my observances of the others around me, but since this year began I have been in a state of self reflection, questioning if the materials, politics and goals in my life are really providing me with a quality of life as opposed to an unpayable debt.
The term “American Values” has no solid definition, every culture in our union has a diffrent set of values and in this age of knoledge (and misinformation) being avalible to everyone; Every individual Human Being in the United States is capable of having their own unique system of values. The religious/dogma blocks are only being grinded out finer and finer. Only an event of catyclysmic proportions will be able to even out the Human race to a point where it could be united over certian issues, but currently The united States cannot Unite behind one set of solid values.
The only way you’ll find change is through compromise or anhilating all who disagree with you and I feel the latter has been time and again shown to be ineffective.
The United States is undergoing Social re-evolution, a revolution if you will and like unto organic evolution, those who try to fight it will be overwhelmed and unable to survive into the future. If we are to continue to be strong in the future, we must change our values and find compromise, otherwise we shall continue our petty infighting and devolve into a true third world nation…except without me, I’m not above leaving the country if it wills to go that route.
You haven’t been on this earth very long, Mackie, if you believe that merely demanding excellence is a Utopian concept. How do you think this country got to the point where we can all sit here on our collective derrières typing away on our computers in the throes of wordsmanship? The mere fact that you believe excellence to be completely divorced from reality tells me that someone did you a disservice and demanded far too little of you. The unfortunate thing is that you are not the exception…you are an example of the rule.
Your question is absurd on its face, Mackie. It assumes amnesty as the solution to terrorism, which is a false assumption. That kind of question is precisely the reason why I will no longer respond to ANY political polls, regardless of the Party or candidate. They are invariably push-polls…like your question.
Add one more:
3. Secure the border first. Then we can iron out the details of amnesty.
That’s what most citizens of the U.S. want. And quite frankly, I don’t think any of them care under what banner you secure it. Either to fight illegal immigration or terrorism. Just secure the border. Does it really matter why it’s secured?
Dr. Jacob Bronowski explains the danger of striving for utter perfection and dominance…
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=8mIfatdNqBA
He was a brilliant man, this is a clip of him from one of the greatest documentaries ever made, if not the greatest… ‘The Ascent of Man”
I would suggest anyone who is capable to find a way to see it in it’s entirety or to read the book.
I’ve read the book rod, and I’m not talking about “striving for utter perfection and dominance”…I’m talking about demanding excellence. There’s a big difference.
Mando,
I agree with you whole heartedly that most do want a secure border. We all have different ideas as to how reasonable immigration reform will happen. I think that’s why we all keep reading the blogs in the first place to exchange ideas.
And NO, it doesn’t matter why the border is secure. Just make it so. Also, I am concerned about the security at our ports on the coasts. They too must be included in securing our border. I think our southern border is the most critical by far.
AWCheney,
Expecting excellence from elected officials is a waste of time. They’re mostly no good and there’s very little you can do about it.
How do you expect to hold them accountable? You can only make an impact at election time…and electorates are notoriously fickle. I wish you luck in your quest to demand excellence from those who built their careers on evading responsibility. It’s the elected officials who couldn’t evade responsibility who were voted out of office.
No, it’s a fools errand to try to change the nature of people.
Nobody cares much about immigration except in reference to the economy. Now that the economy is going downhill, it’s ‘so long fellas, don’t let the door hit you on the way out’
The fact that the electorate as a whole would be so foolhardy as to actually think we’re not facing a catastrophic terrorist threat is unbelievable to me. Over and over I hear people talking about building a wall to keep out lawnmowers. What a patently absurd idea. What moron would trek across the desert and risk his life to get here if he could just pay 100$ for a visa and take a bus?
The terrorist threat is the only issue that matters when it comes to the border. It demands that we give amnesty and make work visas easy to obtain.
I seem to be one of the few voices who can see this. Which is why I’m making plans to move out of the country before the nuclear bombs begin exploding. I think I’ll move to Argentina and start a business. American dollars still go a long way down there and they’re hungry for investment, not to mention the women are gorgeous. The USA has a huge bullseye on it and that bullseye is growing every day. We are an empire. And, God help us, we have generated an empire’s worth of enemies. We are wide open for an attack. It is only a matter of time.
I’m getting out of here while there’s still time.
“The terrorist threat is the only issue that matters when it comes to the border. It demands that we give amnesty and make work visas easy to obtain.”
OK, so other then to feed your ego, why argue? We can all agree that the borders need to be secured. Secure them. Personally, I want them secured to keep out terrorists AND illegal aliens, but if they’re eventually secured because a majority wants to keep out flying purple chimpanzee’s, I really don’t give a rat’s ass.
Mackie,
Your quote…
“I seem to be one of the few voices who can see this”? So what does that make everyone who disagrees with your opinon? Wrong? Racist? Maybe your just a genius.
Only in the last few posts have you brought up this “terrorist” angle as a reason for amnesty. I have re-read all of your posts on this thread prior to this afternoon and your justification for amnesty is that “ethnic cleansing” is going on and that the Resolution was in your words, “evil and I fight evil”. No mention of a “terrorist” reasoning for amnesty until nearly 24 hours into this thread.
While I will agree that a pathway is a middle ground, there should never, ever,be 100% amnesty. Some people should not be allowed to stay. If they have a criminal record, if the person has been deported before (it is a felony in the United States to return after being deported) or if they are committing Identity theft, they should not be eligible for any pathway to citizenship.
Mackie you’re telling us that we can’t trust people, well why should we trust 100% of ANY population to be good? We shouldn’t. There are untrustworthy people of all backgrounds.
This “terrorist” angle is a scam for your no compromise, 100 % amnesty. That will never pass muster.
“I have re-read all of your posts on this thread prior to this afternoon and your justification for amnesty is that “ethnic cleansing” is going on and that the Resolution was in your words, “evil and I fight evil”. ”
See, here’s my take on the extremists of both sides. Looking at the resolution in a micro sense you have one extreme side claiming the resolution is a panacea. Then you have the side claiming it’s ethnic clensing. In my short 37 years of living in a democratic society, what I have noticed is that cooler heads always prevail and the extremes are going to go on spouting rhetoric until they’re blue in the face no matter what. The resolution is the result of cooler heads. It’s neither a panacea nor ethnic cleansing.
It’s the man that finds common grounds on both sides and hovers in the middle that gets the job done.
My friend told me she was against the immigration bill last year because it was not perfect. Perfect?? What is? She is also demanding (while doing very little) excellance. And where are we now? Would passing any part of that bill done any good? I think so.
I go back to governments managing expectation. When you choose to live in a jurisdiction that has a 65-70% reliance on residential real estate tax and experience a 15% downturn in the market, how much excellance can you expect without paying for it? So excellance comes down to how much excellance are you willing to pay or can afford. Excellance is arbitrary and is fiscally and personally defined.
I certainly hope Mr. Stewart, Mr. Stirrup and the rest know there are some folks out there that expect excellance from him. Personnally, I would be happy if we were able to rise to medicore. Although, now that the furor appears to be dying down and fewer people are attempting to be lawyers and Police Chiefs we might be moving up that way.
12million souls are not going to self deport or be granted anmesty. So if we can take that as an asbolute we can begin. Tightening the borders makes sense before we start. If I had a leak I’d stop the incoming before spending time and money on cleaning up.
My friend told me she was against the immigration bill last year because it was not perfect. Perfect?? What is? She is also demanding (while doing very little) excellance. And where are we now? Would passing any part of that bill done any good? I think so.
I go back to governments managing expectation. When you choose to live in a jurisdiction that has a 65-70% reliance on residential real estate tax and experience a 15% downturn in the market, how much excellance can you expect without paying for it? So excellance comes down to how much excellance are you willing to pay or can afford. Excellance is arbitrary and is fiscally and personally defined.
I certainly hope Mr. Stewart, Mr. Stirrup and the rest know there are some folks out there that expect excellance from him. Personnally, I would be happy if we were able to rise to medicore. Although, now that the furor appears to be dying down and fewer people are attempting to be lawyers and Police Chiefs we might be moving up that way.
12million souls are not going to self deport or be granted anmesty. So if we can take that as an asbolute we can begin. Tightening the borders makes sense before we start. If I had a water leak I’d stop the incoming before spending time and money on cleaning up.
Dang, try to get a little work done and I get buried with new comments! I’m glad to see upon skimming the frenetic posting on this thread today that people are talking about solutions on the Federal level. The only way to move forward is to require people without papers to become citizens if they wish to stay. The pathway should have a wide opening, so that anyone who wishes to start the process can come out of the shadows immediately. After background checks, the vast majority of them will become citizens. At that point, we will be able to talk about what to do with those who chose not to start the path to citizenship. Unlike today’s discussion dominated often by “DEPORT THEM ALL” maniacs, such a discussion would not be rendered superfluous by the undeniable impossibility of deporting 12 million people, not to mention the crippling damage this would do to our national economy.
Some of the remaining undocumented people could be prodded along with some assistance from community organizations. Others, we may find, are avoiding the process because they fear they would not pass the background checks. These are the people we want to find for national security reasons, and it will be easier to find them if we pass comprehensive immigration reform. Why? Because the vast majority of new immigrants would be registered with our Federal government, and ICE could focus on identifying the stragglers.
I’m not sure if this is what Mackie was getting at, but it is true that comprehensive immigration reform would make us safer.
Lucky Ducky said:
Oh I wish this were true. No, you’re wrong my friend. 100% wrong.
I worded this wrong. I meant to say that I believe completely in my point of view but very few people agree with me. I couldn’t care less about immigrants coming here to work. But other people think we need to debate endlessly about building walls to keep out the guys who will build our infrastructure. Well…who the hell is gonna build the walls???
Yadda, yadda, yadda…on and on forever…I hope you’ve packed your radiation suit.
Cripes Mackie you are beginning to make sense to me. At least what I get from your comments is that we certainly have bigger issues to worry about and that is spot on. I am a tad more optimistic but recognize the truth in what you say. That HSM red spot now looks like a bulls eye to me.
Juturna,
I’ll try to prepare something to help you see what I see.
At a larger level I am seeing the same thing, I think. Although, I have always been convinced the US would split into two or three regions. One government and all that infrastructure doesn’t add up in my head. Like the USSR after they broke.
Juturna, 16. June 2008, 17:58
“Although, I have always been convinced the US would split into two or three regions.”
Well, gee, then we wouldn’t be the UNITED States anymore, would we. Just the divided states, if you had it your way.
If “I had my way”. Just because I think it’s a possibility doesn’t mean I want it. Yikes! That is what drives some of us nuts here. The jump.
Wow the conversation has really taken off here. I started a response last evening with the intention of finishing and submitting in the morning. However, the kids got to the computer before I did and my almost brilliant response was GONE.
PW Resident,
I am aware of the issue with the ‘Solution’ page not having the comments. This is not intentional. I have spent time attempting to fix the problem with no luck. I will continue to investigate. And you’re free to say anything you wish here. You might get an earful from somebody but the opportunity to discuss opposing viewpoints continues.
Can we talk about path to citizenship on the solutions page? This thread has some common ground forming on that regard.
Alanna, thank you so much for jumping in. I hope you understand that I have no ill will toward you as you have always treated me with respect. I am truly sorry that we can’t post comments in the solutions section since that would be your and the blog’s crowning glory, but not knowing what the problem is, I can’t offer any solutions-no pun intended.
I really don’t think you need to have people coming to your defense. I may not agree with you in some things but I know that I will have a wonderful time with the debate.
Take care of those kids and your “other half”. (I have learned the hard way not to say “better half.”)
Juturna, that sure was a quantum leap re initial person. I believe we did split off back in 1861. See where that got us. Actually the entire civil war becomes much more interesting once we remove the emotionalism from it.
Mackie: Thinking about your partial bio here….Do these words have any familiarity to you?
All hail, dear Alma Mater,
We sing our praise to you.
High on Marye’s Hillstop,
You stand forever true.
Born in truth and honor,
You ever more shall be,
The Model of our future years,
And all eternity.
The point Mackie makes, however “convoluted” it may seem to some, is this, we do have REAL serious issues facing this country,and terrorism is one of them. We are taking our eye off the ball by being distracted by another red herring of scapegoating a specific group in what WOULD have been THE battle call to win another election. You saw every repubican candidate cave to the illegal immigration lobby but McCain. And who is still standing? McCain!
We have an energy crisis of almost epic porportions, global climate change that has put the Polar Bear on the endangered species list, green house gasses pouring out countries like India, Pakistan, and China. We are fighting two wars with no end in sight. Oh, did I forget to mention North Korea and Iran creating nuclear weapons and G-d know who else is too! Oh, wait, I forgot Osama Bin Laden, still perfectly alive and planning his next attack on the United States. Seriously, Rick, Just Cause, STW, Second Alamo, AWCHeney etc, is illegal immigration really were we want the focus of our collective energy as a nation? We need a secure border, but not as a measure to keep out people looking to work hard for their money, but to ensure that we know who is entering our country that may want to do us harm.
Hello, I am new here. I am a 48 year old guy that has lived all his life(except for 1987-1999 in the Atlanta,Ga. area)in Manassas.My Grandad was a sharecropper on Hynson farm.My great uncle was I.J Breeden…he used to own most of the land here(didn’t help me,I am laid off ,trying to get by)I have always had friends of all ethnic groups…so do not pull that racism stuff on me.I have legal friends and neighbors that are Hispanic that feel 100% amnesty is a slap in their face.They jumped through the hoops…so they do not like people cutting in line. I understand people wanting, needing a better life for themselves and their children. But there is only so much room in one place. I see a lot of unnecessary hatred and name calling here. Ethnic cleansing? Give me a break.That is B.S. I know that Manassas will never be like it was when I was a kid in the 1960’s and 70’s,but you people do not understand that we life long residents feel like we are in a foreign place sometimes, and that can be very uncomfortable for the folks that grew up here.We need to somehow come together,enclaves of people that set up their own little communities do not help(ie:Georgetown South)Lets stop pointing fingers and try to get together,compromising is the American way…if you don’t believe that READ YOUR HISTORY BOOKS
Add horrible flooding–the worst in 500 years and the most deadly tornadoes in I don’t know how long to the list of things that endanger America. We are in hurricane season now and we have no idea what that will bring.
Secure borders are mandatory. It is a matter of national security. However, we are not going to deport millions of people so give it up. To my way of thinking, the more we can do to help newcomers, or relative newcomers feel more American, the safer all of us will be.
One only has to look to Great Britain and France to see what happens when immigrants are not made to feel like they are integral members of the society in which they live.
This board has drifted so far to the one side it isn’t worth our time coming here for those of us who are on the other side and hope to have reasonable debate. Reading this thread has confirmed what I’ve been suspecting the past few days.
AWCheney said it best: “misusing terms such as “ethnic cleansing,” on BOTH sides of an issue are very much responsible for persuading people that there is no reasonable compromise, or middle ground, to be reached.”
I would also add that lots of other terms have been misused here too – racist, Holocaust, and so on.
After a few days of just reading this board and not commenting on anything (since it usually is a waste of time and it is clear no one is listening or looking for a “reasonable compromise between the two sides”) I’ve decided it isn’t worth my time or energy to keep even reading this blog – since the extremists have taken over this blog and it is riddled with misused terms such as “ethnic cleansing”, “racists”, etc. It is no better than the other blog, and both are pretty much a waste of time unless you happen to totally agree with one of the two sides. A moderate who is looking for solutions will find none on either of the blogs.
And here is what I mean by moderates looking for solutions will have no place here on this blog:
LuckyDuck said:
While I will agree that a pathway is a middle ground, there should never, ever,be 100% amnesty. Some people should not be allowed to stay. If they have a criminal record, if the person has been deported before (it is a felony in the United States to return after being deported) or if they are committing Identity theft, they should not be eligible for any pathway to citizenship.
Mackie replied:
Yadda, yadda, yadda…on and on forever…I hope you’ve packed your radiation suit.
It’s a waste of time trying to find a middle ground here. There is none to be found.
WHWN says:
This thread has some common ground forming on that regard.
I am glad WHWN thinks so. It doesn’t look that way for me – the only common ground I see is everyone gets amnesty, no exceptions, nothing. I saw nothing wrong with what LuckyDuck was saying, but again any attempts to do anything other than 100% amnesty for everyone, aren’t considered on this blog. So it is a waste of time to read any more – the position of this blog is obviously 100% amnesty, no exceptions. Any movement from that position appears to be unlikely in the extreme. Apparently people who commit identity theft, have been deported before, etc. all should be granted amnesty.
That is why I’ve decided reading this blog is pointless. That appears to be the position, as anyone who takes a position that says amnesty should not be granted to those types of people, their ideas are discounted here and the silly personal attacks ensue, and the terms of “ethnic cleansing”, “racist”, “Nazi” are dragged out, for the 1000th time.
Consider this my last post and also my last time reading this blog. Maybe you’ll find a “common solution” but I highly doubt it. This blog is so far tilted to the one side of the debate – it is mirror image of BVBL – which is tilted to the other side. There’s no room for moderates on either side, on either blog.
Interesting, LPOW, that people have to agree with you for you to decide that a blog is worthy of your time. I consider myself a moderate and I certainly don’t personally agree with everyone here. Yet somehow, I find that is is worthy of my time.
On the other hand, I could get off my duff and go start my own blog and tell people up front that they have to agree with me or stay off my blog. I bet that blog would soon be like the song, “One is the loneliest Number.” I would have to be on there arguing with myself!
You can get solutions from here or from bvbl. Yes, I said bvbl. How on earth do you even assess the situation if you don’t know how people feel about an issue? Learn the issues and write your local respresentatives. Start your own blog and label it moderate. Plenty of people would come visit it. I enjoy reading other people’s opinions. If it is a topic that doesn’t interest me, well, I skip it.
Elena said:
“The point Mackie makes, however “convoluted” it may seem to some, is this, we do have REAL serious issues facing this country,and terrorism is one of them. We are taking our eye off the ball by being distracted by another red herring of scapegoating a specific group in what WOULD have been THE battle call to win another election.”
Your point being? Like I said, the border needs to be secured. Period. Who cares what the reasons are. Just secure it. I’d hazzard to guess that an OVERWHELMING majority of U.S. citizens want a secure border yet it’s still not secure and the extremes are arguing semantics.
Asinine.
LPOW,
I am incredulous of your examples of how moderates have no place on this blog. Let’s see, Lucky duck posted. He is moderate. Awcheney posted. She is conservative. Juturna posted, she is moderate. WHWN posted. He is progressive. Mackie is probably a liberal. There are all different types of people here, coming from a variety of opinions.
Yes, it got spirited around here yesterday. Is that a bad thing? I don’t think so. I didn’t agree totally with either awcheney or with mackie. But both contributors made interesting points.
It isn’t always going to be just as you want it to be, LPOW.
Moon Howler – I think he took his marbles and left. There are countries left in this world where opposition is not found…….
I am still overwhelmed with Mackie’s view of our future. Personnally, I think we would be irresponsible to discount it – I know I have harboured similar thoughts and it scares me. He pulled my head out of the sand on that one.
Makes me think of Timothy – pray for a simple life.
Mando, how are you going to secure the border short of establishing a large military force there? Presently, the likely candidates for that job are in Iraq. Are you willing to pay substantially more federal tax to make it happen? If not, how do you propose funding border security?
There must be some technology that would work at the borders. It doesn’t have to be perfect but it has to be enough of a deterrent.
And how about all those ocean borders on both sides of the country? How about the Canadian borders? Thousands of miles of borders to secure. Seems like a huge task to me. I think the borders should be secured. I also think everything coming in in crates needs to be checked. We are vigilant about planes and rather careless about ships.
What would it take to make this happen and will we be able to do it? Israel has been as successful as any country. Yet they still have terrorist attacks. They are much smaller than we are and I also would not offer up Israel as a model of human rights.
Difficult questions for the 21st century. Difficult questions for America.
The best way to secure the borders, aside from a military presence, is strengthening and enforcing the laws involved in violating that border. Personally, I believe we should adopt the Mexican immigration laws…they rock! Besides, that would be poetic justice.
“Mando, how are you going to secure the border short of establishing a large military force there?”
I’m not going to secure the border. That’s the job of the people that take a large cut of my paycheck and I’m absolutely positive it can be done. There are a wide variety of methods both manual and automated.
Mando, so name the methods. Are you willing to pay more for more security than we have at present?
AWCheney, are you willing to pay more for the larger staff to catch the scofflaws and more for the increased court costs to prosecute them?
Censored, would you like to pay less in entitlements such as Medicaid, low income housing, welfare, criminal enforcement of identity theft and other illegal crimes (the new organized crime), etc, etc.? Increased enforcement of laws against illegal immigration just on the local level has already impacted the flow of illegal immigrants across our border.
I’ll tell you, if it weren’t for the flood of illegal aliens over the border that has impacted us so egregiously for so many years now, I’d be all in favor of creating a new refugee status for those currently fleeing, or wishing to flee, the drug wars along the Mexican border. As it stands now, my sympathy is limited.