321 Thoughts to “Come out to “economic party” number 4!”

  1. Mando

    “Mando, so name the methods. Are you willing to pay more for more security than we have at present?”

    How about they use some of those billions of dollars they’re spending on bridges to nowhere and saving the last five blue striped dung beetles and the myriad of other insane projects. Use that money to strengthen the border. That’s what I want. I want the money I already fork up to be used a little more wisely.

  2. Censored bybvbl

    AWCheney, I’m very liberal when it comes to social policy and more fiscally conservative. Sometimes those two stands are very much at odds. I’d like to see funding cut for some welfare programs but I realize that in the meantime funding may have to be increased to educate/train people who would be expected to make that change. I believe more money needs to be spent on affordable housing. Anyone who fails to see the connection between overcrowding and high housing costs is blind in my opinion. Actually, I’m not adverse to paying higher taxes. The Republican mantra of “no new taxes” has resulted in a crappy infrastructure in many areas. There’s no such thing as a free ride (at least not for long).

    Increased enforcement of laws against illegal immigration just on the local level has already impacted the flow of illegal immigrants across our border.
    I’m not sure that that can be proved to be the case. The slowdown in the economy may have more to do with any decrease – if we’re sure there’s been a decrease. It may just be that fewer are caught.

    Mando, I don’t like porkbarrel projects either. But we have to be willing to turn down projects that may end up in Virginia or PWC in order to be without blame ourselves. How many times is that done? And of course, don’t overlook the biggest money pit – George Bush’s war.

  3. Mando

    “Mando, I don’t like porkbarrel projects either. But we have to be willing to turn down projects that may end up in Virginia or PWC in order to be without blame ourselves. How many times is that done? And of course, don’t overlook the biggest money pit – George Bush’s war.”

    Although the last line is a little loaded (not saying Iraq isn’t a money pit though), sign me up.

  4. Juturna

    The in-car camera request submitted by the Chairman is porkbarrel. Just FYI.

  5. Juturna

    Censored – So you are saying we need to make an investment in our country?! What a novel idea. Government as a rule is not strategic. I think we are ALL saying being more strategic with our resources is long over due at all levels of government. We are going to have to spend money to fix this. No doubt. And, as long as illegals are basically endorsed here, I prefer they have health care for all our sakes.

    I have far less sympathy for the layabouts we have here that are legal and all the nonsense that comes with them. If illegals can somehow make it on wages that no American would accept then why can’t the louts we have make it? Maybe they should be held up as an example?

    Give them, the hard workers, the family people, those willing to do what they have to to provide for their families the opportunity.

  6. Mando

    “The in-car camera request submitted by the Chairman is porkbarrel. Just FYI.”

    That’s relative. Most jurisdiction ALREADY use in car cameras. Seen any of those cop shows lately?

  7. Juturna

    Yup. Ask them how many lawsuits those cowboys have….. That’s why they are on TV; to raise revenue for themsevles. They are crazy. You are referring to “bad boys….”? They are a jurisdictions attorney’s nightmare.

    Otherwise you would be referring to TV shows and we know they are all real and worry about revenue.

    Again, pork is only pork when someone else does it. 🙂

  8. Moon-howler

    Mando,

    I believe that Juturna meant that the request for grant money by the chair was an example of porkbarrel. (having nothing to do with the need for cameras, only the financing of cameras)

  9. Mando

    Wasn’t refering to COPS… they have there own camera man. I’m talking about the other shows… like the one where the drunk chick accused the cop of propositioning her to get out of the ticket then when they looked at the tape, it was the other way around… 😉

  10. Mando

    @ Moon-howler

    I hear ya. The porkiest of the pork shouldn’t stand up to good cost-benefit analysis.

  11. Elena

    Wecome Russ,
    “Ethnic cleansing? Give me a break.That is B.S. I know that Manassas will never be like it was when I was a kid in the 1960’s and 70’s,but you people do not understand that we life long residents feel like we are in a foreign place sometimes, and that can be very uncomfortable for the folks that grew up here.We need to somehow come together,enclaves of people that set up their own little communities do not help”

    But aren’t you saying the converse in relation to your community from the 60’s and 70’s, that the “life long residents feel like we are in a foreign place” now that a different group has moved in ? Wasn’t your community an “enclave” of “your” group?

    It seems clear to me that the community is struggling with a demographic change that has nothing to do with illegal immigration, but everything to do with people looking and sounding different than the people you grew up with in the ” 60’s and 70’s”.

  12. Red Dawn

    I guess it doesn’t matter WHERE you grew up…. just the FREEDOM of YESTERDAY in an UNCOMPLICATED world.

    “TO ALL THE KID S WHO SURVIVED the 1930’s, 40’s, 50’s, 60’s and 70’s!!

    First, we survived being born to mothers who smoked and/or drank while they were pregnant.

    They took aspirin, ate blue cheese dressing, tuna from a can, and didn’t get tested for diabetes.

    Then after that trauma, we were put to sleep on our tummies in baby cribs covered with bright colored lead-based paints.

    We had no childproof lids on medicine bottles, doors or cabinets and when we rode our bikes, we had no helmets, not to mention, the risks we took hitchhiking.

    As infants &children, we would ride in cars with no car seats, booster seats, seat belts or air bags.

    Riding in the back of a pick up on a warm day was always a special treat.

    We drank water from the garden hose and NOT from a bottle.

    We shared one soft drink with four friends, from one bottle and NO ONE actually died from this.

    We ate cupcakes, white bread and real butter and drank Kool-aid made with sugar, but we weren’t overweight because, WE WERE ALWAYS OUTSIDE PLAYING!

    We would leave home in the morning and play all day, as long as we were back when the streetlights came on.

    No one was able to reach us all day. And we were O.K.

    We would spend hours building our go-carts out of scraps and then ride down the hill, only to find out we forgot the brakes After running into the bushes a few times, we learned to solve the problem.

    We did not have Play stations, Nintendo’s, X-boxes, no video games at all, no 150 channels on cable, no video movies or DVD’s, no surround-sound or CDs, no cell phones, no personal computers, no Internet or chat rooms…….

    WE HAD FRIENDS and we went outside and found them!

    We fell out of trees, got cut, broke bones and teeth and there were no lawsuits from these accidents.

    We ate worms and mud pies made fro m dirt, and the worms did not live in us forever.

    We were given BB guns for our 10th birthdays, made up games with sticks and tennis balls and, although we were told it would happen, we did not put out very many eyes.

    We rode bikes or walked to a friend’s house and knocked on the door or rang the bell, or just walked in and talked to them!

    Little League had tryouts and not everyone made the team. Those who didn’t had to learn to deal with disappointment. Imagine that!!

    The idea of a parent bailing us out if we broke the law was unheard of. They actually sided with the law!

    These generations have produced some of the best risk-takers, problem solvers and inventors ever!

    The past 50 years have been an explosion of innovation and new ideas.

    We had freedom, failure, success and responsibility, and we learned HOW TO DEAL WITH IT ALL!

    If YOU are one of them, CONGRATULATIONS!

    You might want to share this with others who have had the luck to grow up as kids, before the lawyers and the government regulated so much of our lives for our own good .

    While you are at it, forward it to your kids so they will know how brave (and lucky) their parents were.

    Kind of makes you want to run through the house with scissors, doesn’t it?!

    The quote of the month is by Jay Leno:

    “With hurricanes, tornadoes, fires out of control, mud slides, flooding, severe thunderstorms tearing up the country from one end to another, and with the threat of bi rd flu and terrorist attacks, are we sure this is a good time to take God out of the Pledge of Allegiance?”

    For those that prefer to think that God is not watching over us…go ahead and delete this.”

  13. Rick Bentley

    “It seems clear to me that the community is struggling with a demographic change that has nothing to do with illegal immigration, but everything to do with people looking and sounding different than the people you grew up with in the ” 60’s and 70’s”. ”

    This is a point I’ve wanted to make. We in PWC are/were not generally a bunch of redneck bigots. If we had antipathy towards Hispanics in general or towards immigrants or towards people who don’t speak English, it would have manifested itself prior to the last couple of years and we would not have become a magnet for illegal immigrants.

    But in fact we sat and nodded tolerantly as suddenly bunches of illegal aliens furtively bought up and moved into (and frequently overcrowded) houses in our neighborhoods. Many of us, like myself, only developed an antipathy towards illegal immigration AS A DIRECT RESULT of trying to live next to these people and becoming ACQUAINTED FIRST-HAND with the way they lived and thought, and their general perception that our laws are a joke to be ignored and our cultural values the same.

    You should wake up, grow up, stop thinking in naive terms and face the reality of what happened here. The problem is not that we did not open our hearts and try to befriend these people. I made an effort to welcome my new neigbbors and try to be nice to them, until it became obvious that it was my fate to live next a noisy house and become stressed out every day by their behavior (never a dull moment). WE GOT TO KNOW THEM, AND COLLECTIVELY, WE DO NOT LIKE THEM for tangible reasons.

    If you haven’t personally lived through this and seen the neighborhood your house sits in become a magnet for hundreds of illegal immigrants, then you should maybe spend more time listening to people who lived throigh this and less spouting your pollyana-ish perspective on how all we really need to do to live in peace and harmony is to learn to embrace diversity and learn to love it. I have no love for what I lived through.

  14. Leaving Point of Woods

    Rick Bentley – agree 100% with what your entire post above. Good post. My experience is very much like yours.

    And this snippet from your post sums it up perfecty: “If you haven’t personally lived through this and seen the neighborhood your house sits in become a magnet for hundreds of illegal immigrants, then you should maybe spend more time listening to people who lived throigh this”.

    If someone lived with what me or you have put up with, for a year or more, I bet their perspective on things might change a bit. Especially when it is only possible to get 3-4 hours of sleep a night. Sleep deprivation is not good for ones health or mental attitude – and I’ve been sleep deprived for the past several years! And the police have been by too many times in the wee hours of the night to tell these people to stop blasting music. It is evident they don’t care, not a wit, about their neighbors.

  15. Rick Bentley

    The PWC Police were helpful to me in terms of trying to get the neighbors to stop, but the overgrown jerk living in a small children’s bedroom with his boombox kept doing it. I called the cops 10-15 times, and they were mostly helpful.

  16. Chris

    Rick and LPOW,

    I have lived next to the same type of behavior in my neighborhood too. It used to never be a dull moment around here. Now, it’s a lot tamer than it once was. I’ve tried meeting new neighbors unfortunately as you spoke of. NOT all are willing to meet their new neighbors. Now that makes it difficult to be neighborly and try to live together. I’ve lived next door to immigrants my entire life. All but one group that lived in house were Amercian citizens’ and conducted themselves in such a manner. The nice group of about 15 in a three bedroom house chose to squat in the house for two months after it was foreclosed on had a lovely poster of good ole Che Guevara over their basement window. This “gents” had no interest what so ever in meeting and assimilating. They went non stop there. They had a prostetute get taken away from the house. While squatting for two months they were continually stripping the house of all appliances and light fixtures. Three refridgerators, two stoves, two washers and dryers. Geesh, I could go on and on. Now, who on God’s green earth want to put up with all of that?

    By the same token I’ve lived next door to Germans, Brit, and Guatamalens all of which were legal naturalized citizens. Hell, my Guatamalen neighbor left WestGate because she didn’t like how the neighborhood had changed. I’ve been to all three of her daughters Quincenera’s. I felt honored to be invited to take part in such a special event in these young ladies lives. For those that have not been to one of these parties, you have no idea what a great event you are missing out on. My family and a couple of other neighbors went too. I am the ony one that made it to ALL three. Yet, I’ve been called many horrible names. None of which I am. But, I guess when you don’t have a leg to stand on some just simply resort to name calling.

    I’ve truly seen immigrants from both sides of the debate if you will. Trust me, there’s a difference. At least with from what I’ve experienced. I’ve wrote letters to help former employees that were on their way to becoming US CITIZENS. I am understanding of one’s desire to come to our great nation. However, we can’t take each and every person that wants to come here. We need a secure border and immigration reform yesterday. Our federal government must take action sooner than later.

  17. Leaving Point of Woods

    The City of Manassas police would get them quieted down for a day or two, and then it would start up again. After calling the police many times, I finally figured the police had better things to do (real crime to solve) than to get my noisy neighbors to shut off their stereo at 2 AM in the morning. I felt I was just wasting police resources and also it would just continue ad infinitum (I call the police, the police come, they quiet down for 2 days, and the cycle repeats). It was my private version of the movie “Groundhog Day”. I concluded the people in the house next to me, as well as others like them in various other houses, have no respect for their neighbors, and think only of themselves. And unfortunately, the neighborhood was not like this until 3-4 years ago.

    As in your case, the police were helpful, but I just felt like I was wasting their time and my time by repeatedly calling them. If someone doesn’t get the message after the 3rd or 4th time, it is obvious it is a pointless exercise!

    And in the case of this blog – I find the same thing true – all I hear back is that “community outreach” should have worked. Why do people need to be told about common courtesies, and no amount of community outreach is going to stop criminals bent on breaking into neighbors’ houses, (as well as other unlawful activity – some of which is arguably more minor such as not having valid city stickers on all cars) – which is what occurred in my own personal case.

    I’d like to have thought there was some better solution, but I’m convinced there isn’t. The only solution would be for people like these to move somewhere else. Are they all illegal aliens? Probably not. Are some of them? Definitely. Are all illegal aliens bad? No. Are all Hispanics bad? Definitely not. But the ones who are in my neighborhood – at least on my block and those adjacent to me, definitely fall in the “bad” category.

    Anyway, I feel like I’ve made these statements before, but I know what the responses will be to them. That is why I’ve kind of said what I wanted to here, and really don’t seem much point in posting any further.

  18. Leaving Point of Woods

    Chris,

    When the initial occupants of the house next to me moved in (they change every few months or half a year) I tried being friendly but attempts to even shake their hand met with blank stares. They seemed to be in the group unwilling to meet their neighbors. And my other neighbors had the same experience, both with the people in this house and the two houses across the street (fortunately those are now foreclosures – because those people stupidly paid $350,000 or so for each of those two townhouses!).

    Anyway, I’m sure that there are cases where things work out well, but at least on my block, and blocks adjacent to it, they haven’t. After 3-4 years of putting up with it, and the decline in the neigbhorhood (the increased noise and trash and other things) as my name implies – I’m leaving the neighborhood. So that’s my personal solution to it, since these people are unwilling to adjust their behavior and in recent months it seems to have gotten worse. And I don’t know who or what will move into those foreclosure houses across the street, but I am not willing to wait and see if it is an improvement or not. It is a little quieter without those two houses being occupied, unfortunately they were not as much of a problem as the house next to me – although they were loud and noisy at all hours of the night too.

    Right now, with the house next to me, there’s never a dull moment. There was a lot of police activity about 2 weeks ago there, and I found out one of the people there is a rape suspect. It is a small sample of what I’d had to put up with the past few years. Before that, there were people of other ethnicities (including Hispanic) living in the neighborhood, but they were quiet and law abiding. I’m not sure what happened, but as those kinds of people moved out, a new kind moved in, and the neighborhood started to decline rapidly – about 3 years ago by my estimate.

    Anyway, I’ve said all of this before in other posts, and am repeating myself, so I’ll stop. And I can predict the responses I’ll get – as they come from people who never have had to put up with this kind of situation. Again, let one of them live a year next to what I live next to, and see how your feelings about the whole immigration debate change. In fact, illegal immigration wasn’t something I had much opinion of before a year ago, I’d say. Until it hits you on a daily basis, and totally impacts the quality of your life (sleep is a precious commodity at my house) – you just don’t have any idea of the affect it will have on your opinions and perceptions about the entire issue.

  19. Leaving Point and Rick, I do have sympathy for your situations and as I’ve admitted before I do not encounter undocumented immigrants where I live or where I work. This is my attempt to find common ground with you.

    I fully recognize that your up-close-and-personal encounters are the reasons for your discomfort. Let me share with you some of mine. I grew up with an idea of Virginia, and America, as a nation founded by European settlers and made great by their descendants. African Americans were also great contributors, they were part of our society, but largely separate. Their rights as Americans were to be protected because equality was a founding principle of our nation, and because we had so wronged them in the past. In the past four decades, we have learned to welcome increasing numbers of other minorities who came here, including Asians, Hispanics, and immigrants from Africa and the Middle East. Given that the “American Melting Pot” is every bit as much a symbol of who we are as “All Men Are Created Equal,” it seemed to me that the inclusion of these new minorities was a natural progression toward a more perfect union.

    In recent years, however, we have been confronted with the possibility that one of these minorities might grow to actually out number us. This challenges our basic notion of what America is … the notion I listed first, that we were founded by European settlers, made great by their descendants, and, we assumed, forever a white majority.

    I know my own awareness of this challenge to my idea of America is not as visceral as the way in which you two have come to dislike your Hispanic (probably undocumented) neighbors. But it is related. In both cases, we have to make a fundamental decision about who we are as Americans, and in both cases we have a choice to make.

    In my case, the choice is obvious. The only way to reverse the “browning of America” is to return to the immigration laws we had before 1965, where quotas were enforced to make sure that non-white immigrants did not upset the racial balance. This is profoundly un-American, and there is no public support for this regression, as (F.A.I.R. learned the hard way during the first 3 decades of its existence).

    We can and will accept the fact that, although this nation was founded by European settlers, there were millions of people already here. Although many of the Native Americans perished within the shifting boundaries we drew, there were many more who lived to the south of us. Some of them saw these boundaries leap right over them: they were Mexicans one day, and Americans the next. Others have migrated here. Some before we created immigration laws, some after. But as with all other epochs of human history, migration and genetics has led to a blending of different cultures and different bloodlines. The principles on which our nation was founded made it part of our destiny to become a blended nation we are becoming today. Our proximity to South and Central America, where the vanquishing of native peoples was not as thorough as it was in our territories, has made the “white majority” impossible to maintain forever.

    Here is where we most likely agree:

    It would be preferable to have America’s skin color darken a bit, and even part with the notion of a “white majority” … than to alter or adulterate the ideals of equality under the law, freedom of speech, freedom of expression, equal opportunity, civil rights, human rights, etc. For all the wrestling we do over the word “patriotic,” I’m sure most Americans agree with me that we should protect the ideals on which this nation was founded LONG BEFORE we protect our ethnic break-down.

    And here is where we disagree:

    Rick and Leaving Point, you have seen your neighborhood change, and come to dislike a group of people which we can be defined as, or at least assumed to be, undocumented immigrants. This change in your neighborhood, and this change in you, is not ideal. The quality of your neighborhood has gone down (it was middle class, and now seems lower than that), your property value has gone down. You have have also lost your peace of mind, and perhaps a degree of friendliness.

    But this, I would argue, would be preferable to losing the ideals I have mentioned above, certainly for those of us who do not directly suffer what you suffer, but also I would argue for those who do. If we want to solve the problems that your new neighbors have created, perhaps we should look to less drastic solutions like lobbying for affordable housing, instead of lobbying for police intervention.

    No matter where you live in this county, the October 16th version of the Immigration Resolution was a huge departure, a VERY BIG change. I found that change to be scary, and I hope you can sympathize. I’m glad that the law has been neutered by the repeal of Probable Cause. I hope you agree. I agree with you that the changes you are seeing in your neighborhoods are scary as well. Our goal should be to find solutions that avoid or mitigate your problems without creating new ones for the rest of us.

    Because of the demands of people made angry by similar neighborhood concerns, we have seen our leaders submit to drastic changes that terrorized many, deeply concerned many more, damaged our ability to care for our elderly and our children, damaged our economy, and damaged our reputation. Now that the Immigration Resolution has been scaled back, let’s agree to be civil and welcoming to our neighbors, to uphold our America’s founding principles, and to facilitate the process of assimilation as a cure for the cultural differences that caused us to take this understandable but unfortunate misstep.

  20. Rick Bentley

    I’m not worried about the “Browning of America”. My wife and kids are black. I’m worried about quality of life degrading and wages declining.

    The changes in my neighborhood are fine – nearly every foreclosure I’ve seen was in houses that seemingly held illegal aliens and multiple families. My neighborhood has become a quiet place again, where parents feel they can let their kids play outdoors. I much prefer it. The families that are moving in aren’t all white, by the way.

    Furthermore I don’t think threatening to deport someone who knowingly smuggled themself in here at great cost qualifies as “terrorizing” them. That’s laughable.

    As an aside, I also want to second what Leaving Point said about not all new neighbors wanting to be friendly. My first encounter with the illegals who moved in next door was them looking at us with outright hostility when we tried to say hello. I guess they were angry that in our naivite we thought they might speak English.

  21. Leaving Point of Woods

    WHWN: While I live in the City of Manassas – as far as the resolution is concerned, I personally feel removing the probable cause part was a good thing. That removed the most controversial part, and personally – I’m happy with the resolution as it now stands. I know many on this board are not however, but it is something we will have to disagree on.

    Rick – I sort of had the same first experience with the neighbors next to me as you had(although that house changes occupants every 3-6 months so hard to know if any original occupants are there any more). And it wasn’t only me – other people on the block who tried to introduce themselves to these people have had the same experiences. Almost the “outright hostility” you encountered. And they are very hostile to my wife who is Chinese – they glare at her from their deck when she works in the garden outside. She moved in with me 2 years ago after they were already here, and she tried to be friendly to them when she first moved here as she looked foward to meeting her new neighbors – but was shocked at how they seemed to not be interested in attempts at a simple hello. So I can cite multiple cases of various people trying to be friendly toward this house (as well as the two houses across the street that are now in foreclosure) and being met with almost the “outright hostility” that you refer to. It shocked me at first, but I just take it now as part of the general attitude of not caring about their neighbors, not wanting to conform to social norms or follow rules.

    A few years before that, several Hispanic families were in the neighborhood, and they seemed friendly and when I’d walk the dog they and their children would come up to pet the dog – always asking (sometimes struggling with their English) if the dog was friendly. I was able to figure out what they said, and told them yes, the dog is very friendly and likes children, and it all worked out fine.

    I think I’ve said before, once these Hispanic FAMILIES moved out, other Hisapanic NON-FAMILIES moved in, and that’s where the troubles began. And it isn’t just isolated to my street, it is prevalent throughout the entire neighborhood. I think even the law abiding Hispanic families have left the neighborhood! What is left are mostly what appears to be single males (maybe they are married and their families live elsewhere) who seem to not care about the neighborhood or respecting neighbors by not blaring music in the middle of the night, etc. etc. To me, if the resolution chases these people out, so much the better. Of course, being in the city limits, the resolution has no effect, but then again you have to pass through the county to get to the city.

    And I’ll say this – if the resolution chases these people out, and lets in law abiding Hispanic families, again, so much the better! What I don’t want is more of the kind of people we have in the neighborhood now.

    Then again, as I said before, I’m leaving the neighborhood anyway – but still have to suffer for another 4 months and I’m hoping against hope that nothing too terrible happens during that time. Living next to people I know are not law abiding, gives me no peace of mind, particularly when one former occupant was caught breaking into my house.

  22. Leaving Point of Woods

    WHWN: And yes, I forgot to comment, we do agree that diversity is a good thing. But not the kind of diversity in my neighborhood right now. The kind of diversity in it a few years back, with regular Hispanic families (and what appeared to be one family per townhouse) is fine. But the kind of diversity in the neighborhood now, what I will call BAD diversity, it not a good thing. But yes, I think we do agree about diversity in general. And obviously – in both Rick’s case (from what he wrote) and my case, we are both married to non-Caucasian women, and in his case he has children. I don’t, only because I’ve only been married 2 years, and at my age (I won’t say what it is) I’m not really thinking about children as I would be retired by the time they reached college age – and I’d rather have money when I’m retired than paying huge college bills!

  23. Leaving Point of Woods

    WHWN: As far as your last statement – “Now that the Immigration Resolution has been scaled back, let’s agree to be civil and welcoming to our neighbors, to uphold our America’s founding principles, and to facilitate the process of assimilation as a cure for the cultural differences that caused us to take this understandable but unfortunate misstep.”

    I submit that at least as far as the 3 problem houses on my block (2 of which are now vacant – but again I’m sure NOT because of the resolution but because their owners bought houses they could not afford) – those people were NOT interested in assimilating. If they were, they wouldn’t have showed no interest in meeting their neighbors, or coexisting peacefully with their neighbors. And I’m afraid I have no reason to believe that there aren’t many more houses in the neighborhood just like these 3 houses. Ride around the neighborhood late at night, and there’s lot of general noise and stereo blasting, which there wasn’t a few short years ago. Does it all come from Hispanic houses? I’m sure it doesn’t. Although on my block it does. Again, I’d say that those types of people (again, not all Hispanics but the non-traditional family type that seems attracted to my neighborhood) has no interest in assimilating, and any attempts to get them to do so are fruitless.

    Are we going to then spend large amounts of money for social programs to help them assimilate? It is clear they don’t want to, and I hate wasting money. I believe it would be a huge waste of my tax dollars.

    The people that want to assimilate already are – and those who don’t, I’m afraid I have to take the position that if the resolution forces those people to move to some other county – then I say it is a good thing. And again, I think the resolution as it now stands (without the probable cause piece) is a good thing.

  24. Rick Bentley

    Funny how some want to label the rule of law as “terrorizing” people, but the kind of thing that’s driving you out of your neighborhood and had me thinking of leaving mine is to be taken and tolerated. I can tell you I felt somewhat “terrorized” by what was happening. No one wants music bumping through their walls and no one wants to live in a neighborhood where so many adults come and go so frequently with law enforcement having no way to track who lives where.

    I’m sorry to hear your situation is still so bad. Mine did get better.

  25. Leaving Point of Woods

    Glad your situation has gotten better. I kept hoping mine would, but I’ve lost my optimism in that respect. I do agree that indeed, I feel under constant attack by the music thumping through the walls, the trash that is tossed in my back yard and throughout the neighborhood (including broken bottles), and the general feeling of lawlessness. Yet we are supposed to be sympathetic to these people, who seem to be unwilling to be sympathetic to us in return by not trashing up our neighborhood, and at least keeping the stereos down to a reasonable level after 11 PM at night. Although during the day would be nice too on the weekend, but I suppose that’s asking a bit much!

    I’m afraid I’ve lost a lot of sympathy for those who show none in return.

  26. Chris

    LPOW,
    I hear you loud and clear regarding repeating yourself. I’ve told my stories for over a year now, and have photographed a lot of what I’ve spoken and written about. I’ve not written much over the past few months nor have I been photographing. However, while in the City of Manassas on Peabody accross from the old PWC Police Station. There was a house that very neat, flying the American flag, and it had been flocked with hot pink flamingos. Now, I did whip my camera out for that one. I remember about 15yrs ago people would wake up one morning to find their yards a sea of pink. I’m not sure if this house had done it themselves or had they been “flocked”.

    Our neighborhoods back up to one another we have very similar problems in the single family homes of WestGate of which I am a NATIVE of. I think most have read, seen and heard my stories. We’ve had four houses purchased out of the once twelve vacant on block alone. I do feel better days are ahead. It will take some time, effort and energy on the parts of the truly concerned citizens. These current situation did NOT happen overnight, and it most certainly will NOT go away overnight.

    The resolution is now finalized hopefully, and the time to move forward is upon us. I wonder how long before they do some more tweeking on it or will they finally stick with a program and see it out. I hope it’s the latter.

  27. hello

    I’m starting to get a little miffed about this whole “economic party”. Don’t get me wrong, it’s a great idea but don’t you think you need to branch out a bit? I’m sure there are other places hurting for business but it doesn’t seem like anyone is gung-ho about having an “economic party” for them. Just because a place doesn’t serve Hispanic food doesn’t mean they might need a party as well. I would be interested in seeing where the next party will be and maybe I may go to meet and talk with some of you over a beer or something.

  28. Rick Bentley, Leaving Point of Woods, and Chris,

    No one is saying that there weren’t problems that needed to be addressed. Bad neighbors are bad neighbors whether they’re documented or not. If they are violating zoning restrictions by turning homes into motels, that’s something that needed to be addressed, etc.

    However, I’m saying that wholesale bloodless Ethnic Cleansing was definitely not the answer.

    You have noted that the problem had everything to do with the behavior of your neighbors. So that means that the immigration status was not of concern to you until Greg came to you and whispered in your ear ‘Psst, if we pass some laws to check immigration status, we can force these people to leave and your neighborhoods will go back to normal’.

    You desires to live your lives in peace and frustrations are perfectly normal. Greg took advantage of the situation and exploited it to enact a draconian law to expel a whole community that he said in his own words ‘they’re not adding anything to the culture here’. He wasn’t just talking about your neighbors. He was talking about all immigrants, and used the bad behavior of your neighbors as a lightning rod to galvanize support.

    If you doubt what I said, didn’t you see this video:
    http://www.antibvbl.net/index.php/2008/06/10/illegal-immigration-is-complicated/
    He states that a family woman with children here, who suffered so much to get here and now owns a home and runs a business should be deported and he says it makes him happy to know she lives her life in fear. Is she one of these bad neighbors you have been describing. No, she isn’t. But you see…Greg doesn’t care how decent she is. He wants people to look at her and think criminal, gang member, tax evader, etc. Why does he want people to think that when the woman is a model member of our community? What could possibly be motivating him?

    He used you guys…

  29. hello

    Mackie, I agree that some people may have been influenced by Greg. However, I honestly would have to say that the majority of people for the resolution are not HSM members (they only have about 2,000) or are BVBL posters. So I think that your dead wrong when you say “Greg came to you and whispered in your ear ‘Psst, if we pass some laws to check immigration status…”. Like I’ve said before, I’ve never met Greg, I’ve never seen Greg in person, I’m not a member of HSM… just like a majority of the people who voted for BOCS members that would actually do something about illegal immigrantion issues rather than pretending there wasn’t a problem.

  30. Chris

    Mackie,

    I have to tell you my concern about illegal immigration began way back in 1993. When in a accident five months pregnant, and hit from the rear at 70 mph while turning into Law’s Auction parking lot. The drunken driver and the drunken passenger both admitted to be here illegally. We were in a brand new car with less than 100 miles on it and it was TOTAL LOSS. I had to get stitches in my face and my upper body was a mess. I was unable to be x-rayed and take anything for pain caused by this accident. So, there you have it. I was concerned years before Greg rode into my native county.

    Oh yes, I’ve been calling in zoning/building codes violations for years. Those too were well before Greg’s arrival to PWC.

    I really do not think you’ve read some of what I’ve posted. I am not an immigrant hater!!

    I’ve seen the videos. Thanks for caring. 🙂

  31. This has been an incredible conversation. I know I’m learning a lot. And it’s heartening to know that the people behind these names can be reasonable and express themselves evocatively and even come to agreement. I get the feeling that some of us are taking the issue very personally, like an argument we are bent on winning, just for the sake of winning, without thinking of the common good, which is the only way we should want to win in my view.

    Mackie has already replied in much the way I would have (although I would not mention ethnic cleansing because it riles people up too much). If the things that made you folks so mad were behavioral and not necessarily endemic to a particular culture or status, the best solutions like in efforts to change behavior; not causing people to leave. Whatever you want to call it, it is frightening for minorities when they see people speaking about them with such hate during county meetings. It is frightening when they’re told the Police are no longer here to protect them, that they have been enlisted by those who speak of you with hatred. Those of us who were born here all know (or I think we know) that this kind of police enforcement could never happen here in the USA. But a recent immigrant could not have known this for certain. After seeing the Board of Supervisors unanimously endorse and accept legislation written by Robert “We Are Going To Repel This Invasion One Way Or Another” Duecaster, what do you expect them to think?

    So, I think we can establish that some of us have empathy for the fear that Duecaster’s Immigration Resolution had caused. Some of us have less empathy. But I can tell from the writing of almost everyone on this blog that we are to sophisticated to have no empathy.

    It does sound that way, Rick, when you reject the arguments of those who do have empathy, or, when you post comments that seem to have a them vs. us attitude.

    But empathy, after all, is not the reason why many of us came to oppose and/or regret the Immigration Resolution. I didn’t do anything to stop it last year. This year I’m speaking out because it turns out that the policy has had all kinds of unintended consequences that impact the entire county, not just immigrants and undocumented immigrants. Our economy, our public safety, our ability to care for our parents and educate our children, our ability to compete with surrounding counties for business investment, our reputation as a tolerant and welcoming place for people who enjoy diverse communities.

    Perhaps something was gained indeed for those who lived next door to crowded houses with boom boxes. But it is a lot to ask the rest of us to lose as much as we have lost so that so few people could gain so little.

  32. hello

    WHWN – I don’t particually care for some of the people at the BOCS meetings “speaking about them with such hate during county meetings” either. I’ve seen some of the videos and don’t agree with allot of what gets said at the meetings.

    But I just have a question, you also said “It is frightening when they’re told the Police are no longer here to protect them, that they have been enlisted by those who speak of you with hatred”. Who is telling them this?

  33. Leaving Point of Woods

    Mackie,

    Greg never whispered anything in my ear. I have never met Greg, nor was I even aware of who he was until maybe February of this year believe it or not. That was after an illegal immigrant lliving next to me broke into my house, and stole a whole pile of stuff while I was on vacation (and a neighbor spotted him and ID’d him to the police).

    How about checking your facts before you jump to such conclusions.

    And no one “used me”. I was hardly aware of the resolution, being out of the country for the latter half of last year.

    To say such uninformed things like that, is utterly ridiculous.

    I see we are back to labeling everyone who doesn’t agree with the majority on this board as “Greg supporters”, “minions”, or other labels. And we are back to the ethnic cleansing nonsense.

    Fine, lump me in with Greg’s supporters if you will, if that will make you happy.

    How about living in my house for a year and see how you like it.

    I see we are back to the old “if you don’t agree with me you just agree with Greg” argument.

    Ethnic cleansing. Yeah, right. If you read my posts I never said I was against all Hispanics, but obviously you did not read them carefully enough. You just want to put on the standard label of “Greg supporter”, “racist”, etc. that apparently anyone who is on this board and doesn’t want to agree with the majority on here, is labeled.

    I can see it is fruitless to have any further discussion here. That’s what I thought a day or two ago, and then I reconsidered. Now I’m reconsidering again.

    My house will be up for rent in October. Someone who thinks they can change the neighborhood ought to put their money where their mouth is – and live in my house for a year and see what happens. It will give you a new perspective on life, I guarantee it, when you average 3-4 hours of sleep a night. Sleep deprivation is not your friend, take it from me.

  34. Leaving Point of Woods

    Chris said in reply to Mackie’s posts:

    “I really do not think you’ve read some of what I’ve posted. I am not an immigrant hater!!”

    I echo Chris’ comment above. But I’ve been on this board long enough to know, they like to label you as an immigrant hater, a racist, a Nazi, and now the new term – “ethnic cleansing” – if you don’t agree with the majority view here. Good luck trying to change their mind. I’ve been on here about a month now and have made no progress – they still fall back on the old tired labels of “Greg supporter”, “Greg’s minion”, and now the new ones of “Greg whispered in your ear”, and “Greg used you”!

    Funny that Greg used me, when I didn’t even know who he was, or even much about the resolution when it passed last year – being a City of Manassas resident, and again being out of the country for most of the latter part of last year (in South Korea actually).

  35. Leaving Point of Woods

    WHWN: You said “This has been an incredible conversation.” Incredible is right. That’s a word for it, but not the only one I’d apply.

  36. Leaving Point of Woods

    WHWN: Also you said “If the things that made you folks so mad were behavioral and not necessarily endemic to a particular culture or status, the best solutions like in efforts to change behavior”.

    I would submit that efforts to change the behavior of the occupants in the “3 problem houses” on my block would have been fruitless. And why do people need education on things like tossing trash everywhere, breaking bottles on the sidewalks and so on, blaring music all hours of the night. If you need that kind of behavior modification, it tells me there’s something really wrong. Maybe it’s just a sad commentary on society. But common sense says if you want your neighbors to welcome you and like you – you do not keep them awake at all hours of the night, toss out trash over your deck into their back yard, toss litter on common areas of the community in the hopes someone else will pick it up. As an example, they threw out an old refrigerator by tossing it into the woods behind my row of townhouses. Apparently they didn’t want to bother asking for it to be picked up by the bulk trash pickup. So their solution was to toss it in the woods. How nice of them. “Turn the woods into a garbage dump”!

    Again, that kind of behavior, in my opinion, cannot be changed, and should not need changing in the first place.

    And I’m not saying all Hispanics are like that. But the ones who have moved into the neighborhood in the past 3 years are. And again, if my posts are read CAREFULLY (which is obvious they aren’t) I said in very recent posts (which obviously weren’t read) that once upon a time, about 5 years ago, there were nice Hispanic families living in the neighborhood that coexisted well with everyone, and they even were friendly when you would be out walking the dog, etc.

    It is clear though from the comments, that it is easiest to just lump me in as someone under Greg’s influence, or one of his supporters, or a racist, or promoting ethnic cleansing.

    As far as I’m concerned, case closed on whether it is worth posting anything on this blog, as it is clear people read them, and just say to themselves “another supporter/enabler of ethnic cleansing, another Greg clone, another of Greg’s minions”, etc. etc.

  37. Leaving Point of Woods

    Chris,

    Sorry about your car accident. It is not the first story I’ve read about the consequences of being in a car accident with someone who does not have insurance.

    And I was like you with the zoning violations. I was calling in zoning violations (for the problem house next to me) as early as 3 years ago. I suspect back then Greg was not known to anyone. It was also before the City of Manassas atttempted to enact stricter zoning ordinances. So my attempts to do something about the house next to me (as well as the ones across the street) preceeded both Greg, the resolution, and the City of Manassas’ controversial zoning change attempt.

  38. Censored bybvbl

    Hello, I don’t think HSM can really claim 2000 active members. Many members were signed up at the PWC fair where people in a good mood often can be talked into signing a petition. But it’s much harder to get them actively involved. I also don’t think that it can be said that the majority of the population supported the Immigration Resolution. Too many emails to the BOCS were generated by FAIR. And , frankly, unless a person is living next door to an overcrowded house filled with boisterous guys, most residents are unaffected. That is why the resolution seemed to be gross overkill. It may have been a welcomed move by those neighborhoods affected by problems, but the trashiness of some houses should have been separated from the immigration status of the residents. The BOCS should have been more receptive to the complaints they had been hearing and added more staff and formulated some less draconian policies.

    I’d be interested in hearing exactly how people came to join HSM. Who approached you and with what argument or strategy? How did you find out about HSM? Who was leading the group? What did it promise? Was it party connected? Are you still a member? Why or why not?

    Greg is a bully. While the BOCS was still listening to him, nothing Hispanic appeared to be off-limits including the darn Christmas parade. I hope people can look back in embarassment at how he ranted on about that! Now he’s intimidating the day laborers….even running home to put on his military unie. I suppose the next step would have been making use of a open-carry permit. Good thing Officer Sanchez was called.

  39. AWCheney

    “In recent years, however, we have been confronted with the possibility that one of these minorities might grow to actually out number us. This challenges our basic notion of what America is … the notion I listed first, that we were founded by European settlers, made great by their descendants, and, we assumed, forever a white majority.”

    That is, quite simply, your prejudice and not ours WhyHereWhyNow. Don’t try to use transference to justify your own guilt by assuming that we all think the way you do.

  40. Chris

    I hate name calling that precisely what’s kept me off of the other board for the most part. I’ve been reading this board since the beginning. I’ve posted as well. I do not want to be called any name and certainly not any name associated with ANY group. I am my own independent way of thinking and acting. I am not a radical person in the least. Iam very reasonable and respectful of others even those of which I disagree with.

    The newest “ethnic cleansing” buzz phrase is getting real old just as all the buzz words/phrases on all sides.

  41. Censored bybvbl

    Does anyone in the County even know what percentage of the homes in the county were objects of overcrowding complaints? One percent? Five percent?

  42. Leaving Point of Woods

    Censored bybvbl: Don’t know the percentage in the county. In the city it was a sizeable enough percentage that it caused them to try to enact tougher rules on overcrowding, which were then met with lawsuits. Again I don’t know the percentage for the entire city. But in my neighborhood, at least on my block I can say it was 15% of the houses. It probably is an exceptional case (and an unfortunate one). Obviously many city blocks have no overcroweded houses, and others have many. But I would not be surprised if it was more than 1% of the total houses in the city. I cannot speak to the county.

  43. Chris

    Censored,

    I think for last year it was a very low number. It was so low it was probably more like a fration of a percent. I will try to dig it up. I think I have seen the number for the years in some of Ms. Casiato’s presentations. Remember, not all are willing to call violations in to zoning.
    Aren’t you glad to “see” me!! 😉

  44. Chris,

    Our justice system has two very important concepts.

    1.That people are judged as individuals, not groups, and innocent until proven guilty
    2. That the punishment should fit the crime.

    Rick Bentley, Leaving Point of Woods, and you have been providing examples of bad experiences you’ve had with people whom you assume to be illegal in some cases.

    You are not seeking to punish these people because they are undocumented. You are seeking to punish them all because a few played their stereos too loud, wouldn’t say hello, or engaged in drunk driving. The fact that you ignore that undocumented immigrants are individuals, means you have violated the first concept. The crime you care about is NOT immigration law. But you are using it to attack them all.

    Refusing to say hello is not a crime. Playing the boombox too loud probably deserves a fine. And drunk driving has it’s punishments including jail time. None of these things warrant deportation for every undocumented immigrant. The fact that you present these examples in defense of deportation means that you violate the second concept as well by administering cruel and unusual punishment. The fact that you would advocate deportation of people just because they play their stereo loudly is beyond despicable. But not only that, you advocate deportation for innocent mothers, fathers, and their children because some rude people play the boombox. Truly, it’s disgusting to me.

    I think the american way is to judge people as individuals and to avoid the cruel and unusual punishment that you embraced here.

  45. Leaving Point of Woods

    I realized I made an assumption about Chris’ story that I shouldn’t have – regarding no car insurance. They may have had car insurance and have been properly licensed – especially as it happened back in 1993. These days though, as it is hard to get a driver’s license if you aren’t a legal resident, it then stands to reason it would be impossible to get insurance if you aren’t legally licensed. And I’ve read nightmare stories about people being in accidents with an uninsured driver who happens to be an illegal immigrant. But I did jump to a conclusion on Chris’ story – which is still a very sad one.

  46. Leaving Point of Woods

    Mackie,

    Once again you are not reading my posts when you say “Rick Bentley, Leaving Point of Woods, and you have been providing examples of bad experiences you’ve had with people whom you assume to be illegal in some cases.”

    The person who broke into my house who lived next door to me, was found by the police to have no proper “documentation or identification”. Why the police were stupid and did not arrest him on the spot is a whole other story. Then, he fled that very night never to be seen again (at least so far). And his housemates, I’m sure were involved in the break-in too but the neighbor who spotted a bunch of people fleeing from my house, only positively id’d this one person.

    And I never said I was for mass deportation. Again you are making assumptions and putting words in my mouth. In fact, you’ve repeatedly made an entire range of incorrect assumptions about how I think and feel.

    I’ll echo what you said in terms of you making these kinds of assumptions and lumping me in with Greg: “Truly, it’s disgusting to me.”

    Enough said. And since incorrect assumptions continue to be made about posts I make, it really is hard to argue that it is worth posting here. Why bother, when people make stupid assumptions and put words in my mouth.

  47. Chris said:

    The newest “ethnic cleansing” buzz phrase is getting real old just as all the buzz words/phrases on all sides.

    I wonder if it sounds like a buzz phrase to those latinos around the country who are being unconstitutionally stopped and having their rights violated just because they look latino. The bloodless Ethnic Cleansing is quite real. Check the BVBL blog after the resolution took effect. Read the posts of people celebrating the absence of Brown faces at the bus stop. How about Greg comparing brown people to dog food? Your denials of the obvious are sounding more and more like what the Germans said after WW2. Remember? “We had no idea, it was going on! How could we know they were exterminating them?” If they didn’t know it was because they didn’t want to know.

    You don’t want to know.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0XwsjPkHqw

  48. For all those who support the resolution,

    I just have 2 questions here.

    Consider the unfolding disaster in Iowa. They’re calling it the worst flood in 100 years. Undoubtedly there are many undocumented immigrants lending doing their best to lend a helping hand.

    If that happened here in PWC, would you:
    1. Enforce the resolution against undocumented volunteers who admitted they were undocumented?
    2. After the floodwaters recede, continue enforcing the resolution against undocumented that had just helped you save your homes?

  49. Chris

    Mackie,

    1) I am a huge believer in innocent until proven guilty. I never once jumped on the bandwagon on bvbl when people’s reputations and professional careers were at stake such as some of the teacher threads.

    2) I believe the punishment should fit the crime. What about prostetutes hanging doing business accross the street from me. Oh, which by the way I lived next door to for 2years before moving straight accross the street. All of the squatting, etc. was going on next door to my mother. Would you like that going next door to your mother? Or these men taking a leak against the house in the front yard in front of your children?

    LPOW et al,
    The accident in 1993 was not the only one I was involved in with an ADMITTED illegal. I was lucky in the fact the driver was driving his American girlfriend’s fancy Firebird. Well, it was fancy until that night.

    Then back in 2006 once again well before the “conception” of HSM. I was driving in K-Mart parking lot in Manassas. My suv was t-boned and then dragged by a woman driving. It did $5K worth of damage to my vehicle less than a year old. I told her I needed to call the police she said no! My vehicle was barely able to be driven away. Luckily I don’t live that far. I did not have my cell phone with me. A man saw me and asked if I needed help. I said yes please call the police for me. The lady and her boyfriend/husband, and unbelted toddler were about to take off. Then the woman took off on foot. When the police got there the officer thought the car was driven by the man, and he was more than willing to the heat for the accident. Well, I spoke up and said he was the passenger. The officer asked where’s the driver? I said I don’t know she took off on foot. The police told the man he needed to tell him where the driver was. Well, she had fled to her place of employment in the shopping center. The police brought her out in hand cuffs for fleeing the scene of an accident. There was no registration or proof of insurance in the car. Oh yeah, the driver did NOT even have a “walker’s ID”, and she did NOT know her address. The police had them contact the owner and get there pronto with the registration and proof of insurance. Well, 15 minutes later the owner of the car shows up with the registration only. She says please, wait a half an hour more her husband would be there with the proof of insurance. The police asked if the owner knew the driver was not licensed and she said YES! The driver was only charged with driving without a license which the officer told me she could pay the fine before the court date. I thought I was going to explode.

    I could write a book on the things I’ve seen over the years.

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