321 Thoughts to “Come out to “economic party” number 4!”
Comments are closed.
Archives
Categories
Blogroll
- 9500Liberty
- Bacons' Rebellion Blogspot
- Bearing Drift
- Blue Virginia
- Citizen Tom
- Counts of Monte Cristo. The
- Derecho, The
- Dixie Pig, The
- My Side of the Fence
- My Star Journey
- NARAL Pro-Choice VA Blog
- New Dominion Project
- Nova Common Sense
- NovaTownHall Blog
- One Libertarians's Point of View by Al Alborn
- Pete Candland's Blog
- Potomac Local
- Prince William Muckraker
- PW Conservation Alliance
- PWC Moms
- PWCPolitics.com
- PWCPolitics.com
- Red NoVA
- Shad Plank, The
- She the People
- State of NoVA, the
- The Jeffersoniad
- Townhall
- VEA Daily Reports
- VivianPaige
- WDGolden.com
- You, Me and the Lamp Post
All contents copyright Moonhowlings.net
Blogroll
- 9500Liberty
- Bacons' Rebellion Blogspot
- Bearing Drift
- Blue Virginia
- Citizen Tom
- Counts of Monte Cristo. The
- Derecho, The
- Dixie Pig, The
- My Side of the Fence
- My Star Journey
- NARAL Pro-Choice VA Blog
- New Dominion Project
- Nova Common Sense
- NovaTownHall Blog
- One Libertarians's Point of View by Al Alborn
- Pete Candland's Blog
- Potomac Local
- Prince William Muckraker
- PW Conservation Alliance
- PWC Moms
- PWCPolitics.com
- PWCPolitics.com
- Red NoVA
- Shad Plank, The
- She the People
- State of NoVA, the
- The Jeffersoniad
- Townhall
- VEA Daily Reports
- VivianPaige
- WDGolden.com
- You, Me and the Lamp Post
Mackie,
You are not try to hear/listen what some of us are saying you just resort to name calling. I’ve read the posts on bvbl. You’ve chosen the worst of the worst when it comes to bvbl. You will not see my name over there posted on the dog food and other over the top threads. I’ve explained myself enough. Obviously you have a preconcieved notion of some and that’s too bad you can’t take those blinders off and see I am NOT like the ilk of which you speak of.
Sticks and Stones, Mackie. Go ahead keep saying your buzzwords and calling me a Nazi. Geesh, give me an effing break. I’ve not attacked you. But if it makes YOU feel better. I say GO FOR IT!! Have fun while your at it!
Chris,
Sorry to hear that was not your only bad experience with a driver who was an illegal alien. And your second story – it is typical that they get off with a slap on the wrist – which is exactly what I’ve heard about other cases of driving without a license. It should in my opinion be a jailable offense, but apparently driving without a license is considered a minor infraction. Every time someone goes in a car driving without a valid driver’s license – in my opinion a car can kill people, so that’s like someone who has no idea how to use a gun going out with a loaded gun.
And, as far as this new buzzword “ethnic cleansing” – try telling that to the millions of Jews who were killed in the Holocaust. I’m sure they’d be glad to hear that PWC is compared to Nazi Germany. It is an insult to every Jewish person who knows people who were directly impacted by the Holocaust and lost family members there.
But I’ve had that argument on this blog before – and of course was told I had no clue what the Holocaust was about. So I won’t waste my breath on it again, as I know the majority opinion here – relating to comparing the Holocaust to what is happening in PWC. They’ve just come up with a new buzzword so they can avoid saying Holocaust. But there’s still the linkage to it in Mackie’s post above.
And the name calling on this blog – it is always one sided. I’ve never seen anyone who supports the resolution call anyone any names here, but on the other hand, lots of nice labels have been applied to several of us. It is sad that any conversation on this blog quickly degenerates to using labels or else attempting to link anyone who supports any aspect of the resolution to being a Greg supporter. It happens time and time again here. And I’ve tired of repeating myself for the umpteenth time – I never met Greg, never have been to an HSM meeting, never posted on his blog (but started looking at it in late February – the same exact time I looked at this blog), etc. etc. etc. It’s all been said before by me in other posts, but for some reason every time I post, there’s some attempt to link me to Greg in some way, shape, or form. And it is funny that I’m Jewish but have been called a Nazi on this board. I must be one of the few Jewish Nazi’s in the world! Maybe they’ll put me in a museum on display when I die as I appear to be pretty unique in that regard!
Mackie, that arguement is peurile. Doubtless there are some active pedophiles and rapists and murderers giving a hand in Iowa also. Do they deserve amnesty too?
Mackie said:
” And drunk driving has it’s punishments including jail time.”
And thanks to the resolution, hopefully after the jail time if someone is here illegally they’ll be deported.
But there are those who would repeal the resolution, so that drunk driver who happens to be an illegal alien, is free to get behind the wheel again and possibly hurt an innocent victim.
I am not sure how anyone can argue the current resolution, which only checks status of people who are jailed, can be anything but good. No one is rounding up people off the streets, regardless of how many different ways you yell “ethnic cleansing”.
And again, I never said all illegal aliens should be deported. But I know, you would like to believe I said it, or make other’s believe I said it. Again, your attempts to lump me and others who support the resolution in with Greg, are laughable. But continue to do so, as it just illustrates how silly this whole discussion is.
LPOW,
Please, do NOT misunderstand my saying newbuzzword. I was speaking strickly to this board. It has been dropped left and right around on this board. I have no contempt for any single group, religion, nationality, etc. I have complete understanding that “ethnic cleansing” is not a new phrase or action. There are bad apples in every bunch.
I do appreciate your understanding of things of dealt with, and I feel your pain as well. I find it very interesting that some only pick up the negative comments. I guess mackie missed the part about my legal immigrant neighbors.
I knew I would take a some harsh words here, and I am fully prepared to do that. I do not subscribe to extreme behavior and thoughts. Where’s the common ground and those wanting to work together for a solution? Obviously, some are not that willing, wanting or able to do that. Yet they stick to their guns and scream names, etc. I think there are several serious contributors wanting to make progress. Clearly, Mackie is not one of those people. It seems to be his/her way or the highway.
Mackie,
Why always focus on negative, eh?
Chris, no I didn’t misunderstand you as far as what you are saying regarding “new buzzword”. However, on this blog it sort of is a new buzzword – a replacement for the oft repeated Holocaust buzzword that was used here previously. Then again, maybe it was used in other threads I have not read, but I’ve only noticed it surface with a vengenance on this blog in the past few days. Maybe I just missed it before.
I also guess Mackie missed a post I made earlier today – where I said how 5 years ago there were nice Hispanic families in our neighborhood, and they were welcomed, and seemed to mix well with the rest of us (or I shouldn’t speak for my neighbors – but I found them and their children friendly when I’d walk the dog and encounter them). Mackie must have missed all that, as it seems it is assumed I’m an equal opportunity immigrant hater.
I too had been looking for a common ground on this blog, but I really find it is impossible to find one when any reasonable discussion soon degenerates to name calling and trying to lump anyone who they don’t agree with in with Greg. Apparently, anyone who is not fully against the resolution, must be in league with Greg, under Greg’s influence, being misled by Greg, being used by him, etc. etc. They accuse us of seeing this issue in black and white, but they seem to see it that way too. There are shades of grey and moderates on both sides, as amazing as that might seem.
I agree though, the only thing that keeps me here is I do find a few (a very few) contributors to this blog who seem to want to make progress, and don’t resort to name calling, and are indeed looking for a solution and trying to find some common ground. Unfortunately, they are far too often drowned out on this blog by the other posters. If it weren’t for them, I’d have long ago stopped posting here and completely walked away. It still tempts me to do so, as can be seen from some of my more recent posts.
Unfortunately, I come back to this blog is far tilted to the extreme, and I don’t think the majority of the posters here are looking for any common ground. They are too quick to only see extreme sides of the issue, and too quick to label everyone they don’t agree with on the one extreme side (Greg’s) of this issue. It is unfortunate, but that’s the way it is.
Chris, Mackie is “The Truth,” aka “Yankee Boy,” aka “Yankee,” and, most recently, aka “GreySnout” over at BVBL. He is most definitely a “he,” and perhaps this will give you some perspective on him.
AWC,
Greetings! I hope all is well with you and yours.
I knew I recognized the “style” or lack there of. Oh, I left him a message on bvbl as “Yankee”. Of course he did NOT to reply back, and I was not using my Chris there either. Of course, I think most realize what I post as on bvbl. I was not expecting or wanting a reply. The handy dandy IGNORE BUTTON still works just fine.
Many thanks for the “heads up”.
LPOW,
I think we are on the same page. I do remain hopeful of progress being made here by the ones that truly care. I find both blogs extreme at time. I am a true moderate. I’ve taken my share of beatings over their too for not being “pro-life” and called G-dless. Yeah, that’s real Christian like behavior calling someone a name like that,simply because you don’t agree with them. It all makes me sick to my stomach at times.
Why can’t y’all just answer my question???
Consider the unfolding disaster in Iowa. They’re calling it the worst flood in 100 years. Undoubtedly there are many undocumented immigrants lending doing their best to lend a helping hand.
If that happened here in PWC, would you:
1. Enforce the resolution against undocumented volunteers who admitted they were undocumented?
2. After the floodwaters recede, continue enforcing the resolution against undocumented that had just helped you save your homes?
Don’t hold your breathe!
Man, I looked away and you guys bombarded this thread with comments… again!
I’ll admit I haven’t read everything above, and just reply to Leaving Point and Ms. Cheney.
Ms. Cheney, I hope you didn’t mean to accuse me of prejudice. In any case, we all, if we are honest with ourselves, feel more comfortable when we are in the majority. I think that I and other Caucasians are simply being honest when we admit to this, as I did in my post above. The question is what you do with such a preference, whether you are willing to vote based on it, or lobby based on it, or legislate based on it. As I mentioned, F.A.I.R. formed three decades ago in order to try to preserve the white majority, and you and most Americans ignored them … they go NO WHERE until September 11th happened and they saw how easy it was to manipulate our political process using hate, fear, and misinformation. They introduced a new mantra, tying immigration to national security, and suddenly they had legions ready to blindly follow. I’m sure you paid no attention to F.A.I.R. until you saw a political advantage in taking on their mantle. Now that you find there is no short term advantage, do you still feel that way? I hope not, because the long term prognosis of anti-immigrant politics are very bleak indeed.
Leaving Point, I hear you and I thank you for your candor and your diligence in investigating this issue and what has happened in PWC over the past year. If only the journalists covering the story were as involved…. My point to you, and others who post here and seem to have a good heart, is that we have lost more than we have gained. Put aside the damage to our economy, our reputation, our schools, our public services, and our public safety. When you reach a point where you start using negative generalizations about certain groups of people to justify harsh actions taken against them, you’re losing a part of yourself. I don’t know how to describe it. But you diminish yourself in some small way when you give in to negative feelings like that. We all have been there, and we all struggle to keep such feelings from consuming us, even for a moment, when we are upset at someone who belongs to a minority that is often stereotyped. Non-white people, I’m sure struggle to do the same when they are mad at us! It doesn’t mean you’re a bad person to have these feelings, and it doesn’t mean you are a bad person if you act on them.
But when it comes to public policy, my hope is that we not allow such feelings to drive us toward drastic decisions. Because more times than not, collective decisions made in a wave of fear or anger turn out to be bad decisions. In the case of Prince William County Immigration Resolution, this is precisely what happened. You said yourself that you are pleased that the Board arrived at a fair policy with the repeal of Probable Cause on April 29th. Did it occur to you (I’m sure it did) that if the fear and anger hadn’t been pushed to such a boiling point, if the Supervisors hadn’t been bombarded with emails from California pretending to be PWC residents, if the Supervisors hadn’t been threatened to their faces by Gospel Greg and The Duecaster Disaster, and if Corey Stewart and Tom Kopko hadn’t used Greg’s hatred to engineer what they thought was an unstoppable election issue… they wouldn’t have rushed the policy to vote in the last meeting before the 2007 election. They would have taken the same advice that ultimately led to this change in policy that you like, and arrived a that policy in an informed and deliberate fashion. We wouldn’t have had to waste $800,000 training our Police Officers on a policy that would soon be reversed, and many of the unforeseen consequences of this policy would have been averted.
LPOW,
There is confusion about what the resolution will and will not do. It is my understanding that the county had begun participating in the 287 G program for the jails prior to the introduction of Robert Duecasters resolution. This means, that people who were arrested were being processed at the jails for their immigration status. I, along with many other, have no problem with that program. What I did have a problem with was ANY person being asked their status, prior to committing a crime. Police officers were mandated to inquire. If you look into the association for police chiefs, you will find that their stance is police officers stay OUT of immigration enforcement. In order to properly protect ALL people, police officers must be able to cultivate relationships with the immigrant/minority community, and expecting them to enforce immigration law is contrary to that effort.
Now, you and I may disagree about how we see the issue of immigration enforcement unfolding, but I would prefer you argue the issue of what people are observing instead of attacking just what we are saying. Refute the points LPOW, not simply that you think this blog is extreme. Refute why there is no “ethnic cleansing”, don’t just say Macke is extreme and move on. When I hear reports of latino’s houses being “broken” into by ICE officials, with no warrant, I wonder, “is that how American justice works now?” When I hear that a mentally challenged young man, who is latino, and IS an American Citizen, is deported to Mexico, his mother challenging this ruling the entire time, I am wondering “how is this possible in America?” Let me ask you LPOW, are you worried that this could happen to you? I am not worried……at least not yet, you see I am not Latino.
a brief portion of Senator Mendendez’s speech:
“Last year, a 30-year-old mentally impaired man named Pedro Guzman, who was born and raised in Southern California, was arrested on misdemeanor charges and scheduled to be released—he’s a U.S. citizen, but somehow, his accent, his name and the color of his skin must have convinced immigration authorities otherwise. So instead of returning him to his home, they decided to deport him to Mexico.
Even after immigration authorities realized their horrible mistake, they made no significant effort to correct it. Pedro attempted several times to cross the border home to the United States, and was repeatedly turned away. He was forced to wander the streets of Tijuana, eating out of trash cans to survive—a U.S. citizen.
His mother Maria was worried beyond belief, and took off time from her job to search for Pedro. Finally, three full months after he’d been illegally deported, Pedro found his way home. When he came back, his mother said, after so much trauma, only half of her son had returned.
Each of us in this country has to think, What if that happened to me? Why couldn’t that happen to me? What would happen to my children if I were taken away?”
LPOW you can choose to deny this reality because you have been personally affected by a criminal in your neighborhood, which I believe has obviously had a significant impact on how you view immigration, or you can step out of your small world for a moment and see the larger picture at hand. I dont’ mean that as an insult , I just mean it as suggestion to see the big picture.
“Put aside the damage to our economy, our reputation, our schools, our public services, and our public safety.”
THOSE reasons, WHWN, are PRECISELY why I became involved in this issue…and no other. I have seen how the perception that the county where I was raised had become a “sanctuary jurisdiction” (flyers found at the border and in vans filled with illegal aliens heralded Prince William County and Manassas, Virginia as the place to go) impacted each of those areas, and I was rightly disturbed.
Having seen the impact of this enormous influx of illegal aliens into our area myself, how could I not celebrate a resolution that did NO MORE than demand the enforcement of our existing laws and regulations and thus remove the “tag” of sanctuary from the perception of my home county? Unlike you, I had no preconceived notions that this was all about keeping America white and European. I have no association with FAIR or any other radical organization (although I question how radical they might be, I’m only taking your word for it…guess I should do my own research); insofar as politics is concerned, I am no more enamored with any politician who uses the illegal alien issue purely to get elected than you are (I frankly am FAR more impressed with John Stirrup who quietly works for the wishes and needs of his constituents rather than jumping on the bandwagon, and in front of the cameras, for expediency…although Corey Stewart is holding his ground far better than I would have thought); if you look at my history of comments back on BVBL, you will see that I NEVER assumed race as the issue, and only used the term “Hispanic” when a specific incident or issue actually only involved “Hispanics.” You assume much about me, which is your right, as it is my right to respond. Do not presume to know me or the way I think without knowing me or my body of work.
Elena has done a better job than I have of explaining how you lose more than you gain if you side with Robert Duecaster, on small points and on large ones.
Elena,thanks for the welcome.You have a good point(we were here first!…just Kidding)I was just trying to give a point of view from someone who has been here a long time…reading these posts,I kind of sensed that a lot of you have not been here that long.I still feel that ethnic cleansing thing is a bit over the top.If you read the local paper you will see a lot of the crimes committed here are by people that are not here lawfully. I just think they need to go. And it would be really cool if the immigrants would try a bit harder to be a part of our community.To be honest,I am so tired of the whole damn thing.I am going to play my drums and learn the new songs for my band…Peace.Russ
Elena, if you don’t mind me interjecting my opinion here, although the question was addressed to LPOW, the story of young Pedro Guzman is indeed sad and inexcusable. That said, however, it is also understandable how it could happen. It occurred in a state which has LONG been overwhelmed with an illegal alien situation which we can only imagine. Under such circumstances, mistakes are bound to be made, particularly when someone is unable to understand what might be happening to him. I would be more surprised to learn that such things do not happen more often. It’s inexcusable, but what about the Mexican authorities? Wouldn’t you think that the young man would have come, at some point, to the attention of the Mexican authorities while he was wandering around Tijuana? What do you think would happen if such a thing should befall a foreign national in this country? It is HIGHLY likely that he would have been picked up by the police at some point and his story investigated, whereupon he would have most likely been presented to his Embassy/Consulate for disposition and ultimate return to his home. How can you blame an overwhelmed system for being broken when the one complaining most loudly about it is far more broken, and demanding that we further overwhelm our system so that they don’t have to fix theirs?
WhyHereWhyNow, 18. June 2008, 23:49
“Elena has done a better job than I have of explaining how you lose more than you gain if you side with Robert Duecaster, on small points and on large ones.”
THAT comment, WHWN, expresses YOUR closed-mindedness far better than anything I could say.
I assume it is far better than anything you could say, but I don’t get your point. Could you explain?
Russ,
That was cute “we were here first (just kidding)” 🙂 I too am tired, of course, that could be because it’s after 1:00 a.m. and I am blogging while my children sleep! Please don’t drop out of the conversation, that’s how we got into this mess to begin with, lack of communication. It is true, I have only lived in PWC for seven years. But I am a lifelong resident of Virginia, attended K-12 and stuck around for college and grad school at Marymount University in Arlington. I love Northern Virginia. I saw my neighborhood change fairly quickly in the span of 7 years when I lived in Centreville, only it was mostly Paksistani’s. When I hear people complain about loud music, thumping through walls, I recall how I met my husband. He would play his headbanger music WAY too loud, almost every Friday night, until I finally knocked on his door at midnight to complain. Well, the rest is history. My point being, loud neighbors come in all shapes and sizes. Mine just happened to be funny and handsome. We had overcrowding issues,trash issues, crime issues, and maintenence issues. I wouldn’t have used a resolution to deal with those problems.
AWCheney,
How the Mexican government handles homeless mentally challenged people is not my concern frankly. My concern is how MY government handles its citizens. The reality is that BECAUSE Pedro was hispanic, this was allowed to happen. One time, is one time to many in my book. I have a dear friend who has severly mentally challenged brother, I cannot imagine a more outrageous injustice than to deport an AMERICAN CITIZEN who is clearly in need of assistance. That our immigration system is so overwhelmed trying to “process” so many bodies only reinforces my point. We have to come up with a way to require citizenship for so many people that are here, simply working hard and are also keeping out of the criminal justice system. Pedro IS the poster boy for immigration reform because clearly, what we are doing now, is NOT working. Has it become acceptable, in my country, a beacon of freedom to the world, to say that a few constitutional mistakes are the price we have to pay so that we keep these “mexicans” out of our country?
Word to the wise: Mackie’s writing style is very figurative. Try not to take every word he writes literally. Mackie, you are a very talented writer.
I am going to suggest a little more honey and a little less vinegar with some of those with whom we disagree. We all come here with different ideas and beliefs. Some of those beliefs will be changed, some will not.
“How can you blame an overwhelmed system for being broken when the one complaining most loudly about it is far more broken, and demanding that we further overwhelm our system so that they don’t have to fix theirs?”
Quoting myself, Elena, the reason we are in the situation we are is because Mexico feels no need to fix their system…that makes us enablers, and what you are suggesting a disservice to the Mexican people.
Moon-Howler,
I guess we are the “night’ owls this evening, or rather morning I should say. I think you make a good point about honey vs vinegar, but sometimes, a little vinegar for livliness is good, as long as you sweeten it up later to allow people time digest new and different points of view.
AWCheney,
Do you believe that all latino’s are from Mexico? I guess we should have also told Ireland to fix their “potato famine” or Italy to develop their economy, or Russia to stop persecuting the Jews. For as long as America has existed as a the “new world”, people have emmigrated to improve their lives. How do you explain the poem on the statue of liberty, or is that outdated and history too.
WhyHereWhyNow, 18. June 2008, 23:49
“Elena has done a better job than I have of explaining how you lose more than you gain if you side with Robert Duecaster, on small points and on large ones.”
OK WHWN, allow me to translate what this means to the discerning mind:
What you appear to be saying is that merely the act of agreeing with certain points of logic that also happen to be held by someone whom you (WHWN) happen to hold in contempt is enough to ignore any rational reasoning which may be offered merely from the perspective of “guilt by association.” By that reasoning, you must be a flaming extremist just like your buddy Mackie because you just happen to agree with some of his points. Or I could associate you with MEChA and Aztlan, with their extremist views that all European Americans should vacate this country immediately and turn the United States over to Mexico. Very narrow thinking, wouldn’t you say?
Elena, 19. June 2008, 1:41
AWCheney,
Do you believe that all latino’s are from Mexico?
Not at all, Elena…nor did I say so. We were speaking of a specific incident and my take on it. That you choose to throw out a point not at issue in the current exchange is a symptom of the inability of so many on your side of the issue, as well as mine, to come to a reasonable discourse and, perhaps, to common ground.
Some people don’t want to find common ground. They want to argue. That is a fine past time also, but recognize it for what it is and don’t try to give it fancy names.
Moon-howler, 19. June 2008, 1:31
Word to the wise: Mackie’s writing style is very figurative. Try not to take every word he writes literally. Mackie, you are a very talented writer.
I am going to suggest a little more honey and a little less vinegar with some of those with whom we disagree. We all come here with different ideas and beliefs. Some of those beliefs will be changed, some will not.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I agree honey is better than vinegar, and the reasons they come here. As far as beliefs go..we are all INDIVIDUALS. An open-minded person will/is respective new ideas and will COMPROMISE, and then there are those wouldn’t change their mind if something slapped them in the face. It kind of makes me of the saying you can lead horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.
corr: An open-minded person will/is RECEPTIVE to new ideas and will COMPROMISE,..
Elena,
I am already sweet. 😉
However, some have preconceived notions of where ones head at. This will hamper one’s willingness to make any progress. It goes back to some want to just argue. I am NOT one looking to argue. There’s been enough of that the last year to last a lifetime. I’ve come here not argue or disrespect anyone. However, I will not roll over and play dead if someone wants to be argumentative with me. I’ve kept my thoughts to myself over the past few months, and it’s getting old. I am wanting to exchange new ideas.
BTW-I do believe there’s hope for common ground with those willing to truly see and make progress. Of course, there will always be those that are not willing to see past their front door.
Elena, I could turn the tables and ask why those who attack and use labels seem to have to do no explaining don’t have to follow your rule about “but I would prefer you argue the issue of what people are observing instead of attacking just what we are saying”.
And actually, I’ve provided ample arguments as to why I feel it is wrong to say that ethnic cleansing is going on in PWC, or what is happening in PWC is like the Holocaust, etc. etc. It is all there in the history of my posts. Why should I have to repeat myself.
One time, when I provided a clearly written set of reasons why what is happening in PWC is not like the Holocaust, I was informed by one of the regulars here that I knew nothing about the Holocaust. Interesting, as very close friends of my parents are survivors of the Holocaust.
I think it is shameful to say what is happening here is like the Holocaust, or this new way of saying it, “ethnic cleansing”. I don’t want to speak for others here, but I never ever said I wanted every Hispanic removed from PWC. But that’s what Mackie and others seem to want to paint me as saying.
So why debate people who take ridiculous stances like that, and resort to name calling and labels.
And I challenge you and every one else to find ANY post of mine that I’ve called someone a name. But I can list more than a dozen posts that I have been personally attacked and labeled every possible offending label your posters could come up with. And they keep trying to label me as a Greg supporter, one of his clones, or any number of other terms. It is interesting how they want to put everyone who disagrees with them in a “neat little box” and say if you disagree with them, you must be enabling ethnic cleansing!
So it seems pretty one sided, and yet you say I should rise above your regular posters. Why bother?
I find it offensive in the extreme that PWC is even tangentially linked to the Holocaust, ethnic cleansing, or whatever new term your regulars want to come up with today or tomorrow.
Unfortunately, I believe the moderates on this board are being drowned out, and it isn’t worth arguing with people who won’t give an inch. For example, one moderate said they were in favor of amnesty but not 100% amnesty, in that they didn’t support it for criminals, and they were ridiculed by a regular poster here. It is a small example of what goes on here. But yet you seem to ask us to rise above that.
Anyway, I’ve already addressed why I don’t feel the term Holocaust applies to PWC, and it would be the same argument as to why ethnic cleansing doesn’t apply. I don’t feel the need to repeat myself. And instead of intelligent debate that post just provoked a whole pile of insults. So why bother to do it again? This thread has devolved into attacks and insults. So what’s the point.
This thread isn’t looking for any solution. It’s sole purpose is to say that ethnic cleansing is going on in PWC. I get that.
LPOW,
I think you’ve used the term Ethnic Cleansing in your last post more times than I did in the whole thread combined.
AWCheney,
Sorry for my misunderstanding regarding Mexico and your comment. I wonder what a conversation would look like if you sat down with Pedro and his mom and said that this “incident was unfortunate and sad, but that is what happens because Mexico is so unwilling to care for its own”. What I am suggesting to AWCheney, is that you are missing the point I am making. Pedro is a United States citizen, and his mother is either legalized, naturalized, or also a United States citizen. If Pedro were my child, I could care less about Mexico, my point would be I came to this country for a better life or else I wouldn’t have left my home country to begin with. I work hard, mind my own business, live the American life, and just because of my color and ethnic backgroud, my family is singled out by ICE. Being a mother of two, if my child were put through such a constitutional violation, you’d see me on Capitol Hill, speaking out with such fervor, you would not be able to dismiss my story with such ease.
LPOW,
There are plenty of temples speaking out against the fervor regarding illegal immigrants and hispanics. Have you visited the ADL site lately? I wonder, if Greg and his ilk were allowed to go unchallenged,where do you think all of this scapegoating would lead? If we didn’t have a few Board members, willing to confront Corey, where would the resolution be? If Robert Duecaster had had his way, children would not be going to schools, parks, pools, or libraries. Teachers and Counselors at schools would be required to “report” anyone they suspected of being an illegal immigrant, children and parents alike. Is this really the world you wanted to live in? What comes after this “rooting” out of the undesirables who are latino? Duecaster is a mouthpiece for FAIR, and they ultimately believe there are too many immigrants here, not just undocumented but also legal. Have you seen the “gumballs” video or as I fondly call it, “dumb balls”? What do you do, when you see an organization such as FAIR, with white superemicist ties actually becoming mainstream and influencing public policy?
I visited Israel LPOW, and I will never forget, sitting with my fellow travelers, having a group discussion, led by an Israeli. The topic came up about the importance of Israel’s survival, so that in the event of another impending holocaust, Jews would have a safe place to go, and not simply wait to be slaughtered. I said, ” but I live in America, we are a safe place for Jews”. Do you know what the leader said, “the Germans Jews thought they too had a safe place, they NEVER believed such an atrocity could happen”. If you truly believe, a holocaust will never happen again, then you are not following the number one rule of holocaust survivors “never forget”. I am NOT suggesting that we are in a holocaust right now in PWC ,LPOW, and I don’t think that anyone here has actually stated we are in the midst of a holocaust. But there are many events that are troubling to people, as they should be, and my point is that you cannot turn a blind eye just because the people on the recieving end of this hate are not jews or do not look like you. I know you have experienced troubling events in your neighborhood, but I believe that has clouded your ability to see the big picture. Here is a recent letter by ADL:
April 15, 2008
Honorable Michael B. Mukasey
Attorney General
United States Department of Justice
950 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20530-0001
Dear Attorney General Mukasey:
On behalf of the Anti-Defamation League, we are writing to request that the Department of Justice open an investigation into allegations of profiling on the part of the Maricopa County, Arizona Sheriff’s Office.
The impact of illegal immigration has taken a heavy toll on the State of Arizona. We have unfortunately witnessed the deterioration of civil discourse, vigilantism, the involvement of racist and neo-Nazi extremist groups, and now allegations of profiling by law enforcement authorities of both undocumented migrants and American citizens.
Recent reports in both the local and national media have alleged that the Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office, which entered into a 287(G) agreement with the U.S. Department of Justice, has engaged in profiling during “crime suppression sweeps” largely in areas of the county populated mainly by Latinos. In each case, both American citizens of Hispanic origin and undocumented migrants have been detained or arrested. The mayors of Phoenix and Guadalupe, Arizona, as well as other public officials, have gone on the record objecting to these sweeps.
As an agency dedicated to countering anti-Semitism and all forms of hatred, prejudice and bigotry, the Anti-Defamation League believes a federal investigation is warranted and would be consistent with the interest of fairness, justice, and of upholding the protections guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States and federal law as they apply both to American citizens and to non-citizens on American soil.
Such an investigation would also be consistent with the spirit of President George W. Bush’s February 27, 2001 Address to a Joint Session of Congress, in which he declared that racial profiling is ”wrong and we will end it in America.”
Thank you for your attention to this critically important matter.
Respectfully,
Deborah M. Lauter
Director, Civil Rights
Bill Straus
Arizona Regional Director
cc: Hon. Diane Humetewa, U.S. Attorney, District of Arizona
Hon. John Lewis, Special Agent in Charge, FBI Phoenix Office
http://www.adl.org/Civil_Rights/Letter_m.asp
Mackie said: “I think you’ve used the term Ethnic Cleansing in your last post more times than I did in the whole thread combined.”
And your point is what? Anyway, you used it a whole bunch of times in this thread and you were the one who first mentioned it in this thread. Actually, it is a very close tie.
So I suppose I’m supposed to debate that term without using it? Is that your point? Interesting.
To be clearer – what I meant to say was “you used it a whole bunch of times in this thread before I ever posted and mentioned the term, and you were the one who first mentioned it in this thread.
Again, I don’t know what point you are trying to make about me using it more times than you. Are you trying to say either:
1. I should not be using that term.
or
2. I am the one who turned it into a controversy.
or
3. I shouldn’t be debating the term at all.
Those are the only 3 things I can infer from your comment above. And I saw it used by you in other threads too – so if you count them, you are way ahead of me in usage of it.
Anyway, I’m not interested in a silly game of who uses the term more – and again I’m not sure what the point of such a count of “who uses it most” is. What point does that make?
Elena:
We can debate it ad infinitum. As to the whole Holocaust issue, it was definitely said by some posters here about a month ago that “what is happening here in PWC is just as bad as the Holocaust”. There was a direct comparison to what is happening here with the Holocaust, and basically the two were equated, and one poster even said this was worse! At the time, I found that to be a fairly poor statement to make (and I still do) – and when I challenged it, and listed factual reasons why it was not like the Holocaust, I got back a bunch of silly remarks about my not having any understanding of the Holocaust, and the favorite term of labeling me as a Greg clone, a Nazi, and a few other things of the same kind. What I did not get back was any intelligent debate.
Yet you ask me to have a higher standard than your posters, and again I’m tired of revisiting this issue of Holocaust, ethnic cleansing (there – I said it again so I suppose that will make Mackie happy in the silly contest of who says it more times), etc. It isn’t worth it. Obviously there are those on this blog who believe what is happening in PWC is like the Holocaust, and that ethnic cleansing (there, I said it again!) is taking place. Fine, I tried to argue it and I get silly statements like “you said it more times than I did”. Yes, that is highly intelligent debate – one which is not worth continuing given that it seems there is some reason why it is important to someone to keep track of how many times I say the term. I’m sure if I stop saying it (and I will) – the term will continue to be used on here and Mackie will far surpass me. If you count all of Mackie’s posts on all threads – Mackie is far ahead of me anyway. And again, I’m not sure what the point was of counting who says it more. I know THAT definitely added a whole lot of thoughtfulness to this debate.
Elena,
Regarding your post about the resolution in its current form. I think I repeatedly said that I was happy the probable cause piece was dropped. But even after I said that (in this thread) it was stated I am an advocate of mass deportation, etc. etc. How is the resolution in its current form advocating that? In fact, again I say, how in its current form does it lead to (and I shudder to type this) “ethnic cleansing”. Those who end up in jail should be purged from our society. And its too bad that City of Manassas doesn’t have the resolution, as the illegal immigrant who broke into my house would hopefully be on his way to being deported. Instead he is running free somewhere probably committing more thefts.
Elena – you said “I know you have experienced troubling events in your neighborhood, but I believe that has clouded your ability to see the big picture.” Probably that may be the case. But I challenge anyone to live with what I’ve had to live with for a year, and see how they come out.
How would you like your house broken into? How would you like the thief who lives next door – who has no id or documentation, to then flee and be nowhere to be found. Where’s the justice in that? That is the kind of lawlessness that is occurring in my neighborhood. And it isn’t just the house next to me. The two houses across the street were like that too. And again, I know I said it several times, once upon a time there were nice Hispanic families in the neighborhood. Yet people want to put me in a neat little box and link me to Greg and his thoughts about Hispanics.
It isn’t worth to keep rehashing the same old points. Apparently, several of your posters are content to think that anyone who is in any way, shape, or form, in favor of any piece of the resolution, is a racist, a Greg clone, or any number of other terms. I guess that makes them happy, so that’s good! They are just as hateful people as the people they accuse of being hateful (Greg and some of the extremists on that side). I see just as much hate in people who use hateful terms as the people they are accusing of doing all these things.
And I’m sure these people would be quick to want to round up those who they apply the label of racist, Greg clone, etc., and get then out of the county.
So there’s a form of cleansing I’m sure they’d be highly in favor of.
How is labelling people with those terms, any different than the way Jews were labeled and then rounded up? Apparently it is easy to label a person with a particular term here, so let’s put the shoe on the other foot – in that case we can just as easily move to the conclusion that those very same people doing the labeling would love to round up all the people they’ve applied that label to and get them out of PWC.
Maybe that will show how ridiculous all of this labeling is. Again, I see just as much hatred in the people doing the labeling as the people they ACCURATELY label. But they do a whole lot of inaccurate labeling too.
Ms. Cheney, you seem to interpret everything through the same lens: “How best to use this for political gain.”
You interjected yourself into a conversation between me and Leaving Point, one that rises above the level of discourse to which you are accustomed.
Leaving Point, let me know if Ms. Cheney’s tactics hold any water with you. I certainly didn’t mean to say that you and Robert Duecaster have anything in common. My point was to remind you that you have nothing in common, and you sacrifice something precious when you present yourself in a manner similar to his … even if you are understandably upset by your neighbors who happen to be of a particular ethnicity. If I offended you, I’ll be sure to expand on this more tonight.
As for AWCheney’s feigned outrage in lieu of informed counterpoint, I have little response other than to say we’ve heard that one before.
I suggest, WGWN, that you reread the posts in question with an eye toward reading comprehension…YOURS as well as mine.
LPOW,
I am not in a position to respond right now, it ‘s “play time ” in my house. I really want to continue this conversation, but want to give it my full attention, so let’s resume this later, and I promise to respond.
Elena,
OK, it is not a problem. You needn’t feel like you need to respond right away. We all have lives outside of this blog, and responsbilities such as family, jobs, etc.
WHWN: I was still trying to interpret the meaning behind what you said in your post to me, so that’s why I hadn’t commented on it. However, I appreciate the clarification. I also have conversed with you enough before that while we disagree on things, I think we understand each other’s viewpoints to some degree – and I know we have had conversations about Ducaster and actually you enlightened me on who he is and the role he played. So actually it was more due to that, which caused me not to draw any conclusion that you were saying me and him had something in common (or a lot in common).
However, other posters here have been quick to paint me inside the same neat little box that it seems they like to lump anyone who they disagree with – the box containing Greg supporters, Greg clones, Holocaust enablers, Nazis, and other terms. To them it is a black and white world – and it is unfortunate they see it that way. And that is the point I was trying to make in one of my previous posts. And also I thought I’ve made it clear enough from my posts that I do not advocate the elimination of all Hispanics from PWC, or even a large percentage of them. However, as much as I repeat myself over and over, I find others here quick to draw conclusions about my views and paint me into their box that fits in their black and white view of things. Then again, as someone else said, for those kind of people “it’s either their way or the highway”.
I still think though that every discussion here quickly degenerates to such things, and the inevitable attempts to paint everyone who is in some way for some portion of the resolution (and I never ever said I was for the entire thing, lock, stock, and barrel) – as being a Greg supporter, etc. etc. Actually my new favorite is someone who Greg used. Interesting, as I didn’t really know who Greg was until long after the resolution passed, and never read his blog until this past February.
Again, it would be nice to move past this part of the discussion, but for some reason on this blog I’m compelled to endlessly defend myself against these silly statements about being someone in league with Greg, etc.
And, I just think once again, the majority of this blog seems insistent on this whole idea of linking PWC to the Holocaust, ethnic cleansing, and other terms – and I find all of that discussion to be something that to put it mildly, does not appeal to me. That is why, I am beginning to come to the conclusion, that I shouldn’t bother reading this blog if it continues to harp on that – as it is something I clearly believe is not true, and is just fear mongering and propaganda spreading, to advocate a particular point of view. If enough people shout FIRE in a movie theater, panic will ensue. That is what I feel is going on with this idea that what is happening in PWC is similar to the Holocaust, ethnic cleansing, and so on. Anyway, I’m repeating myself (for the umpteenth time), so will stop here.
Bad neighbors are Bad neighbors. They should be judged as individuals and they should be punished on an individual basis according the severity of the offense. These are cornerstones of our justice system.
The Scapegoat-Immigrants resolution was a direct assault on these concepts. It was a deliberate misuse of immigration law to use a cruel and unusual punishment to fit crimes that did not warrant said punishment.
Many people who supported the resolution did so for frustrations that can be sympathized with. The frustrations can be understood but they don’t excuse the response. These people were manipulated and misled by Greg into believing the resolution was the ONLY solution. Go back and listen to Sharon Pandak’s speech before the board Oct 16. It is an excellent dissection of what was happening in our community and how to proceed forward. It WAS all about quality of life issues. It had nothing to do with immigration law.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEvo8g9Z8Gk
WHWN:
And picking up on something you said in one of your posts: indeed I am sure I am changed by events that happened in my neighborhood. I would like to think they are isolated. And I am sure I have lost something of myself, as you say, and hope to gain it back when I move away from here. Right now, I’ve been the victim of extreme sleep deprivation, as thanks to the noise situation I average at best 4-5 hours of sleep a night. It is no way to live, let’s put it that way. And it probably impacts rational thought on my part. I am hopeful I’ll be able to see this whole “immigration issue” for lack of a better term, with a clearer frame of mind, once I remove myself from this neighborhood in about 4 months. Until then, I doubt I’m going to have a much clearer mind on the subject, or be able to think about it more objectively.
That’s the best way I can explain the way I feel at present. And I don’t see those feelings changing until I can get someplace where I can live a more peaceful normal life, which certainly is not possible here in my present living situation. Again, it would be an interesting psychological experiment to take one of the more extremists on what I will call the “pro-immigration side” (but that’s not really a precise term as I wouldn’t want myself to be called “anti-immigration”) and stick them in my house for a year and see how they come out. Or see if they were able to effect a positive change in this neighborhood. I have my own opinion of what might happen, but others might possibly disagree.
Anyway, we’ve sort of had this discussion before, but I know when we have I have learned from it. Something I’m unable to say about other “discussions” (and I’m intentionally putting quotes around it) with other posters on this blog, unfortunately. Those discussions have been more heat than light. Fortunately between the two of us, while there has been some heat, there has been more light – and as long as the ratio is more in favor of the light side of the equation, I find it to be a valuable discussion. And we also have been respectable to each other, and explained ourselves when it seemed that the other might be drawing the wrong conclusion. As to the other “discussions” I’ve had with other posters on this blog – i do not find them to be of any value, as they are unwilling to do anything but resort to the same tired arguments and name calling and accusations of being in league with Greg, etc. etc.
Leaving Point of Woods,
HELLO there!:) It has been a while since we chatted. Anyway, YES, it gets old but RISE above it. The battle of the conversation is lost when you have to REPEAT your self and defend the UNTRUE accusations. Get over it before you get under it, would be my advice 🙂
Speak what YOU know is TRUE and don’t loose site of that. This would be the “spoke in the wheel” Overlook it, as NOBODY owes anyone an explanation. Break out of that cycle that everyone will get lost in IF they choose to defend what other people say about you and you know it is not true 🙂
Mackie,
🙂 I voted for Sharon. Good video
Red Dawn,
Your advice is definitely good, and indeed I should take it. And you are right, indeed it feels like I’m stuck in an endless cycle of defending myself against baseless accusations on here, and you have a good point about not owing anyone an explanation for my views. I suppose I don’t know why I feel compelled to keep explaining myself/defending myself to those who choose not to listen, and toss out crazy accusastions.
So I would be wise to take your advice. Unfortunately, I’m not sure anyone has ever accused me of being a wise person
Anyway, this is a roundabout way of saying indeed, it is good to hear from you again! We also have had good exchanges on here, while we have not always agreed with one another, we have at least treated one another with respect, which is really all that anyone can ask for people on two sides of a debate to do.
LPOW,
It gets quite tiresome repeating yourself. I sure got tired of it. I’m going to try and not repeat the samethings over and over again. It’s a complete waste of energy and effort. Let’s focus on moving forward. I do think many are sympathetic to the things we’ve been faced with in recent years in our neighborhoods. It’s like Mackie said “bad neighbors are bad neighbors”. I could tell some stories on my neighbors from the 70’s too.
Mackie,
I am in 100% total agreement about the bad neighbors. They are just that bad neighbors.
There are bad apples in every bunch(race, color, creed, age, gender, religion, nationality etc).
BTW- It still IS about quality of life. I hate the fact they are closing down the Manassas Senior Day Care Program. This makes me sick. With that being said I must ask where’s the humanity?
Elena,
I’m not sure what you were going to respond to in my posts. But one thing I was attempting to say in regards to the Holocaust – but didn’t say it well or was saying it sarcastically (and really the Holocaust is nothing to be sarcastic about) was the following:
When I said the Jews in Germany were labeled, they weren’t just labeled with words. They were labeled with tatoos. (I may be mispelling it and am too lazy to look it up but you get what I mean). My parents have friends who fortunately escaped the Holocaust, but bear those tatoos on their forearms. It is a sad reminder of what they escaped, fortunately for them.
I hope no one thinks we’ve reached the point of labeling people in PWC that way. Then again I was sarcastically saying that I feel like some posters here might indeed want to institute a program, where anyone they feel is a “Greg supporter” gets tatooed, and then is evicted from PWC. Maybe it was a bad thing to say, but at times I get the feeling reading this blog that there is more a danger of that happening, and people being wrongfully accused of being racists – then the dangers they are fearing of people being rounded up and mass deported. I don’t see any of that happening, no matter what some of the posters on this blog think. Once the probable cause was removed from the resolution, I don’t see how anyone could think that can happen. Before it was removed, yes, you could argue there was some possibility perhaps if the police went gung ho in their enforcement of the resolution (which I don’t think they were going to do anyway).
The above is a long way of saying what I tried to say but probably didn’t say well in my preceding posts. Just clarifying it ahead of your responding to it, as I wasn’t clear in what I was saying now that I read it back.
Red Dawn,
I see you’re alive and kicking! 😉
Looks like we were both think along the same lines at same time.
Leaving Point of Woods, I think the reason so many of us are upset with the Immigration Resolution is that it intrudes into immigration policy where neighborhood services needs to be involved instead. I’ve had similar problems with next door neighbors – dopers and their buddies who partied loudly most of the night and other tenants whose dogs yapped all night. Immigration enforcement would have done nothing to solve these problems because the offensive louts were all home-grown good-old-boys. I found a few calls and a couple officious letters to the property owner brought about the desired changes. Plus, people who live on the margins tend to move on. Their financial situation is usually as precarious as their social one.
Chris, hope to see you at the party.
Sharon Pandek makes even more sense now than she did back in the fall. Too bad the county got seduced by Judas.