Since many of us will be at the party tonight, someone suggested an open thread for follow up comments. I am not sure how many will be able to continue posting on the “party” thread once we reach 300 posts, so feel free to use this thread to continue the conversation, or start a new one!
61 Thoughts to “Open Thread!”
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Blogroll
- 9500Liberty
- Bacons' Rebellion Blogspot
- Bearing Drift
- Blue Virginia
- Citizen Tom
- Counts of Monte Cristo. The
- Derecho, The
- Dixie Pig, The
- My Side of the Fence
- My Star Journey
- NARAL Pro-Choice VA Blog
- New Dominion Project
- Nova Common Sense
- NovaTownHall Blog
- One Libertarians's Point of View by Al Alborn
- Pete Candland's Blog
- Potomac Local
- Prince William Muckraker
- PW Conservation Alliance
- PWC Moms
- PWCPolitics.com
- PWCPolitics.com
- Red NoVA
- Shad Plank, The
- She the People
- State of NoVA, the
- The Jeffersoniad
- Townhall
- VEA Daily Reports
- VivianPaige
- WDGolden.com
- You, Me and the Lamp Post
“It has been suggested to us by a valued correspondent from lower Prince William
that our anti-emigration views are susceptible of being misunderstood.
No man values more highly the Teutonic and Celtic races than the editor of this
paper as a people of the highest character, but our paper distinctly pointed
out the Latin and Slavic races for exclusion. In this county, many of our
best people are of Teutonic birth; but they, of course, realize with us, the
danger of the hordes now pouring into America, especially from
the Mediterranean.”
“The Italians … we have no use for them and they are a menace to America
and American institutions.”
The Manassas Journal
Nov. 9, 1906
Thank you for the post Poor Richard, I hope to see you tonight!
Poor Richard,
Well, that certainly is eye opening and should remind everyone of our illustrious history of welcoming immigrants!
I’m sorry I’m missing the party…a contractor broke a sprinkler pipe in one of the buildings I manage at 4:30 flooding the main floor and the Fire Dept just left, so I’m having a late night at work after an incredibly long and crazy week. Haven’t had a chance to post since time has been precious this week and I haven’t kept up with the threads either.
Hope to see everyone again soon, though!
It would be nice if antibvbl could come up with something new on their own. For hating Greg L. and BVBL like you do – you sure do copy a lot from his blog – i.e. “open thread”
Hope you all got enough Greg bashing in tonight, along with HSM bashing. Pathetic.
stw,
ying/yang. I fear the evening is still young. Lots more time. So many grievances…so little time. I wonder if his ears are burning?
I guess no other blogs out of the millions online ever have “open threads” except BVBL? Right. Good one. He’s a real trail blazer.
Since there has been a recent outcry to conduct American business solely in English then I hereby proclaim HSM is engaged in a most disgusting show of hypocrisy. All of you with dollar bills in your pockets inscribed with “E. Plurbus Unim” are unabashedly participating in the subversive overthrow of the United States of America by allowing a foreign script to pollute our pure currency and engaging in commerce therewith.
This is a Rule of Law nation and the impure monies must be burned. The only currency acceptable for Americans is that printed in English.
The great and powerful OZ has spoken!!!!
rod2155,
We must not allow them to look behind the green curtain!
I would like to add that we must lay waste to and expel Florida, California, Nevada, Montana and Colorado for these states carry the scourge of a non-english name. They are in violation of the english only standard.
Let’s do something different that I have not seen talked about on this or the other blog.
I know that I have for the last year said that I would like to see if there is ANY truth to the NAU. I have never heard an argument that it is not.( on both blogs and other sites that I visit)
I would like to see a discussion about heading toward a police state and so forth….
Any takers?
Mack? 🙂 What about the sleepy peeps?
The challenge is to take “illegal immigration” and the “rule of law” out of it.
Dakota doesn’t sound very English to me. I guess I get expelled from the union.
Red Dawn,
I think that business forces in collusion with govt are moving us towards a NAU. It’s good for their profits. It’s not good for our rights. This is what happens when people allow govt to grow so big that it manages everything. NAFTA is a perfect example.
Some people even support the idea of a NAU. They see American nationalism as a form of evil and they want to destroy it.
I am completely opposed to the NAU. I am completely opposed to dual citizenship. There is no such thing as two countries with the exact same national interests. The foolishness that two countries might have the exact same national interests is clear when you realize that mexico and mexican nationalists in the US are doing their best to keep the border wide open and oppose any attempt to seal it. Even though it’s a massive national security threat. They are working directly against the national security interests of the United States.
stw, 20. June 2008, 20:49 said ” Hope you all got enough Greg bashing in tonight, along with HSM bashing. Pathetic.”
The main focus of getting together is to support local businesses that are struggling and to just hang out together. Greg and HSM are not the topics of conversation. There are many more interesting things to discuss.
Since its an open thread, below is what the European Union is doing to address illegal immigration. These procedures were just approved this week. They go way beyond any action taken by any jurisdiction in the United States. FYI only, no opinon, I just wanted to share what all members of the EU are doing about illegal aliens.
PARIS, June 18 — The European Parliament approved new rules Wednesday designed to standardize the dramatic differences in member countries’ treatment of illegal immigrants, whose presence is one of the most heated political issues in Europe today.
The provisions allow illegal immigrants to be detained only if they fail to obey orders to leave a country voluntarily within as much as 30 days. The regulations allow a six-month detention “which can be extended by a further 12 months in certain cases.” If the immigrants had not been deported by that point, they would have to be released. The measure, which would allow countries to jail illegal immigrants for as long as 18 months pending deportation, was decried by human rights organizations as promoting excessive detention
The new rules also would give countries greater flexibility in declaring emergency situations if an “exceptionally large number” of illegal immigrants places “an unforeseen heavy burden” on a member state, allowing longer periods for judicial review and “less favorable conditions of detention,” the parliamentary statement said.
The directive would allow states to ban an illegal immigrant who defies a voluntary deportation from reentering the country for as long as five years. The policy gives individual countries the right to “waive, cancel or suspend such bans.”
The regulations mandate that children and families “must not be subject to coercive measures and can only be held in custody as a last resort,” the parliament said in its statement. But the measure allowed unaccompanied minors to be deported if they can be returned to their family or to “adequate reception facilities” in their home countries.
I guess Busamante will be visiting Europe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_ZnX9JRo5M
Thank you, Lucky Duck, for your research and for posting this news story.
Went to Google this morning to see if I could find a fun activity for the whole family. I put in the following search:
What comes back as the first result?
“BLACK VELVET BRUCE LI : Fear-Mongering In Prince William County”
Yup. There’s something for everyone in Prince William County.
hope everyone enjoyed supporting the immigrant community at last nights party, if everyone “really” would like to support the economy then spread funds around a wide area. if the immigrants want a money influx then they should arrange their businesses to target others besides themselves. I cannot remember how many immigrant establishments only target “their own kind” while other establishments continuously ensure that they accomodate immigrants to ensure they get the business, look at walmart and all the signs in spanish around. would it be so hard for the immigrant establishments to offer menus in english, etc..this is a wide generalization but you see where I’m coming from. immigrant businesses as a whole target their own population that is their downfall. when a mass of their “own kind” leave the area then that really sucks, but it’s their own fault for targeting their business so narrow, no one elses. if their business fails, then it’s poor business management not a resolution or anyone elses.
Hi TPWB! We haven’t seen you around for a while. Welcome back. Oh good Lord, I thought you were being funny with your post. I was thinking how clever you were. I just had to check it out for myself and OMG, you weren’t kidding!
Yes, something for everyone. Powerful search engine magnets beaming somewhere.
WHOOP WHOOOOP
Elvis,
I don’t know there. Lots of people who are not ‘ethnic’ go to El Portel. Decent restaurant, good food. Manuel has built a good reputation in the area.
I am going to go out on a limb and make the absurd suggestion that the partying isn’t all about saving the economy. Some of the partying is good old plain camaraderie.
Some people like to get out from behind their computer screen and do the meet and greet thing. I am sorry that family obligations kept me from attending. The other parties have been a good time. And if my attendance coincidentally helps the local economy, then good. 2-fer.
Mackie, 21. June 2008, 6:04
I am actually shocked to my core!…Mackie actually posted a comment not only worth reading, but one with which I agree. The temperature must have bottomed out in Hell!
Was that really Mackie?
By the way Blue, I checked that out for myself and tried a little experiment. I used the keywords “kids” and “Prince William County” in several variations, and that particular link came up in the top 10 of each of them. It would seem that someone with a twisted sense of humor did a little viral marketing for that link. I’m surprised that you didn’t consider that yourself. I thought better of you.
AWCheney,
I’m an American nationalist. We’ve got a good thing going here in this country and we’ve built a pretty decent society and we should seek to protect it and improve it. It’s our home.
I am not a nativist. I am not afraid of immigrants. I realize that immigration is painful. It’s painful for the immigrants and it’s painful for the native-born. The pain usually takes about a generation to wear off like it did with the past waves of immigration. But this is how populations grow. It’s growing pains.
We need to recognize that our immigration law is out of line with the reality of demand for a supply of labor and realign it with reality by giving amnesty and making it easy for immigrants to come here legally.
We do need to build a wall. Not just a wall but a fortress wall, multilayered, manned with soldiers, and sown with mines. So long as we are slipping into a religious war with the Islamic faith we have to take such a war seriously. At least as seriously as our opponents take this war.
The hope for the future is that if we wisen up and start a new dialog with the Islamic world that’s based on mutual respect, we will eventually be able to tear down the wall and reestablish our civil liberties. I don’t have much hope of this happening. Both Presidential candidates think we can run the world and tell other people what to do. They just disagree on what to tell the rest of the world to do. The interventionism is the same.
The presidency is lost this time around. However, we can all make an impact at the local congressman level. The president can’t expand this war without the support of congressmen. We need time to build the critical mass of votes. If Al Queda detonates weapons of mass destruction in American cities, this thing will spin out of control.
Remember the Guns of August in World War I. Many could see what was coming but once the nightmare was set in motion, no one could stop it.
Hi turn pw blue,
I’ve missed you! Thanks for the interesting and depressing research into “PW county and children”.
Mackie,
How can we afford a “fortress” wall on our southern and northern borders? I just don’t see how that is fiscally possible.
I’ve been thinking Mackie, I also have issues with the mines on our border. The 9-11 hijackers entered the country legally. I am for stronger border security, no question, but I believe we have develop other methods than you suggest. I am more concerned about our open ports!
Mackie. I find myself looking for your posts!! Keep writing please.
I couldn’t agree more. The larger issue is security. Remember the Atty with TB from Georgia that flew back to Canada and returned to the US? If the job was well done and focused on the mission other issues would be resolved in the process of doing the right thing well. Engineers from all fields need to view our borders strictly as a security issue. Someone mentioned shipyards as being overlooked.
Neither do I have much hope of that, Mackie. We keep acting as if the Islamic countries think just like we do. They do not. The extremists are a very patient people when it comes to planning and executing their “jihad.” Those extremists will NEVER accept our way of life or our way of thinking–we are a very young country with a relatively novel way of thinking and governing, compared to their centuries-old, tribal traditions. We must do everything possible to protect ourselves against these people, starting with securing our borders.
I returned from a trip yesterday, thinking how laughable it is that I have to take my shoes off, “volunteer” for what will soon become a mandatory total body scan, and know that people can–and do–walk right over our borders daily. Anyone who really believes we are safer from Islamic terrorism now, as compared to 7 years ago, just because they take their shoes off at the airport is living a fantasy. Securing borders would cost too many votes to ever become a reality.
Elena,
Yes, it will be a great expense. But consider the cost, fiscal and otherwise, if Chicago and New York are obliterated in a nuclear strike. We would never be the same. And our first response would probably be to wipe Iran off the face of the earth thereby killing millions upon millions of innocent muslims who would have had nothing to do with it. Ironically, Sunni Al Queda would like nothing better than to destroy Shia Iran. So our first response after Al Queda kills millions of us will be to do Al Queda a huge favor. Whoever said God didn’t have a sense of humor?
And after millions of Americans have been slaughtered and millions more are dying from radiation sickness, what will happen to the millions of American muslims who are our neighbors and countrymen? They will probably be rounded up into concentration camps and forced to live out the remainder of their lives in those camps. You know we unconstitutionally rounded up thousands right after 9-11. Where was the outcry?
It’s a difficult decision to build a fortress wall. The fact that it seems necessary is an indication of how far we have strayed from the kind of country we are supposed to be. A constitutional republic, at peace with all neighbors, ‘the well-wisher to the freedom of all peoples, but the champion only of our own’.
The idea is not that we could completely seal the border with a wall. What it would do is reduce drastically the amount of area that was unsealed to only that terrain that was too difficult to construct upon. The goal is buy ourselves time. Time to change course. We’re dealing with the political and cultural inertia of 60 years of empire.
Yes, its an incredibly ugly thing to contemplate sowing our border with mines. But we’re playing for keeps here. I hate the idea. I hate the patriot act, the military commissions act, etc. The only thing that could justify such things is that the survival of our nation be at stake. Unfortunately, that is what’s at stake.
Remember also that, depending on the maturity of our leaders, it will only be a temporary measure. We need to buy ourselves time to establish a new dialog with the Islamic faith. Ultimately, we will never be safe again, nor free again, until we find a way out of this religious war we’re stumbling into.
We also need time for a new leader to emerge. We had one who had the courage to tell us the truth. He had a plan for the future that seemed radical to many only because we have drifted so far from the vision of the founding fathers. He heroically tried to tell us the truth, he never compromised his message or his votes in congress, and for this he was called a traitor by those within his party and a kook by those outside his party who still think we can rule the world. Whether the goal is to monopolize the world’s resources or force world peace down the throats of others, the tool is the same: Empire.
In my humble opinion Congressman Ron Paul was the best chance we had for real change and real hope in the presidential race. We tried. We tried really hard to reach enough people with his message. We spontaneously organized ourselves. We raised millions. We even launched the first Presidential Blimp ever! It was awesome and we were filled with hope. But the inertia of 60 years of empire was too great and we didn’t have enough time.
We’re working at the local level now. Change bubbling up from below. Real change. Grassroots change. We’re even trying to steal the nomination from McCain by flooding the RNC with our candidates. 😉
Whatever it takes.
Emma:
Actually Emma, polls show that people across the Islamic world admire our civil society. They admire equal rights, voice in government, etc. There is common ground to build upon but yes there are differences as well.
It doesn’t matter if they accept our way of life. That’s not why we’re being attacked. We’re being attacked because we’re attacking them. We’re supporting dictatorships throughout the middle east. We’re always supporting Israel’s abusive actions. We’re forcing them to sell their oil to us below market price thereby effectively stealing their wealth. These grievances are the bread and butter of Al Queda.
The question everyone is asking is ‘Is Islam a religion of peace?’ But this is the wrong question because it presupposes we’re talking about Islam in vacuum without any external influences. Democrats say yes it’s a religion of peace. And republicans say no, it’s a religion of war. And I say it’s both and neither. Am I a man of peace? Yes, but not when I’m unjustifiably attacked. Then I become a man of war until the threat is neutralized. The same can be said of Islam, and honestly any religion for that matter.
Mackie,regardless of the reasons why the Islamic extremists hate us, the fact is that they HATE us, and our porous borders are going to be our downfall. And in certain parts of the world, Islam IS a religion of war. If we pull out of Iraq now, all of our efforts will have been for nothing and the country will simply implode. If we abandon Afghanistan again–like we did in the ’80s–we will once again empower the Taliban, and Afghan girls will never see the inside of a classroom again; they will have their fingers cut off if they are caught wearing nail polish, or have acid thrown in their faces if they dare appear in public uncovered. Do we really want to see that country thrown back into the dark ages again? Agree with the war or not, we have made GREAT strides in that country, and the people there are more appreciative than many Americans are willing to see. You–and so many others–are so quick to blame America. You make it sound as if we get what we deserve from Al Qaeda, and I say that is complete bs.
Emma,
I’ve got a question for you.
What are you if not an Insurgent???
What is Help Save Manassas if not an Insurgent Organization???
You guys believe you are ‘repelling an Invasion’ right???
What would you have done if the Mexicans and Salvadorans had crossed the border with Tanks and Apache helicopters???
Congratulations, you’ve now become something akin to some of the iraqi insurgents.
Uh,sure. Yah think you could offer something a little more informed than THAT nonsense? You are blinded by hatred and paranoia, and your one-track mind leads nowhere else ultimately but to the evil empire of HSM. How simplistic can you get?
Simplistic as HSM? Emma are you a member?
Emma,
It is very simple Emma. They’re not attacking us because we love freedom. They’re attacking us because of what we’ve been doing to them. How can that be so hard to understand?
As usual, all roads lead to HSM in the black and white world of some of the posters on this blog, for anyone who is not on their side. Typical.
“Those extremists will NEVER accept our way of life or our way of thinking.”
We don’t need to be accepted. But we do have the right to co-exist. It is the right of EVERYONE to be “left alone,” not to be “accepted.”
As for Islam being a “warring” religion, I don’t buy it. There are about one billion Muslims in the world. If all these people were bent on taking over the planet, don’t you think they could have done it already?
No amount of minefields will keep out people who have set their minds to destroy us. I believe in border guards and security, but I don’t think bombs and WAY too expensive fences will do us any good.
Extremists live in every country; they represent every nationality and every belief system. But rather than improve on existing structures or building on what we already have, extremists tear things down.
The last thing we need on this planet is more rubble.
When any organization attempts to impact policy in this county, you are damned right people are going to take a look at their actions and comment. No political organization should have carte blanche to our government officials without careful transparent inspection. That has not always happened. There has been much behind the scenes work. Let’s just say some of us have become watchdogs.
Not everyone who expresses anti-illegal-immigration views is a member of HSM. I know it’s hard for you to believe, Dakota, but you just can’t stereotype people based on your own narrow interpretations–racist vs nonracist, HSM vs everyone else who is good and righteous—it’s just not that simple. I think that you would find that many of my posts here are questioning and acknowledging of the fact that there are many shades of gray in these issues. My thoughts and opinions do not make me racist, nativist or whatever you–and a few others here–want to call it just to try to score a few points with those who completely agree with you.
And no, Mackie, it is not that simple, and it is not all because we have simply provoked them. I reject your “blame America” argument, especially in the name of all that my dear cousin serving in Iraq is sacrificing to defend freedom. “They” are not simply victims of American imperialism. You must not have been impacted very much by 9/11 to imply that we are simply getting what we deserve.
And, unfortunately, the media will never report on the good things that happen in Iraq and Afghanistan. Soldiers can tell you how grateful many of the ordinary citizens are for the American presence in those countries, and the many ways we have made a difference, especially in Afghanistan. But you’ll never see that on the front page of the Washington Post.
kgotthardt:
True, eventually they will succeed. The point though is to delay their success as much as possible.
We need time. Time to fight 60 years of cultural and political inertia…thinking and acting like an empire. And that includes the political inertia of empire on both sides of the political aisle.
Anything we can do to buy more time should be done. The most important thing in the short term is to prevent the escalation of this religious war.
If Al Queda succeeds in detonating a catastrophic weapon in an American city, this war will spin out of control.
I just asked 2 questions Emma. I didn’t state how I felt. Why that ration of crap you dished out at me? I have no choice but to believe you are a member since you didn’t say you weren’t. You sure have bitten off a lot of supposition there. My neighbors have told me a little about hsm. Pretty much all I knew…before I got my head ripped off.
Emma:
The citizens of Iraq and Afghanistan who are grateful are not the problem. They are not important.
The important thing is that there are some who are not grateful. In fact, they are seething with anger that an Infidel power is occupying the land of the two rivers, the Tigris and Euphrates, modern day Iraq, the second holiest land in Islam.
Our actions are causing thousands upon thousands to join the ranks of Al Queda. We are strengthening the enemy. We are strengthening them because they draw strength from their religion. When we attack their religion, they get stronger, because those who share their religion turn to them. If we stop attacking their faith, Al Queda will lose strength. That is what we want. The gratefulness of a few Iraqis of Afghanis means nothing next to weakening Al Queda by depriving them of the greatest recruitment tool they’ve ever had, our occupation of the second holiest land of Islam.
Got your “head ripped off”–really, Dakota? All I’m saying is that not all roads lead to HSM. I’m not a HSM member, but so what if I were? Would that make all of my opinions invalid? Do you suppose that everyone who takes issue with illegal immigration is in lockstep with HSM? You are certainly free to believe whatever you wish about me or about HSM, but no one attacked you.
And I respectfully submit to you, Mackie, that those grateful citizens ARE important. They are, for example, the women who were previously barely even allowed out of their homes, not allowed to work or to go to school, or to show their faces in public. How can we go around crying for Darfur and not for women whose rights have been so grossly violated? Pull out of their country, abandon them (yet again) and they will suffer grievously. You really think we will be safer if we let those countries fall back into the hands of religious extremists? Do you REALLY believe that Al Qaeda will then leave us in peace, because we have given their holy land back to them? Pulling out will show our cowardice and weakness, and it will empower them beyond all expectation.
Emma:
Let me qualify what I said. They are not important to our national security. They make no difference, positive or negative, to our national security. As far as our national security goes, they might as well not exist. Therefore any discussion of Iraq should not include these people. They are as inconsequential as concern over Iraqi drinking age laws.
If you want to help these people, I certainly would agree it is a noble impulse. I think it would be more appropriate to start your own private organization that’s dedicated to promoting the interests of these people. I also uphold your right to place your life on the line to help these people. I also uphold your right to persuade others to join your organization and pick up rifles and go to Iraq to help these people. I do not support your desire to hijack our flag and put our whole country in danger for the sake of your personal interests.
The American military exists for one reason. To kill our enemies in defense of our constitution. It is a organization of limited size with a very narrow and specific purpose.
The American military does not mold and remake the culture of an ancient people. That is a lunacy that should be clear to us all by now, more than 5 years after the start of this war.
Our presence is empowering the enemy. Al Queda draws it’s strength from the grievances of the average Muslim on the street. That is their Achilles heel. Take away the grievances and they will weaken.
Al Queda will never take over Iraq. Iraqis would never allow it.
I agree with you Emma, with one addition…Afghanistan is not the problem with our foreign policy, Iraq is. Unfortunately, right or wrong, we’re committed there (in Iraq) and, should we pull out at the wrong time, it will just be another Vietnam. A major problem that we have in Afghanistan, however, is the US support of the warlords…many of whom are worse than Al Qaeda and are feared as much, or more, by the Afghans. If the US had not decided to enter Iraq, perhaps they could have sent in sufficient forces to resolve BOTH problems in Afghanistan, rather that exacerbating one in order to deal with the other.
Correction: “rather thaN” exacerbating