When I watch this story, I am compelled to reach a consensus regarding a reasonable humane immigration solution. Is this the immigrant we want to focus our time and attention on? Don’t you think our collective immigration energy and MONEY should be focused on real criminals, like murderers, gang bangers, and felony criminals? If this was your sister, what would you do?
104 Thoughts to ““Death by Detention””
Comments are closed.
Archives
Categories
Blogroll
- 9500Liberty
- Bacons' Rebellion Blogspot
- Bearing Drift
- Blue Virginia
- Citizen Tom
- Counts of Monte Cristo. The
- Derecho, The
- Dixie Pig, The
- My Side of the Fence
- My Star Journey
- NARAL Pro-Choice VA Blog
- New Dominion Project
- Nova Common Sense
- NovaTownHall Blog
- One Libertarians's Point of View by Al Alborn
- Pete Candland's Blog
- Potomac Local
- Prince William Muckraker
- PW Conservation Alliance
- PWC Moms
- PWCPolitics.com
- PWCPolitics.com
- Red NoVA
- Shad Plank, The
- She the People
- State of NoVA, the
- The Jeffersoniad
- Townhall
- VEA Daily Reports
- VivianPaige
- WDGolden.com
- You, Me and the Lamp Post
All contents copyright Moonhowlings.net
Blogroll
- 9500Liberty
- Bacons' Rebellion Blogspot
- Bearing Drift
- Blue Virginia
- Citizen Tom
- Counts of Monte Cristo. The
- Derecho, The
- Dixie Pig, The
- My Side of the Fence
- My Star Journey
- NARAL Pro-Choice VA Blog
- New Dominion Project
- Nova Common Sense
- NovaTownHall Blog
- One Libertarians's Point of View by Al Alborn
- Pete Candland's Blog
- Potomac Local
- Prince William Muckraker
- PW Conservation Alliance
- PWC Moms
- PWCPolitics.com
- PWCPolitics.com
- Red NoVA
- Shad Plank, The
- She the People
- State of NoVA, the
- The Jeffersoniad
- Townhall
- VEA Daily Reports
- VivianPaige
- WDGolden.com
- You, Me and the Lamp Post
Emma you said:
but then you said:
Emma…remove the splinter from thine own eye…I hardly think you’re being fair to me here.
hello:
Actually I asked about the Christian faith because most people in the area are of the Christian faith but I agree that the same concern for innocent life is a cornerstone of all the faiths you noted above.
I still don’t understand why people adamantly refuse to talk about their faith in the context of this tragedy?
Emma, 26. June 2008, 12:41
I think that Emma pretty much sums up my feelings about this sad incident. To add to her perspective, we can’t very well get rid of police forces because there is police brutality or ICE because someone was tragically careless with someone’s life. Accidents happen for many reasons. Not enough personnel present? Stupid staff member? Uncaring staff member? We won’t know, in all probability.
Mackie,
Probably for the same reason some people attack churches for feeding the poor and providing serices for immigrants. Just a suggestion. I know that Bull Run Universal Unitarian and the local Catholic Churches have been under fire for various activities that involve help for immigrants.
To me, that’s what churches are supposed to do.
For example look at what Slowpoke Rodriguez said:
There is no condemnation of the criminal negligence of ICE in slowpoke’s post. In fact, isn’t he really saying that ‘Death in Detention’ is one of the ways we hold people ‘accountable’ for crossing the border? He ought to be rejecting it wholesale as a potential consequence shouldn’t he?
Mackie, I think that people refuse to talk about their faith not matter what the subject matter is. Why? Because it simply doesn’t matter. What difference would it have made if stw responded to you and said he/she was a Rastafarian? Would that change what you would have said if stw said he/she was Christian?
Are there any churches in the area that are actually against undocumented workers? I heard that some church leader had sent out an email saying that those who support undocumented support disease, crime, gangs, cultural degradation, etc.
Which church does Greg attend? Does anyone know what their stance on this issue is?
Mackie- Wonder what the Westboro Baptist church would have to say..
You know Fred Phelps, isnt he a christian?
and for this VERY REASON you shouldnt bring in religion, I dont care who or what religion you follow, Every chuch has their own agenda…
again..dont use religion as a strategy…
AND also want to add, wasnt it Catholic charities that paid for an immigrant to have an abortion?
Since you opened the can of worms:
Mackie- Whats your Christian belief on same sex marriage? Does your Church accept homosexuals as equals?
“Which church does Greg attend?”
Who the frig cares?
“Does anyone know what their stance on this issue is?”
Am I a “their”? If so, Emma and Moon-Howler sum up my stance nicely:
“No one condones this death. It was simply a matter of perspective–was this happening on a mass scale with ICE or are these isolated incidents? There really is no insight as to the actual scope of the problem. No matter how well-thought-out a system is, someone will ALWAYS fall through the cracks, because the systems are managed by fallible human beings. Every death is a tragedy.”
“I think that Emma pretty much sums up my feelings about this sad incident. To add to her perspective, we can’t very well get rid of police forces because there is police brutality or ICE because someone was tragically careless with someone’s life. Accidents happen for many reasons. Not enough personnel present? Stupid staff member? Uncaring staff member? We won’t know, in all probability.”
Again with Greg? The last time I checked this guy wasn’t some god. What’s up with this fixation on Greg from which church does he go to to what his last thread was about. Who cares!? Good lord, you would think that this guy is 20 feet tall has horns and breathes fire or something. So if Greg was a Rasta and went to the local Rastafarian church what difference would it make!?
This just in… Greg had a bowl movement, that obviously means something, lets all talk about it… 🙂
Hello,
I agree a person’s faith or lack there of does NOT matter. I think the point is that there are many that claim to be good Christians. You know the ones that like to quote and copy bible verses. We’ve seen them on bvbl. Yet their behavior and comments are anything but Christian like at times. This is what I at least made of Mackie’s comment.
Mackie,
Please, correct if my wrong. Are my comments regarding the Christian to hello on the right track?
Mando,
This death is horrifying. However, I do think for the most part individuals in the custody of ICE and any detention facility for that matter are taken decent care of.
Now, this is a classic comment. imho
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~:<
Mando, 26. June 2008, 13:27
“Which church does Greg attend?”
Who the frig cares?
Hello, well he is. You ought to see the big scorch mark he left….I AM kidding. I just got this mental image when reading what you wrote.
I would think that Greg’s church is off limits for discussion here. I think in fairness, discussing the part of Greg’s religion that he has made public would be appropriate. Anything else, including his church is taboo. That’s sort of right up there with family members and pets.
“This just in… Greg had a bowl movement, that obviously means something, lets all talk about it… ”
I bet it had an HSM sticker on it. Better videotape it and put it on YouTube.
If it was a sinker, he is in bad health but if it was a floater, then he is in GREAT health…
Sooo Mackie- How was your Poo today?
Mando- LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
I needed the laugh!
Thank you!
As for Westover Baptist Church….I feel I can say with a clear conscience that they do not demonstrate what is commonly thought of as Christian behavior. (or appropriate behavior of any other major world religion either)
They have hijacked the word ‘Christian’ in my opinion. I expect the mainstream Baptists are also horrified that their name is being sullied.
MH,
You are 100% correct in that Greg’s church is off limits. This is true of anyone’s church. That is a very personal matter and one that no one should have to answer for. I am still curious about those that spout religion and then act otherwise. This is a general statement here as to behavior. I’ve seen several guilty of coming off pious.
Ok guys, no more bathroom humor.
Moon-howler- Which was the point I was trying to make to Mackie..You can call yourself a Christian but depending on which Church you attend determines your actual beliefs.
Which is why I think Religion shouldnt be used as a strategy here….
What was the topic again? Seems we are all over the place here….
I was just wondering if there were any churches out there that were against undocumented immigrants. I don’t know of any personally so I asked about Greg’s because I figured if any church was against the undocumented it would be his. I’m not really curious as to what church Greg attends. I’m just curious as to how churches which are opposed to the immigrants can reconcile their stance with the teachings of Jesus Christ. This topic would be pretty fascinating to explore. When Greg says that ‘without Law the Gospel has no meaning’ I think this is pretty powerful stuff. I’m wondering if he got it from his church? Does anyone know where this teaching came from and if any churches are promoting this interpretation of the gospel?
And can everyone please calm down. The sky is not falling…yet.
Moon-howler, 13:49
Just one more 🙂
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cM0L6zp7mJI&feature=related
“What was the topic again? Seems we are all over the place here….”
A non-topic. Sure, it’s sad this girl died but really has jack to do with immigration reform. Alot of people die needlessly and of neglect.
This Verizon contractor scandal going on is a topic worthy of debate.
This just in… Greg’s toilet isn’t going to take it anymore 🙂 let’s all talk about it. What are his toilets immigrations view? What isn’t he going to take anymore, illegal immigrants? OMG, he got his own immigration views from his anti-immigrant toilet!! 🙂
Come on Mackie, let’s get over Greg, let’s talk about the issues. Don’t get sidetracked by the whole “what would Greg do” syndrome.
And Mackie, that is a legitimage question if we get the personalities out of it.
Most major religions and denominations within the Christian faith definitely speak to good deeds. It certainly is the fountain of Christianity to provide for others who have less than we do.
I would have to disagree one section you wrote, Just Cause: ….. “depending on which Church you attend determines your actual beliefs. Maybe yes/Maybe no. How about the Catholics who practice birth control? Mormons who drink coffee and coke and marry outside their faith and don’t become sealed? How about some of the Baptists whose church speaks against drinking but imbibe? How about the many evangelical women who have abortions?
Perhaps the church you attend is habit, family tradition, a requirement of a family member, or just the closest thing to your beliefs. Just something to think about in this discussion.
Mackie-
Westboro Baptist Church..
They believe God hates America!!! and that 9/11 was a celebration of gods work so try to explain their stance with the teachings of Jesus Christ to me…
as for Greg’s Church it really isnt any of your business..his family and his church are off limits in my book.
and you haven asked my question in the previous posts either…
Moon-howler- I dont go to church…
Maybe I should of said “its not the religion that determines the belief but rather the PERSON teaching the religion” either way, we are on the same sheet with this..just spoken differently.
Moon-howler, you are an inspiration today!
The teaching that ‘Without Law the Gospel has no meaning’ is a very powerful religious argument in favor of the resolution. Does anyone know where this teaching originated?
Martin Luther and John Calvin.
‘Without Law the Gospel has no meaning’
10 commandments….right?
and according to “google” Martin Luther
Nope, I don’t know at all. But I am hardly an authority.
From the little bit I do know, I would say that ‘Without Law the Gospel has no meaning.’ pretty much shoots down most of Christianity if you think about it. It isn’t something I would want to be quoted as saying. It seems to put carts before horses.
Marie said: Being here illegally does not make one a criminal. It is a civil offense.
I bring this up not to fan flames but as an interesting matter. I have seen this comment about coming into this country illegally as being only a civil matter before so I searched the Cornell University Law Library and came across this part of the US Code. Although I am not a lawyer (and maybe a lawyer on here can enlighten me) but this sounds like a criminal offense as well as a civil matter (whether the US Government prosecutes or not does not change that something is a criminal matter.) It also says that the civil penalties are in addition to the criminal penalties. I do know that title 18 referred below is a criminal statute–
TITLE 8 > CHAPTER 12 > SUBCHAPTER II > Part VIII > § 1325
§ 1325. Improper entry by alien
(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts
Any alien who
(1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or
(2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or
(3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
(b) Improper time or place; civil penalties
Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to enter) the United States at a time or place other than as designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil penalty of—
(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or attempted entry); or
(2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under this subsection.
Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not in lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be imposed.
Slowpoke,
First of all, please demonstrate you are interested in debating the facts of this story. Sandra did not sneak into this country illegaly, she had been a legal resident for 33 years. Now, even if she HAD snuck in, you do not LOSE your rights as a human being just because you may have committed a civil offens or a misdemeanor crime, or even a felony! In this democracy, everyone has constitutional rights, does the 8th amendment ring any bells to you? Being denied proper medical care is considered cruel and unusual punishment. I will not debate religion, except to add that both christianity and judaism follow the same tenent, you know, that tired old golden rule thing.
Do you guys think the teaching Without Law the Gospel has no meaning is being misused when it’s used to support the resolution?
Mackie, who is using that to support the resolution?
hello,
Could you please stop dodging and simply answer the question instead of changing the subject?
Mackie, what question am I dogging? I just asked you who uses the phrase you point out to support the resolution…
Mackie, no one is going to offer any conjecture on the spurious connection you are making. If nobody is teaching it, than how is it being used to support the resolution?
You’re setting up a straw man. How about talking about real life instead?
Haven’t you guys seen the gospel video on 9500 liberty? The Christian theological argument in favor of the resolution was clearly laid out. Here is the video in case you haven’t seen it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpAWEMOgAJw
Now, my question to everyone here is whether this theological justification holds any water?
Mackie,
“Now, my question to everyone here is whether this theological justification holds any water?”
I would say it STARTS with where the water (that was free) came from. It can be collected from a natural stream or filtered and bottled. I would associate it with the question of man’s law vs God’s law….( ok, ONE more, the chicken or the egg, lol)
You know Mackie, I can’t help much on this one. For me, I live my life by this passage in the Torah:
“you shall love thy neighbor as thyself.” Hillel, a leading sage at the turn of the common era(when Jesus Christ was also preaching his message), explained this phrase to mean “do not unto your fellow man, what is hateful to you” he then said”this is the whole law(torah), the rest is commentary. Now go and learn.”
I believe people get so caught up in the words, they forget the underlying message of
G-d.
And if it holds any City of Manassas water, which has trichlorethylene, it’s no good at all.
Ah, the old “Do unto others as you would have them to unto you.” The Golden Rule is a major belief, foundation if you will, of every major world religion. It must be saying something right.
Karen is, of course, the perfect example of the hate she sees in others. It’s a common psychological problem, transferral, I believe. And see, Karen, I take responsibility for my actions, and I DON”T BREAK THE LAW!!!!! I know if I break the law, there are consequences. Prisoners have rights…..hey, there’s a spot for you on the Supreme Court!
I agree Moon-howler, “it must be saying something right.”
Slowpoke, I’m sorry you feel this way.
Normally I try to stay out of these ducking and weaving, half truth, second hand, hear say discussions, but thank you A PWC Resident for finally proving to all unbelievers that illegally entering the US without permission or documentation is a criminal offense from a criminal statute Title18/8. I wish more people would put facts into their arguments and stop trying to mis-represent fiction as truth, just because they are angry and want to mis-lead people to an angry and emotional response.
I also agree with “Elena” (spelled it right this time Elena, for you ) Every one is entitled to basic civil and individual rights, basic medical care rights which are governed by our constitution and law, even POWs. It is a sad thing when any person dies for any reason. It is especially sad when conditions that can be preventable, are not prevented. That is the real issue here isn’t it? Whether her death was a result of “legal negligence” or a result of “circumstances beyond any reasonable procedural control”.
That is what I would like to know, were the conditions surrounding her death any different than the medical circumstances around any other detainee in any other detention center in the US? Or are we just isolating her death to imply that something is wrong with the entire medical support staff of detention centers throughout the US based on one tragic incident? What is the legal standard applied to all detention centers? Should it be equivalent to all hospital standards? Or will some people die more often in some hospitals in the US, because of lack of funding, lack of resources or lack of qualified medical personel, or lack of “elite” medical personnel and medical supplies, in some hospitals more than in others? Are detention centers by law required to have the same standards as the best of those hospitals or the worst of those hospitals?
The fact that she comes under “law” and is deportable under “the law”, based on her commission of criminal behavior, seems to bother no-one here. It does bother me however, when we say we should just ignore that law. That law was designed to maintain a selection process for the best people possible to enter this country (the most moral and most beneficial to our society) and protect the “rest” of us 360 million people from “people” who come into this country illegally, and once “legal” but conditional, capable of committing by their actusal actions, have committed crimes. The legal right to deport “non-citizens” who are under permanent residence status (a conditional probation period, designed that way for a reason), who commit crimes is a legal and protective law designed to improve our society rather than destroy it.
None of you seem to understand why these laws are justified, because none of you believe that some people (in this case, permanant residents on conditional status, until they become citizens) are not contributing to the betterment of our nation, by their very “Actions” in breaking the law.
These people are not above the law, nor should any of you be advocating we allow any one to break it.
If you don’t like the law, change it, and debate this issue with the rest of us 360 million people who want this same law to protect US and OUR CHILDREN from criminals coming into the country, or becoming criminals on conditional permanent resident status. We already have enough criminals who by birthright or citizenship status are entitled to commit crimes, and be allowed to remain in our neighborhoods, continuing to be a threat to all of US and our CHILDREN who do not commit crimes. “Criminals” rarely reform, I DON’T FEEL SORRY for them (I do sympathize with preventable tragedy however) and our only option when we discover a criminal is to take them out of OUR environment where they can harm us and put them someplace where they can only harm themselves (like a jail or prison). Individuals make their own lives either successful or miserable, by their own “actions”. Some individuals like this poor woman, as a result of her own “actions”, are placed into situations that are less “safe” than others. I would not consider any jail or detention center “safe”, any more than I would consider every hospital 100% capable of “preventing” my death if I go there. All we can rely on and should rely on is that a “fair” and “common law standard” is applied the same to all regardless of race, gender, religion, or ethnic group. We have not yet required the law to be applied the same to all based on IQ, wealth, criminal status, or non-citizenship status, as these are by law “legal”discrimminations based on a person’s actions, skills or lack of, performance, environment or personal choice.
Why does everyone keep thinking we can live in a world where everything must be “exactly” the same or it pisses us off? That is not only unrealistic, but ignorant as well. The standard of the law is the best you will ever get to being perfect in a democracy. All other forms of government and treatment of individuals has always been shown in history to be worse than our current US Constitution, our laws and our “democracy”. You who have not traveled the rest of the world as I have, don’t know how good you have it. So stop trying to destroy it by saying “illegals” should be “legal”. They should not and never will be. If you follow a legal process and “standard” of law applied equally to all regardless of race, gender, religion or ethnic group, and follow the law, rather than break it, you will not have to deal with the “law enforcement” process, consequences, and the anger of 360 million people left “unprotected” by that law if you ignore it.