EG posted the link to this article, I read it, and thought it would be a great topic of discussion. Here are some excerpts, but I really urge everyone to read the entire article.
Whether their brief detention was a mere inconvenience or a flagrant violation of their constitutional rights is the subject of a growing debate that seems likely to be resolved in federal court. Immigration officials, charged with enforcing the law against the estimated 12 million undocumented foreigners in the USA, are mounting more raids at slaughterhouses, restaurants and factories.
Increasingly, U.S. citizens and legal residents who work alongside illegal immigrants are being detained and interrogated, too. And some, such as Dhopade, are filing claims or lawsuits against the government.
Dhopade says he was a victim of racial profiling by ICE. An ICE agent questioned him about his immigration status and his ability to speak English “because of my skin color,” he says. “None of the white folks in the office … that I know of were asked for proof of citizenship. To be asked for proof of citizenship, in this country, it’s an insult. This is the United States of America. This country does not require that.”
“You cannot in this country engage in group detentions of large numbers of people because you think a smaller number within the larger group has done something wrong,” Schey says. At the Van Nuys plant, ICE “created a powerful atmosphere of fear and intimidation. People felt like they had been taken hostage.”
Barbara Coe, chairwoman of the California Coalition for Immigration Reform, says raids “are providing the incentive for at least some of these illegal aliens to get out of here before they are deported. I don’t think there are enough raids. There should be more.” She says she’s sorry legal residents are sometimes questioned during raids but believes ICE needs time to determine who is here legally.
So does Mark Krikorian of the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington. “It’s not the end of the world,” he says of citizens who are detained. “These people were briefly inconvenienced. Too bad.”
Denise Shippy, nine months pregnant the day of the MSE raid, says it was more than an inconvenience.
She had planned to take off that afternoon for parent-teacher conferences and a doctor’s appointment. But Shippy, 30, needed to train a receptionist to fill in for her while she was on maternity leave, so she took her two children to the office with her. The raid occurred as she settled Cassidy, 7, and Ricky, 9, into the mailroom for lunch.
As she left the mailroom, Shippy found the lobby filled with ICE agents, and she, the children and co-workers were herded in there. When Shippy tried to respond to an e-mail, she says, one ICE agent said, “Stop typing.”
“My rights were violated,” Shippy says. “I am a citizen of this United States. I was born here. I’m not who they’re looking for. I wasn’t allowed to leave. … I couldn’t go anywhere and couldn’t do anything. Neither could my children.”
Although she was upset, she tried to calm her kids, she says. She needed to use the restroom, but held off because she didn’t want an agent to accompany her.
“I didn’t want to scare the heck out of my kids,” she says. “I was trying to be cool and calm for my children. My heart was racing.”
As long as ICE has a warrant to enter a workplace, Myers says, agents can conduct what she calls a “survey” to determine the legal status of “anyone within the premises.”
She cites a 1984 Supreme Court ruling that said factory surveys during immigration raids don’t amount to an unconstitutional detention or seizure of those being questioned, even U.S. citizens.
In its ruling, however, the Supreme Court emphasized that the employees in the factory were not prevented from moving around, continuing to work or leaving. The current raids are different from those the Supreme Court approved, Schey says.
ICE can question workers as long as the interaction is voluntary, “but what they’re doing (now) is not that,” he says, because workers think they have no choice except to answer questions — which may incriminate those here illegally.
ICE’s raids foster discrimination, says Domingo Garcia, attorney for the League of United Latin American Citizens. “There’s a lot of racial profiling. … If you look like a Hispanic, you’re detained or arrested.”
He says he plans to file a class-action, civil rights lawsuit on behalf of legal workers detained in raids, including Jesus Garcia, 27, a green-card holder from Mount Pleasant, Texas. Domingo Garcia says he will ask the court to prohibit ICE from conducting raids until it changes its policies to prevent racial profiling.
ICE agents went to Jesus Garcia’s home on April 16 in conjunction with a raid on a nearby Pilgrim’s Pride poultry processing plant, where he worked marinating chicken meat. Garcia, from Mexico, has been a legal permanent resident for a year and a half. When about 10 ICE agents and local sheriff’s deputies knocked on his door, they told him he was using the wrong Social Security number, says his wife, Olivia Garcia, a U.S. citizen.
Though Garcia showed the agents his green card, they handcuffed him and jailed him. He was released a day and a half later after agents told him he wasn’t the person they wanted, he says. He had spent the night in jail. “He said it was pretty bad,” Olivia says. “People were crying and screaming.”
Jesus Garcia, who has since left Pilgrim’s Pride for another job, says the mishap cost him three days of work. “I worked hard to get my residency,” he says. “And to take me to jail just over a mistake?”
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-06-24-Immigration-raids_N.htm?csp=34
Let me start with the FIRST question I have.
What constitutes a raid?
So I guess when I get forced into a DUI checkpoint, I can then sue because I wasn’t drinking?
Cool.
Emma,
You response is part of another question I have. The FIRST one I would liked answered is who, what, WHY and where a place can be raided?
I know from my own experience, that if I suspect a house of….fill in the blanks….I cannot get such action to take place NOR would I want a…fill in the blank…assumption on me
Red Dawn, 26. June 2008, 18:30
Let me start with the FIRST question I have.
What constitutes a raid?
A sudden, forcible entry into an area by a law enforcement agency presumably to catch many people doing something illegal (or in this case the assumption of BEING here illegally).
Red Dawn, 26. June 2008, 19:01
You response is part of another question I have. The FIRST one I would liked answered is who, what, WHY and where a place can be raided?
A raid is simply a mass arrest. The “why” is probable cause by a law enforcement agency that a crime is being committed on a big enough scale to require a big response. The “where” is anywhere said law enforcement agency has jurisdiction. The “who” is the aforementioned LEA. The “what”…dunno. 🙂
Thank God they upheld the Second Amendment today….
es_la_ley 🙂
Thank you but that sounds like the response I would get out of my dad ” whip ass and take names later” to be followed up with ” do as I say and not as I do”
Uggg…can you see the vision of me on the couch asking why? LOL
By the way, I was innocent in MOST of the arguments that he would use those terms against me, LOL
These are unconstitutional raids. They are direct violations of the 4th amendment. But ICE thinks they can get away with it because the victims may be undocumented. And of course because of all the short sighted enabler sheeple in our society who care more about their war on the working class immigrants than they do about protecting our Constitution.
You know Blackwater has an air force now? A private army thousands strong, highly trained, equipped with the latest technology…and beholden not to the Constitution but to the highest bidder…right here on American soil…and growing larger every day.
Do you know that Blackwater was deployed in New Orleans and shot American Citizens?
By the time that the short sighted enabler sheeple wake up, it will be too late to resist…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRk3awO1Jq0
But at least you’ll still have your guns, Mackie.
I thought you said we were in a painful period right now, but that you were optimistic for the multiracial future? Did you forget your lithium today?
But seriously, unless businesses get the hell fined out of them for hiring illegal aliens in the first place, these raids are nothing more than weak but high-profile attempts to solve the problem. They don’t work in the long term and they rarely sit well with many people. As long as the jobs are there, the illegal immigrants will be drawn to them. Part of me can’t blame them for exploiting loopholes–they’d be foolish not to. I’d like to see the costs of illegal immigration come out of some fat CEO’s stock options. Then you might see some real reform.
“unless businesses get the hell fined out of them for hiring illegal aliens in the first place, these raids are nothing more than weak but high-profile attempts to solve the problem.”
Emma, I agree. I think fining the companies would be more effective than raids. But I think a worker program would be even more effective…save everyone money, time and angst!
Mini Economic recovery party today. Non-ethnic business for those of you continually questioning where 9500 liberty has the parties. i think they are probably a good idea. This entire area has been hard hit. I know the store manager appreciated the small amount of business brought their way.
I am curious, didn’t HSM have an economic party over on the lake back in August for a restaurant who was doing the right thing in their eyes? Perhaps someone can refresh my memory.
Emma,
You’re right, I’m not optimistic about the future because of how easily some of the American public embraces blatant violations of their own Constitution.
And then they hysterically complain, not that the Constitution is being violated, but that businesses haven’t gotten ‘the hell fined out of them’.
I wonder if some Germans in the 1930s made similar complaints as their government steadily and systematically eroded their rights in order to ‘crackdown’ on the jews. These enablers cheered from the sidelines as the jews were rounded up. And they complained that the government wasn’t going far enough. And very shortly thereafter, the powers they had so recently ceded to the govt were used against them.
Bingo Elena. Too bad they all have compassionate conservative friends. We have a VP nicely funded by the Iraq war. What a wonderful example to us all!!
As I’ve said the only action against illegals is at the bottom of the food chain. Its tougher to deal with any higher up for our elected “leaders”.
Hey guys here’s some more barbarity in the name of the law. When hurricanes hit, the undocumented become expendable…until we need them to do the rebuilding, when they become useful…until the rebuilding is finished…
When fleeing deadly hurricanes in S. Texas, Border Patrol agents say undocumented won’t be allowed to evacuate
http://www.latinalista.net/palabrafinal/2008/05/when-fleeing-deadly-hurricanes-in-s-texas-border-patrol-agents-say-only-citizens-deserve-evacuation.html
Oh, brother, Mackie. I’m going to have an extra glass of wine tonight just for your sake.
I try to find some common ground with you, and you keep pulling rabbits out of your hat.
Cheers.
Mackie. Thank you for that terrible story.
Another fine example of dealing with illegals at the bottom. Local government is the front lines. Won’t that culling of evacuees be fun to watch on Lou Dobbs??
A few months ago I trotted out “A Modest Proposal” by Swift. I was told it was a bit extreme. Guess not.
And then there is the other side of Mackie’s story, from WTOP News:
McALLEN, Texas (AP) – Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff clarified that federal border agents would not impede a hurricane evacuation from south Texas by checking fleeing residents’ documents, diverting from plans confirmed by Border Patrol officials in the state only days earlier.
Speaking at a hurricane preparedness gathering Tuesday at FEMA headquarters in Washington, Chertoff said he wanted to “drive a stake through the heart of a misapprehension which is out there.”
“In the event of an emergency, and the need for an evacuation, priority No. 1 by a country mile is the safe evacuation of people who are leaving the danger zone,” Chertoff said. “Instructions to the Border Patrol and Customs and Border Protection are clear. They are to do nothing to impede a safe and speedy evacuation of a danger zone.”
Texas officials reacted with concern when patrol officials along the Texas-Mexico line said last week that checkpoints 75 miles north of the border would remain in operation during a hurricane evacuation. Officials also had said agents would make checks at evacuation hubs where fleeing residents lacking transportation would board buses.
Local emergency management officials feared the checkpoints could become bottlenecks for traffic fleeing the coast and the low-lying Rio Grande Valley, and could dissuade illegal immigrants and legal residents with undocumented family members from heading to safety.
“Now, obviously the laws don’t get suspended, but it does mean that our priorities are to make sure we can move traffic along quickly,” Chertoff said. “We’re not going to be bogging people down with checks or doing things to delay the rapid movement of people out of the zone of danger.”
The policy clarification continued locally Wednesday when Ronald Vitiello, chief of the Border Patrol’s Rio Grande Valley Sector, released a letter echoing Chertoff’s remarks.
“Our primary role in such events will be the safeguarding of life,” the letter said. “No enforcement role will be undertaken that will in any way impede the safe and orderly evacuation of any member of the south Texas population.”
Krista Piferrer, a spokeswoman for Texas Gov. Rick Perry, termed the idea of operating the checkpoints in a hurricane “nonsensical” and said the state was pleased to be back on the same page with the federal government.
“Gov. Perry spoke with officials with the U.S. Border Patrol and received assurances that, while patrolmen will always have a presence to ensure criminals do not try to take exploit an emergency situation, they will not stop people fleeing from harm’s way,” Piferrer said.
Hard to believe, but sometimes people are simply misguided, and the government does the sensible thing.
Hard to believe the feds actually stepped in. Got to admit their original plan scared the pants off DHS.
Regardless if it is the undocumented to the elite with middle class in between, Mackie puts out some good food for thought. I am not sure who would be labeled misguided, I know that I would rather ask and ask again then to follow the majority 🙂 I am such a rebel, hell yeah..LOL
One more time for FUN and NO, I am not out of music 😉
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L30V5vnYHzk
RD you delightfully make excellant points.
Emma,
Is this the same FEMA that handled the aftermath of hurricane Katrina so magnificently?
Perhaps we should think twice before placing confidence in their word don’t you think? Before we count on them to do the sensible thing…
I heard this crazy rumor that Gospel Greg’s little blog wagon has lost its wheels.
His traffic has fallen off so much that the best he can come up with for an attention-grabbing headline is a bogus book report about… this blog????
My, my, my how the tables have turned. There was a time not long ago … before Alanna and Elena hijacked Gospel Greg’s traffic, exposed his tactics, and robbed him of his influence … when the best we could do to get attention was to criticize Gospel Greg.
Now, I’ll admit I did my share of ridiculing him. Okay… more than my share! But the honest truth is I hadn’t heard him discussed in weeks until all of the sudden his name reemerges this morning at the water cooler, thanks to a contrived whine fest about this blog (exposed by Elenna on… THIS BLOG!).
That, my ladies, tells me that you’ve won. You’ve taken the bull horn away from the bully. I honestly don’t have an opinion about the angry people now posting here. So what if Gospel Greg’s little Hate Bunnies are now posting here. That’s just another sign you’ve won. Each time the Hate Bunnies take the time to demonstrate their ignorance and suggestibility by posting here, they only serve to remind us why this blog was SO DARN necessary! And, what a triumph it is that with it, you have communicated with your public officials, impacted county policy, and brought Prince William County’s “Immigration Policy” back to the same common-sense approach that many other local governments already have: immigration status checks post arrest.
The policy goes into affect on Tuesday. I never would have dreamed this possible just a few short months ago. Thank you. And congratulations.
No, it is not the same FEMA. “Brownie” is long gone. Reorganized, different director, many fired after Katrina. You expect a lot of perfection from human institutions. I hope you yourself live up to your own very high standards for everyone else. The government does do some things right. I’m not clear why you stay here if it is so awful for you. I’ve said this before, but I find it hard to believe that you are really so oppressed, living in suburbia with your high-speed internet connection and apparently a lot of free time to come up with all of your “rabbits.”
You’re just sour because you wanted everyone to believe that illegal immigrants were going to die at the hands of the Texas border patrol, until this uppity white chick challenged you.
I’m having a little more wine to help you feel better. Cheers again!
ICE raids are not unconstitutional regardless of the spin put on them here.
When a LE agency obtains a search warrant for a place or an object it is obtained with probable cause that what they are looking for (in ICE instances I assume it illegal aliens) is in the location. For ICE, examples of probable cause could be that someone has complained that their ssn has been used illegally at that location or that an informant (ex-employee for example) has provided evidence.
Once any LE agency enters the place, either on a local, State or Federal level, they are permitted to detain anyone there until they are identified and it is determined that they are not the subject they are looking for or not connected to the warrant. Numerous court cases on the US Circuit Courts and Supreme Court levels have supported this action by Law Enforcement.
So blame a judge, right Lucky Duck?
At least they have probable cause. When I write a check I am treated like a criminal with no probable cause.
lol cheers!
Juturna,
“excellant” LOL, I caught that and isn’t it most bodascious (sp) LOL!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijqnsRqSo2k
Rock on!!!!!
Well, Lucky Duck, I am glad to see you have returned. Thanks for that explanation. That sure cuts to the chase.
Ouch Juturna!
Hi Moon-howler, a few days doing some yard work. It has to be done.
Glad to see you do it yourself Lucky Duck.
Waht none of you have addressed is the “unconstitutionality” of a drug raid compared to an “illegal” immigration raid.
The key issue you don’t get is that you can’t “raid” until you have a “warrent”. A warrent is a legal order from a judge to “raid”. The raid is “legal” even if their are “innocent” people in the “crackhouse building at the time of the raid. It is up to the officers with the warrent to “legally” sort out the “suspiciously criminal” from the “verifiable” non-criminal, and make the decision to arrest based on that and the warrent, which gives them that right. The “judge” is then the final say on who stays in “jail” over-night.
The moral of this story is “don’t sleep in crackhouses and take jobs where your employer is also hiring illegal aliens”, all of which you will likely know far more about than the police, and the decision to be there is to make a decision to possibly end up in a “detained” situation, or even arrest, although not likely a “conviction”.
These “raids” will stand up constitutionaly just like any other “legal” police “bust”. You have to have suffiicient evidence of wrong doing at these locations before a judge will even issue a warrent order. That is what makes it “legal”, even if you don’t like the outcome. Just because you can file a lawsuit over this, doesn’t mean you won’t do anything but spend your own money fighting a “pre-approved” court order, and lining the pockets of some lawyers all to eager to make a buck off of your ignorance.
Sorry, lucky duck, did not see your post, you said it better than I could!
Lucky Duck:
http://www.aclu.org/immigrants/gen/35397prs20080520.html
If you would like to believe such things are compatible with our Constitution, I suggest you report to central processing for immediate chip implantation…for your safety of course…
WHWN, The reason this blog is gaining popularity over Greg’s is the real “debate” battle to be won is over the hearts and minds of the people here, the front line so to speak. Almost everyone on Greg’s blog thinks alike now and the battle of sanity has been won there for the most part. The insanity and media battle is really here, convincing and teaching liberals not to be so self-destructive to our nation.
Mackie the constitution uses the words “unreasonable”. A judge as an interpreter of the constitution and the law has made that warrent legal, because it is determined to be “reasonable” by a member of the judicial branch and interpretation of the law, by a person who uses “legal standards” and whose job it is to make those calls, regardless of how you think it does not “meet” the constitution. I would side with the judge before I would side with your opinion.
Michael:
Sure thing you sheep. The moral of this story is that our country is full of sheep who do whatever the guys with badges tell them to do. I’ve got a badge too. I bought it at the toy store…
Good luck resisting Blackwater…
Mr Mackie, or is it Ms. Mackie as I don’t know. Anyway, there is simply no reasoning with you regarding government. You seem afraid of it or paranoid to a point that living a life with any government involvement as simple as a driver’s license sends shivers down your spine.
I am for less government intrusion in anyone’s life. But I realize that some government action is necessary. Why? Because while most people are good, there are some that simply would not do the right thing when nobody is watching. Because without some order in life provided by government there would be no order, the strongest would always win and who would watch out for the weakest? Because most people realize that any Country, State or locality would be awash in chaos without some form of government because there’d be no consensus.
If you are hanging your hat on the ACLU, you’d better get a new hat.
Mackie, please consider this when you think of government as the great satan.
Poll after poll has shown the American people are against illegal immigration and illegal immigrants. Do you know what affords them protection? Our government, our constitution, where the word “person” is written instead of citizens. Where do you think illegal immigrants would be with education if it was left up to individual school districts instead of the Federal GOVERNMENT? Ask yourself where would Prince WIlliam County be? Where would illegal immigrants be with healthcare if the Supreme Court (the GOVERNMENT) didn’t rule that healthcare must be provided? You want to trust a for profit company to do the right thing? You can’t have it both ways.
Juturna, 26. June 2008, 22:45
Funny Juturna 🙂 Sorry Lucky Duck, that was funny though.
Lucky Duck,
My question is this though, HOW do you determine, during an ICE raid, who may be here without proper documents? Just by looking at someone? Just by listening for who has an accent?
” Dhopade says he was a victim of racial profiling by ICE. An ICE agent questioned him about his immigration status and his ability to speak English “because of my skin color,” he says. “None of the white folks in the office … that I know of were asked for proof of citizenship. To be asked for proof of citizenship, in this country, it’s an insult. This is the United States of America. This country does not require that.” ”
“In its ruling, however, the Supreme Court emphasized that the employees in the factory were not prevented from moving around, continuing to work or leaving. The current raids are different from those the Supreme Court approved, Schey says.”
“ICE can question workers as long as the interaction is voluntary, “but what they’re doing (now) is not that,” he says, because workers think they have no choice except to answer questions — which may incriminate those here illegally.”
I don’t worry that I would ever be questioned about my right to be in this country, but if I had an accent, and looked “different”, I think I would be concerned. Doesn’t that say something about the state of our country right now? For now though, the reality is, and I understand this reality, I do, that if you are here undocumented, you risk the consequences if you are caught, and you could be deported. But are we losing the very foundation of our constitution, which guarentees rights and protections to all people that are on American soil, when we take a broad net in hopes of capturing undocumented workers?
Emma,
I have to say, I was a little surprised at your reaction to the story regarding the evacuation plans for Hurricanes. I would have thought you would have seen the reasonable side to this, ALL people should be able to leave a impending disaster, in addition to the fiasco it would have created for an orderly evacuation! That stopping people to check there papers was even actually a PLAN for more than a nanosecond is what concerns me. Thank goodness DHS stepped in and suggested some sanity. I appreciate your posting the entire story, thank you.
Michael, I question your assignment of sanity and insanity to people but…I guess that is open to debate. Who do you perceive as liberal here? I am very curious. Lucky Duck? Alanna? Red Dawn? Elena? Emma? Rick? Mando? Juturna? AWCheny? Elena? Mackie? Rod? Chris? Second Alamo? kgotthardt? Me?
Maybe I just don’t see many liberals who need to be taught. I see the people here as very independently thinking, educated folks with opinions who exchange ideas (most of the time using good manners)
Liberal or rebel? I am still trying to distinguish the difference between the independent, to the moderate…oh, well, that is what keeps people going….
Tomorrow:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heQi0AZBH-0
LOL, some of you thought I would do Annie again 🙂
Michael,
I find it very telling that you believe we, on anti, are fertile ground to be converted to the group think like Greg and the folks over on bvbl, or at least the 10 or so people that still post, like you said “Almost everyone on Greg’s blog thinks alike now and the battle of sanity has been won there for the most part.”
I love my country, I love passionate debate, I love diversity, and that is what we have here on anti, like it or not, WE respresent the diversity of ideas in this country. At least you have made your true intentions clear, you aren’t here to debate or learn from anyone, you are just here to show us the error of our ways.
I am not really interested in you “teaching” me how not be “self destructive” to my nation. Your quote below Michael:
“The insanity and media battle is really here, convincing and teaching liberals not to be so self-destructive to our nation.”
Lucky Duck,
I guess you can go on putting words in my mouth if it pleases you. I do believe there is a place for govt in our society but it has grown way out of control. And I’m surrounded by those who actually think it’s allright for the govt to become even more draconian because they don’t like the lawnmowers who live next door.
It’s amazing that you embrace the govt tapping your phone, reading your email, and repealing 800 years of habeus corpus. Your complacency is bordering on the delusional. You even support further violations of Americans to the point where people can be illegally detained. Thats almost criminal. Something tells me though that you don’t have to worry about being detained yourself…
That is exactly what you are undermining. WHy are you so eager to give away your freedoms? Or is it that for some reason you perceive that it’s not really your freedom that will be infringed?
Mackie,
There is no question that our government, especiallly as it relates to the Iraq war and all the issues that surround how, what , when, why, and where are clearly troubling, and as citizens we should all want to have more answers. I am very troubled at the mercenary component of this war. However,inherently, I believe in our Democracy and the premise of a “social contract”. I believe that we need government to supply the infrastructure that helps create a civil society(schools, roads, hospitals, a legal framework) and to ensure the safeguards for the most vulnerable. Our Democracy is not perfect, we continue to strive to attain that “more perfect union”, but I believe, for the imperfect human, it is still the best system in the world.
Hi Elena, during an ICE raid, you determine who is legal by identification.
Is not speaking or comprehending English a valid factor? Yes, it is. Remember, the original Prince William Resolution had this as a probable cause factor to question immigration status. This factor, based on numerous court rulings, was reviewed and approved by the County Attorney’s office, the Virginia Attorney General’s office and the US Attorney for Virginia’s office. Whether we like it or not, its a legal factor.
The story states ““ICE can question workers as long as the interaction is voluntary, “but what they’re doing (now) is not that,” he says, because workers think they have no choice except to answer questions — which may incriminate those here illegally.” Again, the Supreme Court has ruled that if the person has the ability to decline the interaction, it is voluntary. Whether that person has the knowledge of this, according to the court is irrelevant. The sixth amendment against self incrimination does not apply.
I understand your concern about casting a wide net in search of illegal aliens but we do it in other areas and have been for years (ex. DWI checkpoints is one example). Do I feel that if I am caught up in an ICE raid and have to show ID to prove who I am is troubling? No, that doesn’t bother me.
Mackie, an ICE raid is a valid, lawful and legal action. If the “lawnmowers” (your term and on a personal basis I think it borders on racist) next door are illegal aliens and become snared in the government’s action, then they are the consequences for taking the risk of entering the country illegally.
I don’t agree with anyone tapping my phone, reading my e-mail etc. (talk about who is delusional!) unless there is probable cause that I am doing something illegal and that has been reviewed by the courts who issued the warrants.
If I am detained, I wil have the ability to prove my identity and/or citizenship and will not mind doing so.
Talk about delusional, I am not looking out my windows for the Blackwater Air Force you warned us about….
Mackie,
I’m glad you clarified your point some. I too was wondering about what type of government you were advocating. You know, I appreciate how you force us to really confront the way we view our world. We are all coming at this issue from different life experiences and different perspectives. Having said that, I don’t think Lucky Duck is delusional, just viewing this through different lenses. How can I say this Mackie…….. you are a very compelling addition to the debate here, no question, I just wish you would leave out the very personal remarks to people. We all falter a bit here, me included, but maybe just try to leave the faltering to a few less instances 🙂
I don’t like the wide nets. I got stopped once for dui and had to go through all the field sobriety tests. I failed several because I was freezing, standing on ice, and was scared. When I did the breathalizer I blew 00. I had been truthful and said I had had a beer about 3 hours earlier.
I am still angry over it. My kids said Mom you ought to be glad you were innocent. That was not my take on the entire matter. I was pulled over because I was going too fast for road conditions. Now give me a break. I felt it was because I was a ‘lone woman out after curfew.’
I couldn’t do the things I failed right this minute. I just can’t do them. (heel toe and backwards alphabet)