112 Thoughts to “Behind The Veil: America’s Anti-Immigration Network”
Comments are closed.
Archives
Categories
Blogroll
- 9500Liberty
- Bacons' Rebellion Blogspot
- Bearing Drift
- Blue Virginia
- Citizen Tom
- Counts of Monte Cristo. The
- Derecho, The
- Dixie Pig, The
- My Side of the Fence
- My Star Journey
- NARAL Pro-Choice VA Blog
- New Dominion Project
- Nova Common Sense
- NovaTownHall Blog
- One Libertarians's Point of View by Al Alborn
- Pete Candland's Blog
- Potomac Local
- Prince William Muckraker
- PW Conservation Alliance
- PWC Moms
- PWCPolitics.com
- PWCPolitics.com
- Red NoVA
- Shad Plank, The
- She the People
- State of NoVA, the
- The Jeffersoniad
- Townhall
- VEA Daily Reports
- VivianPaige
- WDGolden.com
- You, Me and the Lamp Post
All contents copyright Moonhowlings.net
Blogroll
- 9500Liberty
- Bacons' Rebellion Blogspot
- Bearing Drift
- Blue Virginia
- Citizen Tom
- Counts of Monte Cristo. The
- Derecho, The
- Dixie Pig, The
- My Side of the Fence
- My Star Journey
- NARAL Pro-Choice VA Blog
- New Dominion Project
- Nova Common Sense
- NovaTownHall Blog
- One Libertarians's Point of View by Al Alborn
- Pete Candland's Blog
- Potomac Local
- Prince William Muckraker
- PW Conservation Alliance
- PWC Moms
- PWCPolitics.com
- PWCPolitics.com
- Red NoVA
- Shad Plank, The
- She the People
- State of NoVA, the
- The Jeffersoniad
- Townhall
- VEA Daily Reports
- VivianPaige
- WDGolden.com
- You, Me and the Lamp Post
Michael, after I pointed out that three of the 8 hate groups identified by SPLC in Washington DC are Black Separatists, you say (and I paraphrase): “Well, 99 percent of the national hate groups are probably white people and until SPLC finds as many non-white hate groups as white hate groups, SPLC is hate group too!”
So I decided to do another 2 seconds worth of research and clicked on the word Black Separatist from a list of Virginia hate groups. I got this link, which as a bunch of SPLC-identified hate groups that are likely NOT staffed by white people:
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/type.jsp?DT=3
I don’t know if the 99 percent accusation holds up or if it doesn’t. But let’s agree that there are indeed more hate groups run by white people on that list. I do not think this reflects badly on SPLC. I don’t even think it reflects badly on white people! There are a heck of a lot more white people in America than there are minorities. This is why we call them minorities. I take exception when people stereotype all minorities based on the actions of a few. And, i take exception people stereotype all white people based on the actions of a few. SPLC is not trying to hurt white people by standing up against hate groups. Get that through your head. You don’t have to defend white people by attacking SPLC. And you’re not going to convince anybody to attack SPLC with you based on this specious argument that SPLC hates white people.
So just be honest and tell it like it is. For what ever reason, you see F.A.I.R. as a political ally. Therefore, SPLC is a political enemy. Race has nothing to do with it. The problem for you with F.A.I.R. being classified as a hate group is that it forces the general public to take a closer look at what F.A.I.R. stands for. If you were at all confident that F.A.I.R. and the rest of the groups spawned by John Tanton could stand up to the scrutiny, you would not resort to this “attack the messenger” desperation tactic.
Ironically, you have called SPLC a hate group. I hope this means that the readers of this blog will take a closer look at SPLC, its history, its courageous stands against the KKK and other hate groups, and its current stand against John Tanton and F.A.I.R.
Elvis,
Don’t you think this sounds just a tad bit absurd?
Why would anyone ‘swing’ a blog to support anything but their point of view?
Actually Alanna (and I can testify that she is only one person) is pretty fair about presenting ideas she doesn’t necessarily agree with. You are misguided if you believe she is just a liberal girl.
Mackie, some people want to be a part of a guest worker program. They want to come here, do work that Americans might or might not want to do, and go home again. Not everyone wants to be an American. I find the Mexican 4th of July(American) chairs at Walmart to be an indicator of this phenomenon. Many current immigrants have one foot firmly in each place.
Michael:
Michael, today’s immigration law is completely abusive of working class immigrants. It takes advantage of their desperation. It knows that they are willing to accept living as undocumented in exchange for a chance to work. Michael, ask yourself how 12-20 million people could come here without our noticing? Where have we been all this time? All of a sudden, NOW we care? The timing seems kind of suspicious doesn’t it…just in time for an election. Why didn’t we care before? Because they were helping the economy grow. So we used them and abused them, and now we want to discard them. And I’m talking about the vast majority who are law abiding and hard working. I’m not talking about the ones who commit violent crime. Everyone agrees, they should go.
I don’t hate white people at all. I’m sure if blacks were the majority in the country, they would commit the same kinds of abuses against other groups, and the same thing goes for latinos, etc. I’ve been on the receiving end of bigotry from many different groups. Bigotry is a part of the human condition but we need to try to keep it out of our legislation. Everything you’re saying about how evil it is for one group to take advantage of another is true. I’m agreeing with you.
What you fail to recognize however, is that it is we who are taking advantage of them.
Michael,
If you think that bigotry against immigrants isn’t front and center in this debate then check out this ad for a woman running for congress in Alabama. It is dripping with bigotry. A bigotry that has been made palatable to the mainstream because it is cloaked in the illusion of upholding an illegitimate and abusive law.
http://www.wecanstopthehate.org/outrage/and_so_it_begins
Thanks, Mackie. Appreciate your posts.
Michael,
Haha Michael, what about the scenario when it’s the law itself that is abusive? Whats your solution to that?
Haha Michael, like the way the ‘law’ was applied to the victim in the following video link?
Does anyone think what happened to this poor man in the following link would have happened to someone who was white in Beverly Hills? Of course not…
If you’re black and run from the police, the punishment is death. Of Course, the police report (i.e. bullshit) said that the victim had said he would shoot the police. Haha. Sure he did.
http://www.streetgangs.com/journal/index.php?itemid=16#c
Hey Michael,
Here’s another example of how the law protects BLACK people just as much as it protects YOU…
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/11/23/racial.profiling/index.html#cnnSTCVideo
One very interesting revelation in this video is the hostile attitude of the reporter, a black man, Tony Harris, towards the victim. He even goes so far as to admit that it’s common knowledge in the black community. He said ‘You know in the black community we almost kid about that as being such a commonplace event’. His body language and words are dripping with contempt. This Tony Harris is a man who has a national platform and he is basically saying to all Black Americans ‘the 4th amendment against illegal seizures doesn’t apply to you because you’re black’. Haha. Uncle Tom.
Tony Harris is one fine, upstanding Uncle Tom who would agree with everything you have written Michael. His masters have paid him well.
I’m curious, and have a question for everyone here. Considering that Tony Harris is black himself, why do you think Tony Harris would be so contemptuous towards a Black Congressman who was standing up against what he perceived to be racial profiling?
WhyHereWhyNow, 27. June 2008, 22:53
It’s not costing more money for NS to respond quicker. They realize citizens are sick of looking at numerous blatant violations and are reporting them to PCE. More citizen involvement has helped too. PCE now knows many citizens to care and want to live in a clean neighborhood. Citizens have also gotten the attention of their Supervisors and they too are taking a more active roll. All of these factors contribute to the improvement of response time. I really feel just the demand of the citizens have made them step up to the plate. Which I feel they have done.
There was $1million moved to NS to help with the contractor expenses for tall grass cuts. I don’t think they’ve had or will have to spend that much money on the contractor. However, we’ve not gotten a much needed update on this matter. Mr. Covington did bring this money up this past Tuesday’s board meeting. I applaud his concern. He’s probably got the least amount of “neighborhood violations” of all the district. There was also a little “confusion” over an emergency ordinance that should’ve been acted on over a month ago. Then Mr. Principi inquired about it some too. However, he was wanting to duplicate some things that PCE already has the power to do. There really needs to be some serious thought/meetings regarding thes issues. I would urge them to get the citizens involved too. imho
Mackie, thanks from me also for your posts. You have great depth in knowledge, great skills in communicating, and, if you choose, great patience with those who are not as blessed.
Given that you have such clear advantages over those who try to debate you, it is wise, in my view, to exercise restraint in your word choice so that you reach the more readers (as you have on this thread), by coming across as gracious and fair-minded.
Oh, and Alanna, that advertisement from Harry-Ann Smith deserves its own thread. She makes me want to vomit.
http://www.wecanstopthehate.org/outrage/and_so_it_begins
NOTE: FOUL LANGAUGE IN THIS POSTING USED AS EXAMPLE ONLY
WOW Michael. You have many more examples of hate speech from the whole world than I do in this immigration debate! I guess it comes down to levels of tolerance and language. But then, I tend to have different boundaries than some people. I will listen to an AWFUL lot before I start calling it hate speech. I consider words like “invasion” and “Parasites” and references to children as dog food as hate speech. I consider certain words said against my gender as hate speech (i.e. “Your’re a slut….cunt…douche bag” you get the picture). And yes, I might categorize people who direct this language at me and other women as misogynists. I might call them idiots as well.
I don’t consider someone calling me an idiot or wigger or WOP or even dame or chick hate speech. I might call it offensive but not hate. I might call it ignorant and annoying as all hell, and I might get very irritated. But that’s not hate speech. Neither is using true irony (i.e. something I say but would NEVER EVER CONSIDER). Unfortunately, irony is rarely understood without the context of actually knowing the person. That’s why I label things “satire” or “irony” so people KNOW I am not serious. Irony is so over-the-top, most people know it won’t be considered (like J. Swifts “A Modest Proposal”).
Hate speech comes down to this. Does it affect society in such a negative way that people endorse it and act on it? Do people take the speech and put it into motion? Does the speech cause others to be persecuted, misrepresented, harassed, or discriminated against? Supporting one organization or another doesn’t do this automatically. It’s what the organization DOES that matters.
I would say, for instance, the MAFIA promotes hatred and violence against certain people. I might call them organized crime or a hate group. I would call FAIR the same thing as I would BVBL. For me, HSM is also a hate group because of the kind of leadership and socially negative action it endorses. I have suggested people who don’t want to be associated with BVBL/HSM/GL etc. leave the group and form something that will earn respect and take them away from the FAIR association. But that’s just my opinion.
I would say calling someone a “wigger” isn’t socially a good thing, but really, so what? It might make you really mad to be called that but unless there is underlying racial tension that is turning explosive, names are just names and words are just words that we hear in the media all the time. That’s why it’s so disturbing when the media uses words like “invasion” as common rhetoric. We don’t want hate speech becoming the norm, and as we know from television censorship, we might not even want swear words becoming the norm. Consider how television shows now have ratings, how words like “bitch” have made their way into mainstream entertainment, how music and games also have ratings…our word usage is changing in ways many of us do not appreciate. But I would say there is still a distinction between hate speech and offensive speech. I offend people all the time. We all do. That doesn’t mean it’s hatred, however. And as many a lawyer will tell you, “You do not have the right to not be offended.” You DO have the right to be protected from hatred, discrimination and violence, however.
Finally, if you want organizations that cater to others, try places like the Elks, Knights of Columbus, Sons of Italy, Irish American Club, etc. The wonderful thing about diversity is there’s something for everyone, EVEN YOU Michael : )
Damn this is long. I might even need to post this on my own blog! Hee hee. Thanks, Michael, for this morning’s cud.
KG, I’m not sure yyou can really categorize one word or another as “hate speech” or just simply “offensive.” It’s a matter of intent, and many of these words are used to demean, demoralize and objectify. It would be rare indeed if someone could claim they were well-meaning with any of those words.
I don’t see how you could possibly say that “WOP” is only “offensive” but “invasion” is “hate speech.” I am offended when I hear rappers use the “N” word, for example, because I see that as a taunt–“WE can use the word, but YOU can’t.” It’s all ugly.
Language is a dynamic entity, but I’m not sure most of the words you cited will ever evolve to have a pleasant intent. “Hate speech” is really just another political term to describe offensive speech that happens to be targeted at specific groups. The Golden Rule applies to all, doesn’t it? So why do you consider that words demeaning to ethnic groups are any more ugly and offensive than some of the words directed against women that you said don’t really bother you at all?
Name-calling is ugly in all its forms, and it is the last resort of people who can’t lend power to their speech in any other way. Some people come to it sooner than others.
KG, as an aside, you mentioned earlier you sometimes don’t like to look at the YouTube videos because of your kids. I kind of felt the same way with your post. My computer is right out in the open, and I don’t want to have to explain to my boy why Mom goes on websites with that kind of language. Just a thought 🙂
Hi Emma–
First, that’s why I posted the warning. The really “bad” words I posted as being more than offensive are examples of what I consider hate speech. And I cite those in particular because they have been directed at me. So I’m really sorry if I offended you, but I needed to be explicit as I asked Michael to be earlier on.
Second, as I said before, my tolerance for offensive speech is probably higher than most people’s. But when it comes to really hateful speech directed at someone because of race, religion, color, gender, gender identification, etc. that’s where I draw the line. Hateful speech is intended to demean. It is MEANT to be cruel.
I don’t like the “n” word any more than you do, but there’s a difference between pals greeting each other like that and someone who is using the word to demean. A perfect example is the talk between my old college friend and me. We might say to each other, “Hey B_ _ _ _! What up???” That’s not hatred. It’s just a kidding thing we do, a kind of satire/irony between us.
So yes, the golden rule should apply, but in some cases language is misunderstood. What is simply “blunt” to one person is offensive to another. And we ALL lose our tempers at time. Furthermore, our social and political systems are filled with name calling. We can’t escape it. What we need to do is to step back and assess, “At what point does this turn from anger to hatred or from stupidity to hatred and meanness?” I think we know the answer to this.
That said, I do get what Elvis calls “unhinged” sometimes. I have little patience for human rights being violated and I have to really control my anger when people insinuate it’s okay to seriously hurt someone physically or emotionally just because they don’t like a person for whatever reason. It’s not okay. Apologies are meant for angry, irrational outbursts. Explanations are meant for miscommunication. But there is nothing that can undo violence.
Here’s some more wisdom from Yoda, some I need to remind myself of often:
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”
We all get angry. We can’t let it get past that mark or we are doomed to hatred.
The more fearful we are, the more angry we are prone to become. Anger is a secondary emotion, second to fear or sorrow or other hurt.
For example, when I am in pain, I get really nasty sometimes. We see this in hospital patients who aren’t always nice to their medical staff. It’s hard to control but we have to. We must learn from ourselves and be humble enough to look at our weaknesses. I’m not exempt.
“Named must your fear be before banish it you can.” –Yoda
Alanna, thanks for posting this video. I’ve long suspected that local anti-immigrant groups here are fronted or at least being utilized by white supremacists, and this linkage between FAIR, CIS, etc. is most revealing. -SC
Alanna, 23:56
I had to leave yesterday so I was unable to continue this debate. I agree that we have situations where everyone in the nation has “benefited” from “illegal” aliens. But that does not means we have not been significantly hurt by “illegal” alien behavior too. That is the reason for the law, the damage outweighs the benefit by every measure used that I know of. Now that does not include “legal” and “controlled” immigration, where the nation im most metrics that measure it has benefited.
Here is a short list of where we have “benefited” from “legal” immigrants.
1. legal immigrants have helped increase our scientific knowledge base and innovation, in addition to providing innovative start-up businesses.
2. legal immigrants have added recreational and entertainment value to our entertainment industry.
3. legal immigrants have provided an additional low wage labor source, benefiting the lower overhead and increasing profits of businesses who rely heavily on low skill labor.
4. legal immigrants have increase our tax revenues, and increased our social security revenues by putting social security taxes into the national social security fund.
5. legal immigrants have contributed to the growth of our communities and in general have ethics that improve many of our communities, if they have come from a nation, a religion, a culture or a family that raised them as individuals to be ethical, honorable and of good character.
Here is a short list of my number one concerns for how “illegal” aliens have been extremely detrimental to our nation.
1. Because these individuals have already demonstrated they are not willing to do the ethical thing and enter the nation using a lawful and available process that “legal” immigrants have, they are already of a caliber and character that is willing to break the law, has lower ethics and not remorseful for the comission of crime. We are getting a predominance of “illegal” individuals of low personal character, willing to commit law breaking, fraud, steal social security numbers, commit burglery, commit sexual assault, rape and abuse young children and young girls, increase trash significantly in the neighborhood, violate zoning laws, drive without drivers licenses, steal power from the power company by illegally hooking a house directly up to a power junction and bypassing the meter, driving without tax stamps and using stolen license plates, leaving the scene of a crime, committing hit and run, not paying electric bills, not paying mortages and defaulting on loans they did not qualify for, presenting false documentation to businesses, extorting other people who are also illegal, running black market services and goods, loitering in “illegal” areas, taunting, harassing, and cat-calling business customers, urinating in public, threatening residents, participating in gang activity, creating drug cartels and crime syndicates, opening houses of prostitution, hiring and conducting “illegal” businesses with only members of their own race, gender, religious and ethnic group and destroying the wage scale and profits of legitimate businesses competing with “illegal” wages.
2. Illegally voting
3. Illegally supporting the election of people of their own race, gender, religious and ethnic group into local and regional governments who support only their racial, gender, religious or ethnic group interests.
4. Using community resources they do not pay for, reducing these resoruces for “legal” residents.
5. Supporting anti-US militant groups and political activism, whose goal is to overthrow the US government, regional or local government, operate local terrorist cells, and advocate for laws and “rights” that apply only to their racial, gender, religious or ethnic group.
The first item of illegal alien behavior is significantly destructive to all of us and to me personally as I have been personally affected by it and the cost in my taxes, my community, the value of my home, the wages I earn, have significantly been negatively affected by “illegal” aliens in my community and my personal recreational resources have been reduced, my peace disturbed, my children’s welfare and wage scale affected, and my children’s level and quality of education affected as schools and my local, state and federal government resources are forced to spend significantly more and more resources on “illegal” aliens. This reduces the wealth and prosperity of my community and my nation.
WHWN 23:17
I did not say the SPLC exists solely to pick on white people. I said they are biased and as a result of bias are equally “racists” in the way they only look at “white hate” groups, and members of “majority” groups with malice, attack and point out their immutable characteristics, as evidenced by the signicant numbers of those groups compared to the paultry number of “minority” based hate groups. You and I both know that the “standard” they are applying ” a hate group BY THEIR OWN DEFINITION OF WHO SHOULD BE ON THIS LIST is one that:
“All hate groups have beliefs or practices that attack or malign an entire class of people, typically for their immutable characteristics.”
This includes races, genders, religious and ethnic groups, both majority and minority groups that have beliefs, and practices (web sites, speeches, leaders, rallies, publications, books, parades, legal litigants, political advocates, and militant groups) that “attack or malign” an entire class of people, this includes minority “groups” that attack majority groups, or specifically other race, gender, religious, and ethnic groups not like themselves, and “exclude themselves from that group, self-segregate from that group and advocate for special laws to punish that group, attack, or malign that group, typically for their racial, gender, religious or ethnic group characteristics.
That list needs to include all the:
Male and female Gender hate groups in the nation (hundreds of them) that attack and malign and point out immutable characteristics.
Religious hate groups in the nation (thousands of them, monitored by the CIA and FBI) that attack and malign and point out immutable characteristics.
White, Black, Hispanic, Asian, Indian, Arabic, ethnic and racial hate groups in the nation (thousands of them, monitored by the CIA and FBI) that attack and malign and point out immutable characteristics.
VERY few of these groups are on the SPLC hate group list. I’m telling you they need to be and the list needs to be greatly expanded, or the SPLC is no better than any other hate group attacking and maligning comments against racial and ethnic groups and ignoring ones they favor (classic hate behavior by certain powerful individuals in that organization).
KG, a good post, I’ll have to come back later and comment.
Mackie you still don’t get it, you can only see one wrong done here, and totally “MISS” the other wrongs as a result of your anger agaist the government, law and the “majority” I’ll come back and try to help you understand the other side better, and maybe if you are open to honesty and truth you will get what I am saying.
I have to leave tonight to “date my wonderful THAI wife”, also once an “illegal” alien.
Mackie, of course the law protects black people as much as it protects me, it is a fair law and yes racial profiling does happen occasionaly (but rarely), it happened in Maryland but the case has not yet been determined as valid, still under legal investigation. That does not mean the “law” is unfair. THE LAW IS BEING FOLLOWED to PROTECT ALL OF US EQUALLY, THAT IS WHAT I’M TALKING ABOUT SOME OF YOU THINK CAN BE SELECTIVELY IGNORED AND DON’T GET. When you do this you are wrong.
As Obama says, this is a nation of Laws.
KG, the person offended is the one who defines “hate speech”, that is the law. The person who is using the speech is not the one who determines what is offensive and abusive to another.
Got to go, I’ll be back to continue this “debate”
–KG, the person offended is the one who defines “hate speech”, that is the law.–
Well, you might know more about that than I do. It has never been clear to me at what point being offensive becomes breaking the law unless it is in a structured environment like work/school, or unless, as I said, it results in violence (anywhere). On the internet, for example, there’s an awful lot of hate speech protected by freedom of speech law. That’s how GL/BVBL supports the right to spew out whatever they want without consequence.
Man, if only Yoda were in charge….
Since KG is flip flopping AGAIN – here is the link for what constitutes hate speech: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech
Notice, that while KG says that the term “wop” to her isn’t hate speech, it is defined as hate speech because it is a term that is derogatory against a persons ethnicity. But THEN she says in a later post:
“But when it comes to really hateful speech directed at someone because of race, religion, color, gender, gender identification, etc. that’s where I draw the line”
Personally, I’m getting tired of KG trying to defend herself over and over again. It’s okay for her to say in other posts that she hopes that someone “dies a slow, painful death”, but say that someone is an “invader” and she has a hissy fit. Sorry – not buying it.
And the crap about posting “irony” or “satire” after she makes a post that is offensive is just another excuse.
And why is it that you consider groups like HSM and FAIR to be hate groups, but MWB and La Raza aren’t? They are advocating the same type of action AGAINST Americans that you say HSM and FAIR are advocating against immigrants.
you wish, 28. June 2008, 21:47
AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!
You wish and stw,
First I would say, quit picking on KG,rise above it. I happen to see the big picture with her and that would be a BIG heart ( although, we have never met)
In the SAME token, I have to agree with you about MWB and La Raza.
I am curious and feel the same way myself and we SHOULD give it equal opportunity.
This has NOT been discussed and the it deserves the SAME attention as this is what seems to be the 2 sides in PWC……
Mackie 23:34
You twist words. Ethnic, racial, gender an religious political groups today “want” the law to be written to suit them, they politically gather into groups and keep trying to get the law changed to benefit them by political advocacy and electing people of their own ethnic group into powerful legal and political positions to sway the way the law is executed, sway the opinions of the judges (who for the most part still apply a “standard” of law, especially the Supreme Court,) and in some rare cases (Section 8A and divorce law) it still is written to their political benefit, but for the most part the law is fair and impartial and not based on gender, race, religion or ethnic group and legally it is applied the same for all. It is when it is NOT applied the same for all that we have conflict and discrimmination. What I am saying is that increasingly racial, gender, religious and ethnic groups are “IGNORING” the law, just like you want to “ignore” the law Mackie, and tell me how much you despise the law and the government Mackie, as if it is something BAD. The only thing “bad” is the criminals who chose not to follow the law and think they are above it. Lawlessness Mackie, which you seem to be advocating for, is the real problem in our society. Your arguments telling me to wait and see that someday the “law” is going to “abuse” me and improsion me Mackie don’t hold water. I can assure you the law will not harm me, not ever, as I do not intend to break it. That’s called good character, integrity, honesty, and lawfulness.
Mackie, anyone who runs from the police is being stupid, and putting their safety and well being into jeopardy. You’re trying to tell me it is OK to run from the police. Only people afraids of the police or who have committed a crime, “run” from the police. I can’t watch that video as I don’t have the bandwidth on this particular connection, but I’m sure you can search REALLY HARD and find some tape somewhere, that shows questionable law enforcement or leaves out some important fact that fails to show the whole story, but I can just as easily search the web and find THOUSANDS more cases were “criminals” are running from the police, shooting at the police, trying to kill the police (and others around them) and all the time lying and telling everyone “I didn’t do anything wrong”. I suppose all the police videos you see on TV are all made up right and the criiminals are really the good guys. I’ll trust the police anyday over the criminals and people who advocate it is ok to break the law. Your arguments are delusional Mackie, you grasp at straws to justify your feeble position.
Who knows about LaRaza? How long have they been around, what is the history?
Mexicans without Borders is not JUST homegrown like HSM and the help saves…
How about we start a separate thread to discuss? 🙂
WHWN,
I do not see Fair as a political ally. I belong to no political group. I advocate for myself, on my own principles. I don’t need Fair to tell the political world that advocating politically by race, gender, religion or ethnic group to gain special privilege and advantage is wrong. Even the advocates in the 60’s knew that un-equal application of the law was wrong.
Someday I’ll compare the behaviors of minority hate groups and majority hate groups for you and you will see they are the same today as they were in the 60’s, they exclude others (just like genders, races, ethnic and religious groups do today), they advocate for privileged application of the law, advocate to change the law to benefit only thier hate group, get special government programs spent only on them, refuse to “associate” in the same places, schools, public places, churches, recreational facilities, food venues, transportation modes and hospital resources. “exclusion” and separatism is a trait of the 60’s civil rights violations and the same hateful trait of “minority” exclusions, attack, denigration, denial of common law, and dis-association of the “majority” today.
Michael,
Have you lived in poverty so terrible, you would risk your life to cross a desert? Please, before you judge the “moral” character of those that have come here without proper documentation, judge your own imperfections first. Second, PLENTY of people have come here without proper papers, were subsequently able to obtain legal status, and have been upstanding citizens and contributors to this society. Did their moral character suddenly and miraculously become acceptable to you just because of a piece of paper?
Where is your proof that hispanics are illegally voting, and please, we all understand that is the group we are talking about, lets not play semantics here, I don’t have the patience these days.
Where is the proof Michael that supports all your conjecture, and please, don’t refer me evidence from FAIR or any of their minion groups.
“The first item of illegal alien behavior is significantly destructive to all of us and to me personally as I have been personally affected by it and the cost in my taxes, my community, the value of my home, the wages I earn, have significantly been negatively affected by “illegal” aliens in my community and my personal recreational resources have been reduced, my peace disturbed, my children’s welfare and wage scale affected, and my children’s level and quality of education affected as schools and my local, state and federal government resources are forced to spend significantly more and more resources on “illegal” aliens. This reduces the wealth and prosperity of my community and my nation.”
Elena, I commend you for demonstrating that you have read all or most of Micheal’s posts. I tend to skim for a “WHWN” unless it’s an uncharacteristically brief post. And even when I find them, I only reply when he offers a new idea. You are one dedicated lady.
Red Dawn, I’ve asked the same questions about HSM. We need the info on both of them (HSM and MWB). Who started these HelpSave groups? How did the local one get started? How were members recruited and by whom? Was FAIR involved in any way? Were the Minutemen involved in any way? Was there an immigration slant from the beginning or a neighborhood emphasis? Initially, HSM’s newsletter only listed the officers’ positions with an email link to them. Why weren’t the officers’ names listed? Was it just a matter of getting up and running and the positions weren’t filled (elected) yet? The server was kind of unusual too. I guess I’m an old-fashioned girl in that I like my clubs to be “open” and above board, not secretive. I understand not publishing members’ private info on the web, but I’ve never been a member of a club/organization that didn’t have a membership list. Afterall, one wants to know with whom one is associating. Much info needed on both fronts.
Michael, how do you reasonably expect people to set aside their various identifications (race, gender, ethnicity, etc.)? All of these factors make us who we are. And all were impacted (and continue to be impacted) unfairly by laws at some time in our country’s history. To expect everyone to suddenly change and adopt a white male perspective is rather “pie-in-the-sky”.
WHWN,
Did you see my response to you regarding Neighborhood Services? I didn’t get a chance to answer you until yesterday morning. You’d ask Friday afternoon about money for response time to being cut in half.
Censored,
It was a pleasure to meet you at our “mini-economic party” last week. I hope we can do that again sometime soon. 🙂
Yes, Chris, we’ll have to support the local economy again. It was a pleasure to meet you!
I don’t care if someone calls me a WOP because the persecution of undocumented Italians has neared its end in this country. It’s one of those past events that when we look back, we can scoff at the people who called us that. Look what Italians have given this nation! In other words, go ahead and call me WOP. I know first, it’s not true. Second, if you are not kidding, you are being prejudiced for your own insecure reasons.
Do you see the distinction? When the current lot of immigrants are being called “parasites” an “invasion” and “dog food,” people are NOT kidding. The crises is still at hand for these people. It’s happening NOW. And it’s NOT funny.
I’m sure some older Italians who had to face discrimination in their life times would be much more offended than I am at the term WOP. They were the ones who had to live through it, and for that, they deserve a hats off from younger people like me.
Red, thanks for the vote of confidence. Nothing I say to some people will ever get through because they are bent on what THEY believe about ME, not necessarily the issue and the philosophy behind the discussion. They don’t like to discuss cultural word usage, syntax, context, etc. So be it.
Chris, the WaPo has an article about Kisha Wilson-Sogunro’s work with the volunteers in Manassas neighborhoods. Hats off to Kisha and the many young volunteers who are actually doing something to improve the City.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/27/AR2008062703586.html
I have to disagree with you there, KG. All you have to do is to look at the popular culture. HBO’s The Sopranos depicted violent, fat, self-indulgent and Oedipal Mafiosos, and went on to be an enormous international hit. That image of Italians has not gone away, and organizations like the Sons of Italy try hard to mitigate the damaging image programs like that thrive on portraying, and they are not “kidding.”
You can’t just arbitrarily declare the “war” over on some groups, and worry about the more high-profile battles.
All the ethnic names are all a matter of degree and where you are. I don’t care what language people use in their own homes but when they are out in public in front of others, language that denigrates, even kiddingly, is totally inappropriate. The pretty much includes all ethnic and racial slurs. I also don’t care if the person doing the talking is a member of the ethicity being slurred. Tough. It is still inappropriate. Rude speech is rude speech, regardless of who says it.
Michael, as a non-male white person, I cannot adopt a white male persepctive any more than censored can. We are who we are because of our gender, our race, our region, our composite nationalities, our age, our interests, the list in infinite.
Sometimes I play the female card and without apology. My gender were second class citizens way too many years to play wink wink nudge nudge over it. If you are a white male, there is simply no way you can understand in your gut what I mean. I say this without hostility to you, just letting you know that some of this ‘no groups’ you write about falls on deaf ears.
I don’t think anyone owes me anything but I also will not be accommodating when the white male poor me-ing and pity partying starts.
Censored,
Many thanks for this article. I just read it outside and had to come in and say for now. I am deeply moved by this article. Although, at the same time I have many questions of where and who were the local volunteers and/or organizations. I will have more later. I really have to absorb it all for now.
I read that article early this morning, Censored, and I am very glad you posted on it. There are many people in the community just trying to make things better,and it’s encouraging when many of those people are high-school aged and younger. You just don’t hear enough about those folks.
Emma,
Last year while at a “Community Clean Up Day” in Irongate. I met two young ladies going into the 5th grade. They arrived early that morning ask what could they do. They were ready to work. While waiting for all the organizers to get there. These girls told me that each day after school. Once their homework was done and got a snack that they’d go pick up trash. The would go back to their school(WestGate Elem) and pick up all the trash that was all over the playground that wouldn’t fit into the already stuffed cans. They said they did this everyday. Only to go to school the next morning and see the school yard back to it’s littered state. I found this to be very encouraging. Why don’t more adults have this type of attitude and instill in there children?
I agree there are many doing good work in our communities. However, why is the good always over looked and the negative accentuated? I was told to accentuate the positive not the negative. Of course I’ve been here longer than most that want to point out the negative.
corr: Why don’t more adults have this type of attitude and instill in THEIR children?
Unfortunately, you’re right that a lot of adults are the ones who need teaching. For example, look how in recent months workers in DC pulblic schools have been caught stealing from student activity funds. The kids in many of those schools have it bad enough–crumbling physical plant, lack of extracurricular activities–and then there’s John Philip Sousa middle school in DC, which reportedly has no band program!!! How can adults allow this to happen?
Yoda in ’08.
Emma,
No middle school band in DC at Sousa Middle? Yikes, DC has had some award winning bands in their day. Cordoza High comes to mind. Extracurricular activities are key to kids thriving. imho.
Did you know that Fairfax does NOT have middle school team sports. Geesh! I thought they were so “big and bad”. Ha! PWC and the two cities have team sports for middle schoolers.
Plain and simply we ALL must take part in our community anyway we can.
There’s a new thread now on the Post article.
Chris, thanks for the reply. I’d missed it until I saw your second note checking in.
Looking back at your experience, it seems to me the two ways of dealing with neighborhood issues come down to who or what you’re against.
If you are against a behavior, then you call neighborhood services.
If you are against a certain group of people, then you call in the “Mad Scientist” from F.A.I.R.
Ultimately, both approaches can be successful. But they reflect upon our community in very different ways.
My mother always used to tell me, So-and-so is not a bad person; he just did a bad thing.
WHWN,
I’ve called Neighborhood Services for years. I’ve never called F.A.I.R.. Now, does that tell you anything? 😉 I am ALL for things that reflect in a positive light on my native PWC.
Your mother is so right! Unfortunately, there are those that are too quick to pass judgment. I guess they’ve lived “perfect lives”. Yeah, right! Just my two cents.
And then it gets even more complicated when you associate a bad behavior (such as overcrowded housing or playing loud music) with a specific ethnic or racial group of people. In this case, they were not only a specific racial group, but there was a prevailing assumption that the were also of a specific immigration status. Namely, it was assumed they were out of status.
I have, since the outset of this horrific controversy, struggled to understand how it is that Gospel Greg knew that his neighbors who, for instance, were playing loud music, were out of status. The music, granted, was Latin. The neighbors, granted, were Hispanic. But, as it turns out, they were Puerto Rican, which means their status was as good as Gospel Greg’s! Wooops.
So now we take a look at the house down the street. The music is Latin. Check. The people appear to be Hispanic. Check. How does Gospel Greg know for certain that they are also out of status? How does he avoid another embarrassing mistaken assumption? How does he know he should call the Mad Scientist from F.A.I.R. and not Neighborhood Services?
My assessment is that, indeed, he was not interested in dealing with overcrowded housing or with loud salsa music, so much as he was interested in something else. I don’t know his heart enough to call him a racist. I do know he is a devoted partisan. So if it is not quite fair to say he chose the Mad Scientist and his scary Immigration Resolution in order to drive the Hispanic community out of his neighborhood; it might indeed be fair to suppose that he called in Mike Hethmon from F.A.I.R. because he saw a political opportunity in making immigration an issue for last year’s election. Apparently he convinced John Stirrup and Corey Stewart of the same.
The “positive light,” meanwhile, that you had hoped to shine on our community, Chris, has been darkened by something that looks cynically partisan at best, and shamelessly racist at worst. If only Gospel Greg had followed your example instead of … well, I won’t say the reverse, but you get what I’m saying.
WHWN,
Michael tries too hard, I think, at least that is my opinion. He is so much easier to relate to when his posts are brief and not simply demonizing minority groups for sticking up for their rights.