Wednesday, I had a great opportunity to go for a “ride along” with a police officer in the Woodbridge area. Expecting to see horrific neighborhoods, having been described by Greg and other posters, I WAS shocked. Shocked, because, for the most part, the only lawns I did not see maintained were the ones with the foreclosure signs on them. Sure, the homes were older, several had garages that were turned into separate entrances, but they are all in good shape for the most part. We visited shopping centers, once vibrant, now deserted.
The police officer pointed out areas with high gang activity, and pointed to some taggings. Still, having grown up in Fairfax, having lived from North Arlington to Centreville, having seen first hand the poorer apartments and houses in the Baileys Crossroads area, even these parts of Woodbridge, overall, looked well maintained. I am not suggesting that the houses all perfect, there were a few that stood out, but this was not a “third world country”, not by any stretch of the imagination. I asked the police officer “is this as bad as you could show me ?”, and he replied that it was.
Stopping briefly, we had some conversations with a few day laborers. They were cordial and friendly, sharing their thoughts, describing their desire to work during these tough times. Some had families here, some had families in their country of origin. Although, a few admitted to be undocumented, several said they had visa’s to be here legally.
Driving home, I recalled the conversations I had with this very kind, considerate, and thoughtful(as in full of thought), police officer. He can see the totality of immigration impact in Prince William County, we were able to debate our ideas and I certainly came away with a new appreciation of his job and the struggles of these neighborhoods, struggling to absorb such a large influx of new and different faces.
To me, the glaring elephant in the room, has been the lack of county leadership, dealing pro-actively with the changing face of Prince William County to a more urban environment. Instead, we have community in fear of the police, and that fear is counter productive to the safety of everyone in Prince William County, including me, you, and the immigrants.
I’m glad you had a fairly good experience, but you have to realize that things are improving in PWC simply because the undesirables are moving out. Many of the foreclosed homes are the result. As far as speaking to the day laborers, first you were with a police officer, and so I’m sure they were on their best behavior, and secondly try that as a lone woman some day. I think you’ll come away with a slightly different impression. If you had taken that trip last year I think you would have come away with many more negative examples, because I took a trip around by myself and was convinced that something had to be done otherwise this country would soon lose it’s high standard of living along with it’s identity.
Elena,
Thanks for give us a “report” on your ride along. I am not real familiar with the other end of the county. I do know that I see Marumsco Plaza with many vacant store fronts, and this includes one of the oldest Giant’s in the area. When Giant closed that was very telling to me that many had left the Marumsco area. When’s the last time you heard of a Giant closing for lack of business?
With regards to the tall grass. The grass has been mowed at many of these houses because PCE has taken action to get the lawns mowed. I can assure you had you rode through a couple of months ago you would’ve seen the tall grass. In my neighborhood the contractors that made the initial mows have been back like clock work weekly to maintain these lawns. I think this is why you didn’t see the tall grass at the vacant houses. I am not disputing what you saw, I’m just offering a suggestion of why you didn’t see the tall grass you thought you’d see.
You bring up an interesting point regarding poorer apartments and houses in FX and Arlington counties. Arlington has been the “melting pot” of NOVA for decades. West Gate Apartments/Townhouses are prime example of what some may consider “poorer” apartments. They really have the complex looking good and very clean. I think it looks the best I’ve ever seen it at the current time.
The bottom line is takes residents becoming involved for good of all. This will make our community a better place for all of us to live.
you took one trip, I think that’s great. However empty shopping malls will be filled and as SA has eloquently mentioned, with another class of people. Seeing the sights you saw shows that change is in motion. I hope the day laborers cannot find work, they will move on. If they have families that are illegal, then hopefully they’ll leave too. My dream is that these folks will return to their countries of origin and not be able to return due to strict border controls.
This:
“Stopping briefly, we had some conversations with a few day laborers. They were cordial and friendly, sharing their thoughts, describing their desire to work during these tough times. Some had families here, some had families in their country of origin. Although, a few admitted to be undocumented, several said they had visa’s to be here legally. ”
contradicts this:
“Instead, we have community in fear of the police, and that fear is counter productive to the safety of everyone in Prince William County, including me, you, and the immigrants.”
I expect that the police officer has worked with these day laborers before and they know him. Officer X has worked hard to establish this relationship. It didn’t just happen.
There is fear in the county, especially with the women and children. It has eased up some since the Resolution was altered to only address status of those arrested.
Many of you nay-sayers really don’t deal with the immigrant community, do you? It is very obvious because you speak Red Circle speak rather than from personal experience of talking with immigrants.
The ride along should prove to you that the county has infact changed for the better, Just reminds me of a small area in Arlington that was infested with Crack heads, gangs and all kinds of criminal activity..Until the police came in and started enforcing the law the crack heads left as well as the gangs activites and many shops closed…fast forward a year later, the same place is alive with a whole new “guppy” generation and now this same area is pet friendly and family oriented..I can sit outside at my favorite restaurant enjoy a good meal and see a fantastic view of the potomac.
Sometimes we got to Crawl before we can walk!
Moon-howler- Alot of people base their opinions on personal experience and I can honestly say I have had several negative experiences. Here is 1 example of many:
I had just bought a brand new truck and enroute to going home, I stopped at a store ( mini-mart) and ran in to get some last minute items, I came out of the store and there was a hispanic man pissing on my tire! He also had planted a beer bottle under another tire and when I started freaking out on the guy, a van load of hispanic males were laughing and clapping like it was funny and I was standing there in tears..
Were they illegal you ask? I have no idea..Was it a prominant hispanic community? yes it was…and I never went back. Did a van load of apples ruin it for the whole bunch?? You bet it did!
The strip malls around route 1 have had empty shops for years. They did not just close overnight.
Question, do you feel sorry for the LEGAL American home improvement business owners who are going out of business because they can not compete with the “under the table” dealings other unscrupulous business owners practice? I know several business owners who are having problems or have actually gone out of business because they cannot compete with those who hire illegal day labors.
I could also tell you anything you want to hear. Does that make it true? While some of the day labors may have documents that allow them to work here, the majority do not. If they were truly legitimate they would not be hanging on the corner of the 7-11’s in the area. They would be using labor finders and other temp resources. They don’t because they are paid under the table. Did you ask them to show you a pay stub? Bet they get paid in cash.
Can you honestly say that area around route 1 near Marmumsco Plaza looks good? That whole area looks like crap.
IllegalisILLEGAL, 3. July 2008, 8:43 ..
AMEN!
I like your summary, Elena. The officers who are out there everyday have a much better grasp of the entire situation. And I see no contradictions between the men who know the police officers feeling comfortable enough to talk to them and the fear that some in the Hispanic community have of the police. Life is not comprised of these simplistic either/or situations.
I lived in Lake Ridge more than twenty-five years ago and the Marumsco area was “iffy” even then. Like much of Rt. 1, it has outdated and vacant buildings, a poorer population in general, a hodge-podge of zoning. To think that it will undergo revitalization anytime soon is just wishful thinking. Fairfax County has spent some bucks trying to revitalize their section of Rt. 1 with limited success. PWC is too cheap to do even that much. It’ll be interesting to see if the County/City can even fill all the new stores being built on Liberia Avenue given the current economic situation in the county/country.
Elena, did the day laborers admit to being undocumented in the presence of the police officer? That is surprising, and I can see why that has the Brainwashed Gospel Greg Clones eating their bunched up panties. Whether this is true or not, here are some facts might clarify:
Not all the “undesirables” (a.k.a. Hispanics) in Prince William County are day laborers, in fact they are easily a minority among our immigrant community. Thus, it can be true that the immigrant community in general is less trusting in our county government (we all are so can you blame them?) and in our police force.
If there is any subgroup of immigrants who know the police well, its day laborers. Remember, the day laborers CALL THE POLICE when they are threatened by lunatics in military costumes (a.k.a. Gospel Greg). They probably encounter police officers several times a week, and they know better than anyone that BEFORE the “crackdown,” during the “crackdown” (March and April), and since the repeal of Probable Cause (April 30) police officers do not, have not, and will never have the authority to arrest someone just because they admit to being undocumented. That’s why the Probable Cause resolution and the Duecaster/F.A.I.R. version of the resolution were both legally dubious. Now that the law has been changed and immigration checks are mandated post arrest, the Board’s policy conforms to the “rule of law” (!) by reinforcing the fact that immigration checks cannot be done on a racial profiling basis. Imagine that.
“There is fear in the county, especially with the women and children.”
Proof?
“Many of you nay-sayers really don’t deal with the immigrant community, do you? ”
While I don’t consider myself a nay-sayer but rather a “pointer-outer” of hypocracy and able see through the BS, I do “deal” with the immigrant community on a daily basis as I’ve made that clear countless times before. I’ve had hispanic neighbors for 10+ years including 2 houses on either side of me with traditional hispanic families and 2 flop houses in front of me with populations of unrelated males and females that come and go.
I’ve neither heard nor have witnessed the fear that’s being parroted on these boards.
WHWN- Hmmm Seems you fat broads are contridicting yourselves. If what you are saying is true
” If there is any subgroup of immigrants who know the police well, its day laborers. Remember, the day laborers CALL THE POLICE when they are threatened”
Then WHY do they have ANY fear of the police at all?????
Elvis:
Haha, keep dreaming Elvis. Those of us who are legal are working to make sure you wake up in a nightmare…
Mackie-
Really?? What EXACTLY have YOU done??? Sent some emails, made a few calls????
We have already experienced the “nightmare” and those of us who are citizens are right beside you making sure America gets her Dream back!
Just Cause,
Why are being so disrespectful to the women here? Would you insult me if we were face to face “just cause”?
From the police officer to me, the immigrants ARE afraid, that simple. Often they do start walking away when they see him drive by. My presence probably was what made them less nervous. When I have more time, I can recount some of the stories he told me.
“” If there is any subgroup of immigrants who know the police well, its day laborers. Remember, the day laborers CALL THE POLICE when they are threatened””
“Then WHY do they have ANY fear of the police at all?????”
It’s a blatant contridication that is conveniently overlooked. This whole blog is a blatant contradiction parading as some kind of meeting place for those looking for solutions.
“From the police officer to me, the immigrants ARE afraid, that simple. Often they do start walking away when they see him drive by.”
Muddy the waters a little more please. Some individuals are and SHOULD be affraid of the police.
Just Cause, maybe more women and children are fearful of the police and not the day laborers. BTW, as an anecdote, a college-educated legally-here Hispanic female whose sister works with a family member of mine has refused to move here because of PWC’s reputation. And she doesn’t want to be hounded by the police. This is the perception she’s gotten of the county.
JC, quit assuming we’re all women or that we’re all fat. Just because Robert Duecaster plopped those words into you clones’ peabrains and talking points doesn’t make it so. And as if Duecaster should make fun of anyone’s physical traits!
Mando, do you know any Hispanics other than your neighbors?
Censored bybvbl:
Yeah, whats up with Duecaster’s insults towards women. Does anyone know if he’s married? I wonder what his wife thinks of his insults.
“Mando, do you know any Hispanics other than your neighbors?”
Quite a few. Women and children included… There’s only one that I know that’s been adversly effected and it was due to the ICE raids rather then the resolution. He was fired from his job soon after the cement company got fried. He is illegally here.
“BTW, as an anecdote, a college-educated legally-here Hispanic female whose sister works with a family member of mine has refused to move here because of PWC’s reputation. And she doesn’t want to be hounded by the police. This is the perception she’s gotten of the county.”
This blog is just as guilty if not MORESO then the other for perpetuating that reputation.
Most of us average joes just want something done with the real problem that is illegal immagration. Neither extremes represent us.
Just Cause,
It is easy to make sweeping generalizations about entire groups based on the behavior of a some. That’s where stereotyping comes from. Have you had any positive experiences with Hispanics?
Would your feelings be different if the group pissing on your truck tires were blacks? Indians? Frat boys?
I just think common sense tells me, as a woman, not to stop at stores where there are large groups of men standing around out front. It just isn’t a good idea. In a perfect world, all people would have manners.
Mando, the woman I mentioned above had made the decision not to move here before this blog ever existed. I think the national attention through the WaPo and other sources influenced her decision…as well as talking to her sister.
Mackie, there’s a Robert Duecaster in Manassas who used to share ownership of a townhouse with a female according to PWC records…don’t know if it’s the same guy.
I would be afraid if some crazed AH came prancing out of his truck taking my picture. DUH! Sorry, no more hate bunnies. Sometimes you just have to call it like you see it. AH fits.
“Mando, the woman I mentioned above had made the decision not to move here before this blog ever existed. I think the national attention through the WaPo and other sources influenced her decision…as well as talking to her sister.”
My point being, misinformation is misinformation. Shout ethnic cleansing and genocide enough and some people are bound to buy it. This blog isn’t the originator of the BS, just another fly landing on it.
Mando, unless you or I live with the threat of deportation (either ours or a family member’s) we aren’t in a position to say what level of fear is valid. Even if a person is rounded up in a raid and released with the admonition to get his paperwork in order, the week or two without work (or perhaps the loss of his job) may be enough to cause him to go into foreclosure or lose his truck because he’s now short the payment. He has to weigh every trip to the store because he’s taking a chance…even though the rest of his family may be US citizens.
Moon-howler : If they were black or Indian or frat boys they would not be sauntering around with no real identity available to police, and the offense would be tracked and they would be held accountable. This law enforcement double-standard is part of what ENRAGES some people about the current illegal immigration fiasco/scam.
Crime does not pay – unless you speak Spanish.
How do you say “Crime Does Not Pay” in Spanish? I’m going to get some bumper stickers printed up with that on them.
I would have to agree with Mando, I think that if there is fear in the Hispanic community this site does a great job of fanning the flames and instilling that fear. When you compare PWCPD to Nazi storm troopers how could that not instill fear in someone? When you constantly call the resolution “ethnic cleansing” how does that not instill fear? This site is based on instilling fear with some of the over the top topics.
Elena, I’m glad that you had a good experience talking with the day labors. I have not. I moved to rt.1 about two years ago and when I first moved here I stopped by the 7-11 near the parkway with my wife. As we walked in most of the stared at her and started saying things about her in Spanish as we were waiting in line. My wife refused to tell me what they said (she can speak Spanish) because it would have started some problems. She ended up telling me when we got home that they were talking about her tits and her ass and what they wanted to do to her. I’m not a violent person but nobody disrespects my wife like that, nobody. It’s to the point now where I don’t even go there if she is with me and I do not let her go alone. You may have had 1 good experience but try it every day and without a cop with you.
I know a lot of Hispanics who don’t read this blog and still they don’t want to come to PWC. The El Salvador national soccer team stayed in that area recently and they were aware of the situation.
It doesn’t matter if you are here legally or illegally but if you are Hispanic, people don’t feel like going there. Sometimes worth of mouth is stronger than a blog.
Is that a not realistic fear? Read some of the comments about Hispanic=Illegal or Salvadoran=Gang member.
Again, that doesn’t mean that people making the comments are racists but for sure they are ignorant
Hello,
I think you had a terrible experience and I empathize with you. I will feel bad if I had to go through the same situation with my wife. Can you conclude that all Hispanic guys are the same? Do you think that it is a lack-of-education issue? The majority of people that you see waiting for a job in a 7-11 are not the most educated group. Do you think that the Hispanic economists working at the World Bank would do the same to your wife? I doubt it. My problem with all anecdotes is that we think one event we experienced can be generalized to all events. It is the same thing with the numbers that Stewart is using. I am pretty sure that he is not familiar with statistical significance or regression to the mean. You don’t have to be a statistician to understand how the numbers behave just an interest in getting educated about understanding social issues.
Moon-howler : If they were black or Indian or frat boys they would not be sauntering around with no real identity available to police, and the offense would be tracked and they would be held accountable.
This won’t be a true comparision because I’ve never peed on someone’s tires, but I walk several miles several times a week and I carry no ID. It’s locked in my car. When my husband is driving and we make a quick trip to a store, I carry no ID.
Crime does not pay – unless you speak Spanish.
Okay, all you hate bunnies out there, tell me how this isn’t xenophobic?
When you constantly call the resolution “ethnic cleansing” how does that not instill fear?
Helloooo, hello, but this statement shows that you read little here and prefer a broad brush or marching orders from elsewhere. “Ethnic cleansing” was mentioned for a few days. Put the big brush away. But I did call RB’s statement xenophobic, so tell me why it isn’t.
TH, I would have to agree with you on some of your points. There are some people that make the generalizations you talk about and that is unfortunate. However, how do you think most of the “word of mouth” starts these days? Blogs. Sure, I doubt most Hispanics read this blog but allot of people here have Hispanic friends and/or family. When you post messages or topics comparing PWCPD to Nazi storm troopers (for example) what do you think they say about the resolution with their Hispanic friends and/or family? Then those friends and/or family talk talk about the same things with their friend and family and the misinformation grows and grows from there.
Rick, You are trying to tell me that they are going to be tracked and held accountable for pissing on a tire? I don’t think so.
Hello,
I don’t think anyone on this blog has compared the PWCPD to stormtroopers. I would be most upset if that had happened.
Hi Censored, I don’t agree with RB’s statement about crime doesn’t pay unless you speak Spanish. Also, I don’t think I’m using a “big brush” here when I say that this site does it’s own share of instilling fear. The ethnic cleansing reference was just one example, there are many more.
TH, I’m not and have never said all Hispanic guys are the same. I’ve got plenty of Hispanic friends I hang with in Manassas every weekend and they certainly don’t act that way. I think you may be right about some of it being a “lack-of-eduction” issue. Most (not all) here illegally don’t have much of an eduction which is why they are here looking for work.
Moon-Howler, check it out and tell me what you think, is this not comparing PWCPD to Nazi storm troopers? http://www.antibvbl.net/index.php/2008/03/19/zeigen-sie-mir-ihre-papiere-seien-sie-ihre-papiere-im-auftrag/
Hello, ‘what if’ situation. We could do the same thing using 1984 as the model. The Resolution has undergone several significant changes since that was posted. Most people on this blog were very happy with then change from probable cause to post arrest inquiry about status.
I think we hyave a very professional police department. However, if their orders direct them to do something they can chose to obey or find another job. I am very pleased it did not come down to that.
Moon-howler, but was it comparing PWCPD to Nazi storm troopers? I think it obviously was.
There are low class people everywhere. Let’s not just select Latino men as culprits of ill-bred behavior. I have lived around this area for quite a while and I have seen boorish behavior from whites, blacks, asians and hispanics. I don’t go into areas that appear to have a bunch of low class men hanging out. (or women either for that matter)
And what if I am wrong? What if the men hanging out aren’t low-class? Well….I guess I will never be the wiser. When in doubt, chicken out.
Hello, a woman I’ve met handled the problem facing your wife in this way. When the guy made a comment about her (in Home Depot), she walked right up to him and said,”Would you say that to your mother?!” He was scared…first because she spoke Spanish and understood everything he had said and then because she had the nerve to come right up to him and confront him. It’s the same tactic a lot of women have used for decades as they’ve been hooted at from construction sites or work trucks.
Hello,
No, I think it was hypothesizing on what Prince William County police could become if intructed to locate illegal immigrants. I do not think either Alanna or Elena would say that PWC police were Nazi Storm Troopers.
One scenario presents a ‘what could happen’ perspective. The one you are suggesting has them calling our police force Nazis.
You might want to try asking them for further clarification.
Censored, that’s a good idea and Ill let my wife know so she may be able to use that tactic. However, I would rather just not have my wife in a situation like that. It just sucks that I have to avoid places and people like that in my own community. Could that have happened if there were no day labors hanging out every day at 7-11’s and Home Depot’s, I suppose so. But when you have sometimes 20 or 30 or more hanging out in one place like that the chances of it happening are greatly increased. When the resolution first passed I noticed that the numbers reduced to about 1/4 of what they were before (it’s starting to go back up again though). For me, in my community, I think that was a great thing. Should I have to avoid going to 7-11 and Home Depot with my wife fearing that it will happen again (which it has)?
Moon-howler, I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on this one. 🙂
Hello, I go to Home Depot frequently with and without my husband and have never had a problem. That’s one thing about getting older that is a plus. I quit going to 7-11 daily many years ago because I read my news online now. However, in the past I found most construction workers, both white, black, and Hispanic, to be more polite in general than other men in holding open the door. Some of what you’re experiencing is a culture/class clash which will disappear the longer someone is working in the mainstream culture.
Sure many of those guys are courteous … but many aren’t.
Some actually sneak into houses and rape underage girls. How can ANYONE justify the risk?
This isn’t just a culture clash. This is about standards of living. When you look around your neighborhood and nearly half the houses are now full of anonymous men, untracked by law enforcement (no knowledge of past offenses) crammed in like sardines, and they’re walking around at all hours and parents are afraid to let their kids play outside, maybe you’ll start to understand.
“I go to Home Depot frequently”
Lowes is sooo much nicer and they don’t treat their employees or customers like cattle.
I had an experience too where my date spoke Spanish and understood the guys calling her vile names. Unpleasant. But make no mistake by anyone’s account who speaks the language these guys talk MUCHO SMACK frequently. Spanish is becoming a code language for the underclass.
Just got out of a meeting and now trying to catch up:
Elena- Not trying to be disrespectful…BUT…I am always attacked first on this website and today it was from WHWN and I felt the need to lash back..Seems anyone who disagrees is always stereotyped a “Greg Clone” ..
Moonhowler said: “I don’t go into areas that appear to have a bunch of low class men hanging out. (or women either for that matter)”
LMAOOOOO talk about stereotyping….and for the record, I am multi cultural and I find Hispanic men to be the most inconsiderate and dis-respectful towards women than by far any other race…Guess because hispanic Males travel in packs,they have no self control but I too have had nasty comments made to me by hispanic men and with my 15 year old daughter right beside me, SHE told me what they were saying….
So in conclusion Moonhowler- I too prefer to keep my distance from low class men, I stay away from 7-11 from 6:00AM till 2:00PM and any other place that “draws” them..