Wednesday, I had a great opportunity to go for a “ride along” with a police officer in the Woodbridge area. Expecting to see horrific neighborhoods, having been described by Greg and other posters, I WAS shocked. Shocked, because, for the most part, the only lawns I did not see maintained were the ones with the foreclosure signs on them. Sure, the homes were older, several had garages that were turned into separate entrances, but they are all in good shape for the most part. We visited shopping centers, once vibrant, now deserted.
The police officer pointed out areas with high gang activity, and pointed to some taggings. Still, having grown up in Fairfax, having lived from North Arlington to Centreville, having seen first hand the poorer apartments and houses in the Baileys Crossroads area, even these parts of Woodbridge, overall, looked well maintained. I am not suggesting that the houses all perfect, there were a few that stood out, but this was not a “third world country”, not by any stretch of the imagination. I asked the police officer “is this as bad as you could show me ?”, and he replied that it was.
Stopping briefly, we had some conversations with a few day laborers. They were cordial and friendly, sharing their thoughts, describing their desire to work during these tough times. Some had families here, some had families in their country of origin. Although, a few admitted to be undocumented, several said they had visa’s to be here legally.
Driving home, I recalled the conversations I had with this very kind, considerate, and thoughtful(as in full of thought), police officer. He can see the totality of immigration impact in Prince William County, we were able to debate our ideas and I certainly came away with a new appreciation of his job and the struggles of these neighborhoods, struggling to absorb such a large influx of new and different faces.
To me, the glaring elephant in the room, has been the lack of county leadership, dealing pro-actively with the changing face of Prince William County to a more urban environment. Instead, we have community in fear of the police, and that fear is counter productive to the safety of everyone in Prince William County, including me, you, and the immigrants.
Hi Rick, I wouldn’t say that Spanish is becoming a code language for the underclass but I would agree that some Spanish speaking people assume “American” looking people can’t speak or understand Spanish (mostly day labors from what I have noticed). I don’t think they realize that Spanish is one of the only choices of a foreign language in high-school and most high-school students take Spanish.
Moonhowler said: “Rick, You are trying to tell me that they are going to be tracked and held accountable for pissing on a tire? I don’t think so.”
Ohhhhhh I beg to differ, Its against the law to expose your Genitals in public and had I not been so upset and had my phone handy, I would of called the police right then and there…I still kick myself for not atleast getting the tag number……
Just Cause,
You had only to read the entirety of my post, and perhaps think on it, (rather than picking thru it for something to trumpet and hurriedly spewing forth a confused almost-tautology) and you would have avoided embarrassing yourself once again. But that is not your way apparently.
Your problem is this confused idea that all “undesirables” in this county (undocumented immigrants and those who look to you like they might be) think exactly like the day laborers, who, apparently, are familiar enough with our honorable Police force not to be afraid of them. Neither I nor Elena has ever said our police officers SHOULD be feared by the immigrant community. In fact, we lament the fact that they are.
As the Anti-immigrant Hysteria crowd has proven time and time again, it is not reality that leads to fear, it is perception.
WhyHereWhyNow said:
“Spanish is becoming a code language for the underclass”
Again, Rick, the problem I have with your comments is that you generalize a lot. There fact that the spanish-speking people you see and have interactions with seem to belong to an underclass, it doesn’t mean that Spanish is becoming their code language. Please man, travel! Would you go to Spain and tell their people that? There are scholars in this country who use Spanish everyday. In fact, a lot of the research on Hispanic Literature is conducted in this country.
Elena, there is a contradiction with your Hispanics are afraid of the police discussions and your statement “Remember, the day laborers CALL THE POLICE when they are threatened”. If they were afraid of the police why would they call them?
Just Cause, if the guy who peed on your tire just walked away before the police got there, then what? The cops aren’t going to arrest the other men for laughing and it’ll be your word against he-who-pees’ word. Do you think the police are going to run a DNA check on the fluids?! There are uncouth people out there. I saw a guy take a leak on a truck near Rice’s one time. He was drunk. I’m afraid it’s just one of those things that happen. Ask yourself if this is really one of those things you want to get all wound up about. In the grand scheme of things, it’s crass but piddly.
Hello, your question to Elena has already been addressed. The horse is dead.
WHWN- Maybe you need to read your words and then THINK before you post:
” it can be true that the immigrant community in general is less trusting in our county government (we all are so can you blame them?) and in our police force”
and then you say:
“If there is any subgroup of immigrants who know the police well, its day laborers. Remember, the day laborers CALL THE POLICE “
Censored bybvbl, 3. July 2008, 13:52: your not the advocator nor are you the blog police and since when did Elena make you her talking head?????
whyherewhynow said:
“But that is not your way apparently.”
Not my way either apparently. Glancing through your post, I see:
“Brainwashed Gospel Greg Clones”
“lunatics in military costumes (a.k.a. Gospel Greg)”
“Duecaster/F.A.I.R. version of the resolution”
and figure it’s another one of your robo responses and ignore it.
Rick,
Are you feeling okay? The richest man in the world is from Mexico and speaks Spanish. Spanish is the second most spoken language in the world. How do you figure it’s the language of the underclass?
Sure there are plenty of fine people who speak Spanish. Still, it’s becoming a language of an American underclass.
But Mando, you respond so well to catch phrases when they are inane, anti-immigrant, and ill-conceived. I’m just having a little fun. If you don’t mind seeing leaders with a grip on reality are called “Illegal Alien Apologists,” surely you can suffer a the words “Duecaster/F.A.I.R. version of the resolution” which belong together and are securely fastened to history by Help Save Manassas and their own publications.
“Brainwashed Gospel Greg Clones” is a little bit derisive, I’ll admit. But would anyone like to argue that is isn’t accurate?
Censored bybvbl- So your excusing this behavior..is it because he was HISPANIC??
The bottom line is, I was at the store, I came out..and there was a man with his C*** in his hand..DRUNK…Pissing on my tire and a group of other drunk hispanics in the van beside me ( not there when I pulled in) and a beer bottle placed under my tire, they were laughing and joking and thinking it must be funny when in reality it scared the living H*** out of me!!
But I guess its a cultural thing in your world but in my world that is unacceptable behavior and anyone who is caught exposing their genitals in public is in fact ARRESTED for indecent exposure….just another case of disrespect for the law…thats my point!
ooooops and let me add: drunk in public….DUI…distruction of property…But to you this is piddly…
so Typical
WHWN, I would argue that “Brainwashed Gospel Greg Clones” isn’t accurate… For some reason any one who supports the resolution gets called a “Brainwashed Gospel Greg Clone” and most have never met, seen or even know the guy.
Just Cause, but the guy I saw wasn’t Hispanic. I’ve seen Hispanic men take a leak in public though…just as other men have done. You must be more easily scared than I am. The police can’t police everything much as you’d like for them to do so. Hire more of them if you want better enforcement. But believe me, they aren’t going to know when every drunk decides to pee in public. It’ll be your word against someone else’s so you have to decide how important that is to pursue.
And I’m definitely not Advocator. I’d just prefer that you guys who gather en masse and ask the same questions read first.
Just Cause, I gave you two chances. You’ve confused yourself so thoroughly, you’ve made it unlikely that anyone will understand what you’re trying to say. So, first, I’ll explain what you’re trying to say so that others can understand, then I’ll dispatch with it handily.
Just Cause is trying to find a contradiction among regular contributors to this blog. This in itself is not a crime, but let’s go with him/her/it for a while. The question at hand is whether or not the immigrant community in general is less likely to report crimes, or cooperate with police investigations. Many are afraid, as posts here have argued. Some are not, as other posts here have pointed out.
Big deal.
No one, except perhaps a few of the extremist anti-immigrant crazies, wants to see a situation where the Police appear to be instructed by the BOCS to use racial profiling as a standard for detention and/or arrest. This would be bad, I hope we can all agree.
This was the perception, I think one can argue, after October 16th of last year, and it has persisted thanks in great part to the chest-beating of our Chairman Corey Stewart and his hatchet man Greg Letiecq. They brag about this fear. As Robert Duecaster said at Citizens’ Time, “It’s overdue.”
What I’m trying to point out, as a person who has studied in the law enforcement field, is that this perception is a bad thing. It makes it harder to solve crimes. We don’t want this. No one should.
Perhaps it is true that some immigrants, and even some undocumented immigrants, are not as afraid of the police in Prince William County as others.
Again, big deal.
The point is, we don’t want this. That is why we are hoping that this blog will help educate people, including immigrants, that the October 16th Resolution has been changed, that the “Probable Cause” standard has been repealed, and there should not even be the perception that our officers are expected to racially profile residents and citizens as a directive of our Board of County Supervisors.
Of course, even if this were the directive, it would not have made it to the General Order, because Chief Deane is too smart for that. He listens to the County Attorney, unlike our Chairman and his errand boy on the Board.
It has never been true, not for a single day, that our officers were instructed to use racial profiling. But the perception is bad for our community. The perception is bad for our reputation and our economy. And it makes us less safe.
That simply, I have taken Just Cause’s objection and provided some insight and information. If only our elected officials were wiling to respond with such clarity and candor in response to anti-immigrant inanity.
And while we waste precious time persecuting/protecting hardworking, working class immigrants for the sake of Republican/Democratic Party votes…our national security continues to erode…the danger continues to grow…and the resource/religious war that approaches on the horizon draws closer and closer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4QmUjIClmg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SO-SOt0iW8
“distruction of property”
How? Don’t tell me that you saw the bottle but ran over it anyway or that the pee ruined your tires.
Thanks for recounting my previous post Censored regarding fear in the community. In fact, it it more the youth and women that tend to be more fearful of the police and it isn’t because of the posters here, it is because of people like Greg and Corey and their rhetoric. The police are working very hard on countering that perception. In fact, one of the day laborers, shared that he knows as long as he is not arrested, he does not fear the police.
P.S. if I had to start generalizing about rude behavior, most men in ALL races and ethnicities would be deported from my life experiences 😉 (sorry to the several nice guys I may have offended)
Just Cause,
I gave you the benefit of the doubt when you started here but you are obviously a Greg MINION, willing to say or do anything. Not too ethical your bunch, your true colors are shining through.
WHWN- Thank you for your insight and however ignorant you think I am, I soooo did NOT get what you have just posted from your earlier blog post…
Censored bybvbl, 3. July 2008, 14:15
your not getting my point…and you may not scare easily but you are dellusional if you think this “act” is ” no big deal” and I understand Men pissing in public, but most MEN go around a corner and put their backs to ya, They dont stand there in open areas with their dicks in their hand pissing on other peoples property….again…must be a cultural thing..I work hard for what I have and I have EARNED everything I got and if you think its OK for some one to piss on your property….well obviously you have had everything HANDED to you and probably including your education..but Im sure your gonna say..you worked 10 jobs to pay for your degree….blah…. blah…blah
Bring it on:
Benefit of what doubt???
because I disagree with you, I am now a Greg Minion?? ( What is a Greg Minion anyway)…my true colors shining through???
What exactly do you mean by that??
OMG!!!!!!!!!!!
I made the comment that most people base their opinions on life’s experiences..I also stated that the “pissing” incident was just a small 1 of the many incidents that I am willing to share in open forum….I am not ready to discuss in open forum about WHY I have the opinion I do…I just cant…
With that said…..C
For crying out loud Bring it On, “Greg MINION”, grow up.
Just Cause, no not ten jobs, just two.
I knew it wouldn’t be long before someone was called a Greg something… again.
Censored: Congratulations, Guess you just blew my theory that all hispanics’s education is state funded.
but 2 jobs only?? Must of been a Community College…
Lisa,
Ever here of the saying, people that live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones?
PRINCE WILLIAM COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT MANUAL OF GENERAL ORDERS
C. An officer may inquire into immigration status prior to the establishment of probable cause
if he has reasonable articulable suspicion as part of initial identification inquiry to acquire an
understanding of the facts which may lead to the discovery of additional facts that would
lawfully support an extension of the initial detention for further investigation into
immigration matters. However, if there is probable cause to believe a person is in violation
of federal immigration law and when such inquiry will not unlawfully expand the duration
of the detention, it is the policy of this Department that officers shall investigate the
citizenship or immigration status of a person who is lawfully detained for a violation of a
state law or county ordinance by following the procedures set out in this General Order. As
previously stated, this General Order is not intended to limit the Police Department’s
authority under the Fourth Amendment of the United States Constitution.
Looks like the police can ask legal status BEFORE an arrest. They are just not mandated to.
Here’s the link
http://www.pwcgov.org/default.aspx?topic=040074003460004638
Elena – was he cute?
Here’s a link to the press release
http://www.pwcgov.org/docLibrary/PDF/008420.pdf
Alanna- Was the “glass house” theory directed to me??
I paid for my education for 2 years, then I got an entry level job in the field I was pursuing, my Employer picked up the tab for the remaining 2 years.
But because my Mother worked at IBM..I was immediately denied any funding…They took her income into consideration and she made less than 27K a year so it was all on me…Yep I went to a Community college too..
and speaking of “throwing stones” seems to be ALOT of that going on here…..
I’m out..Going to the beach..Hope everyone has a safe and happy 4th..
Talk to you all later!
Just Cause, use your thinking cap. I went to college when it was more affordable. It was a state school and I have a four year degree. I have taken art classes at local community colleges after I graduated.
What if I just call you all members of the Red Circle-Jerks instead of Greg Something or other. How about that?
Great idea junkyard dog!! Just call anyone you don’t agree with a jerk instead of debating, shows what great character you have. Get a life man.
Is anyone going to Dewey Beach for the 4th?
Juturna,
Was who cute?
Illegalisillegal,
this provision has always been part of law enforcement capabilities, it was just never REQUIRED until PWC put in the second version of the resolution, and the reason why so many people worked to undue the mandate,and return it to the officers discretion only.
Macke,
We’ll just be hanging around town, enjoying family time here. I hope everyone who leaves town has a good time and that travel is safe for all.
Elena, You are so wrong. Chief Deane had a general order in place since 2005 that said his police officers could not ask immigraton status. Ask any beat cop that has been around for awhile.
Elena – the officer!!!! Like CHiPS or something. Or am I showing my age?
illegal is illegal – before 287(g) no one was allowed to ask. That was the point of the federal delegation (287g) of immigration law to locals. Don’t think you can pin that one on Deane.
Junkyard Dog
Are you randomly calling folks names again?!! Usually you have a method to your ‘madness’.
Juturna,
Confession time. I was completely in love with Eric Estrada. I wonder, why they don’t show that in reruns?
hello, 3. July 2008, 11:35 said…
“…when I first moved here I stopped by the 7-11 near the parkway with my wife. As we walked in most of the stared at her and started saying things about her in Spanish as we were waiting in line. My wife refused to tell me what they said (she can speak Spanish) because it would have started some problems. She ended up telling me when we got home that they were talking about her tits and her ass and what they wanted to do to her.”
Hello, I flat out don’t believe this happened. You are making up a scenario to perpetuate a stereotype. Day laborers are men with families just like you. A group of men would not make these comments if you were with your wife, and highly unlikely even if you weren’t.
The bogeyman is everywhere…
So tell me, just in case…what words were they using? Ask your wife to write it here in Spanish. Maribel and I will verify the meaning. Haven’t seen Maribel here lately, though.