According to the Journal Messenger the hearing over the Libery Wall has been postponed until September 5th.
84 Thoughts to “Liberty Wall Hearing Postponed”
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Nice,
they give that jerk yet another stay from tearing down his wall. They need to ensure that Fernandez does a little jail time for his ignorance. He apparently has no respect for the laws of this nation and deserves anything they throw at him for that ugly monstrosity of a sign. His ignorant point has been made, if he’s trying to show the world how stupid he is he can now tear down the sign, otherwise the city will do it for him.
talking about a person who is un-american!!!!
Check out this great article by Nick Miroff about the Liberty Wall saga. This reporter always nails his stories.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/01/AR2008070102461.html
Elvis, and you’re a lawyer? Are you sure you’re not Gospel Greg? Ever hear of due process?
Who knows, this one might just end up going to the Supreme Court. Stay tuned.
2 great Civil War battles, the Bobbits, what next?
You keep forgetting diving donkeys at the fair.
Do you know why it has been postponed? I didn’t understand that.
WOW! Just read the Post article!
“The new sign, Fernandez said, would feature painted murals and captions depicting the history of American racial injustice.”
This is a great idea! What better way to depict history than through real art? Art might depict things we don’t always want to see, but it’s a medium more effective and relative to Old Town.
I hope Mr. Fernandez includes in his mural the struggles of African Americans, Asians, Italian, Middle Easterners and Irish who have had similar experiences throughout history. We are one!
If Mr. Fernandez wants to expand his wall he will have to apply for a special use permit to do so. He is in an area that is zoned as residential. It will be interesting to see if he applies for his permit or again, disregards the City government by continuing to ignore them.
Juturna, you and those diving donkeys.
That sign is just dawg ugly and has an ugly message. I don’t care who is saying it, hate speech is hate speech. It is time for the sign to come down. We all need to move on.
Ruff Woof.
Perhaps Mr. Fernandez can try out his wall concept south of the U.S. border, where they are so kind to immigrants who enter over their southeastern border. He could call it a history of Mexican racial injustice. Wonder how long before his body would be discovered?
kgotthardt, 3. July 2008, 20:29
This is a great idea! What better way to depict history than through real art? Art might depict things we don’t always want to see, but it’s a medium more effective and relative to Old Town.
I hope Mr. Fernandez includes in his mural the struggles of African Americans, Asians, Italian, Middle Easterners and Irish who have had similar experiences throughout history. We are one!
How are we “one” when the intent is separation?
“We are one” flies in the face of the argument among several here who feel it is racist to expect immigrants to assimilate, that it is a “salad bowl” and not a “melting pot.” So many contradictions.
I don’t think the intent IS separation. I think it’s a statement. We all make statements. Immigrants and minorities who have suffered in this country and county have gone through similar experiences, and the Liberty Wall pretty much has said that.
The Liberty Wall, for better or for worse, shows that history is repeating itself here and it’s not what we should be doing. The sign might be ugly right now, but it can become something even larger, a tourist attraction people will come HERE to see because it shows the human struggle, the strength we all can have, and the power of free speech.
Mr. F. has the chance to move from making an angry statement within the county to making a global statement worthy of national and international attention. Art is a powerful tool. I’d love to see him do it!
Emma, I mean though we are of different cultures, we are one human race. We struggle. We can overcome.
Bull. Mr. Fernandez doesn’t even live in the City of Manassas. He is more than welcome to bring his structure elsewhere–perhaps in your neighborhood, kg? It is a blatant zoning violation, and he is being given preferential treatment because of his race. It’s not just a sign, it’s the remaining wall of a home that suspiciously burned down. I can’t wait to see his insolent butt thrown in jail.
When the sign had a more nicely worded message and nicer lettering, no one complained. It was mostly Gandhi and Martin Luther King quotes as I recall. If indeed he ends up getting the permit to do a monument to struggles for racial equality, I can’t see how the community would object. The Civil War is an important part of our history in PWC. But history does not stop writing itself. Kgotthardt, that would be great if the mural included all peoples’ struggles, including all those you mentioned and also Caucasian Americans who stood up for civil rights. I think this would be a much needed compliment to all the roads and schools we have named after Confederate generals and the like.
WHWH, hope he finds a nice spot in your neighborhood. I’m sure it would fit right in.
I would WELCOME it in my neighborhood! And when the tourists show up, I will make a MINT selling Crystal Light by the cup.
Ok, great! Perhaps you could post the location of your neighborhood. I would be more than happy to lobby the City Council on your behalf when Mr. Fernandez applies for his zoning permit.
And orange Crystal Light is my personal favorite.
Kgotthardt said “I would WELCOME it in my neighborhood! And when the tourists show up, I will make a MINT selling Crystal Light by the cup.”
Take it, please, it’s yours. Just remove it from the ground, put it on a flat bed truck, have it delivered to your house and installed on your front lawn.
maybe that is why Mr. F refuses to take it down, because he is making a mint selling Crystal Light to all of the tourists showing up.
Emma, yes to orange crystal light. I like it already bottled. I have only been able to find it by the bottle at Costco. Do you know of other places? As to assimilation, I don’t think most people here think it is unreasonable to expect immigrants to assimilate. I think most people expect it to take more than a year or 2.
WHWN, I disagree that most people were willing to let the sign go when it had message 1 or message 2 on it. I think most people were angered by it. I know many people who are very sympathetic to the immigrant situtation who just see red when you mention the sign to them.
I think Mr. Fernandez is a decent man who has been very ill-advised. He stubbornly is clinging to a concept that has done a great deal to damage race relations.
Message 3 is simply unconscionable. Its is unacceptable and anything he would do in the future with that property involving a sign would not be accepted by 90% of the people of our area. You cannot spit on people and slap their faces and expect them to like it.
The city has been more than patient. What might have been cheering for David overcoming Goliath has ended up an object of loathing and scorn.
Moon-howler, you are truly one of the shining voices of common sense that keeps me coming back here. I could not have said it better. I will be in Old Town all afternoon today, and that sign will be in my face. It spits all over people who have made sacrifices that allow people like Mr. Fernandez to express himself like that without getting imprisoned or shot. He has a stunning lack of ingratitude and should find a country where he would feel less enslaved.
lack of “gratitude,” I mean. I should make some coffee…
emma,
totally agree. fernandez is animal garbage and should be sent back to the country he apparently likes better than the one he’s in. If he’s naturalized I think he should have his papers pulled and sent on his way. the guy is scum, if anything about this whole mess makes my blood burn it’s that sign and it really makes me think of hispanics in a negative way honestly whenever I look at a hispanic person I think of this sign and it’s sad that it’s so.
There goes Elvis, off on a racist tangent again. Animal garbage…Hispanics being represented by one sign? What about Native Americans? Are THEY “that sign” as well, Elvis? Am I, because I am a woman, a tampon commercial? Are you a viagra ad because you are a man? Come on. Think this through.
Elvis, you used to be so much more willing to engage in meaningful conversation. Lately, you sound like “the other.” Has someone hijacked your name? You can be angry at the sign and the choice Mr. F. has made, but please save dehumanizing, generalizing ranting for BVBL if you must have it.
I am still hoping Mr. F. will make this good. I believe he can. He has lived in the United States for a long, long time, has been a successful business person, and has raised a beautiful family. He still has time to do the right thing and bring the community together with his statement. Time will tell.
BTW, I’d put a mural on my lawn, but I live in a townhouse in Sheffield Manor. Not only is my lawn three feet by three feet, the HOA would be at my house every day because the mural wouldn’t match the cookie-cutter decor of our development. Remember, I got cited for my bird bath one year. : )
That property upon which the graffiti wall (it really is more than a “sign”) is standing happens to be in a historic district. There are far stricter rules involved for properties located in historic districts, yet Mr. Fernandez has been given a pass for nearly two years. I guarantee that if anyone else in that historic district should ignore the zoning regs as he has done, it would definitely not have taken this long for the wrath of government to descend upon them. That he now is making further demands that are actually being taken seriously is unconscionable, and further proof that, for some reason, there seems to be two sets of rules in this situation…one for him, and one for everyone else.
What would those who side with Mr. Fernandez say if the offender in this situation were, say, Greg Letiecq? Would you for one moment condone a double standard as you are doing for Mr. Fernandez? Rules are supposed to be for everyone, not selectively enforced. I believe that some of you are missing the point.
How is this a double standard? The City Council was blind-sided by the erection of the wall. It occured at a time when the DOJ was looking at the City’s definition of “family” and at a time when PWC was involved in the Immigration resolution brouhaha. The City showed judicial propriety in considering a number of issues…freedom of speech, costs to the taxpayers of any action that it would take, chances of success, requirements of the courts, etc. You need to take your complaint up with the court system since it gave Mr. F a continuance. (I guess when you have a law degree and thirty years experience in municipal law, I’ll listen to you.)
I frankly don’t care if you do listen to me, Censored, given that you seem to be so hostile. I offered my opinion for anyone to take or leave. It bothers me naught if you leave it.
Well said, Censored bybvbl!
So you have thirty years experience in municipal law? Funny how this blog attracts people from all walks of life. So many of our contributors work in fields that are directly affected by misguided government policy and destructive law enforcement policy. These are the people who saw the Duecaster Disaster coming a mile away but previously had no outlet to share their expertise, sadly for us all.
But now things are changing. And I think a lot of it is due to the people on this blog. And I’m talking about the Hate Bunnies too, who are in my view invaluable. We have just the right mix of informed and educated people vs. people who are otherwise oriented.
I suppose that’s the triumph of F.A.I.R. and Gospel Greg. Their talking points emboldened ignorant and easily swayed people who previously hadn’t known how to channel their anxiety and resentment. With a little cut and paste, Hate Bunnies and the Rick Bentley Who Has Not Thought Things Through’s of the world felt properly armed for an intellectual exchange with concerned citizens who tend to things through as a part of their job training.
It serves as a reminder that people who work in government have more responsibility in today’s world of internet technology. Bad information is easier to propagate, which means people who have good information have to join the public discourse in order to protect our democracy … even if that means learning a new trick like posting on blogs.
Kudos to all of you from the type-writer generation for learning this skill. It truly is a public service.
KGotthart, you are being unfair to Elvis. He is obviously the OPPOSITE of Viagra. Happy 4th of July everyone!
Ah, KG, so you’re an HOA nimby. That explains a lot.
AWCheney good points and welcome back! I imagine that the Manassas city government is being cautious in responding to community outcry about the sign because there is a racial element to the conflict, and no one wants to see local government offices appropriated by people with political agendas, particularly not those who have political agendas tainted by racial intolerance.
I think Gospel Greg has a lot to do with this caution. Because his blog is notorious for racist and hateful lies, and because he used the blog to stoke racial tension and the sign simply a prop for him in this regard, and because the sign was vandalized and hateful messages were left there … it really took on the feel of a racial conflict that, yes, involved free speech.
As the Washington Post article points out, the sign has been sort of like a counter-blog to Gospel Greg’s blog. As far as I know, those who were offended by Gospel Greg’s blog didn’t try to bend the law in their favor to shut the site down. Rather, they simply countered his arguments, exposed his lies, and ridiculed his tactics. Before long, they’d stolen his audience and taken away his power.
I wonder if the same could be done with regard to the sign. The message of the sign seems to be people around here behave like racists. A good way to counter that message would be NOT to behave like racists. Just a thought.
WHWN, no! I’m not a lawyer. I was refering (sp?) to the City’s attorney and any other lawyers the City has employed to examine the issues surrounding the wall (and DOJ issues). Sorry I didn’t make that clear.
WHWN, how about good people being arbitrarily accused of behaving like racists? Sweeping generalizations issuing from people, regardless which side of the debate they may reside, on a subject which tends to illicit passionate discussion anyway can, in and of itself, easily lead to passions reaching a boiling point.
It’s all reminiscient of a line from a Simpson’s episode titled “Homer: Bad Man”.
In the scene, Homer begins opening all the Krusty Klump Bar wrappers
in the Kwik-E-Mart. Apu, the store owner, responds:
“Hey, Hey, Hey! I have asked you nicely nicely not to mangle my merchandise.
You leave me no choice but to … ask you nicely again.”
Mr. Fernandez has mangled Manassas for months and the city has played the
role of Apu – that is about to change. The wheels of justice are slow to some,
but they are turning.
I wonder if the same could be done with regard to the sign. The message of the sign seems to be people around here behave like racists. A good way to counter that message would be NOT to behave like racists. Just a thought.
WHWN, I agree. The best action is to suck it up and let the issue run its legal course. Anyone who is so upset that he/she damages the sign just proves Mr. F’s point…particularly on this holiday weekend.
AWC, Some good people speak like racists and do not realize they are doing so. My opinion would not change about the sign, regardless of who owned it or erected it.
To all readers: There is an excellent explanation of what is happening with the sign over on bvbl. A former city employee has spoken up and explained how these things work and the reasoning behind some of the apparent delays. I would have snagged it but I somehow thought the person ought to have a choice about whether to post here or not…and far be from me to plant someone where they might not want to be planted.
I would suggest that everyone who is interested go and read it. It isn’t hard to find; it stands out as a voice of reason.
If GL had a similar sign, you can bet the anger and ranting would be twice as loud…..to say nothing of the kinds of trash that might collect on the property which seems to be part of the citation against the sign area.
Mr. F. has the chance to make part of history come alive and fit right in with Old Town.
I believe Mr. Fernandez has already made history come “alive.” There is a good chance this is no where near over.
While Mr. Fernandez is busy exercising his supposed rights, he has made untold enemies. Unfortunately, human nature being what it is, people allow their feelings about that sign to bleed over into their feelings about hispanics in general. I am not so sure that was Mr. Fernandez’s intentions.
Kgotthardt, you do understand that MANY people who have friends of all races and who have not gotten embroiled in the immigration battle find that sign horribly offensive? Have you read it? Do you like what it says about YOU?
Hate speech is hate speech and regardless of why he says it, Mr. Fernandez is publishing hate speech against Eurpoean Americans. I happen to belong to that group and I don’t like the things his sign says about me.
Moon howler,
I see that the sign has an extreme message but if not for the Native Americans=Hispanics, the things he is saying are historic facts that could be attributed to European Americans(killing the real native americans, slavery,etc). We learn from that and we shouldn’t feel offended just don’t do it again.
Would the Germans feel bad because someone tells them that they were respoonsible of genocide (even if you were not a member of the nazi party)?. The sign is not telling us that “We” did it but we should own that part of history too. Now we should move on
The Native American argument is a sound one. 400 years is really not that long of a time in human history. Among many things, it must have been confusing to see Europeans come here from Spain, England, France, etc and declare they owned the land, and that there were borders that could not be seen: borders between different states, between different counties, between a Reservation and U.S. proper. During different wars and land grabs, those borders have jumped over people who were living in Mexico, or in French territories, turning them into foreigners on their own land.
Essentially, the primary difference between Native Americans from north of today’s invisible border and Native Americans from south of today’s invisible border is the nation that conquered them. Their blood is mixed with the colonials, and they have taken on the language of the colonials, on BOTH sides of that invisible fence.
Some of these people have not become “modernized” enough to understand why invisible borders are erected. I haven’t been able to find it in me to hate them for it. And I don’t have it in me to hate Mr. Fernandez for pointing it out.
While I had to come inside because of the rain too as WE all celebrate the 4th, it made me think of this song.
I declare a rain break 🙂
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWYRfsjBNQk
I don’t hate Mr. Fernandez for pointing it out….I dislike his sign and what it has done to further divide the cultures in this region.
We could take this entire argument to its limits and point out that many Native Americans killed each other, whether it was a tribal war on the Great Plains or on the steps on an ancient temple in Mexico as human sacrifice. I can’t think of a single ‘innocent’ culture. No one get to wear the ‘I didn’t kill for greed hat.’
Furthermore, the sign shows intense disregard for history and an understanding of the 287(g) program. It is fine to point a finger and say others are the bad guys but Mr. Fernandez needs to include his own culture when pointing out atrocities. To just assume victim mentality doesn’t paint the full picture.
Time to move on is right!
“Kgotthardt, you do understand that MANY people who have friends of all races and who have not gotten embroiled in the immigration battle find that sign horribly offensive? Have you read it? Do you like what it says about YOU?”
I do understand that, and they have the right to be offended just as you do. When I read that sign (which I have) I see rightful anger from people who feel oppressed. I am not saying I think the message is kind or useful (I think a mural could be a better expression of the history of that message). What I am saying is I understand from whence it comes.
And no, I guess I don’t feel like it is directed at me because I haven’t done bad things to the people who are represented on that wall. I fell BAD they had to go through that, but I know I didn’t do it.
I have had touches of “white guilt” I took on from angry people before, and I decided it is not a useful or earned emotion for me. In my heart of hearts, I know I love the differences in people and in cultures. I know I make dumb cultural mistakes all the time, but I know I am not mean. So I didn’t take any guilt from that sign. I did take away reminders of sadder parts of our histories, parts that we are again remided of because of the immigration fights. How many times do we have to be reminded before we start preventing hatred before it erupts?
if the mexican’s dont want to be oppressed why dont they go back to whence the came? I mean come on, we hear all the time about them bitching about their “rights” all the while illegally being in the country. we see them all the time waving their mexican and south american flags around while proclaiming their “rights” all the while crapping on the tenets of our country.
i dont feel one tinge of anything for these people, they really need to go back to their country. I dont want illegal people here, they serve no purpose but to be parasites and they count on people like KG and the blog owners to come to their defense. The only problem is they are taking advantage of you and you are too stupid to realize it.
kgotthardt,
I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. After the first message I sort of had a David slaying Goliath moment. I do understand anger and I understand striking back. The second message had a pretty decent message. (The sign was still an eyesore) However, the third message to me, is offensive. It makes no exception for those of us who did to anything to harm anyone. It broadbrushes all of us European Americans.
I have no problem having a discussion about things my country has done wrong. However, I will not tolerate someone, anyone, broadbrushing all of us. And yes, unless exceptions are made, it does mean you and me.
There are many things to say…Mr. Fernandez chose the wrong things to say. In fact, I have read that sign about 20 times since I was last in Mr. Fernandez’s presence. I am actually rather sorry I didn’t go up to him and tell him to go F*** himself because that is exactly what he is saying to us.
I am mature enough to not blame the rest of the hispanic community, however.
Elvis, last time I checked the “mexican’s” [sic] you refer to were from North America (continent-wise), as are the Salvadorans, who are the largest single Latino group in the area. As for whether illegal immigrants have a purpose here, I guess they have a purpose for those who hire them. Most are not day laborers but have regular jobs. If you want to address what you see as the problem, the focus should be on the employers.