What I have always respected about Turn PW Blue, is the reasonable and logical way he approaches problem solving, while still taking into consideration the human perspective. What PW proposes are solutions that are not only fair BUT can be implemented. I believe this is an approach that most people could support. Let’s talk about it!
Turn PW Blue, 23. July 2008, 10:05
OK, this is going to be long–not apologizing, just warning…This issue, like so many others facing our nation today, has been brought down to a sound-bite level that does none of us any good. We want to boil it down into simplistic terms and arguments–you either “get the problem” or you’re an illegal alien sympathizer…if you question cracking down on illegal immigrants, you’re racist…you’re either with us or you’re against us.
Well, folks, it’s not that simple. There are shades of grey and nuances of position.
I have a problem with illegal immigration. I don’t think it’s right. I don’t believe there should be a blind eye to what is, after all is said and done, an illegal action. But I also don’t believe that rounding up everyone without proper documentation is the answer. I empathize with those who have risked an awful lot to try to make it to the United States simply on the ideal that a better life will await them. Isn’t that, after all, the message we try to send about America? It’s the land of boundless opportunity. Further, the economist and free-marketer in me sees the value of the ready flow of labor in the economy.
So I’m torn.
On one hand you have a group that has violated the law. They are here illegally. The law and order side of me says all else is not germane to the discussion. They broke a law. They should not be here. But the human side is not irrelevant. In fact, it is the very core of who we are as a nation. Are we not a nation of immigrants? Were we not founded by people seeking to escape persecution and to live free? Is that not the very premise upon which we founded this great republic?
So here’s my plan…my modest proposal, if you will.
One, our current immigration laws are broken. The quotas we have established are arbitrary. The process to become a legal citizen is overly complex and too restrictive. We need to reset our quotas and institute comprehensive immigration reform that includes temporary worker programs. We can look to the EU for some ideas on how such programs might work.
Second, we need to establish a path to citizenship for those who are already here and have been productive, law-abiding members of our society. It is all well and good to say that they are tainted by their first act of lawlessness and not fit for citizenship, but let’s be realistic. There are at least 12 million undocumented immigrants in the United States. It is neither rational nor feasible to even ponder a course of action that does not include some way to legitimize those who, except for the “original sin” of entering the country illegally, have lived model lives. We cannot deport 12 million+, so let’s not muddy the waters by even trying to contemplate how we can do that. So who qualifies? One, longevity counts. Show proof you’ve been in the country more than five years and you can enter the program. Been here less than five years? You can apply for a temporary worker visa or go home. Two, law breakers are out. Drive drunk? You go home. Steal? You go home. Any misdemeanor or felony is a ticket to deportation. Three, pass the naturalization exam.
Third, in conjunction with reform to our immigrations laws, we need to put some teeth in our immigration enforcement. So long as a viable worker visa program exists and quotas are set reasonably, there is no reason not to tighten up the border and crack down on those who attempt to enter the country through illegal means. Additionally, we need to go after those who provide the very incentive for people to risk everything to come here–employers. As part of our immigration reform, we need to put in place substantial penalties for those who hire and exploit undocumented workers. Large fines and jail time are appropriate for the most egregious and habitual violators. Eliminate the demand for cheap, immigrant labor and the supply will dry up. Put in a system to check immigration status that actually works (the current eVerify is a disaster).
At the local government level, get out of the immigration debate. All Corey Stewart has done is pawn off the problem on someone else, create a sense of ill-will with surrounding jurisdictions, and paint PWC as intolerant (at best) and bigoted (at worst). Local government should be dealing with local issues. With all the talk about illegal immigration and the time and effort expended on this issue, other core responsibilities of local government have been ignored (to our peril). Our roads are crowded and our schools are bursting. Our tax base is too reliant on residential. Far too many of our citizens are on the road 30 minutes to several hours a day commuting outside of PWC to find gainful employment. You want to make a name for yourself in PWC politics? Find a way to fix those issues and stop looking for cheap publicity by latching on to the newest “hot topic” in confrontational governing.
Notice that no where in this proposal do I talk about language or culture. We are a nation in constant flux. Our culture is an agglomeration of the cultures of our own ancestors with some homespun spice. You cannot legislate culture. You cannot legislate acculturation. Our “American” culture has survived past influxes of immigrants (who were, at the time, considered “undesirable” and a “threat” to the American way of life). We will survive and prosper through this one as well.
Hi Elena
I listened to a podcast the other day which might be of interest to you and your readers – it’s not about immigration per se (so people on both side of the face might appreciate it) but explains how NAFTA affected workers in both Mexico and the US.
It’s interesting because it talks about how the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer – on both sides of the border.
Just imagine for a minute that a poor working class American has more in common with a poor working class Mexican and that their economic enemy is not each other it’s the ultra-wealthy elite…
http://www.podcastdirectory.com/podcasts/40601
No, no, no. No Amnesty. No reward for breaking the law. This is history repeating itself. You give people a reward for breaking in, and many more will come, and those here “less than 5 years” will stay as well.
This malarky McCain spews about “sealing the border” is hogwash. it is not possible to do that. It is only possibly to provide disincentive to come here illegally. An amnesty provides incentive, and this boloney about pretending you can set a limit at 5 years is wishful thinking, not grounded in reality.
Ahh Rick however I thought it was never possible for a terrorist group to hijack our means of transportation, fly it to New York in broad daylight and take down the cities 2 tallest buildings and in retaliation our President ficticiously creates a story to invade a Country that has nothing to do with it….and STILL remaining in office, yet they wanted to impeach Clinton for ORAL SEX…
So I dont use the word “impossible” anymore….
Sorry, Didnt mean to trail off subject..Just wanted to point out that anything is possible
UK Visa,
Thanks for the link, I have always wondered how NAFTA affected immigration, if at all.
OK, Rick, then what do you propose? What is your “optimum” solution? You are quick to critique but seem less able to provide a reasoned alternative. I’m not saying that what I wrote is pure genius, but it’s more than “no, no, no! You’re wrong.”
I am, in all sincerity, interested in the type of solution you think is appropriate. Once the different ideas are on the table, then it’s possible to see where there is common ground, where there is room for compromise, and where actual progress can take place.
You know, a good dis-incentive would be to pay the Mexican workers the same wages we pay ourselves when they work in OUR Mexico based factories. That means Mexicans working on materials to be consumed by the U. S. will be paid as if they are working in the U.S.— then it would be like having their own USA and there would be no need to come here…
If American companies don’t like it, then they should not have factories in Mexico…
We can apply the fair wage system to the rest of our global manufacturing…I mean we are the Greatest Nation on the face of the earth aren’t we? Our corporations should treat their foreign workers as we should all want to be treated!
So who’s with me?
-chirp chirp chirp
Illegal aliens are the price of capitalism, stop investing in capitalism and you will see less aliens.
The optimal solution is we start letting people in legally for some type of guest worker program, but they have to apply from their home countries – no one gets anything positive from being here illegally for so long.
Sob stories, families broken up – I don’t accept the blame for that. We either live with massive illagal immigration or we don’t – and tolerating or rewarding it will AS RECENT HISTORY SHOWS only yields more of it, flowery rhetoric from our dishonorable leaders to the contrary.
TPWB, Rick has already stated what his solution is on the thread about the pregnant woman being tortured.
===============================================================
Rick Bentley, 18. July 2008, 10:23
Shall I provoke you more and tell you some things that would not bother me if done systematically to each and every illegal alien before deportation :
Waterboarding
Stacking them into naked pyramids and jumping on top
Slapping them in the face
Branding them with irons for ease of future identification
Not because I’m sadistic. Simply because we are either overly welcoming (the current situation) or we are not. We collectively need to go one way or the other.
=======================================================================
I have some friends who’s family recieved simular “Brandings” on their right arm, after that they were put gassed and cremated in ovens.
I like your solution Blue, it’s better than Rick’s Final Solution…
Turn PW Blue,
My frustration has been, there is no apparent middle ground. If you suggest a pathway to required legalization, you are labeled as supporting amnesty. How do we get past this chasm? I honestly don’t know.
@Elena
“Turn PW Blue,
My frustration has been, there is no apparent middle ground. If you suggest a pathway to required legalization, you are labeled as supporting amnesty. How do we get past this chasm? I honestly don’t know.”
Fortify the border 1st to guarantee there will not be another mass illegal exodus once these items are on are the table.
Elena, I’m sure you’re familiar with the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (personality test). I really think we’re seeing the different personalities at work when we discuss this issue of immigration – the warring feeling/thinking and judging/perception. I think it requires work for anyone to see the issue from another’s perspective. However, as TPWB points out – the people are here and the majority are not going away. So we’ll have to deal with that fact. I like his suggestions and think something similar will be accepted by Congress after the elections. It’s not an issue that they/we can afford to ignore much longer.
To add, I could FULLY get behind TPWB’s proposal as long as the border is secured 1st and I think alot of fellow Americans feel the same way.
Thanks for sharing Mando, I think that you are correct in that assessment. However, fully securing the border is almost unattainable. I think in conjunction with TPWB’s suggestions, we should also consider what Rod has alluded to about fair wages for foreign workers inside their own country. I believe the real problems must be tacked outside our border in addition to dealing within issues inside our border.
What Rod alluded to would have the reverse affect. 1st, if we were to require all those American companies in Mexico to pay a “fair” wage, they’d pack up and move to China lickety split. 2nd, if we required those American companies to pay a “fair” wage in China as well, they’d be out of business lickety split. This is a global economy. We have to compete globally or die.
“fully securing the border is almost unattainable”
I disagree as would Mackie and there’s not much I agree with him on.
“I believe the real problems must be tacked outside our border in addition to dealing within issues inside our border.”
Also, keep in mind that it is in the Mexican govt’s best interest to keep things exactly as they are.
@Elena, would you agree with TPWCB’s 3rd proposal? I mean SERIOUSLY cracking down on those that hire illegal aliens? AND getting rid of contracter loop-holes?
I think that is unattainable for various reasons, and one of them being everytime a business is slammed for violations there’s an outcry – including from some people agreeing with TPWCP’s proposal.
We CANNOT have it both ways.
Elena – we do not get past this issue. There is no path that lets illegal aliens stay here and profit from sneaking in, that is not an amnesty and that won’t encourage further waves of illegal immigration. We move forward one way, or the other – or maintain the current messed-up status quo.
“fully securing the border is almost unattainable”
Yes. With the current environment. Now if we had my way and it wasn’t possible to illegally work here and rent and buy property without attracting attention, the statement would be less true and maybe there would be some actual “Homeland Security” possible.
But for a John McCain to stand and pretend that we can secure the borders while playing nice with all the illegals who sneaked in so far, that’s nonsense. It’s like asking “How can I keep criminals from burglarizing my home, without having to prosecute them? How can I convince them that just because I didn’t prosecute the last 100 people who came in and took money off my dining room table, who think of me as a complete wuss, that they shouldn’t do it again?”
Mando,
I think your request to have the border secured is very reasonable. I don’t know how it is going to happen. I think most of us would certain agree with that though. No barrier is 100%. Look at the people who escaped from satellite block countries with guns pointing at them. Despite all odds, many made it through and lived to tell about their escapades.
Rick,
You have to compromise. You cannot get rid of 12-20 million people and you can’t keep things as they are. What you have now is amnesty because in doing nothing, you say it is fine to be here. There must be change. We all might not like the change but it has to happened. To do nothing is completely irresponsible.
So today, 7/23/08 in the MJM in the “Police Briefs” section, 3 out of 5 reported crimes were committed by hispanics. In addition, on page A3 of same newspaper, a Wilfred St. Maria Dayanan was arrested for child porn. That makes FOUR crimes perpetrated by hispanics reported today alone.. Yes, we DO have crime problem as a result of the hispanic invaders. SHAME on the illegal alien enablers who encourage these atrocities in our community. Oh, but they are just hard working cucarachas who want to put food on the table. It will take one armed confrontation with a concealed carry permit carrier wasting one of these cucarachas before things get better. YOU are responsible for your personal safety, NOT the police. Lets hear it for the Second Ammendment…..YES!
Elena stated on 23 July 2008, 15:48 . . .
Elena, you are correct. There is a politicized stigma that attaches to people who seek a pathway to legalization for immigrating people who are undocumented. But the stigma is artificial and serves only as a cheap political finger-pointing tactic. It is intentionally distractive, and does nothing to speak to the human reality of the situation.
To grant amnesty is to grant forgiveness, and forgiveness is granted when there is an overriding view to mercy rather than a narrow view to cold legalism. If immigrating people are here without documentation simply because they are in genuine human need, then I would say the weight of their human need outweighs the weight of their legal transgression. Forgiveness — amnesty — is therefore good.
So far the means of finding a solution to the “problem” has been to take the political approach, such as in attempting to influence politicians, protesting against legislation/resolutions, proposing varying legal and legislative avenues, etc. And it is an approach that is not working.
What is needed, Elena, is not middle ground (which merely places us on the same non-productive playing field). What is needed is new ground. And that requires an entirely new and different (and perhaps radical) way of seeing things and doing things.
Before discussing this further it is absolutely necessary to first answer a core question: in relation to the “immigration issue”, with a view to the paramount human factor, what is (1) our ultimate objective, and (2) our moral responsibility?
The answer to that critical question will help shape the solution.
I think it would be worthwhile to use this thread to discuss those two questions and then ponder alternative solutions that have thus far not yet been contemplated. I’d therefore enjoy reading your answer to those two questions.
maribel,
The point of this thread, I believe, is to find as some put it, common ground or new ground. This thread is about solutions, and whether people agree or disagree with the one put before them. Most of the people above are doing just that.
Please come prepared to talk about solutions with your arguments and not nasty generalizations. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I am guessing from your post that you are for a big crackdown on illegal immigration and that you do not think highly of Hispanic people; you can have your opinion. If you want us to listen, you may want to refrain from attributing most PWC crime to “hispanic invaders”, picking out any names that sound Hispanic or Latino to you, calling people “cucarachas”, or implying that you wish gun violence on Hispanic people.
Turn PW Blue:
Thank you for your comments and well thought out possibilities for solutions. Applaud, applaud, applaud.
This is just the type of dialog needs to be shared with our legislators at the Federal level.
Robb Pearson:
You also share some very insightful thoughts.
Thanks to you both.
Welcome back Marie. I hope you had an enjoyable vacation.
no amnesty !!!!
Take away the jobs for illegals then they would leave. Take away the incentives to come to our US illegally.
Dime
PW Blue has a good general concept, but the blog misses some realities.
– Most local governments didn’t/don’t want to address immigration issues-
it landed on their heads courtesy of the infamous Feds. They were left
to deal with the fiscal and social impact of a rapid wave of illegal immigration
by themselves with no experience in the area, few tools and irate citizens
screaming for them to “do something NOW!”
– Even supporters of the undocumented admit that they cost LOCAL government
far more in services than they pay in taxes – especially in LOCAL schools.
– Part of any good answer must include addressing the real needs of LOCAL
communities as they attempt to manage the impacts of quick and massive
demographic changes in the recent past.
Poor Richard, agreed that specific localities bear more of the financial responsiblity. However, I also believe there has been a hysteria created about the number of illegal immigrants, and now, if you are hispanic, or speak spanish, you may be instantly viewed as possibly being an “illegal”, a label that continues to degrade the humanity in every person.
Robb,
Very thoughtful questions. I think I will have to ponder for a while before I answer. I know what I want to say, but I’m not sure how I can express what I believe is a pretty simple premise. I want the division to stop, I want the scapegoating to stop, I want to help communities deal with demographic changes, etc. I want people to recognize the commonality that binds us together as the human race. But I also have to be realistic in what one nation can absorb. Are we full? If you look at the numbers, we have concentration of citizens on two coast…..east and west, but the middle is not nearly as densely populated.
I think history has taught us what happens when you turn away those that are in need of you most and it isn’t a pretty legacy. As a nation, are the words on the statue of liberty empty rhetoric, no longer applicable to our “modern” world? I don’t know the answers, I just know that if I were born in another country, with no real future for me or my children, would I not seek the same opportunities? Oh wait, that IS the story of my families path to America.
Maribel,
Comparing people to cockroaches is unacceptable. And the threat of violence against anyone because of their ethnicity is simply disgusting.
Consider this a warning.
Mirabel,
Wow, this was the depth of conversation you could offer? TPWB has some great ideas here, and yet you, are only able to come back with degrading rhetoric about hispanics, that is speaks to your own character.
Mando,
It is really a question of priorities and investment. I would rather see billions of dollars go to innovative solutions to our energy crisis which then addresses global warming, to do less is to compromise the future for our children and grandchildren. I would rather see targeted money to help our neighbors improve their democracy and improve their own economic circumstances.
“You have to compromise. You cannot get rid of 12-20 million people and you can’t keep things as they are.”
If the social environment changes, most of them leave of their own accord. DON’T TELL ME OTHERWISE because I saw it happen in my own neighborhood and I thank God every day.
“What you have now is amnesty because in doing nothing, you say it is fine to be here.” Not exactly. And they are starting to understand despite Bush, McCain, Obama’s best efforts to make them welcome, that they are not.
I welcome extended debate about all aspects of this issue because the only reason Amnesty got as close as it did is a huge disinformation campaign that has been propogated against the American people.
Thank you Moon-Howler. I had a wonderful time in CA with my family.
This is somewhat off the topic .I traveled on the highways of CA and witnessed first hand once again farmworkers laboring for meager wages in the hot sun in the miles and miles of fields of California to put food on my table. It is a sight that always makes me think and reaches into my soul. I decided to talk to those who were on lunch breaks to see how they managed to do this work day after day. All they kept saying is that they were thankful for the work and it provides the basic needs for our families. Many of these migrant laborers and immigrants of color are underpayed and work in in often unsafe and unsanitary work environments. Not one complaint!!! All were happy to be working. I can not imagine any American born citizen doing the back breaking work that these greatful migrant workers do. Everyone should witness this first hand and take the time to say thank you.
I have a question for TPWB on an element of his plan. Are you being literal when you say “any misdemeanor” is a ticket to deportation? Jaywalking for example?
On another note, it is amazing to me that some people still talk seriously about securing the border. First, the planned fence is just 700 miles. If it survives all the challenges from environmentalist, American Indian, and municipal lawsuits, it still will be less than half the border. Presuming it is finished (a huge presumption), it is highly unlikely that it will block any determined effort to surmount it and since it is less than half the area, there are obvious alternatives. Plus some 45 percent of people in illegal status came into the country legally.
PS: The second point above was not a comment on TWPWB’s plan, which seems quite thoughtful apart from the “jaywalking” loophole.
Amen Rick! God is on your side. I know he doesn’t like Brown people anyway. It doesn’t help that they have all those churches south of the border. Keep praying because he always listen to people like you.
Seeking rational best courses of action on the complex issue of illegal
immigration (even what to call it is a sore subject – undocumented?)
leads to being attacked as an “apoligist for criminals” on BVBL and
this blog’s favorite – “hyterical racist”. You each have a party line that
must be rigidly followed. The majority of the community – pragmatic
and moderate – is pushed out of the conversation.
TH I don’t believe in any God at all, you have me pegged wrong. And I used to eb a solid Clinton Democrat.
poor richard,
do you see this post as representative as the polar opposite of bvbl?
Leila:
In most states traffic offenses and violations are not classified as misdemeanors or felonies until they reach a certain level of severity (in Virginia, for instance, reckless driving is a Class 1 Misdemeanor, not a traffic violation). Traffic violations would not be grounds for deportation while misdemeanors (and felonies) stemming from traffic infractions would be. 5 miles over the speed limit? Not grounds for deportation. 20 over, yes. Jaywalking? Not grounds for deportation. Drunk driving, yes.
Rick:
What you saw in your neighborhood was a microcosm event. My bet is that the people who left your neighborhood only moved a few miles away, not back to their home country. That’s one of the great farces of the immigration resolution. It only shifts the “problem” to someone else’s backyard. It doesn’t really solve anything.
Do you really believe that on a macro level it is possible to deport or remove over 12 million people from the US? While cracking down on those who employ undocumented workers will stem a large portion of the flow of illegal immigrant labor, it won’t address those who are “off book” in either the cash-only economy or the underground economy (drugs, gangs, etc.).
In regards to maribel’s comment, I’,m sorry to see that some things never change.
I think that response coupled with Robb Pearson’s questions form an interesting dichotomy. Clearly, maribel, you do not see Hispanics as people (even going so far as to demean them as cockroaches). If that is your true belief and perspective, then we will never have a productive dialog. We are not on the same planet, let alone in the same room. The element that so many want to remove from the discussion is that we are talking about people–living, breathing, thinking people. It’s all well and good to talk about the “rule of law” and “blind justice” but it is impossible to remove the human element from the discussion. We ignore it at our peril.
I also find it interesting that so many on the “law and order” side of the immigration debate also seem to be staunch supporters of the anti-abortion/right-to-life movement. They can see the humanity in a human fetus but somehow are able to dismiss the humanity in an immigrant.
It further astounds me to hear so many on the anti-immigrant side throwing around Biblical texts as justification for their vitriol. From my religious upbringing (the son of a pastor, graduate of a religious college, and an active and involved member of a local congregation), I find little in the Gospels (and Bible as a whole) that would support the intolerance, hatred, and vile bigotry I’ve seen spewed in God’s name on this issue. Was it not Jesus who associated with the outcasts and sinners of society–lepers, prostitutes, and (egads!) tax collectors?
“What you saw in your neighborhood was a microcosm event. My bet is that the people who left your neighborhood only moved a few miles away, not back to their home country. That’s one of the great farces of the immigration resolution. It only shifts the “problem” to someone else’s backyard. It doesn’t really solve anything.”
Yeah. And I’m sleeping better at night knowing they’re a few miles away instead of hanging out on my lawn. And looking forward to watching what happens in the neighboring counties as their cheap workers begin to live next door to them.
“Do you really believe that on a macro level it is possible to deport or remove over 12 million people from the US? ”
It’s not only possible but inevitable that we will provide disincentive for them to be here and 95%+ will leave.
But, Rick, what is that disincentive?
It is telling that two of the groups most supportive of open borders are communists and corporate interests. Those are some strange bedfellows.
There is a book out by Jason Riley (of the Wall Street Journal) that makes an argument for open borders. Here’s an interview with him on the Colbert Report on Comedy Central:
You can stomp your feet and hold your breath hoping that any sort of amnesty will never happen. Well, there’s just not the support for your position. The will it would take to undertake deporting 12 million+ just isn’t there.
Well, clip got clipped.
Here’s the link:
http://www.comedycentral.com/colbertreport/videos.jhtml?videoId=176184
Poor Richard, 24. July 2008, 9:16
I think you are wrong. There are a few people here who get vocal but if there is a party line, I am afraid I don’t know what it is. Please enlighten me. I don’t think that you have characterized this blog correctly.
Turn PW Blue,
Your only problem with your “solution” is we already HAVE quotas and legal work permits. THAT DOES NOT WORK. Only enforcing the law the same on everyone, and that includes EVERY SINGLE “illegal” immigrant, will we EVER be able to bring only “LEGAL” immigrants into the country to persue the American dream. Your solution will work no better than the last 1986 Amnesty, with even more dire consequences to our current DEMOCRACY and ability to follow law. If we continue on this path, only criminals will be able to profit in our nation.
I don’t think we need any “infraction” to justify deportation of “illegal” immigrants. The fact that they broke immigration law is grounds enough. Everything else is just ineffective political roadblocking to the correct solution.
So, Michael, since my proposal is “ineffective political roadblocking to the correct solution,” what is the “correct solution”? You can add all the ALL-CAPS to your post as you’d like, but there really isn’t much substance there besides “your solution won’t work.” No real reasons it wouldn’t work besides the familiar tripe about following the law and threats to democracy, but there ain’t no meat on them thar bones.
First, to correct your assertion that we already have quotas and legal work permits. You are correct. Where you miss the point in my proposal is that the current quotas and work permit programs are inadequate. The number of people allowed to immigrate to the United States should be increased. The current quotas are somewhat random in how their numbers are generated and don’t reflect the actual demand and sustainable levels of immigration we should be allowing. Our work permit programs are woefully inadequate. Again, the quota numbers there are not in any sort of alignment with the actual demand and, in some cases, require yearly renewal by Congress (something that didn’t happen this year for many temporary workers who come to the US during the summer to support tourist destinations like beaches and resorts).
And please, stop resorting to the first-fruits argument that the original act of coming to the US illegally is all we need to care about. If you want to be so simplistic in your thinking, feel free, but try to add a little more to your schtick. Part of the reason there are so many illegals is because the very system that would have provided legal entry is BROKEN. A program that provides a path to citizenship for a select class of those who are currently here illegally provides a recognition that the current system is BROKEN (see, I can use all caps too) and acknowledges that those who have been productive, contributing members of society despite their illegal first-fruits deserve a path to citizenship that was denied to them because the current immigration system is crap.