Update July 26th: The special guests were Supervisor Wally Covington and Supervisor Marty Nohe. Also in attendance were Kris Nohe, Marty Nohe’s Senior Aide Tracy Gordon, and Supervisor John Stirrup aide Karen Ulrich.

Update July 25th: Getting word that we will have special guests from the county government attending tonight’s screening. I look forward to seeing everybody there!

Friday, July 25th at 7:30pm
Trinity Episcopal Church
9325 West Street
Manassas, VA 20110

240 Thoughts to “July 25 9500liberty Screening w/ Special Guests”

  1. Chris

    k
    There are a few programs like “mend house” through the county. Well, they may have been cut this go around just like the Manassas Senior Day Care Center. Grrrr!
    I will try to dig up some information and post it.

  2. “Well, they may have been cut this go around just like the Manassas Senior Day Care Center.”

    Yeah, what’s with that? The BOCS needs to remember that some day they will be old. I guess they aren’t worried though because they have enough money to do what they want in their golden years.

  3. Tenacious

    Censored, I agree that both Greg and the media painted MSF as an extremist group but Annabelle should not perpetuate that misperception.

    The BOCS wasn’t listening during that 12 hours of pleading and I am sure you have noticed that there has been an unmistakable absence of Hispanic voices at BOCS meetings since then. The BOCS can’t even acknowledge the damage inflicted on our community. I don’t believe for one minute that “film festivals” or “discussion circles” will do anything to heal those most wounded by the BOCS’s actions. What is the point of a one-sided conversation? Rescinding the resolution would go a long way to healing what is ailing this community and bring Hispanic voices back to the discussion.

  4. Chris

    k-
    Here’s a little something I found about Neighborhood Services parternering with “Project Mend-A-House”. This from the November/December 2005 edition of Neighborhood News.
    They help seniors, disabled, and low income residents of PWC, City of Manassas, and City of Manassas Park.
    http://www.pwcgov.org/docLibrary/PDF/004020.pdf

  5. Dolph

    We can look at the glass is half empty or the glass if half full.

    I am glad that Marty and Wally were smiling. Both of these gentlemen helped fix something that was horribly broken. I praise the efforts of those who managed to wrestle the resolution away from a few and into the hands of many. The teeth of the resolution have been broken and have no bite.

    Small incremental steps have been taken. Be patient. We have much to recuperate from and will get no where if we continue to fight over something that really is a done deal. If you think the resolution is the big problem, then you don’t understand it.

    Marie spoke some real words of wisdom. I think if we follow her advice we will go further than all the legislation in the world:

    Rescinding the resolution may help but I wonder. The damage has already been done. The Hispanic/Latino’s will never trust the community or its political leaders again and if they do it will take a very long time. So, it is up to us. Speak to your Hispanic/Latino neighbors, smile and say hello when you pass them on the street, in the grocery store, in the mall or where ever. The change in will have to start with each of us doing our part to help heal the wounds and to pull the knife out of their backs.

  6. Chris, thanks for the link. The project looks good. The question is though, who is “eligible”? Do they check citizen status?

  7. Tenacious

    Dolph,

    Responding to…“If you think the resolution is the big problem, then you don’t understand it.” My point exactly, it is not the resolution that continues to hurt our community, it is what it represents…the BOCS’s capitulation with a small group of extremist and their willingness to pray on the powerless to achieve their own political agendas. This is the reason Marty and Wally should not be smiling.
    The BOCS needs to acknowledge the destructiveness of their actions and rescinding the resolution would do that plus be a healing jester. If the resolution has “no bite” then why would anyone want to preserve something that inflicted so much pain?
    With all due respect…Never ask someone in pain to be patience. My husband once made that mistake when I was in labor. 🙂

  8. Censored bybvbl

    Tenacious, I have noticed the lack of Hispanic voices at the BOCS meetings. I think it’s a mistake to be uninvolved in those meetings despite the resolution. (I hope there have been some voter drives.) In hindsight, I’ll make a wild-assed guess and say that fewer than two hundred people in this entire county are responsible for that resolution being foisted off on us, and I have to thank Eric and Annabel for following the trail of how it was done. Greg Letiecq doesn’t speak for me and I’d venture to say he speaks for a small minority of people in this county.

    I don’t know if the damage can be repaired. Most of us who have always treated people equally will continue to do so. Do you think rescinding the resolution will bring many changes for the Hispanic community? What steps would you follow after that or in spite of that -if it isn’t rescinded?

  9. “If the resolution has “no bite” then why would anyone want to preserve something that inflicted so much pain?”

    I agree.

    I will continue to ask to have it recinded since it’s useless and just causes pain. For those who wanted it pushed through, they can be happy with 287g, neighborhood services etc. And I think if we have a citizen advisory board, people who feel they are being overlooked will still have a place to come to discuss issues that have NOT been dealt with.

    If HSM/FAIR/etc. want to keep pounding at this, let them do it at the federal level, not here in our home towns where their policy pushing has proven disastrous.

  10. Censored bybvbl

    If HSM/FAIR/etc. want to keep pounding at this, let them do it at the federal level, not here in our home towns where their policy pushing has proven disastrous.

    Right. We don’t need a hodge-podge of immigration law in this country. There should be an expected uniformity from state to state, county to county. And we don’t need the accompanying hostilites that these local laws create in our communities. Our communities are our homes, our refuges. We don’t need this crapola in our neighborhoods. Let the local zoning laws, noise ordinances, building codes, etc. take care of problems in the community – haha, as though those codes haven’t been reviled for decades themselves.

  11. TWINAD

    Wow, what an amazing week on Anti! I’ve been on vacation and I just finished reading through the last week’s postings and responses. I honestly think this week’s topics and threads have been amongst the best since I’ve started following the blog in late March.

    The video’s were great, Turn PW Blue’s post was fantastic (as always…and I’ve missed him lately!) and it sounds like last night’s event was well attended.

    Well done, Alanna and Elena!

  12. Chris

    k-
    I don’t know what if any restrictions PMAH have, if any. Here’s their website. I think you will find it quite interesting. Last year the completed 225 projects serving 100 clients with various things. Here’s the link. Enjoy!
    http://www.catalogueforphilanthropy-dc.org/2007/project_mendahouse_71669.htm

  13. Tenacious

    Censored, I will continue to push to have the resolution rescinded. If it is rescinded or even if it isn’t our BOCS need to initiate a PR campaign and do some serious outreach to the immigrants of our community. A citizens advisory board would be a great start as well as a public acknowledgement/affirmation of our county’s commitment to human rights and the work of the Human Rights Commission. Then we need a vehicle to address the problems that develop when diverse cultures must assimilate. We have all heard the complaints…noise, language, crowding, chickens, etc, etc, etc. Anytime they remain unaddressed it is fertile ground for the likes of FAIR and HSM. Wouldn’t it make sense to also share the lessons learned in this county with other jurisdictions? We were FAIR’s lab rats and we played right into their hands. Lets warn as many as we can.
    Another thing…I would think about replacing some members of the BOCS if they don’t soon become better stewards of the responsibilities that have been entrusted to them.

  14. Moon-howler

    The current BOCS is in office for the next the next 3 plus years. I would probably figure out a way to work with them or at least 5 of them. That’s what it is going to take. a 4-4 vote fails.

    I believe most of them are good people who got blind-sided by what they thought, however erroneously, to be the wishes of their constituents. Let’s give them a chance to do the right thing.

  15. Tenacious,

    I agree with you. If Marty and Wally were smiling at the end, we have failed. They should have been silent in shame. Did anyone ask them any tough questions directly?
    Depending on the good will and morality or our elected officials has clearly failed us. Now that the election season is over, we must look to bringing other pressures to bear.

    FAIR has turned our county into an example for others to follow. We will be victorious on the day that we turn all their hard work into an example of how their policies are utter failures.

  16. Moon-howler,

    I believe most of them are good people who got blind-sided by what they thought, however erroneously, to be the wishes of their constituents. Let’s give them a chance to do the right thing.

    They didn’t get blind sided so much as go along with what would get them elected. They had a chance to do the right thing and broke our county in two. Let’s not leave it up to them this time around. Let’s organize and build a wave of support that will wash them along with us.

  17. Censored bybvbl

    Tenacious, I agree with your ideas about community outreach, creating an advisory board, and warning other communities. We have a frightened group of citizens, a lack of knowledge within the community about the changes in the resolution, neighbors upset about problems near their homes (trash,noise,etc.), and a need for a PR campaign to negate the image our community has been given.

    I think the BOCS may need the cover of the university study in order to rescind the resolution . Personally, I’d like to see it rescinded because I think the 287g program in the jail is adequate.

  18. Moon-howler

    Mackie, I think you need to see one of the films. There were some pretty tough questions asked. Marty Nohe worked tirelessly to tweak some things that brought the immigration resolution full circle, back to the 287g program, which I have no problem with.

    The political reality is, if politians make policy change and then they still get beaten up, what is going to happen the next time a group of citizens approaches them?

    If Marty and Wally want to get beaten up, I am sure that the black velvets will oblige them. I don’t know. I feel like I am in bizarro land tonight. Their political demise is probably being plotted as we speak.

  19. What would happen to any of us if we voted not just for ourselves but for other people as well?

    We would be thrown in jail.

    What happens to the Ruling Class when they fraudulently vote in the name of others?

    Nothing.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYiDysD_5Jo

  20. I think we should support Marty, Wally, and Frank because they are LISTENING no matter what has happened in the past. If we don’t support them and the other side trashes them at the same time, what motivation do they have to continue to listen to us and hopefully support changes?

    People make mistakes. It’s a fact of life. I have more respect for people who say, hey, I made a mistake then I do for people who pretend they are always right even when most obvioulsy, they are wrong.

    The resolution CAN be undone, and ironically, it can be undone at no cost as opposed to the money that has already been wasted on trying to get it implemented. A genuine, “Hey, sorry, we just didn’t know but we want to make things better” is years above, “See? I told you so!” when nothing worthwhile has been said.

  21. To protect and to serve…

    Oh yeah, and also to tazer blind crippled old ladies…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zt9_Uve_Bc

  22. Dolph

    Tenacious,

    MWB needs to change its name if they want to change their image from that of an extremist group. I don’t know enough about the organization to speak to their goals. They seem to me to be a fairly voiceless, harmless organization with a name that does them no favors.

    Perception is reality. If I have a name that makes you think I am going to be in your face, then it doesn’t matter about my intent. Your mind is made up. If someone comes along and make you into a villain even more, then the die is cast.

    The public sees 2 sides. MWB and HSM. The moderate ‘side’ seems invisible and is not tolerated by either ‘side.’

  23. Tenacious

    Wow, it is late and I am tired but here goes.

    “I have more respect for people who say, hey, I made a mistake then I do for people who pretend they are always right even when most obvioulsy, they are wrong.” – the point I am trying to make is that none of the BOCS are admitting they made a mistake. They are only taking credit for sly political maneuvering. This does nothing to mend a broken community.
    As far as MWB/MSF’s choice of a name – As someone who has spent many years on the Mexico/US border I thought nothing of this name when I first heard it. It was not until I read the ranting on BVBL that I gave it a second thought. Does anyone know what the name means to the members of the organization? Is it indication of anarchist leanings? I doubt it. I will make it a point to investigate for sure but here is what I think. I have spent a lot of time on the Mexico/US border and I assure you that most of the US citizens and Mexican citizens living there move fluidly between the two countries on a daily basis. When I am there I am definitely a GWB (Gringo Without Borders). Moving back and forth and back and forth. On the border, borders make no sense. And walls are even more senseless. All the post- 911 security seems more of nuisance then a necessity. In some border towns they still share the same water and sewage systems,the same holidays, parades, etc. Anyway, I always took the name Mexicans Without Borders to designate a group of people that were living, for whatever reason, between two countries. Nothing more than that. After all, we live in a global society and technology is making man-made borders increasingly meaningless. Like it or not, capital and goods moves effortlessly across borders (NAFTA for example) and so do people, albeit not effortlessly.

  24. annabel

    Tenacious,

    When I referred to Mexican without borders last at the screening on Friday night, it was reply to how Greg and HSM feel about our work. I was trying to explain where Eric and I were at the beginning of our project. I said that we didn’t really know much about the immigration debate, we didn’t have any opinions about how the immigration issue should be resolved, and we didn’t readily identify with the two sides that we thought were in conflict so we felt like we could be neutral.

    I don’t think now that HSM and MWB represent two ends of a spectrum. In fact, I don’t see a spectrum really. I see a distinct phenomenon. This is what I said in the thread about our latest two videos in replying to Mackie’s question about whether or not we are biased.

    When we began our project 11 months ago, Eric and I knew little about the immigration debate. So it’s true that we didn’t feel as if we were on any side of the issue. At the beginning, we mistakenly thought that the story was about a political fight over the immigration issue with two sides — Help Save Manassas on one side and Mexicans Without Borders on the other — and since we didn’t identify readily with either, we thought it would be easy to be “neutral.”

    After five weeks of researching, documenting and interviewing people, we concluded that there were serious communication problems and culture clashes snowballing into an irrevocable political showdown (October 16th vote). We got very focused on trying to create constructive dialogue in the community because we were concerned about the rising level of fear and hatred. We thought that if people could just talk to each other as neighbors instead of enemies, the residents of the county would stop the fighting. We hoped that our videos would help people become more informed and help communicate with each other. We started posting videos on October 9th.

    Once we started posting videos, we got a lot of hateful, racist comments about Latinos. These comments were coming from all over the country. We began to see what was happening in Prince William in the larger context of an anti-immigrant, anti-Latino movement.

    Over many more months of documenting, researching, investigating, and conducting interviews with relevant players, we discovered that there were activists and politicians politicizing a complex issue in the context of a heated election. It became more apparent as we got closer to the election. In November and December we learned about FAIR’s tactics and FAIR’s involvement in Help Save Manassas.

    Somewhere in our journey, the focus of our documentary shifted from the political fight over the immigration issue with two sides to a singular phenomenon, the politicization of the immigration issue.

    Did I say anything else that led you to think that I was perpetuating the perspective that there is a two-sided conflict in Prince William?

  25. Tenacious and Annabel, you are both right that MWB and HSM are not two opposing sides of a spectrum. I’m still a bit confused about MWB because (1) their name is so atrocious and (2) we allowed Gospel Greg to define them during the time that mattered most.

    Strictly speaking, it is inaccurate to mention the two groups as equally radical opposites.

    It is inaccurate because in truth, HSM is a lot more extreme, a lot more dangerous, and a lot more harmful to the community. HSM wanted to and still wants to impose radical changes to our way of life, a near police state in which sworn officers are charged with checking our papers each and every time we come into contact with them, whether we ran a red light or just asked them for directions. That is truly radical.

    What is radical about MWB? For a long while, they were the only ones brave enough to stand up to Gospel Greg. That was radical in the sense that no one else had the courage in 2007. No one.

    What else? Their main function, as I understand it, has been to support the immigrant community. Okay. So they don’t see people without papers as less human than people with papers. This is no where near as radical as storming our local government, seeking to transform our society into a quasi police state, and seriously damaging our economy, our public safety, our reputation, our tax base, and our tax rate for the foreseeable future. Radical edge goes to HSM.

    But the comparison is fair in one sense: reputation.

    Because MWB was the only group brave enough to stand up to HSM (even after they were called names, God forbid), they were viewed as antipodes during the peak of the conflict when most opinions were formed.

    They’ve got that horrible name.

    And, rightly or wrongly, the Black Velvet / HSM community seems to blame MWB for the content of Mr. Fernandez’s sign. There are some in the general public who share this assumption. Mr. Fernandez is a Mexican American who ALSO stood up to HSM when they were at their scariest, so it was not unreasonable to assume that he was working with MWB.

    And finally, because of Gospel Greg’s incomparable hate-mongering, one might even venture to say that MWB’s reputation is every bit as negative as HSM’s. At one point, MWB might have had a worse reputation in fact, when Gospel Greg still had some influence and was even considered as a leader in the VA Republican party.

    Now days, with the impacts of the Duecaster Economic Disaster beginning to take root, and with Gospel Greg’s string of public meltdowns, HSM has surpassed MWB in the bad reputation department. But broadly speaking, in terms of having a bad reputation, the two are roughly in the same boat because more people were paying attention in 2007 when Gospel Greg still had influence, before he dragged down the reputation of MWB with his notorious public meltdowns.

  26. Wow! I just reread Annabel’s post and saw something brilliant.

    Annabel wrote:

    I don’t think now that HSM and MWB represent two ends of a spectrum. In fact, I don’t see a spectrum really. I see a distinct phenomenon.

    Help Save Manassas was a distinct phenomenon. We saw the most active members of the PWC Republican party join forces with F.A.I.R., NumbersUSA, and the rest of a tech-savvy and hate-ridden national network known as The Anti-Immigrant Lobby. Until we figured out what we were facing, our democracy was held hostage, our leaders were paralyzed, and our community was torn apart.

    Perhaps to find the solutions we are seeking, we need to let go of the “two ends spectrum.” Thank you Tenacious for pointing this out, and thanks Annabel for the paradigm shift!

  27. Moon-howler

    The murky middle needs to come out of the closet and needs to not be marginalized. Most of us fit in the middle. In the beginning, there were only 2 choices: HSM and MWB. MWB has an atrocious name that makes them difficult to support, even if you sympathize, especially after HSM finished broadbrushing them. They didn’t do much outreach to the non-latino population and I understand why. They also used tired 20th century protest tactics that just weren’t effective at all. Judging from the age of their leaders, I think that the leadership folks had the best of intentions but out of date methods of implementing change. The people had great hope and their hope didn’t come to fruition.. What happened was a bad lesson in democracy.

    HSM blindsided the supervisors and the people of Prince William County. Their leader used technology to his benefit and there was support from the Republican Party. I don’t need to explain more about HSM, we are all extremely familiar with them.

    Had it not been for people pushing the middle ground, I believe the resolution would have remained at it was intended on October 16, 2007. Serveral supervisors were willing to listen and work with those moderates. I commend these supervisors and thank them efforts to undo a wrong. These supervisors to not exist in a vacuum and like politics, this issue becomes a matter of give and take. This mess wasn’t made in a day and it will not be corrected in a day.

    Many people have lobbied, documented, spoken and devoted a tremendous amount of time to alter the course of what appeared to be a raging river.

    Eric and Annabel have been invaluable. Their work speaks for itself. Their ability to talk with people and to get doors open that previously had been closed helped turn the tide of Prince William history.

    Alanna and Elena have given us a place to speak when we had none. They created a place for us to exchange ideas with many who were unable to come forward. Many people who must remain behind the scenes have given time, advice, knowledge, and informaton, to help tame the river.

    We have miles to go before we sleep.

  28. MWB has ideas that some people take to be quite radical. The idea of open borders scares most people.

    I actually didn’t think MWB was aspiring to completely open borders myself, but I guess I am wrong. Most of them DO want truly open borders. Okay. They are allowed to want that.

    I’m having a similar discussion on Citizen Tom about what Henryk Kowalczyk calls the “Freedom of Migration Act.” Here is my response, and it applies to open boarders as well.

    Henryk asks who is the lady in the video here on Anti. Henryk also asks:

    “Why our country is not ready for the freedom of migration? Are there any other freedoms that our country is not ready for? For whom it will be to decide that our country is ready for freedom?”

    kgotthardt // July 26, 2008 at 8:00 pm

    I think psychologically and intellectually, most people can’t handle the concept. It is too different from what we have now and people find change, especially drastic change, difficult. That’s why it took so long (and continues to take time) for certain minority groups to really be treated as equals even after all this time. Society doesn’t follow the sciences. You can’t give society an equation and say, “Here. It’s logical. Accept it.” People often are not logical because first, they are people, and second they are fearful. Change is scary.

    Only we (the people) can decide when we are ready, and we do that by the vote. You have already acknowledged you hold an unpopular opinion. So you know you have an uphill battle, so to speak.

    Strategically speaking, if you want FMA to become more acceptable, you have to start small–make changes that will lead you in the right direction. But trying to go from what we have right now immediately to FMA is like asking a baby to be born as soon as it is conceived.

    (And no, the woman speaking in that video isn’t me. That’s Elena, one of the Admin. people on Anti-bvbl. She’s a kind of Wonder Woman.)

    http://citizentom.wordpress.com/2008/07/22/the-debate-continues-is-there-an-immigration-problem/#comment-13777

  29. Annabel and Eric should be given an award for their films.

    Alanna and Elena should be given citizenship awards.

    Frank Principi should be given “The Brave BOCS Member” award.

    Anyone else want to add to the awards ceremony? 🙂

  30. Chris

    Eric & Annabel,

    You both are to be commended for your efforts. I thought you really shed some light on what’s really been going on in our county. I really hope my family gets an chance to see the movie. I would also love to hear that each and EVERY Supervisor has seen this movie.

    I am very serious about doing a ride along with Neighborhood Services. This department has improved drastically over the last year. They are one of the greasest tools we have to address and fix the quality of life issues which effect each and every one of living in the county.

    I thought your comments were fair Friday and posted above. You did NOT do anything to perpetuate a two-sided conflict. One side refused to talked to you basically, and others were of a belief that you two were biased based on others’ opinions. I think that’s a big problem right now in the county. We as individuals need to do our own homework better, and quit relying on the same sources all the time.

    After discussing the evening with my husband Friday night. I was left asking myself “would things be different today if ALL had been willing to share their story with Eric & Annabel”? I will tell you both I’m sorry I refused to talk with you all. I know early on you reached out to talk to me through others. You’ve both reached out over the last couple of months directly with me, and I still haven’t sat down with you all. You know I’ve been sitting on the fence the last couple of weeks. Well, after seeing the movie “with my own two eyes” it’s got me thinking even more about the past year. I had perception of you, and it was not reality. I will tell you this I now have MY OWN perception of you, and it is reality. Mostly because I have been doing my own homework.
    We must never forget “perception is reality”, right? 😉

    Thanks for sharing your movie with the community.

  31. Chris,

    I am very serious about doing a ride along with Neighborhood Services. This department has improved drastically over the last year. They are one of the greasest tools we have to address and fix the quality of life issues which effect each and every one of living in the county.

    Who decides what is quality of life? The ethnic majority? If so, that’s wrong and should not be allowed.

    As long as someone’s behavior isn’t damaging your property shouldn’t they be free to do whatever they want on their property?

    If they are damaging your property, I think the proper course is to take them to court.

  32. Chris

    Mackie,
    That’s your opinion and your entitled to it. I will tell you this when someone has huge piles of debris ranging from trash to building materials attracting rats. Those rats travel through others yards. Yes, that does effect my property when it’s a cut through. Remember people do have pets and more importantly children this is not healthy. Maybe you’d be comfortable living like that, but I think it’s safe to say most do NOT.

    You seem to think that Zoning takes every person to court. Their county ordinances in place for a good reason. They can contact the owners or occupants and let them know what needs to be taken care of that’s in violation. Very few cases actually see a court room.

    How dare you ask me to “who decides what is quality of life?” I clearly stated it effects ALL who reside in the county. BTW- do you even live in PWC?. If you don’t live here then our rules do not effect you.

  33. Chris

    I’m no fan of youtube. However, this is an amazing clip.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btuxO-C2IzE

  34. Chris,

    ‘Quality of life’ is a catchall phrase that can easily be abused by the cultural majority to unjustifiably impose their standards on the cultural minority. It’s not right. It’s not fair.

    I feel that if you can’t take your neighbor to court for what they are doing then you have no case. If you can’t convince a judge that something is wrong, then you really haven’t been wronged. I disagree with the idea of having some annoying bureaucrats running around telling everyone how to live their lives. I don’t want my tax dollars to go towards paying to have myself harassed.

    When it comes to your rat scenario, I would suggest carefully and respectfully talking to the neighbor. If that doesn’t work I would suggest acquiring proof and taking the offenders to court.

  35. Chris

    Mackie,

    The problems have been resolved, and yes I did speak to these neighbors and so did many others. Again, NOT everybody gets taken to court. I am not a “sue happy” individual like so many we read about two local blogs. The courts are already overloaded with real crimes. That’s the last thing our judges need to be hearing is a bunch of “blogger cry babies”. Contacting the county is not taking your neighbor to court. Why can’t you understand that? That never mind, it’s of no real relevance to me.

    You think rats in neighborhoods are ok, yet you don’t think dogs should be at the polls. That doesn’t add up. The rats DON’T belong in neighborhoods, and dogs DON’T belong at the polls. I will not rehash the negative things I was seeing. I am trying to focus on the positives.

    Do you live in PWC? Or Manassas or Manassas Park? If you don’t why do you give a rat’s a$$ about the PWC Zoning laws?

    Mackie you and Red Dawn love to post the youtubes. Did you look at that one I posted?

    Have a nice day.

  36. Chris

    Mackie,
    I’ve seen this horrible article and even commented on it yesterday. No HUMAN BEING should ever be a murder vicitim.


  37. FAIR Family Tree: New tool to help understand anti-immigrant networks in the United States

    http://campaignforaunitedamerica.org/index.php?/about/updates/fair_map/

  38. This is an amazing interview with an eye-witness of the beating murder of the immigrant in Pennsylvania:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpe3ayKYwyY

    True to form, the racist police cuffed and searched the Latino victims looking for something to convict them of a crime. When told the names of the white perpetrators and which direction they fled, the police refused to search for them.

    This is exactly why Latinos across the country need to start exercising their right to keep and bear arms wherever they still have this freedom. Not just for their own defense, but for the defense of the millions of unarmed immigrants who have no means of protection beyond their bare hands.

    Of course, we all know what the police will do when they see Latinos openly carrying arms to protect their right to live.

    The racist burrough manager immediately goes on record to defend the murdering teenagers:

    Despite the witness statements, Borough Manager Joseph Palubinsky said he doesn’t believe Ramirez’s ethnicity was what prompted the fight: “I have reason to know the kids who were involved, the families who were involved, and I’ve never known them to harbor this type of feeling.”

  39. Censored bybvbl

    Mackie, I’m not sure that the average person has the skills to pursue a lawsuit, even in small claims court (or whatever it’s called in Virginia). I think most people talk to neighbors before involving the county or city police or Neighborhood Services. Some homeowners/renters don’t give a damn about how their properties affect their neighbors. Most people do care but some absolutely don’t.

    The regulations/laws are on the books so why not employ them? Why should I spend my money and time in court because my neighbor has eight untagged cars in various states of repair on his front lawn and is operating a used car lot in a residential area? There are ordinances that the county will enforce against that behavior. The time to influence those regulations/laws is at the time they’re enacted…or work to get them repealed. What I don’t approve of is using any of these ordinances solely to harass neighbors – like the bigot on the dark side who bragged about continually calling the police on his Hispanic neighbor in an attempt to drive the guy out of the neighborhood. The regulations should be a way of separating the bigots’ trumped up complaints from some neighborhood problem that can be legitimately addressed.

    Sometimes going to court might be more effective if your documentation is better than that of the police who are not going to be around your house 24/7. Usually a legitimate complaint will involve more than one neighbor and not be nitpicky.

  40. “I feel that if you can’t take your neighbor to court for what they are doing then you have no case. If you can’t convince a judge that something is wrong, then you really haven’t been wronged. ”

    I feel if you can’t work it out between yourselves, you should go to mediation….you know, that program that was originally supposed to be cut, the one that helps keep people out of court?

    http://www.pwcgov.org/default.aspx?topic=04005200257

  41. Chris

    k-
    Let’s not forget ODR was on the “chopping block” earlier this year. Wally and Marty each gave $10,000 each to keep it going another two months.

    I don’t think zoning issue escalate to that level. I don’t think all aware of all the ordinances. I have delivered many information booklets from the county with important information and ideas for making your neighborhood even better. This booklet is in both English and Spanish. It clearly lays out the rules for the most common offenses

  42. Moon-howler

    The problems in western Prince William County in the suburbs have been so severe that you would go broke taking all of them to court, even if you could track down the rightful owners. There are many absentee landlords and there are tenents who do not care about the property they live in.

    When you live around others there have to be community standards. As Censored states, you need to challenge the ordinance and point out why it is wrong for everyone. Prince William County allows residents to apply for a variance when they have a sound reason not to comply with the community standards. Seems fair enough to me.

    If I were as strongly libertarian as you are about property rights, Mackie, I would go live on top of a mountain or in the desert where no one but the rattlers would mess with you. The rest of us will just deal with PCE. I wouldn’t give some lawyer the money to go settle rat issues when there is a county vehicle in place to address the problem.

  43. Moon-howler

    Katherine and Chris, I would like to see Marty and Wally added to the list of award recipients. Good job at remembering those contributions, Chris. That is a big bite out of their discretionary funds. Who else contributed? I seem to recall others.

  44. Mackie, you deserve a response to the hate killing in Pennsylvania. Too often, events like this are used to create still more violence and more hate, so while I am angry, I hesistate to assign blame to anyone other than the young men who committed this crime. If we do accept the premise that all life is sacred, and that no human life is worth more or less than any other human life, we have to look at this as a tragedy for these families, this town, and for our country. We have to think in terms of how to avoid such tragedies recurring.

    Certainly, charging these young men as adults and charging them for a hate crime on top of murder is a necessary step.

    It might not be necessary to accuse the police of not doing their best to solve the crime or the D.A. to bring charges swiftly. I am rather disgusted that they cuffed and searched the witness, and wonder if they would have done so if he were not a male Hispanic.

    But my feeling is that the only “bad guy” we can blame for this is the current climate in American that is breeding hate between races. I feel certain that those partisans who selected the immigration “issue” as their salvation in 2007 (in Virginia) and in 2008 nationally must have known that events like this would be the inevitable result.

    The Anti-Immigrant Lobby sees Prince William County as a laboratory, one they would like to export to places all over the country. We’ve already had an apparently racially motivated murder here, as you may know. And I fear that if PWC 2007 were to be multiplied all over the country for the 2008 election, similar crimes would become commonplace.

    I feel like most people take Lou Dobbs and Fox News with a grain of salt, knowing that hate-mongering is a political ploy that exaggerates reality to get a desired result. Also, I think that most people who have cable television are of an education and economic level that they are less likely to come into contact with the folks who are currently being accused of being “illegal” (Hispanic immigrants who are struggling economically).

    Thus, as dangerous and deleterous as Lou Dobbs style “reporting” is to our country, I feel like the Anti-Immigrant agenda at the local level is even more dangerous. Because the hate infection hits us from all sides, not just thorugh our boob tube.

    I have no idea what drove those young men to kill a man because he was Hispanic. I think it is likely that the climate of hate that has been created for this election season is partly to blame.

    The proactive thing to do in this situation is to try to lessen the climate of hate. And there is something we can do in that regard, and that is not add to the flames caused by this racially motivated murder and start “hitting back” with language meant to attack certain people or certain professions.

    The one profession we should look at in my opinion is that of politicians, political strategists posing as jouralists such as Dobbs, and professional lobbiests such as F.A.I.R. and its Anti-Immigrant network. We should look at them because we are the voters, and we are charged with decided whether to encourage them or discourage them at the polls.

    My feeling is that everywhere the Anti-Immigrant Lobby is supporting a candidate for elected office, true Americans should stand against them. The tragedies that unfold in places infected by anti-immigrant hate should not inspire us to hate in return, but to take action against the root cause. Do more than just vote, get involved, and try to defeat the Anti-Immigrant Lobby before it spreads.

  45. Chris

    MH,
    Wally & Marty were the only two. I think they were the only ones with any real money left that late in fiscal year. I can’t say it would’ve been any different if early in the year. All need to remember $400,000 is nice chunk of change for “discretionary funds”. I’ve thanked them both for their support of the ODR. I believe the Clerk of the Court is who set that up for the chopping block simply because it was not mandated. Does anyone remember? I will try to look back at BOS agendas.

  46. Tenacious

    At the risk of beating a dead horse I have to ask what is so atrocious about the name Mexicans Without Borders? I have read this several times on the blog and I just don’t get it? Would a group named Canadians Without Borders or Brits Without Borders or even Doctors Without Borders cause the same reaction? You see what I am getting at?

  47. Juturna

    Mackie
    Quality of life is determined by the financial gain or loss of property value. For some this is their largest and only investment.
    For those that can afford to live on philosophy alone it is easy to be disdainful or challenge these norms. For those that are trying to make a nice life its important. For the greedy it is irrelavent.
    Most are in the middle.

  48. Marie

    On a side note. Let us not forget there are many other immigrants in our community and in the country who are not documented. We should not exclude from our conversations that many ethnic groups have been effected by the actions of our local politians and the Lou Dobbs’ of the world. There are many Asian, European, Australian, Canadian, African and Middle Eastern immigrants here without papers. It is unfortunate that all the finger was pointed at any group but most of the finger pointing has been directed at the Hispanic/Latino population. I believe anyone here who is an immigrant is fearful with or without papers. Like I said before the changes will come when we begin to embrace and welcome them all.

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