Great article in the Washington Post concerning the new Virginia requirement and its comparison to Prince William.
Under the state law, local jails probably will spend a fraction of the $10.5 million Prince Willliam has budgeted over the next five years for the ICE partnership.
ICE cannot say how many illegal immigrants from a particular jurisdiction are being deported, only that it cannot remove as many as it would like because of budget limitations. So there are no statistics about what ultimately happens to the illegal immigrants who are reported to ICE — either by way of the new state law or through the federal program, which trains local officers to identify and detain undocumented suspects charged with crimes.
We still have more in PWC – Rule Of Law gives officers the right to arrest someone if they’re found, say, driving without a license rather than letting them go and pretending they’ll show up in court.
It basically creates the fear that SHOULD EXIST in illegals about driving on our roads.
Rick, would you be comfortable with everyone driving without a license being arrested?
Moon-howler, yes I think that would be good.
Rick,
I don’t have a problem with that either. Unlicensed drivers cost the American public a fortune. Now, is that a law? I don’t know.
Actually, anyone driving without a license, legal or illegal, can be physically arrested and taken before a Magistrate if the officer on the scene feels they will disregard the summons or can’t positively ID the person. Example, if the person had been charged with the same offense before or if they have no valid ID on them etc.
This legislation is much weaker than the 287(G) program. It simply requires the jails throughout the State to notify ICE when they have an illegal alien in custody. In all probability ICE will run the names and see who they are, if they are even in their system or not. If they have failed to appear for a deportation hearing or have been deported before, ICE will look very very close at them and probably express an interest in them.
It’s something, it’s progress, but we need more from our government.
We need some public officials who are willing to push things hard. Willing to try to embarass the Bush Administration.
Someone who will say, hey, we’re not going to let illegal aliens in our school unless you the federal government are going to pick up the bill. And certainly no ESOL classes.
Lucky Ducky,
If the police stop you walking on the street or in a car and they can’t articulate probable cause for stopping you, do you have the right to refuse to give them your name and your ID until they can articulate probable cause?
Rick, let’s think about what you just said for a minute. Why on earth would you want to do away with ESOL classes? One the one hand there is all this grousing and complaining, not necessarily from you of course, over foreigners not assimilating and not speaking English. Others complain that there are signs in Spanish or other languages, depending on where one is.
You understand that ESOL is a crash course in English for kids, don’t you? It is only intense for like the first 2 years, then it gradually tapers off.
The federal government is famous for unfunded mandates, especially in the field of education. One of the reasons ESOL is so structured is because it supplements the federal No Child Left Behind mandate. ESOL has been around a long time and has gone through many names.
Rick, I forgot to mention to you….you don’t tell the feds what you suggest. The response comes back in the form of ‘you and whose army’ …..Supreme Court decision. Also, why would you want any children running around illiterate. That is bound to cause you problems down the road.
“Rick Bentley, 28. July 2008, 13:21
“If we want people to assimilate, we must let them do so.”
“Not on my tax dollars.”
“They” and I pay taxes as well.
And remember, ESL is just another type of English. We have ESL students who do better in English than traditional students!
But enough on ESL. I don’t want to hijack.
Mackie, if you are pulled over in a car, the police must have a reasonable suspicion or probable cause for doing so. Probable Cause is needed to issue a summons though, reasonable suspicion won’t do for that. If you are walking and asked for ID, the same standard applies. If you refuse to give your name, in Prince William, you are ok, unless the officer has reasonable suspicion or probable cause which is usually shared by the officer pretty quick to get the ID. Some Counties, Cities and Towns have a statute on the books for identification, Prince William does not.
If you are pulled over and asked for your license, you are better off giving your license and then ask the reason for the stop. The officer should, at some point, tell you why you were pulled over. If you’re walking, its not as complicated for the officer and its easier to ask the reason and refuse if there is no reasonable suspicion or Probable Cause. If you refuse when you’ve been driving, you’d better be sure everything is perfect on your car and you have committed no offenses as driving is not a right as the Supreme Court has ruled, its a privledge. Walking around is of course, is a right, in most cases (trespassing etc.). But if the officer has Reasonable suspicion or Probable Cause, they eventually can demand ID. It makes it a whole lot easier if they explain why to you and you can ask.
Lucky Ducky,
Are we within our rights to refuse to give our license UNTIL he can articulate his probable cause?
Isn’t the officer required by law to immediately tell us the reason for the stop as soon as we ask? Isn’t he in the wrong if he refuses to tell us why he stopped us when asked?
No, the officer is not required by any legal statute to tell why you were stopped but it just makes sense to do so and eliminates any argument before it starts. You cannot withhold your license if you are driving on the highways of Virginia, you are required to show your license to the officer if you are stopped. Of course, they have to have PC or reasonable suspicion to stop you. If you feel they did not have the PC or suspicions, you are entitled to ask at any time and hopefully they will and should tell you. If not, ,you are free to file a complain afterwards. But you risk escalating the stop if you are driving and refuse to show your license. You’ll wind up in front of a Magistrate with a bond hearing and having your car towed.
Most, if not all officers, will tell you why you were stopped at some point. It just eliminates the exact argument you mentioned. But there is no legal requirement for them to do so as soon as you ask. In fact, if you receive a traffic summons, it will have the offense/reason written out for you but it should not go that far without you knowing, but it legally is permitted.
Lucky Ducky,
In the following video a BP agent forcibly opens a persons car door against the individual’s will at frame 6:44 and then he forcibly pulls the person out of the car against the individual’s will at frame 9:38.
The whole time this BP agent cannot articulate a reason to conduct a search of this person even though asked repeatedly asked to do so. The whole time the individual forced out of the car clearly articulates that he does not agree to being removed from the car and searched.
The BP agent tries to get away with using force by asking the person ‘Please step out of the car’ WHILE he is simultaneously forcing the guy out of the car. As if asking this question will nullify the fact that he is physically forcing this individual to submit to an illegal search and seizure.
Isn’t the BP agent violating the 4th amendment rights of this individual?
Did not this individual have the right to resist this illegal search and seizure?
Here’s the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrFRObbSDDo
Gee maybe BoS would like to process tax returns at local expense to help the FEDs as well.
I would like to second Alanna’s question:
“* Concerned about the foreign born component regardless of immigration status, what are we looking for here? Is it only immigration status or are we collecting this information for some other purpose?”
I still cannot help but to think this immigration debate is nothing but a distraction, otherwise we would NOT be where we are today. Where are we today?????? Left with a lot of questions!
Immigrants that have become citizens can be deported for various reasons namely a henious crime. They might consider it welcome as opposed to the dealth penalty.
As was stated at the beginning of PWC’s foray into federal territory immigration law is complex. Or my favourite observation- how many times have you known the feds to relinquish authority? Guess they were smart and hung a pork chop around the neck of 287(g).
How do we know that if we arr getting our moneys worth by preparing reports? Beginning to sound like The Emporer’s New Clothes to me
“In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way.”
Franklin Delano Roosevelt
LOL, SOOOOOOOOO who do we ask for the truth?
sorry, couldn’t RESIST 😉
Why isn’t my vid post going through?
Red Dawn,
Good question. They like to tell us we can’t handle the truth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j2F4VcBmeo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocLZ7S69QQU&feature=related
Mackie,
10 fingers and toes up to Jack…the man is talented and stands alone 🙂
This is beginning to sound like a cross between Lucky Luciano and the Xfiles.
I want to believe. The Truth is out there.
Lucky Luciano was paroled on the condition he deport.
Katherine, I don’t know. It just does that. Email Alanna.
Mackie, I am well aware of your anti checkpoint views, even though the Supreme Court has rule repeatedly that they are permissible with guidelines. Many local departments have used them for years and have set up guidelines that meet the Court requirements. They have been ruled as a legal tactic and I don’t mind a few minutes for the safety of everyone on the road.
Your statement of the BP Agent failing to articulate a reason for the subject to step out of the car I disagree with completely. I stopped counting at 8 or 9 times where the BP agent told the person that they failed to follow directions at the checkpoint and attempted to evade being waved over. You and I cannot see that point so we’ll leave it alone but the subject did say that it was a “misunderstanding” that they missed the other BP agent’s signal. So the BP agent has reasonble suspicion about the vehicle’s action.
The BP agent also informed the subject no less than a dozen times that if he didn’t step out of the vehicle, he would be removed. That is permissible as he has reasonable suspicion to check the occupants based upon the agreed upon point that they did not correctly stop at the checkpoint. The subject has refused numerous times to present identification.
The BP Agent asked/told the subject and ungodly amount of times to step out of the car and when he finally pulled him out he was still talking to him about coming out.
From reading your already stated opinion, nothing I say or write will change your opinion on the actions of the BP or vehicle checkpoints. So I will ask you, based upon the legality of the checkpoints – they are allowed and the vehicle admittedly did something suspicious at the checkpoint, what would you expect the agent to do, just walk away after having reasonable suspicion? We’ll probably wind up disagreeing, but that is my opinion for what its worth.
Mackie,
I was glad YOU asked ( 😉 I wanted to know too ) and I have to agree with Lucky Duck as his observation of the video was the same as mine.
I also QUESTIONED what happened at the stop-(misunderstanding,etc., NOT caught on film BUT he( camera guy) even stated it himself that there was room for misunderstanding) So what other alternative for him to take him or walk away? It works both ways 🙂 I am satisfied that this was within reason 🙂
While I wait for my post of the total cost of illegal immigration to get though moderation (due to the links posted with it as data sources), I just want to remind everyone (no-one in particular) that the cost of continued illegal immigration is far larger than the total cost of deportation and law enforcement. By credible estimates as explained in my post in moderation is a whopping $ 338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR.
Are we THAT stupid?
As I said before the proper answer is to check EVERYONE for legal status (literally every person) at ANY encounter with the police. The concern for getting caught and deported will be high enough to cause MOST of the 12-20 million illegal immigrant community to leave of their own free will saving us BILLIONS of dollars.
Nothing else in the past has ever worked other than strict law enforcement, and nothing other than this in the future will even make a dent in the uncontrolled growth of “illegal” immigration and the uncontrollable costs to the nation as a result of it.
I too agree with lucky duck, his reasoning is sound on this, which is why I support the law enforcement solution above all others proposed (on everyone the same, and everyone the police encounter) as the only one that is effective in reducing uncontrolled growth of “illegal” immigration, and its associated costs to us and our communities in hundreds of widely documented ways.
That is not a radical hateful position it is a realistic reality position.
Michael,
I would like to ask you what your thoughts are due to the lack of border/immigration control for decades that has led us to such things as The Patriot Act, the wire tapping , etc ( not sure of the bill name) to something else that just recently passed, to THIS article and WTF?
What laws do you want to enforce, that we ALREADY had on our books to do so? What other liberties do you want to loose?
Michael, I guess you aren’t a rule of law kind of guy? You just can’t make up laws to suit what you think.
By the way, no disrespect with WTF? IT just seems ( as seen in the thread) every time you turn around, they tack on a NEW…wtf, that was NOT already taken care of 🙂
Michael, 28. July 2008, 21:01
While I wait for my post of the total cost of illegal immigration to get though moderation (due to the links posted with it as data sources), I just want to remind everyone (no-one in particular) that the cost of continued illegal immigration is far larger than the total cost of deportation and law enforcement. By credible estimates as explained in my post in moderation is a whopping $ 338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR.
Agreed – the cost to deport, according to Ted Kennedy in his testimony to Congress, would be $41 billion per year over 5 years to deport all 10 million people. Compare this to Los Angeles, which along spends $2 billion per year on welfare, education and health care for people that are here illegally. An even more conservative cost per year is $70 billion nationwide for welfare, education and health care for illegal immigrants. So – $41 billion lost but $70 billion saved – comes out to +$29 billion. And we’re LOSING money? Don’t think so –
We have had border control for decades. It just hasn’t been adequate.
“Man is not free unless government is limited. There’s a clear cause and effect here that is as neat and predictable as a law of physics: As government expands, liberty contracts.”
Ronald W. Reagan
Moon-howler,
“We have had border control for decades. It just hasn’t been adequate.”
Yes, we have. Or not enforced?
I think some of you are missing the point of the state law. It states that any person arrested (regardless of race, gender, religion or ethnic group) will be questioned about their foreign born status, and their “legal” status. EVERYONE will be questioned. If determined in this status check to be “illegal”, they will then go into a national crime center database.
Since “illegal” immigration is governed by a “federal” statute, it is a basis to create a national crime database to DEPORT these “Illegal” immigrants so identified at whatever funding resource and rate we can afford to deport them. In the future we will likely deputize, other federal, state and local law enforcement resources to assist ICE in the same way we can “deputize” with the same restrictions of “posse comitatus” military and government resources to help and assist ATF officers to do drug interdictions.
This is a serious national problem, a threat to our very democratic existance and our legal system in the future if we cannot and will not stop it now. You have only to look at the ethnic class wars in other nations to see the direction and impact “uncontrolled” illegal immigration will have on our nation.
Some of you on this blog are already involved in radical resistance to law and law enforcement, preferring lawlessness and anarchy to democracy and lawfulness.
NGL wants to invite them all back. While we’re at it lets throw a party for MS-13, and give them a couple cases of spray paint to show there’s no hard feelings. I can’t wait until the only problem in PWC is the overcrowding at the 7-11 parking lots! Ah yes, it would be heaven on earth!
“Some of you on this blog are already involved in radical resistance to law and law enforcement, preferring lawlessness and anarchy to democracy and lawfulness.”
I would like to know if you consider me on this “roll call”?
I am in NO way advocating lawlessness/anarchy. I am simply ASKING a question of WHY.
Why are we now in the position that we have The patriot Act., etc ( help me out Mackie, lol 🙂 or hell- Awcheney, other people that are starting to ask QUESTIONS )while due to the inaction/enforcement of our already EXISTING laws are stuck right here, right now…asking questions :)?
Red-Dawn, I do not believe we are losing liberties, when we enforce existing law. We have a situation where pwoplw have expected “liberties” and “freedom from the law” they have never had in the entire history of our constitution. Because law enforcement of existing law was not enforced, people assumed incorrectly this was a “liberty and right” when it has never been.
Wire-tapping has always been allowed with a warrent and under the jurisdiction of the CIA to deal with foreign espionage. 9-11 is foreign espionage, and “illegal” immigration has proven that many “illegals” are foreign espionage elements. Finding them with wire tapping and coopration from the phone companies has kept us from having more bombs exploded in our subways, our federal and commercial buildings and has prevented much “imposible to measure” future death of everyday citizens.
If you can trust our military to do what is right, to protect us overseas, then you cab trust our federal agents (HS, ATF, ICE, CIA, FBI and DIA) to do what is right and LEGAL with these laws to protect us.
You are not giving up any liberty, you are gaining individual security, THAT NO OTHER NATION involved with ethnic, and religious class wars, and with terrorist war with the United States has yet shown protection from. That is why you have significant terrorist incidents in other nations of the world and not the US.
Only CRIMINALS, gangsters, mafia bosses, and terrorists have anything to fear from these wiretapping laws.
If you can trust a soldier to carry and use a gun lawfully, and not shoot innocent civilians at ALL COST (except to protect himself using strict ROE) you can trust that same soldier to carry and use a wiretap lawfully to find and kill those same combatants.
Terrorists are legal combatants. Illegal immigrants are lawbreakers, that need to be punished by the existing law we have always had.
“Why on earth would you want to do away with ESOL classes?”
Because – they are encouraging continued illegal immigration. For now, make it clear to any child’s parents that they will be responsible for this burden, not the taxpayers. People shouldn’t be immigrating here unless they are fluent in English – never, under any circumstance. Unlike Barack Obama, I don’t think family members should be let in for reunification. Especially if they don’t speak English.
Let’s get pragmatic about use of our tax dollars and use America’s resources to help Americans. Our charity and good will have created a crisis situation and we need to dig our way out of it if we want to maintain our way of life. Hospitals are closing, schools disintegrating, wages stagnating so don’t tell me it’s not a crisis.
Rick, the CIA often gets useful info from informants who then have a target painted on their backs if they stay in their homelands. We owe them a debt. They can learn English later.
We are beginning to lose our shirt in the global economy, and adding millions of uneducated adults to the nation isn’t going to help. Soon half the people in this country will in some way be supporting the other half.
I noticed a new used car lot on Rt28 flying a big green, white, and red banner publicizing in Spanish that Spanish is spoken there. How nice that they are helping NGL bring back those industrious folks who can’t speak English.
What do you think a “war on terror” and a “war on illegal” immigrants is? In the first case it is a legal combatant war to stop terrorist and foreign militants from destroying democracy in our nation, when they CLEARLY intend to do so with internal infiltration of our society. In the second case it is a legal law enforcement campaign to stop people from “illegally” entring our country at alarming rates, and to deport those who are already here “illegally” from creating even more havoc and destruction on our socvety than they already have with their “non-remorseful” unlawful bahavior.
Our nation can only be a stable and safe DEMOCRACY, when we can enforce individual law on everyone the same, have a one person, one vote, uncorrupted legal system (now under attack by illegal immigrant subversive elements) and a “controlled and legal” influx of ONLY “legal” people into the country. Fighting either of these legal and just democratic laws and concepts is national subversion and undermining of national security by subversive and corrupt militant propoganda and lawless ideology destructive to the very concept of DEMOCRACY.
I DON’T know Michael, just asking questions….
NOTE: 2:00 ( of course watch the whole thing)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIOSAkX4pfY
“We owe them a debt. ”
Not citizenship. I don’t think our government should be giving that away. I particularly resent the way they pick and choose countries like El Salvador to grant bogus “protected status” to, for reasons of their own that they are not held accountable for.
Red Dawn, I think one way for you to lose your fear of “big brother” is to join the military and take a tour to one of the countries having ethnic and religious class wars (Iraq, Iran, Afganistan, Korea, China, Columbia, Peru, El Salvador, Phillipines, Malaysia, Somilia, Chad, Niger, etc) and see how your military training will teach you to be one of the most ETHICAL and JUST people in the nation, and give you a heavy dose of reality regarding the UNETHICAL and Malicious nature of many of the nation’s people who are now here in our country “illegally” who came from countries who are neck deep in law enforcement corruption, political corruption, ethnic and religious class wars. See how corrupt their government, judges, and police are and then come back and tell me you are still afraid of our law US enforcement tools, designed to protect all of us from people who are like all of them.
You begin to understand what DEMOCRACY, ETHICS, LAW and CHARACTER really mean.
You will not get this from the general public, or anyone on this blog who is heavily involved in fear and ethnic radicalism with a real desrie to undermine our legal system, promote anarchy, lawlessness and undermine DEMOCRACY as they put their own criminal element people into local and state government positions. This “illegal” growth will eventually corrupt the entire legal system in the same way it has been in these ethnic and religious class warring nations.
Michael,
“Red Dawn, I think one way for you to lose your fear of “big brother” is to join the military and take a tour to one of the countries having ethnic and religious class wars”
TRUST me, I thought about it, to see it for myself BUT I am too CHICKEN SHIT.
No disrespect to the ONES that put their lives and families on hold for me to type this to you with NO disrespect. I would just question, that it all comes down to commands, do what you are told..what do THEY ( active military know, right NOW, as things are exchanged in Congress?)and IF they could speak, what would they really say?