Greg L said on 19 Aug 2008 at 12:37 am:
Monticup, I understand your frustration and outrage, but try to refrain from characterizing all illegal aliens as nascent criminals. Some are, but it would appear that they’re a pretty small minority. With somewhere around 12 million illegal aliens in the US by conservative estimates, if they were all predisposed to criminal behavior we’d be far worse off than we are. There are about 300,000 illegal aliens in Virginia, and we certainly don’t have a crime explosion that such numbers would create.

A big problem however is that of those 300,000 we have no idea who they are. Among them are certainly some of the worst folks you could imagine from both a crime and a national security perspective. In order to ensure these bad actors aren’t present, the lawful deportation of as many illegal aliens as possible is a way to ensure we remove those who pose the most significant threat as well as (perhaps more significantly) discourage other bad actors from unlawfully entering the country.

If we cannot control our borders, we are no longer a sovereign nation, and our democracy is in grave peril. As we seek to do so, we have to be certain that what we ask for is reasoned and responsible. We can’t do that very well by saying all illegal aliens are invariably rapists and murderers without undermining our arguments. There’s enough provable and unambiguous data out there to support our arguments without stretching so much, and in ways that can become counterproductive.

We have to maintain a higher standard than anyone else, and while it might not be fair, that’s just how it is. Let’s do our best to be better than those arguing the other side.

Acutally, it’s almost refreshing to see Mr. Leteicq make this kind of statement. It’s in sharp contrast to his infamous ‘Dog for Sale’ thread. Apparently he is coming to the realization that in order to be considered a rational voice in the immigration debate he can no longer permit the previously employed rhetoric and mischaracterizations of all ‘illegals’ as being rapists, murderers etc… To what extent this transformation is a result of our efforts might never be known but I feel confident that we have contributed to forming the terms of this discussion. Congratulations to everyone for their continued participation.

134 Thoughts to “BVBL Strives for High Standard?”

  1. Robb Pearson

    And let’s all remember, per the famous Greg Letiecq video (click here to view), that Greg Letiecq’s moments of rationality include such touching expressions as “not only do we want to send them back, but we want to send them back with love.”

  2. Madam Mofo

    I agree with Robb Pearson. Don’t be fooled into thinking there was some sort of change of heart. He probably got a memo from F.A.I.R. suggesting a kinder, gentler stance for some political motive. Has anyone ever seen Monticup? If not, perhaps Juturna is right on the money.

  3. Chris

    Robb,
    I agree with you “brief moment of rationality”. This is only to keep the troops in check. It’ll be the same ole song and dance before we know it.

  4. dolph

    You can get beaten up by agreeing with someone. And don’t dare talk back to one of the boss girls. Chris, the smart troops are no longer troops. Some people just don’t stay in check well, do they?

    Speaking of good old Alt-med, I see the grass has been mowed finally. Now where is that sand blaster?

  5. Chris

    dolph,
    Right you are. And don’t dare speak to one about their words to one that was agreeing with the graffiti. Then the whole damn comment gets DELETED! Well, deleted from there maybe, but NOT here.

  6. Censored bybvbl

    A google search of “monticup” reveals a Charlottesville magic shop – perhaps a hint there’s a sleight of hand…er, typing fingers.

  7. NotGregLetiecq

    Okay. So Greg created “Monticup” to make himself look “sane” at the expense of his readers and blog posters? That’s not very nice. Not very honest either. If I were one of his followers (God help me for even mentioning the idea!) I would not appreciate being “thrown under the bus” in this way.

    That man’s got nerve! He makes up a character, writes something vile, and this is supposed to reflect poorly on the average BVBL poster but not on Gospel Greg himself who is quick to supply the voice of reason?????

    For the first time, I feel sympathy for his followers.

  8. Juturna

    There are more persona’s than Monticup. I firmly believe they are here on anti as well. The guy is an absolute lunatic. “Send them back with love” ended any thoughts I had about his credibility immediately.

  9. Censored bybvbl

    Yeah, Juturna, I can think of more suspect IDs. There was the “link” king who said he lived in Independent Hill and saw loiters at Blooms, but was obsessed with every piece of trash on Sudley Manor Drive and attended church over there. There were a couple more dittoheads who could be counted on to back up GL. I think some are still there. What is funny is how there is a hiatus of posts which coincide with Gospel Greg’s absence.

  10. TH

    Talking about people hearing voices, Elvis posted something today in the other blog that tells me that he left us for good…. A sad day for all of us.
    ” I’ve spent too much time over on the “anti” blog and now I’m making my permanent return. it got old speaking with those “people” and finally came to the realization that basically the blog was just a front for them filming fairies that call themselves 9500 liberty. I’m probably even going to sign up for help save Manassas as well”
    I hope he feels that we sent him back with love to a more deserving blog

  11. “I am with you KG. Your voices work for most thinking people. His voices are of the David Koresch, Jim Jones variety.”

    Thanks, Jut. I prefer my own voices as well 🙂

  12. LOL! Let’s send Elvis away with love, shall we?

  13. Juturna

    I have never been a hateful spiteful person. However…… I am learning with Greg that there is real evil in the world. Like anything else, I guess it takes running smack into it to actually believe it. This is something that cannot be medicalized or attributed to a bad mother….

    His agenda is so unlike anything that I was raised to deal with……. for that fact probably most of us fall into that category. Once you see it though its impact is immediate and it does not make you a bad person to say you see it. It is what it is.

  14. “Speaking of good old Alt-med, I see the grass has been mowed finally. Now where is that sand blaster?”

    LOL! Did John Stirrup get out there with his weed whacker?

  15. Juturna

    Ha Ha KG…..

    Remember, Elvis is our reminder of what is bad…..

  16. Yeah, well without him we’d probably forget there is evil in the human heart that we can’t ignore. Perhaps we should thank old Elvis for that.

  17. Juturna

    Exactly. He’s a reminder of the balance of order in the world. Greg wins for most evil. Elivis tries but falls short. A bit.

  18. TH

    We still have Mando, so don’t worry about “those voices”

  19. Juturna

    …and Michael.

  20. Juturna

    Well, now….. looks like Elvis is a goner. I would take the “deaf ears” comment as a compliment. Also looks like HSM membership should almost double if he signs up. Also, would the fairies please stand up?

    Now should we take bets on how long he can stay over there since there is so little action anymore?? Anyone want to find his last post and save it for posterity????? Bet they won’t call him “Tickle Me” over there!!! 🙂

    elvis said on 20 Aug 2008 at 10:09 am:
    Thanks for the warm welcome back!

    I’ve spent too much time over on the “anti” blog and now I’m making my permanent return. it got old speaking with those “people” and finally came to the realization that basically the blog was just a front for them filming fairies that call themselves 9500 liberty. I’m probably even going to sign up for help save Manassas as well.

    anon143 said on 20 Aug 2008 at 10:13 am:
    Elvis! GREAT news!
    I have to say that you had the patience of a saint for staying “over there” as long as you did….I hate to tell you that your comments were falling on deaf ears.

  21. Slither hither

    Thanks for being braving enough to visit bvbl, and report back, Juturna.
    Well, I hope gets the application printed off and hand delivers it to next weeks meeting. Elvis will be one more reason to stay for rational people not to join the ranks of HSM. 😉

  22. Slither hither

    Forgot the woman/man..
    I hope Elvis get the application printed off…

  23. TheTruth

    And once again this blog celebrates driving off people who don’t agree with their agenda. Typical. Their next targets appear to be Mando and Michael. Then they can just have a boring discussion where everyone agrees on everything.

  24. Slither hither

    Evlis is in a different league from those two, el verdad.

  25. Moon-howler

    El Verdad,

    Apparently you missed the rudeness and vulgarity demonstrated by Elvis. I am sure you will not enjoy his insults and nastiness if he finds someone to dislike.

    He was given many chances to debate the issues rather than hurl insults at people. Enjoy! We send him to you with love.

    Since you are interested in the truth, know that it wasn’t the issues but his delivery system. I also don’t believe we have seen the last of Old Tickle Me. I expect he will come back in another form…a reincarnation as it were. Lets hope this next life has better manners.

  26. Juturna

    If there was an agenda it would merit discussion. I don’t consider search and destroy an agenda. More a lifestlye.

  27. Jake the Snake

    Search and destroy and character assassination are the trademarks of cowardice. Those who operate in that mode are generally very good at what they do. They just don’t have many real friends and are often reviled by most of the human race.

    As was seen in Lord of the Flies, there are sycophants who usually enjoy pulling the wings off of flies. These people are generally not those with whom one would like to associate.

  28. Always great to see rationality enter this debate.

  29. TH

    Talking about people disappearing, Do you know what happened to Patriot? Chris or Red Dawn, Do you know?

  30. Michael

    Jutura, that comment was uncalled for. Michael is FAR from evil. You have never read my posts carefully, but built up an image in your own intolerent and bigoted mind based only on what you want to believe, not on the facts of my postings.

    Hi Dolph, good to see you again.

    Diversity Gal, you might try checking to see if your firewall, (if you have one) causes your BVBL posts to be behaving differently on bvbl than here. My posts will sometimes do the same here (not increment a counter, go into poof land, etc), but that is because my firewall is very tight, does not like some of the paypal re-directs, and this blog even has code logic errors in it that my machine will not process due to the java script security settings.

    Elena and Allanna have both been very respectful about my opposing view posts (I do not support “illegal” immigrants, support only legal immigrants, and for that “legal” view, some people (like Jutura, and WHWN) think I am evil, uneducated or uninformed. I’ll put my career and education any day against theirs and I’ll bet they would see me in a much more respectful light. I simply disagree on what is best for America, based on my experiences as an aviator and soldier seeing the rest of the world and the events I see here repeating those failures I’ve seen in the rest of the world to respect and to follow law, integrate races, religions and ethnic groups and prevent political factioning, all of which is critical for peace, prosperity and stability. I have seen first hand what happens when you do not do this, and I am simply warning all of you to avoid it before it is too late. You can call that evil if you want, I call it rational and necessary for survival of the US democracy and national ideology focused primarily on individual rights (As George Mason envisioned when he influenced the BILL of RIGHTS, and James Madison cautioned in the writing of the Constitution to beware of the power of political factions to destroy a national government and nation.

    Most of you here just don’t agree with such concepts, and I think that is very sad for our countries viable financial and political future. I’m doing what I can to change your mind.

  31. Juturna

    Patriot another Greg alias.

  32. Michael

    I might also add Greg L. has also been very respectful of my opposing posts on his blog, It is the radical elements on each blog that are so disrespectful, angry and intolerant. Neither blog owner can control the “negative and false images” created about a person’s character through mis-representation, twisting of facts, un-warrented and malicious character assassination and outright lies to manipulate people’s opinions. I have seen extreme behaviors of this type out of many on both blogs. I have personally not seen this extreme behavior by either Blog’s moderators, only a difference of opinion. Greg opposes “Illegal” immigration, and to my knowledge has never attacked “legal” immigration concepts, although many of the wacko poster’s on his blog have. His only mistake I’ve seen was rely too heavilty on his religious beliefs to guide his decisions to seek political advocacy and influence with his local government. That is what religious people do and that is also what “liberals” intent on destroying “conservatives” will do.

    It is the people in the middle that are the only rational people on either blog or in either party. I have often said we need to get rid of the extreme left in the “Donkey” party, and get rid of the extreme right in the “Elephant” party and we will have a more justly governed nation. We lost the ability for the middle and most rational people in either party to have a poligtical voice, and impact on elections when political action committies and corporate funding of elections, AND appointment rather than ELECTION of people into government and private positions of political power became the norm 20 yeas ago.

  33. Michael

    Jutura, you should more wisely speak with facts, not your emotions. I know from factual information provided by Patriot in many previous posts on BVBL that Patriot is not Greg, and neither is Monticup to my knowledge. Dolph or Red Dawn probably can provide proof of that, as they likely (maybe not) know each of them personally.

  34. Juturna

    So rare to be in the company of such perfection!

    I didn’t intend to call you evil. Apologies. Just over the top.

    Why on earth would you want to challenge educational backgrounds?

  35. Robb Pearson

    I visited the BVBL blog early this afternoon (around 12:45pm) and left a comment under the topic “Another Illegal Alien Murder“, where Greg Letiecq made the comments that are the subject of this particular thread here on anti-BVBL. I’m not certain if first-time posts on BVBL require authorization before publication, but my post has yet to appear. I’ll wait with patience to see if it eventually, if ever, shows up. In the mean time, here’s what I posted there . . .

    A response re: Greg Letiecq’s remarks where he stated, “try to refrain from characterizing all illegal aliens as nascent criminals” . . .

    Among the many Bible passages that certainly many could come up with when conversing over the “immigration issue” (and I recall Mr. Letiecq has shown a fondness for quoting some passages himself), there’s one which is particularly noteworthy in terms of how all of us should regard one another, regardless of our positions in life (social, economic, or otherwise), geographic origin, or nationally determined legal status. It’s Zechariah 7:9-10 . . .

    “Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another. Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, the alien or the poor. In your hearts do not think evil of each other.”

    TRUE justice. MERCY. COMPASSION. Do not oppress the ALIEN or the POOR.

    Albeit those words reside within the confines of the Judeo-Christian religious ethos, they nonetheless possess a universailty that, if authentically put to practice by all people of genuine conscience, would utterly transform the world. And for the better.

    Such is nothing less than the “kingdom of God” model which Jesus of Nazareth introduced and vigorously advanced, and which he sought to be effected WITHIN human society.

    It was that “kingdom of God”, or a new state (or State, perhaps?) of harmonious human coexistence, which not only vanquishes all manner of distinction between peoples (ethnic, socio-economic, etc.) , and which directly rejects and opposes the dominant political and economic systems and mechanisms which continue to perpetuate injustice in our world, but was to be built IN THE PRESENT by those who believed in it. And, irregardless of the Apostle Paul’s opinion, man-made law is ultimately irrelevant (and which Jesus of Nazareth actively opposed), particularly when its dictates are contrary to the Higher plan in the “kingdom of God” on earth . . . or that State of Oneness . . . advocated by Jesus of Nazareth where compassion, mercy, and grace FOR ALL are the sole rule of law.

    Greg Letiecq expressed a truism that not all “illegal aliens” are innately predisposed to committing crimes. But in spite of his rational recognition of that fact, it is nonetheless clear that “illegal aliens” are still tagged as pariahs, modern-day social lepers whom many Americans would prefer be “cast out of our camp”, so to speak.

    And so to such people, including Greg Letiecq, I encourage them to take their cue from Jesus of Nazareth (whom Paul worshiped), follow his example, and put on his ears, eyes, and hands (and heart) and reach out with embracing compassion to “outcasts” as he did (as opposed to casting them away “with love”):

    A man with leprosy came to him and begged him on his knees, “If you are willing, you can make me clean.” Filled with compassion, Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. “I am willing,” he said. “Be clean!” Immediately the leprosy left him and he was cured. (Mark 1:40-42)

    Finally, our neighbor isn’t merely our fellow citizen. Our neighbor is also the “Samaritan”, the non-citizen whom we may despise.

    My reason for making the post, and stating my remarks in “evangelical Christian” biblical parlance, was to attempt to appeal to Greg Letiecq’s conscience in a language and manner he predictably would be inclined to understand. As I thought more about it, it occurred to me that his “brief moment of rationality” was an opportunity. An opportunity to ignite more moments of rationality on his part.

    All in all, my post was a desire to reach out to him and invite him to embrace a more creative, compassionate, merciful, and graceful way of engaging the “immigration issue” and the immigrating people who have been politically objectified as a result of it, and to consider being part of the incredible vision of being part of building a “State of Oneness” where common humanity is the foundation, and (as I’ve stated before) where compassion, mercy, and grace FOR ALL are the sole rule of law.

    When it comes to folks like Greg Letiecq — whom many might despise or consider an enemy — we have choices: (1) villify him, or (2) love him (an “enemy”) by inviting him to more ethical alternatives to the course he has chosen where this “issue” is concerned.

    The choice is ours. We’ll either be combative, or be peacemakers. We’ll either ridicule Greg Letiecq, or see him as we wish him to see others: as human. We’ll either behave toward him the way we wish he would behave toward us, or we won’t.

    At the end of the day, it’s about stepping it up. Not for the sake of competition, but for the sake of setting an example and seeking the better way.

    And I, for one, beleive we can do that. And successfully.

  36. Chris

    TH,
    Hello! I’ve been here, and so has Red Dawn. Where have you been? I gave up on bvbl months ago. Glad you remembered my name I got called out the other night for not always posting on bvbl with Chris. I like Lafayette better than Chris for a name. 😉
    Michael,
    Red Dawn and Dolph can NOT provide that proof your looking for. The Patriot said he attended Greg’s church, and Greg said this too. Yet, when The Patriot was asked about this by Loudoun. He refused to answer. Yet he always attempted to demand an answer. The Patriot is just a figment of some’s imagination.
    Censored,
    Excellent recolection of The Patriot. He dropped off bvbl too, at least as The Patriot. I have a list of those MIA from bvbl, and the funny thing is slowly but surely some are crawling out of the cave.

  37. Michael

    Apology accepted. I don’t want to challenge education backgrounds only the concept that if people oppose you, (i.e oppose “illegal” immigration), some people think maliciously justified to make intolerant comments and make irrational and bigoted comments toward those they oppose, assuming they must not as ‘educated” or “informed” as they believe themselves to be.

    Disrespect, intolerance, bigotry and malice is the usual response I get from people who allow their emotions to control their brains.

  38. Michael

    Good to see you again Lafayette, thanks for providing better clarification on who Greg’s friends are and more facts to ponder. I don’t need proof, it seems others are craving it for negative reasons however. Personally I’ve seen many people refuse to answer for many reasons other than just hiding something.

    I’ve almost always liked your posts on BVBL, respectful and factual. I hope you will make some good ones here that will have a positve impact on the more radical members of this site.

  39. Chris

    Michael,
    I think you should prove to us The Patriot is real. What factual information do have regarding who the real he/she/it Patriot is?

  40. Chris

    Michael,
    Sorry, for jumping the gun on you, there. It must have been the Lafayette in me coming out. 🙂
    Yes, many don’t answer questions and understandably so. However, it’s just odd The Patriot would continue to call those out that didn’t answer his questions.
    I will certainly try to remain respectful. That and name calling is a huge part of what made me decide to leave bvbl. Oh, and having a few comments delted all together. Kind of hard to believe this would happen to two of the three top posters. I mean mine and Dolph’s comments have been deleted. I have them, and have posted them here. For folks to read with their own two eyes.

  41. Michael

    DiversityGal, I also forgot to mention, too many links in your posts, like here on anti-bvbl, can cause your post to enter the spam filter, and will not come out unless the moderator allows it and reviews it, also any language used that hits a filter set to prevent unlawful or potentially slanderous language, can also be automatically fitered and will look like your posts have disappeared. They can also disappear if you type too fast (and I do). Thankfully there is no filter for poor spelling and lack of word processor usage, as I use neither on blogs.

    Send a personal emial to Greg and ask him if you are banned, he will probably tell you the truth. If you have not been offensive or malicious to anyone, I doubt he willbann you, as he has not banned anyone I have read about in the past who is not massively insulting to everyone else on the blog, just like here.

    I suspect the truth is in the details, not the assumptions and pre-concieved suspicions some have recommended to you. I do not know you personal case on BVBL because I rarely post there anymore because I mainly agree with the main theme I read there, except the radical and intolerat wacko’s (an most of you already know them), just like I know them here.

    Personally I’m thankful both blogs exist (both BVBL and anti-bvbl) because if you read both you find the real truth in the middle. The most UNBIASED blog I know of on this “illegal” immigration issue is AWCheney’s.

  42. Chris

    Michael,
    You’ve given Diversity Gal good advice regarding bvbl. I would be willing to bet it was be she had an opinion that did NOT fall in to line with the beliefs of bvbl. There wasn’t anything offensive,etc. in my posts that were deleted.
    I would never get anything posted anywhere if it boiled down to my spelling or lack there of should I say.

  43. Michael

    Yes, I agree that is odd behavior for the Patriot I knew. No offense taken. I keep my cool here with almost everyone I talk to, unless they are targeting me personally without cause or justification, and I have not been offended by anything you’ve said to me now or in the past that I can remember. I only know 4 people on this blog that routinely offend and disrespect. I knew 3 on BVBL that routinely did the same. Everyone else just occasionally “lost it”, when they were angry about something. We all are entitled to rare bouts of that, and the forgiveness of others for the occassional slip into “reactionary commenting”.

    Juturna did that today and much to the betterment of his character, apologized. My respect for him equally increased.

    Again good to see you here.

  44. Michael

    Very good post Robb Pearson. Now we just have to deal with why we have “illegal” immiraion law and why we have “legal” immigration law and use the same rationale you stated for how we treat everyone else protected by those laws.

    The greater good is the side that protects and supports the greater good (the majority harmed) and the greater impact on everyone, not just a few, who by their “illegal” immigration harm far many more, than the “legal” system harms them.

    This is the only area where we appear to disagree, on who is harmed most and who deserves the greater Christian or Secular legal justice.

    It is my belief and research that “illegal” immigration does far more harm than good, and that to allow it to continue, causes far more harm to the nation, financially, legally and politically, than any good it does for a few individuals. Controlled “legal” immigration is the only right and moral way to deal with this issue. I use history as a moral and ethical guide for that assessment and other events in the rest of the world to show why it hurts more humanity fair more than help it overall.

    Of course that concept can be twisted anyway people want to twist it, but historical and world events don’t lie like people do.

  45. Michael

    Until people can factually show me that “illegal” immigration does far more good for the majority, than the harm it does for the MAJORITY (i.e the Democracy), then I will change that opinion.

    Socialism, Facism and AUTOCRACY by the way is when the MINORITY take over your legal, social and national political system and impose their brand of HARM on the majority. That is the type of political system the worst of world history has used in the past and present (criminal political infrastructure for example) and the type of political system used by other nation’s where the MINORITY rule the land and oppress all others.

    Historically I have seen evidence that “illegal” immigrants have always sided and politically manipulated the system based on their MINORITY beliefs, rather than MAJORITY beliefs, often using ethnic-centric political behavior and even criminal political behavior (fixed elections, bought off police, bought off politicians, etc) to justifiy that politcal alignment, and factional alignment for only their own ethnic, racial or religious group benefit. There is much evidence of the other side of “humanity” in the rest of the world and in history to offset what I perceive is your justification for siding with “illegal” sympathizers, I understand from your previous comments your desire and belief that only the good side of humanity exists in “illegals” and for that matter all of humanity. I would like to take that belief and “integrate” all of humanity too, by assuming a naive belief that ALL people are honest, deserving and non-harmful to others, but that is an extremely naive and is a limited view of the “real facts” about historical “humanity bahavior” in the world. I base this view of the world on my personal experience and research. The law is what separates that good from bad behavior and why there is a huge difference in the way you need to treat people who engage in “illegal” and “legal” behavior.

  46. Elena

    Robb,
    I just looked to see if your post was there yet, how shocked I was to find that your comment was still unapproved by Greg.

    I do agree with your premise of treating others they way we would like to be treated. But I see this undisguised disgust and villification of Latino’s and I find myself unable to reach out with love to these nameless and faceless “bloggers”. I try to ask people, what would you do if YOU were in the same situtation, children hungry with no future, would you risk everything for a better life? But there is a part of me that is frustrated and angry at the willingness of people to take the “easy” road and suggest that if we just scapegoat a particular segment of our society we will be “better” off. I post threads in hopes of sharing the history of our immigration policies ,and yet, most people are simply disinterested to learn about our own unpleasant past and how it is repeated itself today. How do we move foward Robb, I am at a loss?

    Michael,

    You said “I use history as a moral and ethical guide for that assessment and other events in the rest of the world to show why it hurts more humanity fair more than help it overall.

    Of course that concept can be twisted anyway people want to twist it, but historical and world events don’t lie like people do.”

    I posted two threads about the history of immigration and you were oddly silent. I agree, history doesn’t lie. So what are your thoughts on the KKK and the eugenics movement having such undue influence on our first quota immigration restriction in the Johnson Reed act of 1924 ? How are the arguments in 1924 any different than the arguments of 2008?

  47. Dolph

    Hello MIchael. Good to see you as well. I do not know the answer to your question. I am sorry.

    Michael, I don’t think you know that many of the people here on anti are people who ‘disappeared’ from bvbl. The blog owner made it happen. You don’t disagree with him in principle, therefore you have not been made to vaporize.
    ————————————————————————————————-
    Hi TH, How have you been? So good to see you.

    I wish NOVA Scout would find his way over here also.

  48. “Until people can factually show me that “illegal” immigration does far more good for the majority, than the harm it does for the MAJORITY (i.e the Democracy), then I will change that opinion.”

    Michael, ILLEGAL immigration does NOT do more good than harm, IMHO. That’s why we need to FIX THE SYSTEM. Until we do, the hurt, anger and fear will continue to grow.

  49. Robb Pearson

    Michael, you stated:

    Historical and world events don’t lie like people do.

    Perhaps not, though the factual accuracy of historical and world events depends greatly on the fallible people who record and report those events.

    Michael, you also stated:

    Now we just have to deal with why we have “illegal” immiraion law and why we have “legal” immigration law and use the same rationale you stated for how we treat everyone else protected by those laws.

    You obviously missed one of the core points of the post I made. Read my post once more and re-read the paragraph that starts with “It was that “kingdom of God”, or a new state . . .” There is where I advanced the point of the supremacy of “natural law” over man-made law.

    Michael, you also stated:

    Socialism, Facism and AUTOCRACY by the way is when the MINORITY take over your legal, social and national political system and impose their brand of HARM on the majority. That is the type of political system the worst of world history has used in the past and present.

    You make a valid political point regarding the prevalence of majority rule in democratic societies. However, majority rule must not exist to the detriment of the minority. That has been a fundamental hallmark of America’s political foundations from the very beginning (in fact the Constitutional Convention debates in 1787 made the theme of minority protection against a potentially oppressive majority of prime importance, which is why the “Great Compromise” resulted in the creation of a Senate with equal representation for each State regardless of its size). Otherwise, according to your perspective, the Civil Rights movement of the 1960’s, and the equality laws that resulted, represent an oppression of the “majority”. You couldn’t be more wrong.

    On this point, Thomas Jefferson, in his first Inaugural Address in 1801, imparted the following wisdom:

    All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression.

    The point: the majority is only right (and rightful) when it does not oppress a minority.

    Michael, you also stated:

    I understand from your previous comments your desire and belief that only the good side of humanity exists in “illegals” and for that matter all of humanity. I would like to take that belief and “integrate” all of humanity too, by assuming a naive belief that ALL people are honest, deserving and non-harmful to others, but that is an extremely naive and is a limited view of the “real facts” about historical “humanity bahavior” in the world.

    Again you display a peculiar propensity for failing to understand my points.

    The “good side” of humanity isn’t somehow tangibly located within any specific category of people. Human goodness is something all people have opportunity to choose to express. The Oneness that I pursue isn’t attached to any “naive belief” that all people are honest, nor is it accompanied by a “limited view” of humanity’s destructive behavior. Quite the contrary. The reason I pursue Oneness is exactly because of the very fact that people aren’t honest and that destructive behavior pervades the world. My goal in pursuing Oneness is to invite people to more creative and harmony-building alternatives to such destructive behavior.

    Michael, you also stated:

    The law is what separates that good from bad behavior and why there is a huge difference in the way you need to treat people who engage in “illegal” and “legal” behavior.

    You obviously missed my points about mercy, compassion, and grace. I once again refer you to my prior post where I advanced the point of the supremacy of “natural law” over man-made law.

  50. Robb Pearson

    Elena, you stated:

    But I see this undisguised disgust and villification of Latino’s and I find myself unable to reach out with love to these nameless and faceless “bloggers”. …. How do we move foward Robb, I am at a loss?

    All you can do, Elena, is boldly and steadfastly, yet humbly, invite others to alternative paths of behavior and more creative and compassionate insights. It is up to them to accept or reject. Most of the time, at least for now, such invitation is likely to be rejected. And so in such a predicament what you and I and so many others must continue to do is (1) shake the dust off your feet in the face of discouragement, and (2) continue moving forward joyfully, leading by example as unstoppably vocal and visible advocates to what is right, to what is moral, and to what is humanly ethical. Provided, however, that we are attached to a powerful vision and a motivating human cause.

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