Chief Deane, having expressed concern, from the outset of the first proposed immigrant resolution, did not want to negate the relationship his department had built with the immigrant community due to an ill thought out resolution with would result in “unintended consequences”. He shared great concern that turning his police officers into immigration enforcement would jeopardize the hard won trust his department had worked so hard to gain. It is not only Chief Deane that sees the risk in alienating the immigrant community, but apparently, the overwhelming majority of law local law enforcement feels the same way. Is this some lefty bleeding heart liberal conspiracy? Or is just simply common sense. Read more in this Washington Post article that demonstrates a national reluctance to morph local police into immigration enforcement.
I also found it interesting that the crime trend in PWC, crime decreasing over the past four years while our immigrant populaton rose, represented a national trend.
Although law enforcement agencies in Prince William and Frederick counties have agreed to help federal authorities enforce immigration laws, officials in many other parts of the country remain reluctant to do so, saying they fear losing the trust of immigrant communities and worry about being accused of racial profiling.
Despite a nationwide clamor against illegal immigration, only 55 of more than 18,000 police and law enforcement agencies across the country have signed agreements to coordinate with U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement.
El Paso’s mayor, John Cook, described his mostly Hispanic city on the Mexican border as “the second-safest city in America,” in part because it stresses community police involvement. While recognizing that illegal immigration is a crime, he said he is also worried about a growing public perception that immigrants are criminals.
“There is a danger,” he said. “Once people don’t trust a police officer in immigrant communities, they become communities that foster crime, where people won’t report domestic violence or the theft of a TV. If people feel they are under threat of being deported, they become silent. There has to be a delicate balance.”
Several scholars at the meeting expressed concerns about public perceptions that illegal immigrants are linked with high crime. Rubén Rumbaut of the University of California at Irvine said crime rates across the country have steadily declined as immigration rates have increased. His research showed that the percentage of foreign-born men in U.S. jails and prisons is far lower than that of African Americans and in some cases close to the level of native-born whites.
Other legal experts and advocates at the meeting said that immigration law is increasingly being “criminalized” to prosecute people who have crossed the border to find work, especially by charging them with identity fraud, and that civil immigration warrants are being used like criminal warrants, even though they do not carry the same powers, such as the right to enter a home without permission.
To heck with Chief Deane if he doesn’t want to make PWC safer. And I don’t think he does.
We the people are entitled to have our laws enforced.
Rick,
If you read the post article you discover that border town El Paso, Texas holds the title of second safest city in the Country. Might be a good idea to listen to what they have to say. Does anybody know if fewer crimes are being solved now? Is that a statistic that the police releases?
Following is part of a letter that I wrote to Jackson Miller at the last election for the VA House of Representatives. I sent a similar letter to Bob FitzSimmons. I have always felt that the Resolution and some of the proposed legislation at the state level had the possibility to create an enviroment of increased crime. Since I have many police officer friends, I asked them what they thought.
“I have police officer friends who work in Arlington and I know other police officers who work in various locations doing gang related work. You as a former police officer must know that these officers depend on the undocumented population to view them as friends and not foes. They need the undocumented to report crimes, advise them of what’s going down and to testify in court. The legislation in Prince William County and soon to be in the City of Manassas and what you propose will only hamper those efforts. All immigrants of Hispanic origin will be driven underground. No on will report, no one will be available to testify and the police will no longer be able to gather all the information they will need to either stop criminal activity or solve crimes.
In the Manassas/Prince William area there are gangs. The gangs here are not very organized and they come and go. The gangs, however, in Arlington, Alexandria and other Northern Virginia communities are very strong and organized. When the undocumented in our area become worried about being profiled and worried if they report a crime that they will be questioned about status and have to undergo a background check, they will quit reporting and cooperating. That makes this area a prime target for those more organized gangs to move in because they will have free reign. They won’t have to worry about anyone coming forward to rat them out. So, I ask you is that helping our police officers? I do not think so.”
Thank God crime has not increased and as Alanna states crime has actually been decreasing over the past four years.
Rick,
I want my local police officers to be just that, police officers. I do not want them to be ICE Agents. I think local police officers want to be police officers as well.
There is a 287(g) agreement with the Adult Detention Center and it was working before all this hysteria came about. Police officers doing their job will arrest criminals and the ADC will check status. The 287(g) program at the jail was working long before the BOCS decided to spend more than 3 million dollars on a program it did not really need. If more police officers were needed on the street due to a rise in crime or population, fine.
It amazes me how John Stirrup and Corey Stewart think they know more about policing than the experts know. Just plain arrogant on their part. They both have stated they have the utmost confidence in Chief Deane. Why don’ t they just let him do his job?
I do not believe that there is any implicit connection between allowing illegal immigrants to live in sanctuary or virtual sanctuary, and lower crime rates. To start with, I don’t put much faith in the rates themselves – statistics are usually manipulated for political reasons.
I don’t have time right now for any big debate on this but you have to admit that all the statistics aside people do not feel safer when the house next to them is full of anonymous people who have not been tracked over time for sex offenses.
Maria, does that mean Mr. Miller is off the PWC Police Force?
I meant Marie. Sheesh. My Freudian slip is showing.
Where a rapid rise in the Hispanic population does make a difference is in
public education. Please read the Metro section of today’s WaPo (B2)
“Schools By the Numbers”.
Despite the declarations by both sides that Hispanics are being driven from
the area, the racial makeup of the student bodies shows Hispanics
well represented locally – Manassas Park (44%), Manassas(38%) and PWC (25%)-
in each case at least double what it was just six years ago – 2002.
While the chart declares the major challenge in Fairfax to be “Dealing
with budget cuts … while serving rising numbers of recent immigrants and
children in proverty”, I think that is the same challenge for our local schools.
(Would be interesting to look behind the numbers – why does Manassas top
MP and PWC in average SAT scores but has lower pass rates for state reading
and math test?)
Poor Richard,
Interesting question about Manassas City’s SOL scores in reading and math. A year ago, the middle school math scores for the city were lower than Prince William’s very lowest school’s scores, as I recall. My guess would be that some programs needed to be overhauled at the local level. The math scores stood out as being uncharacteristically low and they should not have been. Hopefully, this situation was corrected last year and much better results are on the horizon. 6, 7th grade scores were the major concern.
The flip side of your question could also be, why are Manassas Park’s middle school math scores so much better than those of Manassas City and the Prince William County average? Someone is doing something right there.
Rick,
The main reason for having “statistics” is to have a tool that can help you answering questions. Statistics cannot be manipulated. The results either show significance or not. Statistician are opposed to conclusions based on proportions (which I think is what you are referring to). If a percentage, let’s say on crime, is lower this year when compared to previous years you cannot conclude that the differences are significantly different. Those differences might be the result of sampling or just chance. It is a problem when uneducated people in these matters make conclusion based on just numbers and not actual research. I agree that everything can be manipulated and that is why there is language used by scientists to detect problems with the methodology used( such as those studies published by the Center for Immigration Studies…Camarota et al). We need to know that language before accepting the “truth” found in all those reports.
“Statistics cannot be manipulated.”
Do you not understand that politicians’ claims of progress usually relate to the way your beloved statistics are gathered?
My car was broken into last year as it sat on the street a block-and-a-half from my townhouse. They gutted it for parts – they tore out seatbelts, took out part of the air conditioning unit, the airbags, etc. The police put this down as “vandalism”. It counts as if they nicked the paint on my car. Why not count it as theft, which it obviously is? Well, why do you think they prefer to count it as vandalism? Because then it gives the appearance they don’t have as big a problem with theft. You’d never know from the statistics that the streets near my house are so out of control that someone can jack a car for parts for hours and no one will see it or think much of it.
If you want to see an example of how this can be done in relation to, say, murder statistics, watch “The Wire”, possibly the best TV show of all time, particularly the 3rd and 4th seasons as the Mayor’s political hacks who run the Police Department work to make the statistics show progress, though the city is no safer.
Don’t believe everything you hear and read, please. And don’t try to convince me PWC is safer than a few years ago, with my car getting jacked and with the rather vicious rapes and murders gang mambers are committing and with gang graffitti in my town.
“Statistics cannot be manipulated.”
Yes, they can be. Or they can be interpreted differently. Stats might provide one source of information, but certainly, they don’t provide the full spectrum.
Rick, you sound like a very scared and angry person, and if all these bad things happened to you, then I understand why that might be. But harassing illegal immigrants isn’t going to fix your problems. I wish I had an easy answer for you, but there are never easy answers in life. Life isn’t fair or easy.
angry, yes. scared, no.
bad things happened to me – it could have been worse. Much worse. Which is what really makes me angry. How can anyone justify a loss in public safety just so wages get reduced? How can anyone casually undermine our social safety nets – drunk driving checkpoints, sex offender tracking, basic homeland security – for a quick buck?
I agree with you Rick, the way data are collected affects the results. So always read the methodology section of a report and then make your own conclusion. My problem is when politicians (such as our friend Corey) claim that a resolution has achieved positive results without the data to back it up.
My ‘beloved” statistics exist Rick to accept as the truth every single anecdote that hear from “suffering” people like you. What happens to you is an event, not science and it cannot be generalized to the rest of us.
“How can anyone justify a loss in public safety just so wages get reduced?” You mean your public safety, right? It doesn’t matter to those on top of the food chain what you lose. People deserve elect these politicians based on gimmicks. See Mccain attacking Obama rather than saying how he plans to solve the problems of the country. See Obama not addressing how to fix Social Security because of he doesn’t want people to react negatively to a proposal. Our apathy is allowing all these problems.
TH I’m quite familiar with scientific method. Are you so naive that you think our politicians and government institutions apply it, or respect it to the degree that they collate untainted statistics?
If you’ve convinced yourself that having tens of millions of undocumented walking around our neighborhoods, who have not been tracked by our law enforcement in the way our citizens have, then you’ve lost touch with reality.
I agree about apathy. More and more, as people see the things we’ve seen in PWC, they become less apathetic on the illegal immigration issue.
Both parties are unworthy of our vote.
Been checking on foreclousures outside of Westgate/Sudley/Marumsco….
There are some!
Heres one from Dominion Valley – wonder what the neighbors think?
http://www4.pwcgov.org/realestate/landrover.asp
Juturna,
That link doesn’t work, it goes to the homepage.
What’s the address?
Virginia State Crime Commission
The table below represents the top twelve offenses for which proxy illegal immigrants were
being held in jails at some point during FY2007. After examining the ranking of
offenses proxy illegal immigrants are held for, it appears that the majority involve alcohol related
offenses and possession of fake identification documents.
Top 12 Offenses by Proxy Illegal Immigrants in Jail During FY2007
Rank Type of Offense Number of Offenses (N=27,148) % of Total Offenses
1) Held on both state and federal felony charges 4,078 15.0%
2) DUI- Misdemeanor
3,209 11.8%
3) Driver’s license violation- Misdemeanor 3,086 11.3%
4) Drunk in Public 1,749 6.4%
5) Held on federal felony 1,532 5.6%
6) Local ordinance-related offenses 1,526 5.6%
7) Larceny- Felony 798 2.9%
Held on federal misdemeanor 777 2.9%
9) Fraud- Misdemeanor 623 2.3%
10) Fraud- Felony 600 2.2%
11) Reckless Driving 565 2.0%
12) Traffic- Misdemeanor 507 1.9%
Top 10 Court Jurisdictions for Proxy Illegal Immigrants in Jail During FY2007
Rank Court Jurisdiction
Jurisdiction #of Individuals % of Individuals #of Offenses
1 INS (ICE) 4,875 35.5% 5,690
2 Prince William 1,872 13.6% 3,895
3 Chesterfield 893 6.5% 2,993
4 Arlington 765 5.6% 1,635
5 Loudoun 672 4.9% 1,686
6 U.S. Marshall 563 4.1% 714
7 Alexandria 488 3.6% 1,297
8 Manassas 457 3.3% 861
9 Out of State/Federal 312 2.3% 355
10 Henrico 229 1.7% 463
* 971 individuals appeared in more than one court for an offense resulting in jail in FY2007.
Info,
Not to defend anybody but the report presents very important facts. First of all, let’s comment on selecting the sample. You mentioned clearly that this is just a proxy measure which means that it is not an accurate measure because it is inflated. it includes students with visas, temporary visa holders, and green card holders. Let’s say that it is OK to inflate the number so we can see the dimension of the problem. It we accept that all of 13,735 people in jail were illegal aliens. They represent six% of the total population in jail and only 0.18 % (not even 1 percent) of the total population of Virginia. I would let you make your own conclusions about the extent of the crime committed by illegal aliens (Mando and his/her stories). Are illegal aliens committing more crimes than other groups in Virginia? I am not condoning any illegal activity but we have to put things into a context and judge if the problem we hear about is based on perceptions or reality.
Also, info you forgot to list that in the top five countries with more proxy illegal aliens in Virginia jail we can find Germany at number 5 (four years ago that honor went to Vietnam). It is true that in the top 4 you will find Latin American countries but the numbers tell you that crimes committed by foreigners cannot be linked with “certain” type of individuals.
What are proxy illegal immigrants?
This information if you want to call it that is meaningless. Should we consider this our daily drive-by? Make a comment instead of just dumping stuff here. Obviously you want to mnake a point. It is falling on deaf ears.
Whew…thank goodness….saved by the bell….TH is here. What conclusions are we supposed to draw from that data dump?
Must we have to have our own resident statistician to interpret ‘Info?’ Wasn’t there another Info around here? Different name. ‘Info only?’ ‘Info,’ are you ‘info only’ or a wannabe?
1) Held on both state and federal felony charges 4,078 15.0%
2) DUI- Misdemeanor
3,209 11.8%
3) Driver’s license violation- Misdemeanor 3,086 11.3%
4) Drunk in Public 1,749 6.4%
5) Held on federal felony 1,532 5.6%
Well, to me it seeems like the top five are public safety issues. I feel safer know that those illegals are off the street. Public safety is the most important issue for me.
Dime
Jake the Snake-
Forget drive by. It’s more like “hit and run” daily.
“Info” is NOT “Information Only” who’s been posting on this blog since March. “Info” is a copy cat. I don’t know why she can’t come up with a name all on her own.
You say “wannabe” it’s more like a “cheap knock off”.
Thanks TH, excellent explanation of what these numbers actually mean or rather don’t mean!
Virginia State Crime Commission
Staff purposefully set forth the most conservative estimate for a number of reasons.
First, staff did not want to appear to inflate the estimated number of illegal immigrants in
Virginia jails. Second, staff did not know for certain how much of the additional percentage
included individuals who were intoxicated, mentally ill, or otherwise unable to articulate a
social security number or who were currently on a student or tourist visa. It was concluded
that it was too great an assumption to accept a less conservative approach at that point in
time. However, the potential range of illegal immigrants in jails being anywhere between 6
to10 percent needed to be recognized. It also needs to be recognized that the overall findings
are based upon the best available resources for analysis at this point in time.
Info,
I would go ahead and count 10 % instead of 6%. In that way, we can still say that the whole doomsday scenario is not real. 10% of the total incarcerated population would be about .28% of Virginia’s population. The percentages haven’t changed that much since 2003 so the whole scenario that “all our neighborhoods will disappear” because gangs will rule Northern Virginia is not happening. Those terrible predictions were based on the personal stories. Don’t get me wrong, I think that some of your experiences with “proxy” illegal aliens is unacceptable but those are anecdotes not facts that you can generalize to the rest of the population.
“It we accept that all of 13,735 people in jail were illegal aliens. They represent six% of the total population in jail and only 0.18 % (not even 1 percent) of the total population of Virginia. I would let you make your own conclusions about the extent of the crime committed by illegal aliens (Mando and his/her stories). Are illegal aliens committing more crimes than other groups in Virginia?”
How can you conclude that illegal aliens are or are not committing more crimes in VA by comparing the total incarcerated to the total population of VA? Where’s your logic? You need to know what percentage of illegal aliens make up the total population then what percentage of that population was incarcerated to make that inference.
“I would let you make your own conclusions about the extent of the crime committed by illegal aliens (Mando and his/her stories). Are illegal aliens committing more crimes than other groups in Virginia?”
Just to clarify and restate my “stories”, 90% of the rapes reported in PWC this year were commited by illegal aliens. Not sure how you’ve came to the conlclusion that any of that was anecdotal.
Always glad when you pick up on these articles, Elena, and the debate and commenting here is unlike anywhere else in the sanctuarysphere.
Question, Is crime somewhat inversely proportional to the community’s average income? If so, then increasing numbers of low or practically no income individuals isn’t going to help the crime statistics!
I think this fact sheet is important. It reveals that foreign born residents are 5 times LESS likely to be jailed than native born. This is the first time I’ve tried to post a link, so sorry if it doesn’t work!
http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/index.php?content=pr080717
Am I reading the stats improperly? When driving without a license is almost the most prevalent crime committed then it really makes me wonder what the hell are we doing? And why would the anti’s want to publicize these facts?
Sorry to interrupt…
Anybody watching the Democratic National Convention on CSPAN? I am big-time enjoying it. The speeches from Maya Soetoro-Ng and Jesse Jackson, Jr. have been particular highlights so far…and the evening has only just begun.
Here is another video from Terra Naomi…once again, because I’m feeling particularly cheesy and optimistic this evening:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN5FlQ82H0A
Enjoy!
kgotthardt,
Sorry it has taken me so long to respond. I have been in Arlington all day.
I believe Mr. Miller was a FFX police officer and left the FFX police dept. While he was on the Manassas City Council he was in Real Estate. To my knowledge he was not on the police force then. He ran to fill the vacancy for the balance of Mr. Parrish’s term after Mr. Parrish died. At the last election for House of Representatives in November 2007 is when I sent him the letter. I believe sometime after that became employed with the Prince William Co Police Force. Real Estate market is not too good.
None of you get the real issue on this.
Its not the number of any “group” that is in jail based on any “ETHNIC” group statistics.
It’s only the number of “illegal” immigrants period, that are in jails and should not even be here to commit these crimes in the first place. IF 13-15% of the population in jail is “illegal” then DEPORTING them means a drop in the overall crime rate (you could say instantly) of 15%.
That 15% LESS members in the community that have to experience ANY CRIME from these individuals. Who in their right mind would not want that?
The other issue with “illegal” verses legal, are ALL of the widely documented problems caused just by “illegals” simply because they are “illegal”. Deporting or causing them to be unable to function in this society so they CHOOSE to go back to their countries, ELIMINATES ALL of those problems caused by “illegal” immigration that are widely documented and that widely affect the “majority” population in this nation, for all the reasons I’ve posted previously.
Who in their right mind would not want those “illegaL” problems to end too?
WHO CARES if “LEGAL” residents commit more or less crimes, we simply have to deal with them and have no other choice (unless we shoot them, but who would advocate for that?)
Get you anger focused on the real problem, and eliminate it, rather than chasing your tails around in circles complaining about things you can do nothing about.
You CAN do something about the “illegal” population, because the LAW says you can. All you have to do is convince your ELECTED POLICE leadership to enforce it. (IF they are not bought off by criminal gang elements first, like they are in every other country with this criminalization of the political hirarchy problem).
IF we had NO “illegal” immigrants THEN we would have 15% LESS crime than we have NOW. You don’t need statistics to know people are twisting THOSE FACTS to their political advantage.
DO THE MATH 100%-15% = 85% left to deal with you can’t do anything about except throw in jail for a LONG time.
According to the Mayor, community involvement makes community safers. You lose that involvement once you turn police officers into ice officers. So, the 15% drop in crime that you might expect turns into an increasing number of unsolved crimes.
Michael,
Ted Kennedy just talked about Barack Obama closing the door on group against group in America. I’m telling you, man, this has you written all over it. I hope you’re watching the DNC:)
DG, I thought of Michael when I heard that also. Michael, are you turning into the new Ted Kennedy?
If everyone is so kean on bringing low income families into the community from other countries how about we invite all the inter-city low income folks here as well? I’m sure our crime rate would plunge according to your logic, and the best part is that they are all legal citizens. It would benefit both the people and our community………….NOT!
“It reveals that foreign born residents are 5 times LESS likely to be jailed than native born.”
I’ve read that they are less likely. However, the first and second generation descendants are much more likely to be jailed than native born Americans, as I recall.
Well, Rick, most of us are “first, second” and beyond descendants of immigrants! So that statement makes no sense. So you are saying “first and second” generations of HISPANICS are more likely to be jailed than Native Born WHITES or BLACKS?! Back it up and I don’t think you can.
SA, Read the fact sheet I posted. No, if we import LEGAL low income families, the crime rate would NOT plunge, it would go higher. The foreign born are LESS likely to commit crimes than native born.
A government official reluctant to do his job??? No. I just can’t believe it.
(editors note: I have edited your name. You are more than welcome to share your comments, but you must change your moniker as it is apparently extremely offensive)
Michael,
Your math is wrong. If you deport all immigrants from Virginia and if all of them were criminals, you would get rid of just 3.94% of the problem. If we use 20 millions as the number of illegal aliens in this country (it could be 12 millions) and all of them commit crimes, we would be talking about 6.64% of the total population.
I understand that they shouldn’t be here in the first place but please stop the logic that you will get rid of all crime by deporting millions of people. You won’t be addressing all the sources of the problem by getting rid of them. Use your commonsense and think why we are targeting illegal aliens now. Is just our fear of cultural differences? the kids of this group becoming part of a majority in a lot of places? .
Think about the numbers again and think about the health care system, schools, real state debacle, etc. 6.6 % of the total US population are not bringing down this country. It is our leaders and ourselves trusting them to make the right decisions. Illegal aliens are not forcing our government to waste $20 millions a month in Iraq or advising Wall Street to play with oil prices.
What is the other 93.4 % of us doing right or wrong?
I am still working for hard for our community. It has improved, but it’s certainly not time to give up.
Found new taggings this morning on Sudley Manor Drive, and I’ve called the PWPD. It appears to be more gang taggings.