LEAGUE CITY — The 17-year-old’s lifeless body was frozen in a sitting position in solitary-confinement at the Galveston County Jail.
Arturo Chavez’s back was flush against a 7-foot partition for the cell’s shower. A blue blanket was twisted into a noose, with one end wrapped around his neck, the other tied to a shower head.
He apparently hanged himself about 48 hours after being arrested for what started as an illegal left turn.
I have a son, he is almost seven, I can’t imagine him risking his life, crossing the Rio Grande, at the tender age of 13, hoping to attain the American dream. This is a story that exemplifies a crisis with our Southern neighbors and with our broken immigration system. Yes, its true, albiet he did it without proper papers, this boy risked his life to come here to create a better life for himself and for his family, imagine the inner strength it must have taken to make such a journey.
Arturo Chavez, 17, after being arrested for making an illegal left hand turn, reportedly panicked, attempting to flee from his jail cell. According to jail officers he was tasered and clubbed while attempting to escape over a fence.
From all accounts, he was a model immigrant, taking classes to learn English, proud of his Mayan heritage but also proud to be here in America, his ankle braclet displaying the red, white, and blue colors. He worked hard as a bus boy, hoping to move up to waiter. People will point out that he came here “illegally”, that he should not have been driving without a valid drivers license, and insurance. I agree with all that, but what I am wondering, is where is our soul as a nation, that we don’t raise this child up, praise him for risking so much, for being so brave to strive for the American dream as a mere child. How many teenagers do you know that exhibit such desire to better themselves and better their loved ones?
Those who knew Chavez said, like many undocumented immigrants, he feared any run-in with authorities as it would likely mean he would be deported.
He left Central America when he was 13 and wanted more out of life than he could get with tips loading baggage at a bus station.
Relatives say it took him nearly 15 days to get to Houston, including sneaking into Mexico and riding a passenger bus north.
He crossed the Rio Grande and hiked through South Texas.
Human smugglers demanded $3,500 to guide him, a hefty sum met with help from family and friends.
In Houston, he was known for his hustle and held out hope his improving English skills would get him promoted from busboy to waiter.
Chavez’s death was a mystery as much as a shock, said Mario Garcia, who owns the restaurant where Chavez worked.
“I don’t understand how you can go from making a mistake to losing your life, I’m dumbfounded by it,” Garcia said. “There are two sides to every story, and the truth is probably somewhere right in the middle.”
$100 sent home weekly
The kid known by his family as niño, Spanish for boy, had come a long way since leaving his indigenous village. He was sending home at least $100 a week to help his mother, father and sister.He was not only working full time, but attending Clear Creek High School’s program to help newly arrived international students.
He wore woven bracelets made of blue and white yarn — the colors of Guatemala’s flag — as well as an anklet with the U.S.A.’s red, white and blue.
“He was very proud of his Mayan heritage,” said Elizabeth Laurence, one of his teachers. “He was a feisty young fellow, popular and wanted to learn English very much. He wasn’t timid; he tried to use it.”
Things were going well with his girlfriend, Jhoseline Martell, whom he met at school.
As the police cruiser’s lights flashed behind him near Louisiana Street and League City Parkway, Chavez dialed Martell on his cell phone and stuffed it in his pocket.
“He said the police have stopped me, just listen,” recalled Martell, 15.
He normally rode a bicycle to avoid such trouble, but he had recently bought a used green Honda sedan.
He had no driver’s license, no insurance and what turned out later to be a fake identification card.
He was arrested and taken to jail. His mugshot was taken while he wore the red shirt from his job as a busboy.
KG your 9:03 post is on the money. My personal crusade are those that hold others to a standard or moral that they don’t holda themselves to.
Re Michals threats, Greg threatened a poster with legal action once to the great amusement of those watching. Consider the source
“Elena, I’m sorry I haven’t commented on yet another tragedy caused by the Anti-immigrant Lobby.”
Allana/Elena
You want dialogue with both sides like your original intention supposedly was? Omit BS like this and stop with the polarizing. Otherwise you’re just going to degrade farther and farther into another one of those 1 song blogs that only attract the same tune.
Mando,
My intent is to shed light on the human ramifications of immigration. My intent is to demand that people remember illegal immigrants describe a legal status, not a human being. My intent is to stimulate a conversation that involves credible solutions, fiscally sensible ideas, and require us all to remember that OUR ancestors came to this country looking only to improve their lives and the lives of their families.
Robb,
I used the word “praise” in reference to Elena (I think) using it.
“Perhaps to Arturo he wasn’t paying a smuggler, but investing in a savior.” A system that makes saviors of human smugglers, who blackmain many, kill some, and rape many, is a warped system.
“Perhaps to Arturo he wasn’t leaving home but was escaping hell, a place already overrun by bandits who he, as a young boy, was powerless to defeat alone.” Maybe that’s a valid viewpoint. But it doesn’t invalidate my viewpoint. Which is that our predecessors fought and died for unions and wages and a better America, and people like Arturo undercut that and make America worse to live in. And that in too many of the Central and South American nations, the populace is too lazy and stupid to take up that fight. they light candles and pray to virgins instead of fighting for what should be theirs. Then some of them come here and march in OUR streets, the climate being more liberal to them. They are abandoning their country to robber barons. there is wealth in those countries, but it is not dispersed.
Well said, Elena!
Mando,
How is this polarizing? How is this B.S.?
Is the thread about law enforcement unwilling to morph into immigration enforcement polarizing?
I don’t know what I will do in November but Mando makes an important point that Republicans and some Democrats have turned a blind eye to business pretending the trickle down theory is helping the middle class. I rcall trickle down used to be called the elitist theory. That was when we told the truth anyway.
@ Elena
Sorry, but I call BS. You know full well what these threads divulge into. I’ve yet to hear anyone from the “other side” say anything to the contrary of feeling remorse for this kid yet we’re demonized by certain posters here which is in turn applauded by others.
If your goal is to have blog full of parrots, you’re certainly doing a good job.
@ Juturna
It’s either trickle down or trickle up. Choose your poison, but in the end it’s all wealth redistribution. How ’bout we all just keep as much of OUR hard earned money as we can.
Rick,
One one hand you mention that your predecessors (the only immigrants that count) fight for their rights, but you don’t like the the “Illegal” immigrant march to in your streets to get the most basic right: be counted. Different times, different realities. When immigrant in the past were demanding decent wages they were considered “communists”. The problem I have with your revisionist perspective is that everything is changed in the narrative and those fights are embellished in an epic story.
Mando, don’t overlook that many of us had opposing views at the other blog and we were censored or banned. Perhaps that’s why there are more agreeing views here – we’re the ones who expressed an opinion that GL didn’t like.
Mando, if our economy has outgrown all these low level jobs, what do you do with all the low-skilled people who have been doing them? The town I referenced in the article above has a population similar to that of Manassas without all the government/contracting jobs. Aside from the carpet mills, there are small businesses and sales/clerical jobs. What do low-skilled people do for employment? Multiply that small town’s problem by thousands. Many people will head for the cities regardless of the mismatch in their skills with the jobs available. You’ll still subsidize them in one way or another.
Do you think we have wealth redistribution? or does the problem with illegal immigration is that we have to fight for the bones?
When we were getting some benefits from the system, we didn’t care if illegal aliens were around. The global economy has uncovered the fantasy of the middle class that we believed and now it is easier to blame a the outsiders (less than 10 percent of our total population). Again, 10 percent of all the people in the U.S. cannot be bringing our country down. When are the rest of us going to wake up? can you blame illegal aliens for the ghettos we have in our cities? I cannot believe that we will be paying our students here in Dc to motivate them to learn. Can be blamed illegal aliens for the problems that DC school system has? You can get rid of all illegal aliens and still have all these problems that the American Dream ideology is hiding.
And oddly enough, this blog is 10X more active these days….
“Different times, different realities. When immigrant in the past were demanding decent wages they were considered “communists”. The problem I have with your revisionist perspective is that everything is changed in the narrative and those fights are embellished in an epic story.”
The real problem is, times HAVE changed. The immigrants that are good for the US economy NOW are the ones here on student visa, ones with PhD’s, etc. Ship some of those jobs attracting illegal aliens to Latin America instead of China. Let Latin Americans create the Latin American dream. Economies have to start out somewhere. Japan/China should be a model. Start giving Latin Americans some consumer power in their countries and watch a healthy democracy/economy unfold.
Call me stupid TH, but sometimes I really don’t get what you’re trying to allude to.
Yes, we have wealth redistribution. Ding.
The global economy benefits us. Ding.
No, I don’t blame illegal aliens for our economic problems. They are an indicator of a far bigger problem. Ding.
“The problem I have with your revisionist perspective is that everything is changed in the narrative and those fights are embellished in an epic story.”
Goodness … the problem I have with your pollyaniaish perspective is that it contradicts everything Americans fought and died for for decades, and everything we were told by our political leaders. We were told we were building a better country for our children, and for those we collectively chose to let immigrate in – not that our land should be wide open to anyone and everyone, and that the elitists we helped to acheive and hold their power would sell our children out at the drop of a hat. I guess except for me and my parents being lied to our whole lives, I don’t have much of anything to be angry about.
“What do low-skilled people do for employment? Multiply that small town’s problem by thousands. Many people will head for the cities regardless of the mismatch in their skills with the jobs available.”
Education. Service industry. Of course there will always be a need and a supply of jobs for low skilled workers, but when you have them illegaly crossing borders by the millions, I say there is some imbalance.
Poor Rick, you believed the stories and you are not getting you money back… not even SS when you retired
I meant retire
“Mando, don’t overlook that many of us had opposing views at the other blog and we were censored or banned.”
I haven’t. I don’t consider the other blog a panacea either.
Mando according to Michael your latest statement could bring negative consequences to you too.
” TH I’m not threatening anyone. I’m simply pointing out that there are laws on the books that clearly identify as a crime, punishable with a sentence, any ACTION that aids and abets “lawlessness”, whether it be anti-harboring laws, anti-trafficing laws, anti-subversion laws and laws that describe acts of sedition and treason against the “majority” in a Democracy.
The supporters of lawless behavior (like the supporters who participate in internet crime, drivers for bank robbers, employers who hire “illegal” aliens, militants and subversives who take public action to subvert and undermine democractic law, people who aid and assist people inderictly who commit murders, steal, evade taxes, create false identity, promote, support and assist the deliquency of minors or the crimes of adults are all themselves accountable to a whole host of protective laws that prevent the criminalization of the political infrastructure and the political, mental, physical and financial harm to the “Majority” in a Democracy who follow and define the law in a Democracy.”
We are subverting the system now.
“Mando according to Michael your latest statement could bring negative consequences to you too.”
The one major problem I had with Michael’s “threat” was that we don’t live in a democracy.
Lots of theories going back and forth…TH, do we owe those here illegally a living? Do we owe those here illegally a right “to be counted” as you wrote at 14:31 hours? Certainly every person has the right to be treated in a humane manner, even when being involved with the enforcement side of the government such as ICE, but do we owe those here illegally a voice in our Nation’s policies? Why should they get a voice in a Country in which they have no legal standing? That’s the perspective I get from your statement. If I am incorrect on reading what you stated, I apologize, but that’s how I read your statement.
If we believe as has been written here by many (including myself) that the CEO’s are guilty also and should be sanctioned, should we not continue to sanction those here illegally? We are complaining that right now only the illegal aliens are being sanctioned and I agree. But we should be dealing with both parties and both should be sanctioned on an equal basis.
I dont recall you being demonized Mando. In fact, I thought you made an interesting point regarding the responsiblity of the parents in this childs journey.
Lucky Duck,
I totally agree with you. All I was saying was that Rick said that immigrants in the past fought for their rights but the new immigrants were just lazy.
I think that we need to attack the source of the problem. We have jobs and people willing to take them. I don’t know if you noticed that the only employers that were penalized during all these raids were the factory own by Brazilians and the Pollo Rico owners in our area.
The problem that I’ve seen in the carpet industry for example is that the more education a person has, the less likely he/she is to take these low paying jobs. When I was in elementary school, many kids in my classes were three or four years older than I was. They missed a lot of school because their parents had them out in the fields picking cotton or helping with small home industries. The graduation rate at my high school was high however, and those graduates didn’t go into mill work as their parents and older siblings did. There was then a labor shortage. Without the mills, there will be high unemployment in that area. Service jobs generally won’t pay enough to support a family. Therefore, people move away. As a country, we’re exporting even our high tech jobs. But we still have a demand in some fields (literally) for unskilled labor – a demand that our home-grown work force won’t fill, regardless of the wage.
Ok. I don’t think the new immigrants (legal and illegal) are lazy, and history has proven that previous waves were not lazy either.
You’re right, the owners of the eatery in Montgomery County were penalized and I am waiting to see if the managers/CEO’s of the Industrial complex that was raided (I believe in Miss.) on Monday which was the largest raid yet will be held accountable or if they will be allowed to just walk away.
This immigration mess won’t even end no matter who is elected President because the Congress cannot agree on a solution. Bush supported the McCain/Kennedy proposal and so will McCain or Obama. But what makes anyone think they’ll get it through Congress? That’s what this mess will continue on and on.
Elena – my argument is not the same as the one used a century ago. It is based on a vastly changed global economy in which all resources are nearly perfectly mobile, including labor. While the traditional argument based on economic theory posits that this mobility is a good thing, it means that all resource prices, including labor wages, are converging to a global average. That’s fine if your income is derived from investments in companies that benefit from this trend, or you have a well-paid job in a multinational company or other job that benefits from globalization. It’s not so great if you’re stuck in a middle class job with little or no opportunity to change, aside from taking the same wage as people in developing nations.
Even if my argument were the same as people used decades ago, why would someone else’s having used it previously, even if erroneously, negate its validity today? In the 1930s many Americans, including Charles Lindberg, argued that we should be close friends with and cooperate with Germany. They were wrong. Many argue the same today. They are correct. In the first case, Germany was under Hitler’s Nazi rule. In the second case, today, Germany is a democratic nation and a responsible member of the international community. Same argument, different circumstances.
Rejecting my argument today because you equate it with something someone else said decades ago under different circumstances is a very weak position.
You wrote also, “Why is it that whenever there is a new migration, centered around the increased numbers of one ethnic group, the same arguments arise?” You are the person bringing up race and ethnicity; I didn’t. I’m arguing about global trends impacting the American working/middle class in a profoundly negative manner. Immigration is part of the problem but not the entire problem. I haven’t mentioned Latinos once. In the context of this blog I assume that Latinos are the “one ethnic group” to whom you referred. In fact, my most negative comments were directed at the policies of the Chinese government.
Let’s drop references to race and ethnicity, and debate on the basis of facts and reason. Race is the basis of the new McCarthyism. Nowadays, when someone does not have a substantive rebuttal to a sound, logical argument they resort to race as the fall back issue, just like people resorted to accusations of communism in the 1950s.
Mando as long as the rules for earning and keeping (especially the keeping) are the same. I wouldn’t mind a tax rate similar to some of these larger companies.
Lucky Duck, 27. August 2008, 16:12
If we “The People” got off our duffs and started making phone calls and sending letters to Congress maybe they would agree on and inact a comprehensive immigration reform package.
Mando
I just want the same rules about keeping what I earn. My “wealth” is being redistributed at a higher rate than say Sprint.
Non-racists of the Republican party: don’t you think it’s about time you abandon the Anti-immigrant Lobby? The stragglers that still remain faithful to your bankrupt and discredited cause, as evidenced here, only serve to make fools of themselves and what’s left of your party. We’re passing the torch to the next election whether the Anti-immigrant lobby likes it or not. If you want to live to fight another day, jettison these unmasked and unhinged losers before your moderates leave and the rest of the country writes you off for decades.
Lucky Duck, Comprehensive Immigration reform will get through Congress for the same reason McCain beat out all the bigots for the GOP nomination, for the same reason Corey Stewart and Greg Letiecq are now as neutered politically as the Immigration Resolution was neutered legislatively, for the same reason Arizona is now passing laws to BRING immigrants to their state after destroying their economy in the name of prejudice and hatred.
It will happen because the entire country is fed up with the Anti-immigrant Lobby. We don’t believe their lies any more. One paragraph or ten. Their “logic” as evidenced on this blog is no longer credible. We’re not afraid enough, and you can’t make us afraid enough, to believe lies and vote against our own interest.
If the BOCS in PWC had the courage to do the right thing last April, even in the belly of the Anti-immigrant Lobby Beast, don’t you think the United States Congress has woken up to smell the propaganda too? Just like the rest of us, it’s a smell they don’t enjoy.
The Anti-immigrant Lobby has no role in this election, and no role in future federal legislation other than to serve as a good example of ideas that didn’t work, and attitudes that don’t belong in a modern day free country.
Mando, you stated:
Ironic you feel that way considering you choose to continue shoveling here (and shovel quite a lot, I might add).
Rick Bentley, you stated:
Oh, I wholeheartedly agree. However, you seem to have misunderstood the direction of my remarks. I utilized the perspective of “savior” as if it was a young boy’s (Arturo’s) innocent perspective, a young boy who, unable to yet understand the deeper implications of the situation he was caught in, may likely have seen the “smuggler” as a guide leading him out of hell and guiding him to a more life-affirming future. Hence the allusion to “savior”.
You saw my “savior” remark through a cold politicized lens. You need to see it from the perspective of a young boy’s frightened eyes. In other words, make an attempt at some empathy. Just some.
And your perspective is absolutely void of validity because you assume the ability to “fight for one’s rights” is monolithic, i.e., that everyone everywhere has the same ability and capacity to simply rise up and secure their natural rights. It isn’t so black and white as you would wish it to be.
In this century and in this moment millions of people survive in accordance with very limited “either-or” choices, which are confined within the boundaries of poverty and the realities of immediacy. Feed my family, or sacrifice my family’s needs to battle an overpowering oppressor? Farm my crops, or leave my fields fallow to march for political change? Risk certain death to confront a deadly enemy, or retreat to live another day? In this regard there is another old saying from the Bible: a live dog is better off than a dead lion!
In other words, it’s about powerlessness. It is a very real spectre that haunts the lives of many. Not everyone can simply pull themselves up by their bootstraps. I suspect Arturo and his family may have been in such a situation.
This nation’s political legacy of revolution and liberty cannot be the gauge by which the success of a foreign society is measured. The American Colonists in the late 1700’s weren’t fighting for survival against hunger or poverty, they were fighting for political self-determination. And they were not haunted by the spectre of powerlessness. Mexico and Central America in 2008 cannot possibly compare to America in 1776. Hence the reason why a contemporary call to Mexicans and Central Americans to “rise up and grasp your rights” the way our forefathers did is vastly unrealistic.
Well said, Robb!!
I second KG! And I really liked the “shoveling” comment…:)
Bill Clinton was great. Hope you listened Mando. Highest productivity with biggest drop in earnings. Business has been granted an ethical and moral bye.
Juturna, the Big Oil companies and the war profiteering companies like Haliburton and Blackwater wouldn’t be bankrolling the Republican party for nothing. No, no, they get something in return. They get stick their piggy faces in the trough of the American tax base and eat until they are fatter than fat.
That is the Republican philosophy, how can I turn all that productivity you mentioned, the productivity of the American people, into money in my pockets and the pockets of my super-wealthy friends?
Step one: Just do it. Rip off the American people for all we’re worth.
Step two: Re-invest a small portion of the windfall profits from the War in Iraq to pay for advertising campaigns, swift boat campaigns, and Presidential campaigns that distract us with hate, fear, and smear.
Step three: Repeat every four years.
Lucky Duck,
I share your concern, there is such a tenor of hate and fear growing about immigrants, I wonder where it will finally end up. Apparently HSM is promoting a FAIR rally in D.C. I thought HSM was only against illegal immigration? FAIR has made it crystal clear they are against all immigration and believe we need to reduce our population by half.
Save the Middle,
I am not going to pretend to be an economist, or use language that I am not familiar with, but I will speak instead to common sense. This argument you are using has been used MULTIPLE times, not only in this country, but throughout the centuries in many lands. The new faces that look and sound different are the reasons for all “our” troubles. I just simply will not fall for that propoganda or twisted facts. So yes, actually, I do believe that an argument used to instill fear, over and over again, is not a valid argument.
I recognize that we need to have a strong labor market, that we need to make sure that people are self sustainable so that we can survive as a nation, but I don’t see the impending disaster that you would have me believe exists. To deny that a racial undertone does not exist when talking about illegal immigration in this country is disingenous STMC. It is no coincidence that anti “illegal” immigrant blogs, and most comments directed at illegal immigration, speak to the latino component of immigration. I suggest you do a little research, read the comments from an immigrant news story, and you will see what I mean. Here is one of my favorites from a Wash Post story, it was about me, it went something like this:
“she isn’t hispanic, she’s a jew”
Lucky Ducky,
I don’t think the answer is to contribute to the ever expanding categories of human beings we find it acceptable to lock up in cages. I don’t think we should speak of locking up human beings in cages so flippantly. It should be something we find it hard to advocate. We should approach it reluctantly.
We’re already locking up more than a million human beings who are non violent but have broken this or that frivolous drug law.
These people ought to be free. They could be contributing to building our economy instead of being an expense. They could be contributing to our society instead of being wounded by our society with a criminal-record-for-life that they don’t deserve.
We have more than a million innocent people under bondage and forced to do slave labor.
And now you’re saying that we need to lock up even more? Because they used common sense and came here to work without papers. Or because they used common sense and hired the undocumented who were eager to work.
Well, my question is who is going to build the prisons?
The only crimes that are legitimate are those wherein someone’s person or property has been harmed. There is no crime if there is no victim.
Elena, that was a terrible comment directed towards you and I agree that there is a racial overtone in a lot of the commentary that has been presented, particularly on the local level.
Mackie, as usual, there are so many issues to address in your diatribe and you stretch legitmacy to its limits but I no longer consider you as relevant, so “no mas”.
NGL. Its time for the working class to reclaim this country.
Juturna,
That won’t happen until the ILLEGALS are removed. As long as they are here, business will continue to use them. As long as there are no consequences for business to use them, they will continue.
I have a plan:
Close the borders
Stop all immigration for 10 years (allow those already in the pipeline to continue the process)
Give all those here ILLEGALLY 90 days to get their affairs in order and leave voluntarily. (NO AMNESTY IN ANY REGARD) No one is rewarded for jumping the fence or overstaying a visa.
If they do not decide to leave on their own and they are encountered, they are deported immediately with ALL family members. Property seized and auctioned off to help pay for the enforcement of the law
FIX the 14th amendment. It was not designed to give babies born here to ILLEGAL parents automatic citizenship.
Fix the immigration laws (this is the reason to put a 10 year hold on immigration)
Set a reasonable quota for ALL skill levels of workers
Thoroughly test the e-verify system
Develop a tracking program for guest workers
If this takes less than 10 years, then so be it. This will ensure we get a comprehensive immigration reform solution to the problems the country faces today.
Juturna,
That won’t happen until the ILLEGALS are removed. As long as they are here, business will continue to use them. As long as there are no consequences for business to use them, they will continue.
I have a plan:
Close the borders
Stop all immigration for 10 years (allow those already in the pipeline to continue the process)
Give all those here ILLEGALLY 90 days to get their affairs in order and leave voluntarily. (NO AMNESTY IN ANY REGARD) No one is rewarded for jumping the fence or overstaying a visa.
If they do not decide to leave on their own and they are encountered, they are deported immediately with ALL family members. Property seized and auctioned off to help pay for the enforcement of the law
FIX the 14th amendment. It was not designed to give babies born here to ILLEGAL parents automatic citizenship.
Fix the immigration laws (this is the reason to put a 10 year hold on immigration)
Set a reasonable quota for ALL skill levels of workers
Thoroughly test the e-verify system
Develop a tracking program for guest workers
If this takes less than 10 years, then so be it. This will ensure we get a comprehensive immigration reform solution to the problems the country faces today. We have to make sure that all portions are enforced or this will not work.
Robb said:
“Mando, you stated:
“That’s why these threads are horse $hit.
“Ironic you feel that way considering you choose to continue shoveling here (and shovel quite a lot, I might add).”
Well yeah… the more horse $hit you drop here the more that needs to be shoveled.
Censored said:
“The problem that I’ve seen in the carpet industry for example is that the more education a person has, the less likely he/she is to take these low paying jobs. ”
How is that a problem? Manufacturing industries are being exported to countries with scads of unskilled and uneducated labor (similar to what we were at the turn of the century). Our labor force has advanced beyond this segment which is a good thing. Why keep those jobs here?
Robb said:
“The American Colonists in the late 1700’s weren’t fighting for survival against hunger or poverty, they were fighting for political self-determination. And they were not haunted by the spectre of powerlessness. Mexico and Central America in 2008 cannot possibly compare to America in 1776. Hence the reason why a contemporary call to Mexicans and Central Americans to “rise up and grasp your rights” the way our forefathers did is vastly unrealistic.”
Re-write history much? It’s nothing less then a miracle that a bunch of poor and untrained peasents fought off the largest organized military in the know world. All at the expense of their families which went without while their husbands/fathers fought for a great cause against insane odds.
You really make me laugh.
I was looking for a blog that offered an opportunity to participate in rational debate of issues based on facts and reason. Antibvbl has not offered that. In fact, I’ve found the regular posters here no less polemical than you accuse the bvbl crowd of being. Antibvbl has neither deleted nor censored any of my posts, and for that I applaud you. However, you have been unwilling to engage on the issues. I research my comments thoroughly, document the sources of the information I cite, and am willing to open myself to fair criticism that might prove my positions wrong.
The responses here have all fallen into one of two categories. First, stating that immigration should be controlled based on the interests of middle and working class Americans, or that all potential immigrants (legal or illegal) do not have an automatic right to come here, is said by the regulars on this blog to be an argument used for decades to exclude some people on the basis of race or ethnicity. You claim this is “common sense” and refuse to deal with the economic impacts of immigration on middle and working class Americans.
Posters will occasionally state boilerplate arguments about immigration being needed to grow the economy, without citing any verifiable data or research. This is a straw man argument anyway. Of course, we need immigration to fill gaps in the economy. My own views on immigration are probably more similar to Elena’s to the Greg Letiecq’s. However, emigration to the U.S. is neither a right that all foreigners hold to exercise at their discretion, nor a policy matter for corporate interests, lobbyists, and their “bought” politicians to determine in the service of their own interests.
The second category of responses from antibvbl regulars to differing opinions is to resort to the old stand-by of attacking the person making the argument rather than dealing with the argument’s merits. These attacks take the form of the new McCarthyism of allegations of racism. In response to two of my posts focusing on the economic dimensions of immigration, Elena responded, “Why is it that whenever there is a new migration, centered around the increased numbers of one ethnic group, the same arguments arise? Your economic argument today is no different than the argument of a century ago,” and “This argument you are using has been used MULTIPLE times, not only in this country, but throughout the centuries in many lands. The new faces that look and sound different are the reasons for all ‘our’ troubles.” Why can’t any of the antibvbl regulars actually address the economic issues with verifiable data and research?
I tried using a historical analogy that had as its premise that cooperating with Nazi Germany was BAD. Two responses implied that I was attacking Elena because she is Jewish.
I’m not falling for this mud-slinging. You have stated that many of the arguments for restricting immigration have been around for decades. Also, the tactic of avoiding substantive debate by attacking, or casting aspersions on the motivations of, the person making the argument has been around for decades. Implying, or accusing outright, that the person holding the other opinion is racist, motivated by ethnic considerations, or even anti-Semitic, is nothing more than a tactic to take attention off the substantive issues of the debate.
Regulars on antibvbl are no more interested in open debate than you accuse the bvbl regulars of being. You want others who hold the same views as yours to participate and support each other. Post a different opinion here and replies avoid substantive discussion. They devolve into allegations and innuendo of nefarious ethnic motivations. I’ve been looking for a blog to participate in intelligent debate and discussion of issues. Antibvbl is not it. I may post again but really think that the only thing the regulars here want is people who agree with them.
SMC,
So what? We like it here.
Save the Middle Class – you may have come to the wrong place if you were looking for a blog that offered an opportunity to participate in rational debate of issues based on facts and reason.
I think that the more vocal posters here comment based on emotion instead of facts and reason. The reason I think that is because some of them have family and/or friends here illegally. I could be wrong about that but that’s what it seems to me. Is there anything wrong with that, I don’t think so but it does hinder the ability to separate emotion from facts and reason.