The Washington Post reports another dynamic to the most recent raid in Mississippi. It appears as though the fiasco of herding people into a “cattle-call arena” after the raid in Potsville Iowa, and setting up shop to prosecute, may not have been reprensetative of a Nation who espouses the consitutution as its “rule of law” primary legal document.
“I think Postville left a bitter taste for a lot of people,” said Robert R. Rigg, director of the criminal defense program at Drake University Law School in Des Moines, who has criticized the case. “It paints a pretty bleak picture of American criminal justice, and I don’t think it’s the type of thing the judiciary or main Justice wants to replicate.”
Charles H. Kuck, president of the American Immigration Lawyers Association, agreed, saying he thinks the Justice Department is changing course.
“They clearly did not enjoy the press they got after Postville. . . . It may be a shift in strategy from how bad Postville made them look as they eviscerated the Constitution, doing everything in one fell swoop with the involvement of the federal court.”
Almost 600 people were arrested in Howard Industries in Mississippi, but unlike Potsville, where an overwhelming majority were charged with felony crimes, all but eight at Howard Industries were charged criminally. The remaining several hundred were turned over for civil deporation hearings, a far cry from being charged criminally.
The federal government’s handling of a massive immigration raid at a Mississippi manufacturing plant last week has led critics to suggest that the Bush administration is backpedaling from its aggressive use of criminal charges and fast-tracked trials against illegal immigrants caught at workplaces.
The U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency “continues to target egregious employers . . . to identify individuals engaging in identity theft, and we seek criminal charges where appropriate,” spokeswoman Kelly A. Nantel said.
Nonetheless, it was a stark departure from the way authorities conducted the previous record-setting sweep 15 weeks earlier.
“I don’t think it’s a shift away from what they ultimately want to do, which is to punish and deter people from using fraudulent identities to obtain work. It’s a different path to the same goal,” Kuck said.
But he added: “They could do one of these raids a day for the next six years and still not deter people from doing it.”
So, the question remains, WHY are we continuing a strategy that we KNOW will NOT create any long term solutions to immigration?
The answer is very simple: November 4, 2008. ELECTION DAY
I hope people read the entire Post article. I also hope that if people have time, they read this: http://www.mfsaiowa.org/An-Interpreter's-Account-of-Postville.pdf
I am just posting this PDF because it has the article without commentary. However it is widely available elsewhere.
It’s kind of long, but it is a fascinating account by a professor who served as an interpreter for people held after the Postville raid. It shows how core elements of our legal system were given short shrift for political gain, such as the necessity of people understanding the charges against them. The professor who wrote it (and who has been interviewed for NYT coverage and other articles) broke a silence that by custom he was expected to keep because he was so appalled at what he witnessed at the Postville raid.
Leila,
I read the account of the professor a few weeks ago. It was VERY disturbing. The setting of the cattle call arena paralled that way these people were treated like cattle. I wanted to do a thread, but it was just too time consuming, trying to get it into a thread that people would read and that would also do justice to the facts.
Thanks Elena and Leila. As soon as I get some time I will read the Account of Postville. I know about Postville and find it disconcerting. I have read the WaPo article.
Marie,
You will be astounded by the clear legal violations. I think people are confused regarding our consitution. People still have rights,as human beings, even if they are not citizens.
TH, Elena, and Censored, I have answered your “questions” and comments on your 27 Aug posts, regarding the Law and your questions about “subversion”.
I have a life (unlike some), and rarely see this blog as a full time career. But I do think all questions and issues should be fairly and politely answered.
Yes, all people have rights, even those who are not citizens. There is this law called “due process”. I support you in this, even while not supporting illegal immigration, but the proper processing by the law, using the legal standard, on how to legally process those who are being held on suspicion of “illegal” behavior. That has nothing to do with “cattle” processing descriptions, however, as a “jail” expected to process 600 people would be called “cattle” processing too. The legal issue is whether any “laws” were broken in the “due process”.
Illegal immigrants are still illegal, and should be persecuted to the limit of the law, not over it, not short of it either.
Law has nothing to do with “sympathy”, a fact so many of you seem to always forget. Every family member is sympathetic for their member of the family who broke the law. I see ethnic, gender, racial and religious, “groups” doing nothing different here in giving out un-warranted sympathy and illegal support.
What specifically were the actual “legal” violations? is their a report or did I miss something? Or is this just one man’s opinion? The page you reference does not exist.
I think some people think that criminal charges and “illegal” immigration must go hand in hand. It does not. You only have to be caught breaking “immigration law” to be deported. It matters not if you have been charged with any other crime first.
Illegal immigration laws come from federal statutes, at that point you are simply splitting hairs to not call them “crimes”. It is also a common mis-nomer ploy by “illegal” lovers to claim that it is a victimless crime when it is not. Explain that to all the people who will soon “sue” for civil damages caused to them by “illegal” immigrants and those who aid and abet “illegal” immigrants, and the Majority in this Democracy who demand criminal law be upheld. That “ploy” will not stand the test of time.
I’m waiting for the day I can sue my “neighbors” for the financial damage they have caused me by “violating zoning laws” and renting single family homes out to people who are not families, or in many cases are not even legal. There are two laws violated that affect me personally in this case, the damages caused to my neighborhood and society by “illegal” aliens, and the damages to my community caused by zoning law violations. As soon as I get enough evidence I can criminally and “civally” prosecute. I will probably win that lawsuit. This is what anti-harboring laws are for. To protect me, from individuals who harm me. I am entitled to legal and financial compensation for that in a court of law.
I may someday be able to gather enough evidence of personal damage as a result of the things said on this blog that are illegal, that I might even be able to hold some legally accountability and personal damages statutes as a result of the aiding and abetting, and support for “illegal” lawbreaking advocated politically here. That is not a threat, that is simply a statement of law, and recognition of the entitlement of any legal damages anfd rights I may have under the law (by legal counsel) when my personal life has been affected, and my financial state has declined as a result of the losses I experience due to “illegal” immigration, and support for that by “illegal” lovers.
It all depends on “evidence” and “law”. None of us are above it.
Michael, the entire PDF didn’t print as a link above. Paste in what is below and the page will appear.
http://www.mfsaiowa.org/An-Interpreter's-Account-of-Postville.pdf
About the lawsuits you propose. I would advise you not to hold your breath. However since you seem so eager to engage the law, maybe you could pursue those things you have described as scams close to home.
Michael,
Reality seems to alude you, once again. And you are threatening people on this blog and it’s getting tiresome, although I still find semblence of amusement from your impending lawsuit 😉 The first amendment in this country is highly protected. You may not agree with my belief that we need to reform our immigration law, but that is my right to believe it. You may not believe that hard working people, having committed no felony crime, and have contributed to this society should have a required path to citizenship should be a new policy, but it is my right to believe that such a new direction is in the best interest of my country. It’s called debate Michael, and it requires opposing views. You are just being silly, once again.
Hired Guns.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-d9wmqO2Khw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQNaMHrBa8w&watch_response
Elena,
Michael might have a point there. I’m not so sure about the insolubility of our first amendment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5af22rJruk
Now that was very disturbing to watch Mackie. Have the “regular” news media picked up on this? I wonder if the New York Post will cover the story of their photographers experience.
Elena,
That story about the New York Post guy was at least some degree of poetic justice. He was probably rooting for the jackboots, right before they stuck their jackboots in his…
Michael,
I found a good video I wanted to show you. Of course you won’t agree with the content but I’d like to get your opinion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPBWUh5DI8c
Leila,
The link does not work.
Did anybody catch the follow-up stories about the local citizens getting their jobs back after being fired? Apparenly, the company was firing union members and hiring illegal aliens to cut labor costs. Also, it was reported that the union members applauded as the illegal aliens were led out of the plant.
Finally was able to find the Interpreters Account of Postville. My god what a horror. I was astounded and dumbfounded by the in your face violations of the Constitution. It is going to take some time to digest this. My mind is spinning.
Johnson,
Can you please provide the link regarding firing of Union workers to hire undocumented people. I would be interested in reading that story.
Elena,
I would never attempt to sue you or anyone on this blog for what is “said”. That is free speech. The only thing people can be sued for is sedition, subversion, and other real political actions taken in the community or as individuals that cause real damage to the Democracy, National Security, or real civil damages to individuals. Blogs are a great tool to collect intelligence on other activities that can lead to arrest, proof of lawbreaking in “harboring, aiding and abetting “illegals” and supporting militant political and terrosist groups.
As I said before, these protective laws are available to everyone (you would be amazed at how many their actually are and cover almost every conceivable situation that can cause harm or damage to an individual or to the country. To procesute using such protective laws, any person needs is evidence (gathered from any credible source), counsel and a court to prosecute the “individual” damage.
Happy to comment for you Mackie.
A lot to comment, but I’ll keep it short.
1. Yes, there are cases where police do exceed their authority and let their anger get the best of them. Same with the military or the National Guard (Kent state being a good example).
2. No these cases are not some “conspiriacy” by the government to undermine your individual rights.
3. No the number of cases is not rampant, compared to the total number of arrests, those cases where this happens are extremely rare.
4. Yes, most people who RESIST arrest, talk back to police, do not do what they ARE TOLD, WILL GET POLICE ATTENTION, AND A MUCH STRICTER HANDLING, AND CONTAINMENT/SUPPORESSION OF THIS BEHAVIOR. (Case of the arrogent news reporter, who forgot that “free speech” is not a license to tell police to “F” off. You will get arrested if you do this and you will get roughly handled, as a means as taught in TRAINING to protect the safety of fellow police oficers from Idiots and unpredictable people who disobey police discipline of the situation.
5. policeman are far and wide FAR more professional than the people they are arresting.
6. in General policemen follow the law. If YOU follow the law, you have nothing to fear, except in only very rare cases of criminals who have made it into the police force as a result of criminalization of the political heiarchy (also very rare in a Democracy).
Respect the law…it will be applied to all the same and used to protect the innocent from the non-innocent. Without it and law enforcement professionals you would not have a Democracy, but an anarchy.
You really don’t want an “Anarchy”, or a fascist state do you Mackie? If you don’t support the police or the law or Democracy you will have any wish for such things come true.
Good video.. however I don’t agree with the obvious paranoia of the person doing the video.
Thanks for posting and asking for my opinion.
Marie, for some reason it wasn’t working as a link because the end part was ignored in whatever the automatic link-making process was. If you cut and pasted it, it would work.
But I am glad you read the thing. It is very shocking indeed. If you have found a non-pdf version that you can post the URL of, I assume that would work. I think the pdf aspect must have caused the problem.
Michael, to use a term like suing in relation to sedition is ludicrous. You seem to have a real confusion between civil and criminal law. In any case, you continue to make threats. Still, you clearly are so confused about what the government would be interested in prosecuting, that it all just comes off as really goofy and naive.
@Elena
You wouldn’t feel that way if you discover an illegal got hold of your social and other personal information and used it, and then discover that not only one illegal used it, but 50 of them did. It has happened too many people, and after years of trying to fix it, they haven’t. Beside illegal is illegal, and fraud is fraud, and there should be a punishment for breaking our laws. You go to Mexico and pull that crap that they do here and see if they won’t put you behind bars and treat you like the worst illegal criminal, because in that Country they’re not merciful to illegals.