Hello asked some good questions about a comment from Mackie. Let’s review.
What Mackie said:
John Stirrup wasn’t duped. He knows exactly what he’s doing. He left arlington to escape working class latino immigrants. Now this buffoon wants to forcibly turn PWC into his own personal demographic experiment. Undocumented are kicked out, and for those people of color who remain, a quasi-police state. It’s all the same to John. It’s not his kids who will be stopped on the street by the police and asked if their parents are illegal. He is a sincere in supporting the resolution no matter what the party says. Sincere enemies are always the most dangerous.
And similar to Adolf Eichman, he likewise implemented an efficient and effective policy to ship the undesirables out of the community.
This was my initial response:
I wouldn’t have gone as far with the comparison to Adolf Eichman, but otherwise Mackie’s statement is dead-on. Stirrup wasn’t duped into dealing with FAIR. The quote about his leaving Arlington because of the demographic shift is accurate. According to IRLI, we have been turned into a lab experiment. He was in favor of a plan that would have been very similar to a police state. His blond haired child won’t be asked if her parents are illegal. And he did implement a policy to rid the county of those he perceives to be undesirable. Where exactly do you think Mackie was incorrect in his analysis?
To which Hello asked some good questions which I have attempted to answer here.
1.) He left Arlington to escape working class Latino immigrants?
My answer:
In an interview, Stirrup said he moved to his home near Haymarket nine years ago in part to escape a wave of immigrants that he believed was fueling crime and driving down property values in his old Arlington neighborhood.
source: http://hamptonroads.com/node/423771
2.) He wants to forcibly turn PWC into his own personal demographic experiment?
My Answer:
Again, he worked with IRLI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBbjrk0QWqw
3.) Undocumented are kicked out, and for those people of color who remain, a quasi-police state?
My Answer: The quasi-police state was the original suggestion of the resolution that discussed restriction of a wide-range of services and included I.D.’ing everybody. Actually the quote from the County executive interview addressed this initial policy.
I believe it’s in this video that the County Executive talks about what the initial proposed resolution would have meant and it sounds to me like a quasi-police state.
source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRRVWb_aiQ4
4.) It’s not his kids who will be stopped on the street by the police and asked if their parents are illegal. (looking for evidence of kids currently being stopped on the street by police and asked if their parents are illegal)?
My Answer: Hispanic kids are carrying around their birth certificates in their glove boxes. Do you think Stirrup’s blond haired child is doing the same?
Source: Washington Post
5.) He likewise implemented an efficient and effective policy to ship the undesirables out of the community. – this one if more of a question I suppose, are the undesirables illegal immigrants?
My Answer:
1.
“How are we supposed to survive here?” asked Gregorio Calderón, a legal U.S. resident from El Salvador who said he worries that police will harass him because of his ethnicity. “They’re going to pull me over just for being Hispanic.”
source: Washington Post
2. And, another article entitled- A Hispanic Population in Decline
WOW!
Thanks Alanna for listening! Thank you Mackie for opening my eyes the way you do 🙂
I will repeat what I said to Elena in another thread:
“I see where you ( others) are concerned about paper checks, humans not being treated as humans and the scary words of NAZI and genocide that you and KG get so much grief for.
I see the arguments from the likes of HSM, BVBL, etc, that PROMOTE the type of thinking as in, if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about.
It is a tug of war that keeps on and nothing progresses.
This is where I ADMIRE Mackie for bringing a very IMPORTANT subject to light that I see both side dismiss so easily.
HE/SHE ( I question, because I find them very smart and careful, lol) is very SYMPATHETIC to both sides but brings up the uncomfortable questions and possible/ALREADY occurring consequences.”
“They’re going to pull me over just for being Hispanic.”
SFW> I’ve been profiled and pulled over. Big frikin’ deal! Come on, get some sense of proportion here.
Police state? I know families on my block that emigrated from DC because their kids were getting immersed in crime and gangster chic and they basically came here to try to save their kids’ lives. Police state my ***.
If Stirrup did leave Arlington because of quality of life issues, he’s hardly the only one – he just said it out loud in public once. So many people leave here because of the same issue but don’t want to say it out loud. I’ve talked to some of them on their way out the door. They told their neighbors and co-workers one thing, but if you engage them on the issue of illegal immigrants to the left and right of us, they’ll tell you bitterly that’s a main reason for them moving.
It’s not about race. It’s about suburban life vs. living in a ghetto where the populace can’t bear their share of the burden of keeping society running.
To me Arlington is the social experiment in progress, and if that’s what they want let them have a go at it.
Hi Alanna, thanks for taking the time to respond and you made some good arguments. However, some of those arguments can be considered hearsay rather than evidence. I don’t have much time to look into them in detail today but when I get the time I will.
One thing that I don’t agree with (at first glance) is the point number 4. Mackie said that Hispanic kids are being stopped in the street and asked if their parents are illegal with which are agreed as being “dead on”. You provided no evidence of this at all, you only stated that Hispanic kids keep their birth certificate in the glove box and asked if Mr. Stirrup’s kids do the same. This is no where close to anyone being “stopped on the street by the police and asked if their parents are illegal.”
Like I said before, Ill take a closer look at the rest when I get a chance but thanks again for the response.
There is not a shred of evidence that this area has become a “police state.” I see police cars driving through parking lots, Hispanic children riding their bikes in circles nearby, even cutting off the police cars; moms with kids in strollers, Hispanic families in Walmart shopping like everyone else. They’re out driving, eating in restaurants, using the computers in the public library, strolling through the neighborhoods. In my neighborhood they are out in the front yards in the evening listening to music and socializing. Any “fear” is purely anecdotal and played up by a media eager to stir up racial division.
My neighborhood has improved somewhat over the past few months, but you’d better believe that if things had gotten any worse, I would have done what I could to leave. I have a right to expect that my neighborhood should not deteriorate just because some people feel that maintaining a home is “acting white.”
Should we assume that anyone who moves to Haymarket is just trying to flee “undesirables”? That doesn’t say a whole lot about the residents there, does it?
Hello,
What Alanna is alluding to is that she knows Hispanic kids who keep their birth certificates close by and I believe her. The reality is that perception by people in this community, especially if they are of latino descent, is that they ARE vulnerable. I know a few landscapers, who over the summer, had great difficulty getting people to come and work in PWC because their impression was that they were at risk for being harassed for proof of status. These were legal residents OR citizens of Hispanic descent who felt this way.
The landscapers may have been legal but the people working for them probably weren’t.
Your “police state” arguement hardly moves me – I would FAVOR a police state after what I saw happen here.
“Your “police state” arguement hardly moves me – I would FAVOR a police state after what I saw happen here.”
That is my concern. I am not saying PWC is a police state but it starts somewhere out of fear and frustration. The argument of you don’t need to worry if you have nothing to hide is FALSE sense of security in my opinion. People need to be vigil of our rights and FREEDOMS. I am sure you were being sarcastic but I am sure there are others out there that are so fed up and can’t the danger before it starts. I know I even said myself, let them check all of us and slowly it was dawning on me, what next and where does it end.
Don’t think it can’t happen?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3sl4TAcL10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z9puqvYdOM&feature=related
Police State…You people wouldn’t know a police state if it popped out of the toilet and bit you on the butt.
The repeated references to Nazi Germany are perhaps the zenith of ignorance. You folks really need a history lesson in the worst way.
You want to talk about Nazi Germany?
How about a guy who leans far to the left and makes the ignorant masses swoon with his oratory…Hitler? No…Obama.
Do any of you suppose that a “police state” would permit G. Fernandez to keep his sign up all of this time? No. I think in a “police state,” his body might have been found in a ditch somewhere the first time he thumbed his nose at the City government. He should be thanking God every day for the freedoms he enjoys in this country. It was the City’s attention to the sensitivities of the community and its awareness of the free-speech aspect of this that kept them from bulldozing the thing and shipping Fernandez’s butt to jail.
Hardly a “police state.” Legal residents have their rights, too.
Moon-howler, are we supposed to live in fear of our government because of a couple of fabricated YouTube videos? Really, now.
I’m sorry, I was addressing Red Dawn about the videos.
hold up the original proposed resolution would have been quasi police state. Gearhart says it would have meant detaining everybody Everybody even when they knew you were not illegal
what we have now is nowhere near what they asked for.
Emma,
NOT FEAR, just THOUGHT 🙂
Emma,
I want you to explain please, exactly HOW are the video’s fabricated.
Emma
Please remember that Prince William County where the original resolution was written and adopted is not the City of Manassas.
Elena, I think Emma meant that the video were reenactments so that the final scene would look just like something from 1930-1940’s Germany and were not real scenes taking place in the US.
The videos are meant to make you think but they are not evidence that anyone has established a police state.
It is a dramatization and that is what makes them “fabricated.”
Police state is a when a government exercises rigid and repressive controls over the social, economic and political life of the population. Does anyone doubt for a moment that is exactly what the Rule of Law Resolution would have created if it had not been changed?
Don’t worry, PWC won’t be able to foot the bill for a police state……
I’m thinking that this blog will be the next to go after the downfall of the billboard. Nothing constructive here of late. People are getting tired of the same old talking points like a never ending tennis match. Most will become uninterested because they can see the community is indeed better off than it was a year ago. I’m even seeing that there isn’t any more need to try and convince people about the merits of adhering to the law as results speak with much more impact.
Ah, the light at the end of the tunnel!
SA – I fear the financial situation is just about ready to explode. Hold on, there will be more to chat about.
And NO I don’t blame Stewart or illegal immigration for it. The stage was set in the early 2000’s with over a 50% decline in the tax rate. Now, I do blame Stewart and others for not seeing it coming as many did and not preparing for it. But, he didn’t start it.
However, Mr. Stewart has repeatedly said we are saving millions and millions. Now would be the time for him to point us to that cash. It will be needed. 🙂
The video that MTV put out was not on PWC or about illegal immigration. It is designed to make you stop and think. That is what it made me do. Fill in the blank of what problems exist and how we should deal with them. The answer is not to act out of fear or frustration and to STOP and think of unintended consequences. YOU are the voice not government to tell us what we should do.
Did this concern anyone: ( especially 2nd amendment supporters that feel your rights are on the line?)
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/20/eveningnews/main4276185.shtml?source=RSSattr=CBSEveningNews_4276185
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjerNg4NBIM&feature=related
Oh, please, Marie, I am well aware that the Resolution was enacted in PWC and not the City. But come on, legislation gets proposed all the time, nationally and locally, and by the time it becomes final law it rarely resembles the original bill. So the original resolution had flaws, they were worked out, and so many of you here have celebrated because you think it has been largely neutered at this point. So what is your point? Your elected officials hashed it out, the public spoke out, and what you have is the end result. No police state, no fear, Hispanics still laughing and eating pizza at Tony’s right next to county cops. You’re living in fear of what you think might have been, but isn’t, because that is how our system works.
So what are you really worried about? Is it really that you’re alll just mad that Corey, Stirrup and Greg didn’t go down in flames?
Emma,
Okay, if not a police state, what about the government taking MORE control?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122064650145404781.html?mod=hpp_us_whats_news
Emma yes I think some of us are frustrated that there has not been more of a hue and cry about the APPROACH to this issue by these folks. You have indicated yourself their style is not yours. Cruelty and endorsement of same does make some angry.
Actually, Fannie Mae started out as a fully governmental entity, Red Dawn. Although the government is firing the boards and CEO’s of both companies, they should also be fining the hell out of them since they apparently won’t be jailing them. You know those folks will leave with fat severence packages, etc. I hope the newly appointed leaders will be put on a pay-for-performance system like many other government employees.
Emma,
I am aware that they started out/are a government entity due to the depression etc.
So why do they have to seize control/ bail out once again?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4kxTkhwR_Q
Ahh, got it PW Resident. Not a reference to 9500Liberty. Wow, total lack of communication, thanks for clarifying for me PW 🙂
You all keep it up. With more postings like this one, John Stirrup will not have any trouble at all winning reelection. The comparisions with Adolf Eichman and enforcing laws against illegal immigration are so over the top they are laughable.
Look around at the rest of the world some time. We treat lawbreakers with absurd gentleness. If our jails are abominable places, it is mostly because we don’t stop the criminals in them from preying upon each other.
Please try to remember that borders have a purpose. Because we do not enforce our border, we have large numbers of people entering our nation illegally.
1. Most come just to work. Unfortunately, their pay does not cover the cost of the public services they use. In addition, when they compete with legal citizens, these illegal immigrants take jobs from and reduce the pay of our unskilled workers. Our unskilled workers need the jobs illegal immigrants take both to feed themselves and as stepping stones to better jobs.
2. Some illegal immigrants also come here to commit crimes. Occasionally, these crimes even include acts of terrorism.
Citizen Tom,
Damn Skippy our borders need to be secured for all the reasons you stated. I am speaking for myself when I say, that I am APPALLED that our Federal Government has not done so and pitted neighbor against neighbor. MY PERSONAL view is that maybe there is more in play than meets the eye ( I like SOME conspiracy theories- ACTUALLY, I set off to try and prove it wrong! lol)
In search of trying to discount some of those, I find more and more connections to those theories and at the same time, see the build up of people so fed up/frustrated that they are WILLING to sign away civil liberties on the dotted line as QUICK as those that wanted creative financing or a front line /jumping pass to US citizenship.
But Citizen Tom, Alanna denounced the comparison to Adolph Eichman and instead addressed the relevance of the rest of Mackies post. Additionally, there are plenty of objective reports that suggest when it come to undocumented workers, they are a net gain to the nation. What happened to your summation of immigration regarding earned citizenship and learning English as a solution.
This is for Mackie as he/she is MIA 😉
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIOSAkX4pfY
Does anyone besides me think that illegal immigration is a problem but just don’t like the way its been handled in PWC?
If not I will just bag this whole thing.
The comparisons are ridiculous but they are driven by the frustration.
Juturna,
Honestly, I am confused. Is it a problem? I really don’t know. I think our immigration system is broken and because of that you have an Illegal immigration problem. Is it the chicken or the egg? Which came first ? On one hand you have a labor need, on the other hand you have a security issue, a fair wage issue with immigrants, where is the truth in all these divergent “facts”?
Juturna,
I agree with you. It’s like you said earlier it’s the APPROACH.
I have VERY strong feelings about illegal immigration, and needless to say I do NOT approve of it.
I’d become very frustrated with how things in my neck of the woods had gotten. When at the peak of frustration last year, I was angry. I am still angry today, but for very different reasons than a year ago.
I can only imagine what kinds of cuts we will see in the county next year. The real estate assessments will be even lower next year. This along with the cuts that are sure to come from the state will leave us with a worse budget year than this current one.
Juturna,
“The comparisons are ridiculous but they are driven by the frustration.”
Oh gosh, that is one of those questions….. the chicken or the egg.
They are/can be perceived as ridiculous, driven by frustration. I guess the only difference between the 2 is what would be considered as a DISTRACTION? ;(
LOL! I wasn’t the only one using the chicken or the egg…..I’d rather JUMP around than be a sitting duck.
Breaking out the video 🙂
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZZADbubu0Y
posted by Red Dawn
musta met my quota 😉
Juturna said “Don’t worry, PWC won’t be able to foot the bill for a police state……”
Now that was funny!
Glad you think so Rick. I do too. Irony can be amusing
Illegal is illegal. What lead to it can vary and mitigate which is why our legal system allows degrees. Using local funds to address federal aspects of this broken mess is wrong. Calling children cockroaches is wrong. Referring to illegals as dog food is wrong.
Validating residency for locally funded services is right.- what would our landfill look like? Enforcing zoning regs is right.
Chris
You are right on the money about the money. One billion short at the state level and who knows how many millon here in PWC. Fairfax projecting $430 MILLION.
Schools,Public Safety and Human Services going to take the brunt of this double whammy.
So the financial ax will fall, as predicted. Does anyone else remember the many people who questioned the money were bascially told they were full of it and that all the savings from running off the ‘illegals’ would more than pay for the crack down?
Well if that is the case, then it is time for John and Corey to pony up and throw that savings towards the PWCPD, library system, At-Rish Youth and Family Services, Sheriff’s office just for starters. Those are just a few the departments that are going to be hit by the State Revenue Reduction.
I wonder if the savings dudes/immigration specialists have managed to amass over a million bux in savings from passing that resolution because that is what is needed to begin to repair our budget.
Juturna & MH,
I hope all of those with family in the Woodbridge Senior Day Care Program are prepared to be on the “chopping block”. When that program closes down like the one here in Manassas, I’m left wondering a few things. Namely, will the majority of the participants be left with only one facility ran by one church.
I believe it’s time for citizens to considering getting on a Budget Committee of their Supervisors. It’s really not that far off before it’s that time again.
Emma
I just wanted to make sure you knew the difference between Prince Wm and City of Manassas. I do not want my community linked to the likes of CS, JS or GL. BTW, I am not afraid of anything except people like you. Why are you such an angry person?
And that is just this weeks problem.
Chris,
You are correct. The budget process will begin again sometime in November for the 2010 budget. It is time to begin getting geared up. I am still appalled that the BOCS cut the adult day care program on the western end of the county.
City of Manassas residents need to be concerned with the BOCS budget, since the City pays big bucks for shared services. Manassas Park pays for shared services as well. In case people do not know the cities pay for Courts, Jails, Sheriff Office (I think), Mental Health/Mental Retardation (known as Community Services), Health Dept, Office on Aging.
Localities were already hit by state reductions for FY2009. Services for At Risk Youth and Families was one program where localities were asked to return some funding to the state.
This coming budget year will not be pretty.
Marie, 7. September 2008, 8:59
I am not afraid of anything except people like you. Why are you such an angry person?
Do you interpret disagreement in a debate as anger, Marie? Try not to take it so personally. You don’t have to run off in tears when someone disagrees with you. It doesn’t mean they’re angry at you.
Chris
Might be on an avelerated track this year!
Children please. The need to be right all the time is most unbecoming.