Prince William County Supervisors need to account for this phenomenon. What is the difference between the Counties? What accounts for this horrific occurrence of foreclosures which will most likely have lingering effects for a decade? Plain and simple, it’s the immigration resolution. The sooner Supervisors recognize this fact the faster we could turn this thing around. They have the power to stop the hemorrhaging but will they act on it? Do they prefer to see property values decline, real estate assessments plummet and the County’s budget completely destroyed? Perhaps so.
In my opinion, a more prudent course of action would be to not give anybody further reason to abandon a home. There’s never been a complete cost benefit analysis and it’s becoming pretty evident that any perceived savings from drops in ESoL enrollment have been more than off-set by devastating losses in our residential real estate market. These losses are causing extreme economic hardship among home owners who planned to use their home equity to finance their kid’s education, retirement or financing for business operations. Eventually, we will hit rock bottom but at what cost?
With all the budgetary cuts will the resolution be funded next year?
House overcrowding may not be pretty but you don’t have to worry about that house going into foreclosure when it’s got 5-10 breadwinners in the house.
House overcrowding would probably go a long way in clearing itself up if there was adequate affordable housing. Most of the undocumented immigrants aren’t looking for anything fancy. Just a small space with a bed. But instead of letting entrepreneurs meet the demand, our supervisors try to craft and shape our economy into oblivion.
KathyZ,
Take a look at these two documents they are the presentations by the PD & the ADC. It is among the possible cuts in both departments. I would suggest looking at all of these documents. There’s no other way to put it, but UFB!
Look at page 4.
http://www.pwcgov.org/documents/bocs/agendas/2008/1031/2-Gg.pdf
Look at page 5.
http://www.pwcgov.org/documents/bocs/agendas/2008/1031/2-Dd.pdf
Chris,
Do you think that it means 287g too?
Alanna,
It looks like the PD under the 20% cut scenario it reads. The Criminal Alien Unit would loose it’s 287(g) designation.
The ADC under the 20% cut scenario it reads. Eliminates the Immigration Initiative.
Clearly with a 20% cut, it would hack away even more at an already watered down version of the original resolution. So, with that being said I’m wondering will the 287(g) initiative at the state level come into play, and how so. Will that be something the state will also, cut out of it’s budget? Do you have the information on what was passed at the state level regarding ADC’s in the Commonwealth?
It’s important to remember all the money and time that’s been invested in the ICE training. That will have all been for NOTHING if the 287(g) is cut all together. We can NOT afford money to be wasted now more than ever.
Each and everyone of those presentations with the three case scenarios are depressing to say the very least. If the foreclosures continue at the current pace and the prices continue to drop they’ll need a tax rate increase that nobody will want to keep the bare minimums around, and forget about anything that’s not deemed an absolute necessity.
From my understanding it’s now a requirement at the state level. I am not sure what benefit we get by paying for this out of the County budget. Isn’t this now redundant? And if so, couldn’t that be cut right off the bat?
Alanna, as painful as it is, thank you for confronting us with the truth about what we are facing as a county. M-H, you too.
You know, home prices in PWC have dropped so much that I can afford to buy my first home a lot sooner than I ever thought. This is the only county anywhere NEAR my job and my family where I could do this.
I know those of you who have already invested in this county will not be happy to hear this, but I’m not so sure I want to join you. I am thinking we need to see some sign from our BOCS that they are ready to change course, that this year plus of horrific and selfish politicking instead of sound leadership will come to an end.
I am not sure if I’ve seen that sign. Have you?
NGL,
No, that’s my point. If Prince William had a more welcoming atmosphere it could go a long way to undoing this foreclosure nightmare.
The “atmosphere” can’t be attractive to businesses wanting to relocate here either. Although, the houses prices are bargain basement and should be very attractive.
Foreclosure is only part of the equation, though. I really think Greg Letiecq/Corey Stewart were totally ignorant of the coming economic crisis when they plotted to spring this anti-immigrant insanity on the county. There are larger issues to consider than demographic shifts in any particular neighbothood.
PWC has a ‘welcoming’ atmosphere! All you have to be is a legal US citizen. Is that too much to ask? I think everything will return to normal when the economy recovers, and you’ll once again see the housing prices shoot up. BTW, I see Manassas has adopted a tougher illegal alien policy. I would think that this pretty much proves that the anti-Resolution movement is dead in the water. Even when immigration wasn’t part of the last presidential debate it’s still on the minds of local citizens, and they’ve shown they mean business. Will you be crediting/blaming HSM for this turn of events?
Yes, Manasass has passed a new policy. The real question is will they be able to fund it, given the current economic situation? What good is Manassas’s policy if the ADC eliminates the immigration initiative?
Don’t look for those housing prices to shooting up anytime soon. The foreclosures are still happening at a record pace here in PWC.
We have many foreclosures because SO MANY homes were rented to illegal aliens. PWC was invaded.
And I’ll fight as hard as I can to prevent that from happening again.
Rick,
Are you saying you don’t think any illegal aliens may have purchased homes? How do you plan on preventing unscrupulous land lords from renting to whoever they want?
Trust me I don’t want my neighborhood to revert back to how it was about 18 months ago. However, I must say we’ve had more vehicles broken into and items stolen in the last couple of months then we’d had in years. This all started after the Neighborhood Watch signs went up on my street.
We should look to link the following to the Illegal Immigration resolution in PWC:
1. The whole Middle-East unrest thing.
2. The lack of decent pictures coming out of Hollywood lately.
3. The dissatisfaction with the nation’s electoral college-based voting system.
4. The resurgence of the “fairness doctrine”
I have confidence that we can draw a direct tie between these issues and the PWC illegal immigrant resolution.
“We have many foreclosures because SO MANY homes were rented to illegal aliens. PWC was invaded.”
Jesus Christ in a Christmas tree, between your nonsense and Alanna’s bent that the foreclosure crisis in PWC is the fault of the BOCS – you both have your agendas stuck so far up your noses you couldn’t see the truth for what it is if it sat on your faces.
It is as if you both stick your fingers in yoru ears and repeat “LALALALALALA I CAN’T HEAR YOU!!!!” when the fact is PWC had some of the fastest growth in the area combined with INEXPENSIVE housing and sub-prime loans packaged and sold as AAA loans to anyone and everyone who would buy them!
Funny – I don not see LOUDOUN county on that wee graph. I hear the problem is JUST AS BAD there (numbers comparative to ours in PWC), and they had no resolution. Selective cherrypicking of info I see….
Now, many of these people who bought the bad loans were of latino/hispanic descent. I can PROVE this by looking at the sale records for my neighborhood alone. Were they legal/illegal? Couldn’t say at all – and it really doesn’t matter. There are plenty of legal residents/citizens who have foreclosed as well. In fact – THAT seems to be the norm when we look at homes in Gainesville, Bristow…on the Linton Hall Corridor. Anyone can take a gander at Redfin and see for yourselves.
But some people just cannot handle the fact that this foreclosure crisis is nation-wide and is not unique to PWC – especially because of some damned immigration resolution. It is a combination of many different factors – not excluding the resolution and the plethora of renters – renters who congregated in Manassas Park.
The foreclosures were already happening months before the resolution was even introduced in PWC, and the two cities. I think the reason we have so many more compared to our neighboring counties is the fact PWC was affordable, decent schools, and safe community. This was very attractive for those wanting to buy their first home. The foreclosure crisis is a national crisis, and certainly NOT limited to our county. All walks of life and ethnic backgrounds have been effected by the foreclosures caused by all of the GREED at all levels.
The graph at the beginning of the thread is from the retreat agenda. I would like to know why Loudoun wasn’t included too. They are a bordering county and very similar to PWC. Both counties grew way too fast.
Chris: Is there an echo???
Your post wasn’t up when I started on mine. Sorry. I hope you don’t mind someone thinking like you?
I’m in the mid-county region and that’s not the case at all near me. Just as first time buyers bought more mortgages and flukier mortgages than they could afford, middle income buyers used ARMs to buy McMansions they couldn’t afford as well. Foreclosures are a nationwide problem, although it would be interesting to really know why we have such a disproportionate share here in PWC. I’m guessing that it is tied to affordability of the housing stock.
I think the BOCS dropped the ball when it came to watching our county’s economy. In shakey financial times, you don’t go scaring away part of your tax base…particularly when that demographic is keeping your aging, older subdivisions populated.
Someone explained the difference between the state 287(g) and what we have here in the county. They did an excellent job, I just don’t remember the finer details. I believe it was either Lucky Duck or Turn PW Blue.
At any rate, there is a big difference and we get more bank for our buck. I believe the state just notifies ICE. There is no MOU to come pick up anyone with an ICE detainer. Perhaps one of those gentlemen will come back and again iron out the details.
Chris:
“Your post wasn’t up when I started on mine. Sorry. I hope you don’t mind someone thinking like you?”
Not at all. In fact, it reassures me that I am not the only person who can see the larger picture. :>)
NMB, I am sure Chris doesn’t mind someone thinking like her. 😉
Here is Lucky Duck’s post regarding the state 287(g) from last summer. I am reposting it.
I didn’t make the chart. It came from George Mason University’s Center for Regional Analysis. I’m just reporting on it.
We heard residents speak last fall on this very subject who emphatically stated that they planned to abandon their homes if the resolution was passed. And in fact, I spoke to the issue prior to the October passage, if I’m not wrong in June/July 07 I warned the Supervisors.
So, let me get this straight the resolution is to be credited with a reduction of ESOL students but in no way, shape or form did any of those students live in homes that were abandoned or foreclosed?
More from last summer as per Lucky Duck
Alanna, I said the same thing here, several times. It appears that several of the supervisors and HSM want it both ways. They want to claim credit for fewer ESOL students and for neighborhoods being safter because there are fewer illegal immigrants (yes, that special Stewart/Stirrup/HSM clairvoyance that tells document status) roaming around. This same crew wants to deny any culpability for the number of foreclosures.
Amazing how some people can pick and choose what they will be held accountable for.
UFB!!!
For the record, I do not blame Stewart/Stirrup/HSM for the foreclosure crisis. They aren’t that big or important. I was merely pointing out how they want to claim credit for what they perceive as good and deny all responsibility for that which is perceived as detrimental.
I certainly do not think that immigration efforts by either individual or group helped the situation and in all probability has made it somewhat worse. There has to be a reason for the discrepancy in our numbers and surrounding areas. We have many more foreclosures in PWC than other jurisdictions. I think we need to ask ourselves why. Why were we impacted so much more severely?
I don’t buy the total innocence. Sounds like a not so gentle nudge to me.
Alanna-
I would agree with you that there may have been some marginal effect on foreclosures due to the “resolution.” (or, more appropriately, the hysteria that it caused–fomented by idiots on both sides of the debate). However, the foreclosure crisis is much bigger than anything PWC did or did not do. Look at Detroit, places in Florida and southern CA and other places. They have much, much worse foreclosure problems that PWC. The fact of the matter is that PWC (and Loudoun) was hottest during the boom. Now it’s coldest during the bust. That’s just the way it is.
“I didn’t make the chart. It came from George Mason University’s Center for Regional Analysis. I’m just reporting on it.”
Well then their analysis is piss poor, considering Loudoun was hit about JUST as hard as we were and no resolution there.
“We heard residents speak last fall on this very subject who emphatically stated that they planned to abandon their homes if the resolution was passed.”
So? So what? Do they account for every single foreclosed home? Every foreclosed townhome? A few people does not represent the many. I can show you a zillion cases of financial hardship that forced the latino/hispanic population out of PWC when the bubble burst. And amazingly enough, there are lily-white people in that pool as well losing their homes. There are pockets of foreclosures – some in lower-income neighborhoods where the lower-income workers lived, and middle to upper class neighborhoods where people bit off WAAAAAY more than they could chew.
“So, let me get this straight the resolution is to be credited with a reduction of ESOL students but in no way, shape or form did any of those students live in homes that were abandoned or foreclosed?”
And as we know the ESOL reduction in students was false data – no HUGE drop recorded. So people are losing their homes, but they aren’t leaving en masse. So can it with the “The Resolution caused the housing crisis in PWC” nonsense. Many factors have caused it – of which the Resolution is just a small part.
Well, certainly all homes that are foreclosed have an economic impact and not only for their home but all homes within a 5 mile radisu as well.
I believe Alanna is saying what the rest of us are saying. The resolution contributed, but did not cause.
NMB, Prince William County is far ahead of Loudoun. Loudoun has been hit, and hit hard, but not as hard as Prince William. I am looking for the stats now. For starters, PWC had a head start on affordable housing.
Finally, we are saying that supervisors and HSM cannot have it both ways.
Here is an article comparing Loudoun to PWC:
http://www.loudountimes.com/news/2008/aug/19/countys-july-foreclosure-rate-2nd-highest-state/
Foreclosure rates
Prince William: 1 out of every 103 homes
Loudoun: 1 out of every 169 homes
Fairfax: 1 out of every 226 homes
National average: 1 out of every 464 homes
Source: RealtyTrac.com
Has anyone ever heard the saying “salt in a wound”. The immigration resolution and the surrounding rhetoric was that very salt. Would PWC have suffered some high forclosure rates, to be sure, but seriously folks, we aren’t just a little off the charts from everyone else, we are in “outerspace” comparitively speaking. What variable could account for that difference? Hmmm, doesn’t take a “rocket” scientist. What sets us apart is the high profile tension created by Greg, Corey, et al regarding “illegal immigration” and their “aiders and abetters”!
“What variable could account for that difference? Hmmm, doesn’t take a “rocket” scientist. What sets us apart is the high profile tension created by Greg, Corey, et al regarding “illegal immigration” and their “aiders and abetters”!”
Okay so prove it.
Elena-
There are many other factors setting PWC apart from other communities. Namely, it had the most opportunity for speculators and most rapidly rising home values. Yet, at the same time, it was still the most affordable area (relatively speaking) in the region. If you don’t believe me, look at the county’s economic information, where they track the median home prices. This created a situation where people kept buying beyond their means, hoping price would continue to appreciate so they could flip. Once prices started to decline, it was a snowball. I believe that the anti-immigrant hysteria may have played a small role in increasing the number of foreclosures. But if you think the magnitude of the situation is solely related to the one “illegal immigration variable,” I think you are being blinded by your dislike of Greg, Corey, et al and their “aiders and abetters.
Where are the millions PWC is saving from hospitals and schools now that the resolution has moved all the illegals out? Isn’t that what S&S have been claiming? Pony up the cash boys…. THat would be a good question at citizens time.
–PWC has a ‘welcoming’ atmosphere!–
PWC isn’t welcoming to anyone whose first language isn’t English and who looks brown. You have our local government and hate groups to thank for that.
Food,
As I stated before, the irresponsible governing of Corey, while taking cues from Greg and FAIR, was the nail in the coffin. Clearly we have divergent opinions on this matter.
Bubba,
Well, let’s see, we did have an unprecedented drop in ESOL enrollment, although not has high as Corey, John, and Greg had been espousing, it was a drop nonetheless. Now, did these people live on the streets? Isn’t it only common sense to attribute their exodus to fear? People talk about how their neighborhoods are better, how multiple families living in homes have now vanished, that forclosures signs have replaced these aggraviting situations. Additionally, you had business owners, shortly after the resolution, talking about business decling sharply. Entire stip malls on the East end, once vibrant with new hispanic oriented businesses, closing down, never to re-open. This happened PRIOR to this newest economic meltdown in the past few months. However, the reality is that, just like there was no formal anaysis prior to the resolution, there is no follow up study either. Nothing like democracy at its worst.
Bubba,
That was for one month, July, I believe, overall, PWC has been leading the “pack “. I will see if I can find those other stats for you.
“PWC isn’t welcoming to anyone whose first language isn’t English and who looks brown. You have our local government and hate groups to thank for that.”
Odd then that the Spanish-speaking realtors and the illegal alien population targeted this particular area for takeover a few years ago. Bad choice i guess. Hope they enjoy Fairfax and Montgomery County better.
Chris asked : “How do you plan on preventing unscrupulous land lords from renting to whoever they want?”
I don’t know. But I do know that the landlords around me have been renting to citizens who are generally family-oriented and good neighbors in recent months.
I think that having a reputation among elitist liberals as “racist” is a good enough tradeoff balanced off against quality of life and public safety. As far as economics and home prices go, you watch and see if you don’t see an exodus of taxpayers from Fairfax and Montgomery County and so forth into Manassas during the next year or so.
I believe “food for thought” has the most rational and reasonable argument of all of you. None of you have any proof for your “cause and effect” relationships, just rampant speculation.
The bottom line is people who could not afford loans, took out loans and were unable to pay those loans. Those people usually are people who lack substantial cash reserves, and are generally first time home buyers. There is no doubt a significant number of those first time home buyers were at some point in the last 25 years part of a huge 45-50 million population bulge, caused by “illegal” people entering the country or legal people entering the country and becoming “illegal” by staying, that set up the conditions for a speculative “bubble” market, fueled by lost cost 8A funding programs and institutions like Freddie-Mac and Fannie Mae. That is what causes foreclosure, not the rediculous claim that police officers stopping people at traffic stops and asking them for their immigration status, in order to find and locate “illegal” immigrants can cause them to “lose” their homes. Where is the “logic” in that?
The only people who would stop paying on a home and “leave it” because they are afraid of a question by a police officer are those people who are actually “illegal”. I doubt that is very many people. Most od those people are living crowded 10-15 people to a home, and that is a different community problem entirely, and another source of crime and corruption. If those questions from police oficers cause people to leave PWC who are “illegal” I am all for that. “illegal” people cause nothing but problems and misery on the majority of the population in the local community most affected by their “illegal” behavior.
Why would any of you not support a 287g program, whose purpose is to locate and deport “illegal” criminals? Are you saying you want those criminals here in PWC county, praying on your children and innocent adults who do not break the law?
If you do, you are as looney as the rest of the people who support “illegals”.
“Preying” not “Praying”, humor the irony of that.
Elena:
“Well, let’s see, we did have an unprecedented drop in ESOL enrollment, although not has high as Corey, John, and Greg had been espousing, it was a drop nonetheless.”
Well, okay so some did leave – but not en masse like was originally stated. An a drop in ESOL enrollment is a problem – why?
“Now, did these people live on the streets? Isn’t it only common sense to attribute their exodus to fear? ”
No. Since the numbers of enrollments in ESOL aren’t AS GRAND as have been shown, it seems a few did leave (reasons perhaps because of “fear” or perhaps simple economics….), but MANY DIDN’T. Their actual physical residence may have changed, but they may still be in the same schools/districts. The “Fear” factor you keep citing is one based purely upon speculation. Not unbased – but still speculative. Whereby the hard, cold financial data is out there for all to see. Case in point. In doing a study of our neighborhood, we found out one home that went into foreclosure is owned by a family in the neighboring development. The last name is Latino (I’ll refrain from actually posting it). They bought the first home in our neighborhood in 2005 for 530K. They bought their second in April of this year…and as public records show – they let tehir first proprty lapse into foreclosure. Seems as if they got a better deal and a better mortgage on the 2nd home and let the primary property slip into foreclosure. Now – they STAYED in the community. Albeit with fearmongers running lose.
“People talk about how their neighborhoods are better”
Well, mine is – unless you look at the declining housing values.
“how multiple families living in homes have now vanished”
Yeah – BECAUSE THEY COULDN’T PAY THE MORTGAGE! Happened a dozen times in my little neighborhood alone! Where they went? Who knows…. But if you look at the public records you see they left shortly after their ARM’s reset.
“Additionally, you had business owners, shortly after the resolution, talking about business decling sharply.”
And that IS a travesty. I pass Casablanca on a daily basis and I see how it is hurting. BUt you know – people overall aren’t spending like they used to. When economies get depressed it is the basic wage-earner/hourly minimum workers who feel it first. They stop eating out (if they could) and everything is cut back to bare necessity.
NOT TO MENTION – we have a whole series of new shops going in close to where I live. We have the old Weiss shopping center, then the new one built next to it that never filled up, and now another nwe center has partially opened with a dollar store and a barber shop…..further down the street is a new Harris Teeter being built. If you ask me, it is development GONE WILD.
“Entire stip malls on the East end, once vibrant with new hispanic oriented businesses, closing down, never to re-open. ”
Is that because of the exodus, or perhaps because of a slew of newer, posher developments that compete with it?
“However, the reality is that, just like there was no formal anaysis prior to the resolution, there is no follow up study either.”
Well, there are just so many factors to consider. And while the Resolution DID have an impact, and mostly a very negative one, it isn’t the only reason for the economic hardship the county is facing.
Those of you who do have a cash reserve can thank your lucky stars that this crisis is “worst” in PWC, as it is going to create a housing purchase opportunity in about 1-2 years that will allow most of you to get into a home of a size and stature many of you could never get into at “bubble” prices. The market is making a correction as a result of criminal fraud and stupidity in the housing and banking industry. If you survive this depression with cash, you will be able to get one of those large cheap homes and ride one of the greatest post depression markets you’ve ever been blessed to be in and PWC will likely lead the profit deltas. Then you’ll be thanking Corey Stewart for returning your community to “normal” growth and financial opportunity conditions for growth, rather than decay into a slum surrounded by crime and criminal politicians competing for ethnic, gender, racial and religious group votes.
I love it when white dudes with no cultural awareness who often spew hatred toward minorities call PWC a “welcoming place.” How would they even know? They only associate with people who think that such behavior is welcoming, and never with anyone who would explain to them otherwise.
Yeah, it’s for bigoted white dudes to tell us what “welcoming” looks and smells like.
The resolution has and never will do anything more than just find people who are “illegal”, especially “illegal criminals” and remove them from our county, and hopefully from our country.
Anyone who doesn’t want that is an idiot of the highest order.
I’m sure bigoted “NGLs” know better what “welcome” means who spew hatred toward majorities.
Michael, I get your drift, the destruction of PWC’s economy is a wonderful break for people who haven’t bought into the real estate market yet. I’m thrilled. But I don’t think the average home owner in PWC is thrilled.
In short, Corey Stewart/Greg Leteicq’s anti-immigrant frenzy has made ripped off the current residents and voters in PWC, and cleared the way for a wave of less wealthy home owners, many from minority communities, who are eager to buy a piece of the American dream. I hope that we have more of these times, and less of the real estates speculators who buy homes up and then rent them out to whoever (as Chris is concerned they will do) until the price goes up, if it goes up.
Many years ago, the same areas that were so “horrible” because there were many Latinos were considered “horrible” because there was rampant crime and drug abuse/dealers. Dealing with Latinos in the neighborhood (who admittedly may not have followed basic rules of decorum but were not drug dealers) was too much for a lot of old folks to deal with, and thus the anti-immigration frenzy of 2007.
But if things revert back to how there were before the Latinos started renting these speculator-owned homes, I doubt the frantic old people will be any happier.
Michael, I wasn’t calling you bigoted. I think you have major hang-ups about race and ethnicity and religion. But mostly I think you are just insecure about being left out. You don’t realize that a multi-ethnic society is INCLUSIVE OF EVERYONE, including white males. In fact, you’ll be a huge part of our society until the day you die. You have nothing to fear from diversity. We all welcome each other. That’s the idea. The point though, is that no one is excluded either. And that’s the only bone I have to pick with others who post here.