A guest post by Katherine Gotthardt!  Thank for your very thoughtful contribution regarding this very important life issue for so many young people who were brought to this country as  children.

According to Inside Higher Ed, “The California Supreme Court has agreed to hear an appeal of a lower court’s ruling that placed in doubt the legality of a state law granting in-state tuition rates to some immigrant students who lack the legal authority to be residents of the state, the Los Angeles Times reported. While the California Supreme Court’s ruling would only be binding in that state, it could influence debates in other states with similar laws. Higher education officials and advocates for immigrants have worried that the lower court’s ruling, if it stands, could make it impossible for many of the students covered by the law to remain in college, given the large difference in tuition rates for in-state and out-of-state students and the limited aid dollars available to students who are not legal U.S. residents.” (http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/01/05/qt)

The LA Times article says, “The California Supreme Court case revolves around a 2001 state law, known as AB 540, that permits the tuition breaks. Under the law, illegal immigrant students qualify for in-state rates if they attended a California high school for three years, graduated here and signed an affidavit saying they will apply for permanent residency as soon as they are eligible. The law has remained in effect during the legal challenge.” (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-immigtuition5-2009jan05,0,3248207.story)

Before considering this case, it is important to understand the admissions and financial aid systems.

First, Admissions officers look for certain criteria when admitting new students. The students who have already been admitted and continue to be meet these standards and indeed exceed some of them. These students work hard and easily pay back to society what was invested in them. “Ethan Schulman, who represents the University of California defended the benefit as a way for illegal immigrant students who have excelled in the state’s high schools to attend college.” ( http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-immigtuition5-2009jan05,0,3248207.story)

Second, students cannot qualify for financial aid without submitting at least two years’ tax returns. If the student is under 24, s/he must submit parents’ tax forms. If over 24, s/he must submit his/her own. Students who cannot produce tax documents do not qualify for financial aid.

Third, establishing residency means living in a state for a particular length of time. Residency does not equal citizenship, nor does citizenship equal residency.

Finally, one of the most popular complaints about allowing too many immigrants to enter the country, legally and otherwise, is that we are creating and supporting an underclass. But what happens if we BAR them from class? Are we not just shooting ourselves in the foot?

“Matias Ramos, who graduated from UCLA last year, said the out-of-state costs exceed the annual family income for many illegal immigrant students. Ramos, an illegal immigrant from Argentina, said that such students who attend public California colleges and universities are accepted based on their academics, talents and involvement and shouldn’t be penalized because of a broken immigration system that leaves them few options.” (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-immigtuition5-2009jan05,0,3248207.story)
Ethan Schulman said he recognized that the controversy isn’t just over the relatively small number of undocumented students who receive in-state tuition in CA. “The larger issue is a political issue, and that is how undocumented immigrants who live and work in our state are to be treated,” Schulman said. (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-immigtuition5-2009jan05,0,3248207.story)

One thing is for certain—no matter what the outcome of this case, the problem will not be fixed merely by addressing postsecondary policy.

63 Thoughts to “Citizenship does not equate to residency when in comes to college tuition rates!”

  1. Moon-howler

    Thank you for doing this Katherine. I know you are busy but you did a wonderful job. I am all for educating deserving students. Thank you for saying yes to our request to write the article for this thread. You didn’t even make Elena, Alanna or me beg too hard.

  2. Elena

    You know M-H, on one hand “illegals” are worthless ignorant uneducated cretens, or so the “rule of law” proponents would have us “illegal alien apologists” believe, stealing all the menial jobs for slave wages, but then you have their children, striving, working to become real productive high wager earners and even THAT isn’t good enough to account for some positive saving grace?

  3. SecondAlamo

    “Finally, one of the most popular complaints about allowing too many immigrants to enter the country, legally and otherwise, is that we are creating and supporting an underclass. But what happens if we BAR them from class? Are we not just shooting ourselves in the foot?”

    Yes, and that is why we have to prevent illegal immigration in the first place. If your store has been robbed twice, then what should you do? Increase security, or just give money away to prevent them from robbing you? The second solution is no solution for when the money runs out they’ll be back to robbing you.

  4. SA, please review the final sentence of this post:

    “One thing is for certain—no matter what the outcome of this case, the problem will not be fixed merely by addressing postsecondary policy.”

    Ladies, it was a pleasure to contribute again. Know that I DO read this blog but do not have time to respond as often as I did in the past.

  5. Moon-howler

    SA, glad to see you are back. I don’t know why we would take good students and charge them more to attend college. Step back from the illegal/legal immigrant issue for just a moment. We educate foreign students from all over the world. Then the students generally take this education back to their own countries. China is an example. Why would we excessively charge a good student who is all probability is going to stay in the United States with this education?

    These same students have probably had families paying state taxes, or at least state sales tax at a bare minimum. It is another investment we should not be turning our backs on. There are very few gang members on college campuses.

  6. Correction on my initial post: at least ONE year’s tax returns are required in order to qualify for financial aid. This includes W2’s. However, schools may require more than one year and additional documentation as well.

  7. Turn PW Blue

    Actually, the crux of this case is the very definition of residency. You say it simply means being in the state. The key point is whether it means what you say or whether it means living in the state *legally* for a set period of time.

    I have to admit that I struggle with extending in-state tuition rates to those who “lack legal authority” to be present in the state. In-state rates are subsidized by taxpayer contributions to the system. Whether a student is eligible for financial aid or not is irrelevant to the argument. By granting in-state rates you are giving financial aid.

    I am all for fixing a broken immigration system, but to use a broken immigration system as an excuse doesn’t serve anyone’s purposes. Taking money out of the pockets of legal citizens and legal immigrants doesn’t serve us well either in this case. We are not talking services that are a matter of life or death (denying life-saving health care to illegal immigrants for example).

    The statement Matias Ramos makes is right on–and I see as a counter to his own argument. Students are admitted to colleges and universities on their merits. The tuition they are charged is a completely different story. I’m not saying those who “lack legal authority” to be in California should be denied entry in state schools, but I do not believe they should be granted the benefit of state-subsidized in-state tuition. Many people, legal or otherwise, face tough choices when it comes to picking a college. Many have the talent, the accomplishments, and the involvement to be outstanding college students but end up forgoing college because of cost. Ramos is not being penalized by a broken immigration system. He was accepted at UCLA. I could have been accepted at UCLA as well but it doesn’t mean the university has a duty to provide me with subsidized tuition so I can go there.

    M-H, when we admit students from China or India to our universities, they are paying the full out-of-state rates.

  8. Moon-howler

    I need to bring the arguement to Virginia because I cannot speak to the California system. It works differently than Virginia and gives much more of a discount, if I am not mistaken.

    I am not sure that a student without documentation would even be admitted to GMU, JMU, UMC, UVA, Tech, or any of the major schools. However, I do believe they can attend NOVA. If a student has lived in Virginia all these years, done well in school, and is interested in academic persuits, I have a real problem with them as residents of Virginia not being charged Virginia rates.

    TPWB, you are right, of course, about foreign students paying full rates if their families remain in the country of origin so my intrusion of that point was not a good one.

  9. Elena

    But TPWB,
    If you LIVE in a state, pay rent or morgtage, buy food, buy gas, buy clothes, YOU DO pay taxes. It isn’t as though just because you don’t have legal status you exist in a vacuum. I have on more than one occassion in my life, had a contractor bargain that if I pay cash or write the check directly to them, they will give a discount. Well, obviously that means they are probably NOT paying taxes, and YET, they still contribute to the economy.

  10. Elena

    Let me clarify, these contractors were NOT immigrants.

  11. Turn PW Blue

    Then, Elena, you wouldn’t have a problem extending in-state tuition benefits to someone who lives in Maryland but works in Virginia, buys lunch in Virginia every now and then, and maybe shops at Tysons? They’ve paid taxes in Virginia. Why shouldn’t they receive the benefits of subsidized in-state tuition?

    Without falling completely into the “the law is the law” camp, there is a point when it is necessary to recognize that someone is present illegally and should, thus, not be eligible to receive certain perks that come with legal presence. Virginia law allows those with legal immigrant status who meet the domicile requirements under the law to qualify for in-state tuition.

  12. Pat.Herve

    If someone is in the US without proper status, then they how could they be a resident of a state? They should be required to get a Student visa, if it is required from their home country, and should also pay out of state tuition.

    If I go to a foreign country for an education, I have to pay the going rate – fair is fair.

    There are some residents of VA who are being denied admittance into VT because they are taking larger number of OOS students.

  13. Hello, this is Matias Ramos, quoted in the article, here to respond to Turn PW Blue:

    First off, in-state tuition is not a subsidy. California provides subsidies in the form of Cal Grants, institutional financial aid, and loans, but not in the pricing ranges of in-state and out-of-state costs. All of those tax-funded benefits are not available to undocumented students. Tuition is purely a revenue, and the only reason they exist is to max out revenue from wealthy out-of-staters seeking to go to college to another state. No revenue from undocumented students would exist if they were effectively “pushed out” by eliminating their access to in-state rates. In addition, 33% of a UC student’s tuition payment goes to create institutional aid (university-based grants) to which they do not have access, once again.

    And in terms of being ‘penalized’, I referred to the fact that whether we go to college or not, undocumented students do not have a way within the immigration system to regularize their status based on their own merits and character. That is why we need the DREAM Act.

    The worse part of it is scoundrels like you who claim to be “all for fixing a broken immigration system” but only look at their tax dollars and ignore the human plight of millions of members of your society.

  14. mike

    When I received my MA in Statistics from the U of Minn, there were 22 Chinese and Korean nationals pursuing MAs and PhDs in the same and similar fields. Ask them why they chose a school like Minn, and the answers were always the same: because it’s FREE! When I was pursuing my BA at a top 5 new england LAC, more than 75% of the foreign students were there on 4-year rides–FREE!
    I even met an American from Bulgaria in Minnesota, who had spent only a week in the US prior to beginning college. 1 week! And just like most F1 students, he plans on working for 2 years and returning to Bulgaria and their respective homelands.
    I’ve also met undumented students who were brought here as infants. They went through K-12, worked hard, excelled in their studies, and then hit this immigration brickwall at 18. After investing in their education, why would a state be now so eager to shun and purge them, when they’re most likely bound to stay in the state after college and contribute (in tax and other forms) for the remainder of their adult lives.
    So.. Which group you you rather help? The F1s who would take their education elsewhere? The American-born Bulgarian who has no attachment to the country and doesn’t have any desire to stay and contribute? Or the person who through no fault of his is undocumented, and the law provides no means for him/her to adjust their status?
    Why do people just reduce the whole discussion to “the law is the law” or “instate tuition” when it seems what they really want to say is: I don’t care how old you were when you were brought here, and I want you out, but I don’t want to appear heartless, so I look for other reasons to keep you from achieving your goals.

  15. Matias, I am honored you stopped in for this discussion! (I wrote this thread, by the way.) WOW. Thank you!

    I can assure you that most of the scoundrels aren’t on this blog. I’d be happy to show you were most of them hang out, however. : ) I think you will find us pretty reasonable.

    Outside of higher education, what would you suggest to fix the immigration system?

  16. Lucky Duck

    I don’t think of Turn PW Blue as a “scoundrel”. While I don’t always agree with him/her, they always seem to present their arguments in a clear manner with respect to others. So lets knock off the name calling on your first visit to a blog. Give to get respect.

    With regards to your reply, Tax funded benefits should NOT be available to non-citizens. Sorry, tax benefits should stay for legal residents and citizens only, in my opinion. Also, you’re incorrect in assuming that people who attend out of State colleges are “Wealthy” as you write. Sometimes the choice has to do with career choice and classes offered.

    While we should and must fix our “broken immigration system”, we all should look at our tax dollars. Despite what you feel and write, I should have a say in how my taxes are spent, even if they are used to help the plight of others. Its America, I get my say as do other voters.

  17. Moon-howler

    Don’t forget that many of these students trying to go to college were brought here as very little children and CANNOT process paper work on their own until they are 18 years old. And we know what happens when people attempt to correct status in today’s immigration climate.

    These children often have been all the way through our education system while their parents are working fairly low paying jobs that often don’t have college as a vision or goal. Do we tell these kids sorry, you can’t even go to NOVA?

    I want to encourage Virginia students who do well in school and apply themselves to go on to higher learning environments. If they cannot pay for it, will they continue? Most immigrants go to school until the money runs out. Then they stop. Such a waste.

    If you live in Virginia for 12 years while you go to school, you are a Virginian, imho.

  18. Moon-howler

    Welcome Matias. I am glad you joined us. What you just explained is the reason I brought my side of the argument back to Virginia. I just don’t understand the California system at all. Both my stepsons went to school there but I wasn’t involved and it goes right over my head.

    I stand by my feelings that students who go through the Virginia school system are Virginians. I don’t feel they are anything else. We should educate them also, regardless of the status of their parents. The sins of the father and all….are not visited upon the child. We cannot throw away thousands of young Virginians who want to become educated, have proven their academic worth, because of issues like citizenship.

    If it is the Dream Act that is needed to ensure that all worthy students get an opportunity to go to school as in-state students then bring it on!

    Matias, we hope you will become a regular. BTW, Turn PW Blue is not a scoundrel. He is a good guy. We just happen to disagree on this one. And I never win an argument with him but I think this one is worthy of a good healthy fight between friends.

  19. Hello all, sorry about the ‘scoundrel’ comment, but I originally wrote the response as a post for my blog, and for that reason I guess I reverted to my writing style, which tends to be snarky. My apologies. If anything, I do share with TPWB that we both want to turn our counties Blue (I am in Orange County, CA). A similar sentiment goes to the “wealthy out-of-staters” comment, which I admit was a generalization. Nonetheless, university officials DO see these out-of-staters primarily as a source of revenue. Link: http://www.latimes.com/news/la-me-outofstate4-2009jan04,0,3267517.story

    Lucky Duck, I specifically tend to use terms like “societal members” because I realize that the revenues our country produces are not solely a byproduct of income taxes, but of how the system runs. Check out this article from the nonpartisan ILW.com: http://www.ilw.com/articles/2009,0107-gittelson.shtm

    Here’s an excerpt: “While of course these people pay taxes, (and they would pay even more taxes after CIR), their tax contributions are minute compared to the taxes paid by:

    — The corporations that the undocumented workers generate revenue for.
    — The additional legal co-workers that owe their income, in whole or in part, to the presence of the undocumented workers that work with them, (often at much higher tax rate salaries or commissions then the undocumented lower wage employees).
    — The owners or shareholders of the companies that they work for, (again, at much higher tax rates because of much larger incomes).
    — The property taxes paid by the business’s that the undocumented work for.
    — The taxes paid by the companies, owners, and the employees of business’s that produce revenue by working with the companies that employ the undocumented workers, (grocery chains, for example, that sell produce picked by undocumented workers).”

    I wrote a bunch, but thanks everyone for the welcome and check out my site too. You all are Real Virginians!

  20. Lucky Duck

    Welcome Matias, you will find lively discussions on this blog. While everybody does not always agree with everyone else, there is lively and for the most part, respectable debate. Generalizations will (in most cases) get you a question about your source, data or reference material which your statements are based upon. Unless its your opinion, then you’ll get a debate.

    By the way, I attended an out of State college my last year of studies because of the program offered. I paid out of State tuition and I was not wealthy.

  21. Moon-howler

    I think a lot of colleges and universities take a certain percent of out of state students so they can soak them for the extra money. I know UVA used to do it and pretty much admitted to it. You don’t get that Ivy League of the South moniker if youi aren’t bringing in the out of staters.

    That’s ok about saying ‘scoundrel’ Matias. I am pretty much a scoundrel even though I want to educate people. Bad habit of mine. I hope to check out your website this evening. Meanwhile, make yourself at home.

    We cover but are certainly not limited to immigration topics as well as local, state and national events. With DC being only 25 miles away, national is sometimes a little more local than we might like.

  22. Moon-howler

    Welcome Mike. I think you got tangled up in mediation and we didn’t welcome you. Look around feel free to comment. Your comments won’t be held up now.

  23. shai

    thanks, Moon. It’s refreshing to see honest discussions without the familiar language from FAIR, CIS, ALIPAC drones.

  24. Rick Bentley

    There is no way any or many states are going to touch this issue any time soon … too many Americans are FED UP with rewarding illegal behavior.

    I challenge the assertion that students have to be 24 before they can qualify based on their own tax returns. My understanding is that you can establish independence at any age past 18.

    That rule and that system should apply to illegal aliens’ kids just as it does to kids of American citizens. Remember us? The ones who pay most of the taxes here and have always been expected to follow the normal rules about taxes, residency, etc.? Who can’t just break the law at will and then claim “No habla Englais”?

    Enough of creating two sets of rules, one for those of us who were born here and play by normal rules, another for those who don’t even belong here. Enough of it. No more of it.

    This situation is not changing anytime soon. Because unlike the majority of this blog, the majority of Americans don’t want you here if you’re not legal – and if your parents aren’t, we don’t want them. Illegal residency is not just some question of red tape. It is a serious matter. Anyone here illegally should certainly understand that “in-state tuition” for their kids is NOT an option.

    Do-gooders like Elena ask “even THAT isn’t good enough to account for some positive saving grace”. Hey where are the crocodile tears for all the US kids whose parents won’t help them get to college? Who have to establish independence and do it for themselves? MANY US kids are caught between cracks and struggling. HELP THEM FIRST. Stop rewarding people for doing wrong. Don’t make a special rule for children of illegal aliens. They are not shut out of the system. They are just caught in the same situation as many US kids who have no racial identity-based advocacy groups crying and whining for them.

    No more of this Two Americas business. One country, one set of rules. Regardless of how much you whine. Either we all get to ignore the established rules, or we all don’t.

  25. Moon-howler

    Rick, what I am talking about is in-state tuition. I want all kids who live in the state to get in-state tuition. That isn’t 2 sets of rules. That’s one set of rules. You live here for a year, you are eligible.

    Those immigrant kids are here through no fault of their own. They are Americans in every way but that piece of paper. You have no freaking say so where you are born.

    I don’t want to hear any claptrap about this being an incentive to their parents either. Most illegal immigrant parents could give a rat’s ass about education. It does them no good. They do not work the kinds of jobs where advanced education is of much help. Often the cost of the in-state vs out-of-state tuition makes the difference in whether a kid goes to school or doesn’t go to school. Why throw up road blocks for kids who have had the odds against them anyway?

    Same rules for everyone. I believe in good behavior. You live here all your live and work hard in school, then you get to go on the cheap just like your little brother who was born here. Prove your residency. No problemo.

  26. shai

    Rick, have you ever met with an undocumented immigrant student? What drives me nuts sometimes is how people like you sit back, sulk, and instead of using some pragmatic realism to approach this issue, they resign to puerile, inchoate, and demeaning language. “no habla englais”… what is that supposed to infer?
    Yes, we’ve heard it a million times- we have laws on the books. No, America hasn’t rewarded any undocumented immigrant. And more importantly, these laws are a bit antiquated and doesn’t fairly address the complex issues of a broken system. You have a system to awards several hundred thousand greencards in a lottery each year, yet we’d have people like you complain that Americans are being squeezed out of opportunities. A Cuban landing on shore gets preferencial treatment, but God forbid an illegal immigrant try with all the odds against him attempt to go to college, we must apply the rule of law, and erect every imaginable wall around him because THAT is the principled way; THAT is what’s right and just for our society.
    No one is asking for a handout, or to be awarded what isn’t theirs to have.

  27. shai

    I was brought here at 14 by well-meaning parents who didn’t know any better, and before long I’d fallen out of status. We rented, and my dad owning a trans-Atlantic business allowed me to attend boarding school. Oh, yes, before I continue, Im not hispanic…not every “illegal” is. After a 1490 SAT, two 5s on Math IIC, and Biology, and 3 SATIIs all over 700…and I’m stating all this for this reason: I earned my spot at Middlebury in VT! I wasn’t rewarded the spot; I didn’t take anyone’s place (these schools are self-selective to begin with), and I didn’t get any federal or state assistance to go there.
    I’m out of status, dad’s now broke, and can only rely on my college’s grant package. 4 years later, as an Econ/Polisci double major, I had my degree. And today, after a MA in stats, I work risk arbitrage as a trader. I also got to adjust my stays through my sister after a long, costly, and taxing process. Along the way, I’ve met people like me including some brilliant kids with acceptances to Amherst, Williams, and two who couldn’t start at Princeton because of their status. And I’m sure there’s countless more. I had been very fortunate, but most of us (yes, I still feel like one) don’t get any chance.
    My mother worked for years and bought her own home. She’s paid taxes every year since we first arrived, and trust me, it can be expensive down in Jersey, but there are so many who are in the situation she had paying into the system and not repeaing any rewards. Not everyone is Mexican or Hispanic. No one asks for handouts. But if you listened to the Ricks of this world you would think all undocumented immigrants are pests raiding our precious coffers with brazen disregard for the rule of law, and have the impudence to make outrageous demands on our society. If it were left to him, where would I have been after high school? I certainly wouldn’t be able to (painfully) pay my share of NY state and city taxes, or federal taxes, or enjoin in efforts to improve our society. Learn something about these people before making untrue statements to dehumanize them.

  28. –I challenge the assertion that students have to be 24 before they can qualify based on their own tax returns. My understanding is that you can establish independence at any age past 18.–

    Rick, that information comes right from the Federal Financial Aid website. Look at all the criteria you need to be considered independent: http://www.fafsa.ed.gov/help/fftoc01k.htm

    Shai, thanks for visiting and sharing your story. You are certainly not alone. The more people who tell their stories, the better.

  29. Turn PW Blue

    Actually, Matias, in-state tuition carries with it a government subsidy. Yes, people can apply for additional subsidies through Cal Grants, but in-state tuition is on its own a subsidized rate.

    Let’s look at the in-state cost of tuition for your alma mater, UCLA (found at http://www.registrar.ucla.edu/fees/undergradgradfees08-09.pdf). Take a look at the line item for “Educational Fee.” Does it really cost less to educate someone from in-state versus out-of-state? Who do you think makes up the nearly $600 difference between the two amount? Hmm, maybe California tax payers?

    According to the College Board, the average cost of undergraduate studies at a private school is just over $25,000 per year. Since most private colleges are making exorbitant profits, that’s probably a pretty good estimate of what an unsubsidized undergraduate experience costs. UCLA in-state tuition is just over $8,300 per year. So where’s the nearly $17,000 coming from? Hmm, state taxpayer subsidies to UCLA maybe?

    Finally, to counter your argument that no revenue would be realized if undocumented students didn’t get in-state rates (because you are assuming they would not attend the school at out-of-state rates), you need to go back to your economics test. Last I checked, demand for entry in UCLA and other California state schools was pretty high. A slot not taken by an undocumented student would surely not remain unfilled by an similarly qualified legal citizen or documented immigrant, so the lost revenue argument is specious.

  30. Elena

    Welcome Matias,

    Thank you for visiting Anti! TPWB is a good person so I am glad you took the opportunity to clarify your response to him 🙂 As I read the exchanges here, I go back to one simple thought, what if that were me, denied the ability to go to college even though I was clearly demonstrating the attributes to be a great productive citizen. The reality is that we must deal with this very real life issue. If on one hand people are concerned about the ability of the undocumented to fully contribute to society, isn’t college the way to balance that concern out, to help lift people up to become full contributers to society? Historically, isn’t that they way the immigrant story works, parents work hard, oftentimes without white collar skills in hopes that they can offer their children a better life? As far as I can tell the crisis revolving around college isn’t that kids< “american kids”, are being denied access because they can’t get it, the crisis is that parents can’t afford tuition! I guess I just do not see the issue with allowing children to better themselves, there seems to be an intrinsic value to ALL of us if we lift them up! Go dream act!

  31. Elena

    Shai,
    Thank you for sharing you story. It is important to remember that we all share a common bond 🙂

  32. Elena

    Good morning TBWD,

    I am wondering, what is the alternative to keeping these kids from improving their lives? Is one child more important than the other just because of their parents status?
    I worry that we get caught up in the “argument” sometimes without looking underlying importance of the issue. I know parents that worked their tails off to send their kids to out of state schools, one friend sent his kid to VT even though they were maryland residents. As to your question, where your HOME is should be your residency ,and as a matter of fact, when I spoke to some head honcho at UVA, when the story broke about the student being denied entry(not true by the way), he explained how they were handling it. First, he said this was a new issue to deal with as the kids whose parents came after anmnesty in the 80’s were the ones caught in this crisis. The school WILL look at residency of parents, i.e. mortgage or rent to determine qualifications for in-state or out of state tuition rates. Their domicile must be in the state of va, that simple.

  33. Rick Bentley

    “Is one child more important than the other just because of their parents status?”

    Sigh.

    Firstly that arguement can be applied to allow any kid to attend at an in-state rate anywhere they want.

    It can also be applied across national boundaries. Perhaps you would like us to provide a subsidy for kids who choose to go to school anywhere in the world.

  34. Rick Bentley

    “If on one hand people are concerned about the ability of the undocumented to fully contribute to society, isn’t college the way to balance that concern out”

    The only thing that i want to give the undocumented is the strong impression that they should leave the United States and tell everyone in their homeland that is DOES NOT PAY to come here illegally.

  35. Rick Bentley

    “If it were left to him, where would I have been after high school?” Deported, shai. In a country where you had a legal status. Not here taking jobs away from the people who built this country.

  36. Rick Bentley

    Moon-howler I see your arguement but

    “Rick, what I am talking about is in-state tuition. I want all kids who live in the state to get in-state tuition. That isn’t 2 sets of rules. That’s one set of rules. You live here for a year, you are eligible. ”

    LEGALLY here for a year – fine. If your parents are legally paying taxes in to the State.

    “Those immigrant kids are here through no fault of their own.”

    Well lots of American kids have a hard time getting the money they need for college, because their parents can’t or won’t pay (or borrow) the “fair share” the system assumes. Happens to millions of kids. No crocodile tears for them.

    THIS WHOLE ISSUE GOES AWAY once we start reliably deporting illegal immigrants.

  37. Rick Bentley

    posting as Pinko, thanks for the convenient link. It proves my point. You do NOT need to be 24 to establish independence.

  38. Rick Bentley

    So I guess some of you want to change the criteria. You can be 24 or have kids or be legally emancipated, OR if your parents are illegal you can get a special pass.

    Two Americas, two sets of rules. It seems so normal to many of you here.

  39. Rick Bentley

    “Rick, have you ever met with an undocumented immigrant student? ”

    No – but I know plenty of young people who can’t or couldn’t attend college because their parents didn’t have the money to help them pay tuition.

    “What drives me nuts sometimes is how people like you sit back, sulk, and instead of using some pragmatic realism to approach this issue, they resign to puerile, inchoate, and demeaning language.”

    Deporting illegal aliens rather than rewarding them and making them feel like part of our society is pragmatic, it does happen, and it will continue.

    “no habla englais”… what is that supposed to infer?

    That a lot of Spanish-speaking people play dumb when they are caught breaking the law. I have examples where it has personally affected me, but I’ll spare you. It’s part of the whole “Two Americas, two sets of rules” concept that I object to.

    “Yes, we’ve heard it a million times- we have laws on the books. No, America hasn’t rewarded any undocumented immigrant. And more importantly, these laws are a bit antiquated and doesn’t fairly address the complex issues of a broken system. ”

    Fix them for everybody, not just the illegal aliens’ kids. I absolutely will object as hard as I can to creating a special priviledge only available to those who engaged in illegal behavior or whose parents did.

    “You have a system to awards several hundred thousand greencards in a lottery each year, yet we’d have people like you complain that Americans are being squeezed out of opportunities. A Cuban landing on shore gets preferencial treatment, but God forbid an illegal immigrant try with all the odds against him attempt to go to college, we must apply the rule of law, and erect every imaginable wall around him because THAT is the principled way; THAT is what’s right and just for our society.”

    I haven’t complained about legal immigration. I think that it does need oversight and that big business misleads us about how much is needed for competitiveness – it’s really just about enabling them to maximize profit and the expense of labor – but that’s off-topic.

    “No one is asking for a handout, or to be awarded what isn’t theirs to have.”

    You’re wrong. nearly everyone in America is whining for handouts at this point in history. Only in such an environment would this discussion even take place. There are paths to college for children of illegal alien parents – this whole discussion is just about whether those paths could be made easier at taxpayer expense and whether special rules should be enacted for children of illegal aliens. A funny thing to do if you feel, as I do, that instead of encouraging illegal immigration we should be discouraging it.

  40. Rick Bentley

    Let me clarify me earlier statement shai. If you’re here legal now then more power to you. But when you cry about your earlier status, I have no sympathy.

    The red carpet has been out for far too long. Illegal immigration is allowed to flourish simply because it lowers American wages and makes the rich richer. Most Americans are well aware of this and fed up.

    So don’t expect any change on this issue.

  41. Elena

    Rick, there is a huge difference, there are pleny of in-state schools that kids can attend, you don’t HAVE to go out of state, THAT is a choice. However, NOT ever qualifying, is quite different.

  42. Rick Bentley

    “Not ever qualifying” and having to take the same path that many citizens’ kids do – declare independence and establish legal residency yourself.

    If the parents are here illegally, they should be deported forethwith – not maintaining a home for a kid who is about to receive a subsidy from State taxpayers. Keep that in mind and it undermines your whole arguement. You are trying to establish de facto rights for people who oughtn’t be here.

  43. Rick Bentley

    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. And my neighborhood was becoming hell in recent years.

  44. Rick Bentley

    “We don’t belong here but don’t force our kid to declare independent status from us because we are here with no intention to leave”. Crazy. No respect for our laws unless and until somebody wants the in-state subsidy out of the taxpayer’s pockets.

    What we should do is detect these situations, maybe encourage students in this situation to apply for some non-existent scholorships, then deport the parents, and tell the kid that if he is legal to be here and stays that they can establish residency.

  45. Rick Bentley

    he or she I should say

  46. Elena

    Rick,
    I moved out when I was 18, I know all about independence. However, even the kids ARE NOT legal residents if their parents brought them here. Now what?

  47. Rick Bentley

    if the kid is not here legally – then they should not be here, much less attending school on the taxpayer’s dime.

  48. shai

    “What we should is maybe detect these situations, maybe encourage students in this situation to apply for some non-existent scholarships, then deport the parents..”

    – a very fair and pragmatic idea. I should read your every post now with reverence for there appears non more wise, informed, and reasoned than you. the world needs more of your kind.

  49. Rick Bentley

    Thank you so much shai.

  50. shai

    We all pay municipal tax, property tax, sales tax, state & federal taxes- legal or illegal! Just because your false and myopically moronic inferences are based on the myths perpetuated by your nativists, Lou Dobbs xenophobes, closet racists, and usual Heritage, FAUR, CIR drivel doesn’t make it fact!

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