There is probably no bigger immigration issue than the one involving Israel and Palestine. Currently both of these sides are engaged in open warfare. I have said ‘sides’ because there is no state of Palestine. Obviously, there is a state of Israel, formed May 14, 1948. Much of the deep seated bone of contention is that Israel was formed on former Palestinian lands.
War in this area and between Israel and Palestine is certainly not unusual. It has been going on since the birth of the state of Israel. In fact, it went on before that. Yesterday afternoon, Israeli troops crossed over into Gaza, which is that little area about twice the size of DC on the Mediterranean between Israel and Egypt.
Israel’s objective is to stop the firing of rockets from the Gaza strip into Israel. Who could blame them? A week ago, Israel began firing into Gaza. Since this did not seem to work and the rockets are still sailing into Israeli territory. Yesterday, Israel decided to show Hamas, the ruling elected government in Gaza, it meant business. The battle on the ground now enters its second day. Israel has stated that it is not attempting to topple Hamas, only to upgrade security and to stop the firing of rockets into Israel.
As stated above, there is there is no state of Palestine. It has three non-contiguous areas: Gaza, Golan Heights, and the West Bank. Just bringing up the name Palestine can bring about a fight. It is a term used since Roman times. In this thread, it simply means the area that would be the proposed state of Palestine.
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is extremely complex. Explaining the intricacies of the region is far beyond my limited area of expertise. People in regions all over the United States are demonstrating for and against Israel. Emotions are running high. Emotions in the region are even higher and hopefully will not spill over into other countries or regions. The Middle East always heightens our alert in at home.
So here we sit watching a war unfold—a war that is an on-going flare up from decades old conflict on the one hand. On the other hand, this war, like other wars, has the potential of blowing up in our faces and involving other countries of the world, includes ultimately, the USA. Certainly our foreign policy favors the state of Israel which brings about the wrath of other Arabic states in the Middle East.
Finding a stopping place on this subject is impossible, so the readers and contributors of Anti-bvbl are just going to have to take over.
Addendum: If you are like me, the middle east conflict is so complex it takes on a blur of sorts. Here is a link to a timeline that highlights Israel and Hamas difficulties.
MH – Unfortunately this is a conflict that really has gone on for centuries in one way or the other. I don’t really see it ending anytime soon. As you point out, it is a very complex problem. Both sides really don’t want to give in or want to back down, so it is something that will be hard to resolve. Thanks for presenting a good balanced solution – a lot of the press has been kind of slanted toward the Palestinian side in my personal opinion. In any event, it is a tragic thing and a lot of deaths keep occurring on both sides.
However, in my own personal opinion, Hamas is an evil organization and unless they make a 180 degree reversal somehow – their stated intent is and always has been the complete destruction of Israel. As a result, I can understand the Israelis wanting to destroy them, or at least take out their ability to attack Israel. Of course, others are free to disagree with me, but that’s the way I see it.
I meant to say “Thanks for presenting a good balanced DESCRIPTION” – not SOLUTION. I don’t think anyone has been able to come up with a good solution for this, unfortunately – and it will be hard to do so. Will be interesting to see how Obama handles this, as well as his Secretary of State Clinton.
I struggled with it to be honest. There is so much I don’t know on a collision course with what I do know. I have such mixed feelings about this conflict. I see why the Palestinians have been pissed off for years. I worked with a friend whose mother was a Christian from Jerusalem. She was extremely bitter over her losses when the state of Israel was formed. I learned stuff talking to her that I sure never learned in school.
I understand Israel’s need and desire to exist. I understand their aggression and respect their military prowess. I understand why they don’t want to be continually shelled. I understand wanting to stomp on a government who denies your right to exist.
From what I can gather, Hamas is an example of everything gone wrong. Hamas was fairly elected in a democratic process, but yes, they are evil and have as a stated goal the desire to annihilate Israel. The Palestinian people elected a government that is not in its best interest and not interested in peace. The US cut off all aid to Palestine, didn’t it? The area suffers from high unemployment and is extremely poor.
Just a horrible situation and now the humanitarian situation is critical. Why is Hamas still firing those stupid rockets? They need to stop doing that.
I think that Palestine/Israel is extremely hard to draw a conclusion on. The more I find out, the less I know. I suppose I will continue to see both sides.
The whole situation is a terrible and pitiful situation and the easy thing for the rest of the world to do is throw up our hands and walk away. But that would be too easy and sentence millions of people to living in violence for the rest of their lives.
From a distance, its easy to see both sides. Why keep firing the rockets? Well, why does Israel seem to invade time and again? What came first the chicken or the egg?
If I was Palestinian, I’d be mad as hell that they took MY land to form another country. My relatives saw/lived that in Ireland with the Brits. I’d want my homeland back and I’d want the invaders out. I would stop at nothing to accomplish that.
Tell me, who gave anyone the right to seize land in 1948 to give it to Israel? Did anyone ask the Palestinians if they’d mind?
If I was an Israeli, I’d see my country as living under siege from a people that are intent on destroying all I was and I too, would fight like hell to survive. I would never give up and anything and everything would be on the table.
Israel isn’t going anywhere, neither are the Palestinian people. They too, need a designated homeland and the two nations are going to have reach some sort of an accord where the right to exist for both nations is protected. Neither side is going to win all it wants but without a compromise on both sides there will be no peace. It will take third party nations that support each side (Egypt, Syria and yes, Iran on the Palestinian side) and the US and Great Britian and France on the Israeli side to offer support for the accord or else it will have no legitimacy on one side or the other. Lets not forget Russia and China as world players either. They have to be onboard also.
Its not quite hopeless, pretty close, but not yet.
Lucky Duck, I am just glad to talk to people who see both sides. Most of the people I discuss this with are very pro-Israel and simply refuse to see the Palestinian side. In my house, discussion of this topic is akin to throwing a lighted match in a can of gasoline. I see both sides and like you, no easy answers.
I even had someone once tell me I was anti-semitic because I saw both sides Palestinian conflict. I was highly insulted, naturally.
The creation of Israel was the time to broker a long lasting solution, but the world failed miserably on so many levels during that time in history. The Arabs thought that they would overwhelm the Jews if given the choice between two states or fighting, they chose to fight, believing they would win. The Jews, having been almost exterminated, had the kind of resolve that only comes with having survived through utter unimaginable horrors. In the end, the Arab world was shocked, and instead of accepting the new state, they dug their heels in, hoping to one day destroy the State of Israel. Israel, in turn, still in a mind set of survival, has never come to terms that the Arabs/Palestinians, deserve the rights of decent and fair treatment with hope for their children to prosper and thrive.
I agree with much of what Lucky Duck has said, but I diverge when it comes to Israel willingness to compromise, they did, they gave back Gaza and look where it got them. The EXACT reasons for being reticent to give Gaza back has come to fruition, Hamas has come into power, an organziation bent on the destruction of Jews, and is now in a tactical position to fire missiles.
In 1948, the Brits had been occupying Palestine for some time, they left and in its place a free for all took place….winner take all and the world watched to let the “best man win”.
I can also see both sides. But I saw Netanyahu (spell?) on Wolf Blitzer his morning and he made a pretty good point. If we had rockets being fired on our cities, you can be the U.S. would respond. I just hope they don’t go overboard and hit civilians like those Hamas rockets intend to do.
We should remove ourselves from this conflict completely and especially cut our ties with Israel. They have over 250 nuclear weapons. They’ll be fine.
I agree that Israel DID give back the Gaza strip to the Palestinians, and their worst fears were realized which is why they didn’t want to give it back in the first place. Unfortunately, Israel giving back the Gaza strip wasn’t enough to appease the Palestinians. I haven’t seen the Palestinians willing to compromise on anything – they want even more territory from Israel – a good percentage of them want Israel to cease to exist.
As has been said above, it is a highly controversial topic and not too many people can see both sides of it. I am obviously very biased toward Israel. I do believe until Hamas ceases to exist, or even more unlikely – gives up their position that Israel should be destroyed – by force if necessary – I don’t see any resolution forthcoming. Hamas won a large role in the government there, when they defeated the Fatah. The whole thing is very unfortunate, but I think the problem will continue to be with us for a very long time to come. I’m just being realistic about it – there’s been lots of attempts to solve it, and I’m sure there will continue to be, but I just don’t see it being resolved anytime soon.
There was much brokering behind closed doors. Ironically, some of the largest demonstrations over the incursion are in Great Britain. I feel Great Britain sold out the Palestinians back in ’47. As a League of Nations Protectorate they had been in the region since WWI. They had promised the Palestinians statehood since 1920. They sold out. I am sure there is another side to this. I just don’t know it. One would think that those in charge would have thought all this out better and had a little foresight. 60 some years later emotions are just as raw.
Elena, I agree. I do think Israel has compromised, especially withdrawing from Gaza several years ago. Hamas seems hell bent on destruction. What they are doing is destroying the very people who elected them. It seems to be a conundrum.
I cannot blame Israel for going in to wipe out those missles. No one should be expected to sit back and take missles being fired on your population from strategic points. We certainly wouldn’t accept Mexico or Canada firing on us.
I am heartsick over the innocent life that is going to be lost because of it. I am sickened over the ultimate destruction of an already impoverished region. This is what happens when extremists get a foothold in the door.
Agree M-H, very sad, all very sad
I agree Israel has compromised when it returned the Gaza Strip. But the Palestinians are still without a homeland and its not looking like one is coming in the immediate future. So the feeling on their side of wanting more is, to me, understandable. Again, what is it the Palistinians are wanting, more of their ancestral lands that were taken in 1948?
There is not one iota of trust in that region. Thats why its going to take outside powers that are respected (or feared) on both sides to solve it.
Israel was created with UN Resolution 181 and its not going away, but no representative from Palestine (the British vote was NOT made with their interest or input in mind) voted. So some land compromises on BOTH sides are going to be necessary or they’ll just keep hammering away at each other and slaughtering their youth, and their futures.
Can’t figure the Palestinians out….they kick the meanest pitbull on the block between the legs, then can’t figure out why it bites them. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
They were very close, with Bill Clinton and the Dayton Agreement. But Arafat, unwilling to move forward, instead called for a fatwah that brought death to so many.
Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917
“Dear Lord Rothschild,
His Majesty’s Government views with favour the establishment of a
national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate
the achievement of this objective, it being clearly understood that nothing
shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religous rights of existing
non-Jewish communities in Palestine …
Yours sincerely,
Arthur James Balfour ”
A long and complex history? One could say.
Slow, I am howling with laughter over your analogy. Thanks for a good laugh. And very true on some levels, mean as it is. I hope you will give me permission to quote you.
Elena, yes they were close. I do not understand why Arafat dug his heels in. He had a chance to redeem himself and to be one of the three who brought peace to the middle east. I have read that was one of Clinton’s biggest disappointments. Maybe he will get another chance with leaders who realize that compromise is the ONLY way this situation will ever be resolved. They can’t all kill each other.
Talk to the Poles. The most conquered country on earth. Last round, Israel won with lots of support. Think that’s simply how it works on this earth.
Israel can take care of themselved. They certainly let their military/intelligence deal with things and they disregard any armchair quarterbacks.
Moon Howler,
Feel free to use my analogy. Even I know not to slap a Hell’s Angel in the face…I’ll get hurt….bad. The Palestinians consider it unfair….right, who said life is fair? Oh, and while I’m thinking about it. The term “hate speech” gets used a lot around these parts to refer to anything that doesn’t equate to “PWC needs to become a third world cesspool immediately”. For those listening closely, “Bring back the ovens” has been uttered with respect to this conflict. Now THAT’S hate speech. Follow along closely: Enforce our laws, not hate speech……Bring back the ovens, hate speech.
Slow, thanks for the use of the analogy. One of the better ones I have heard. Hell’s Angel one wasn’t bad either.
Glad I gave you an opportunity to pontificate about hate speech. Everyone gets an opinion around these parts.
Where is Obama on this subject…? Interesting how he puts out information about just about everything, except for this conflict. If he doesn’t speak out soon he is only going to have a bigger problem on his hands come the 20th. Hamas is already calling him out.
A video that is interesting viewing (slated to the Orthodox Jewish point of view but still interesting) – about the Obama and his advisors’ views on Israel. It was put out before the election but is still relevant (or even moreso): http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=193353
hello – I agree it will be interesting how Obama handles this. In addition to the US economy, this may very well be one of his first big tests when he takes office. The jury is definitely out on where his views are, but some of his advisors have views sympathetic to the Palestinians.
Hi GR, I find it odd that he has been putting out his ideas on just about every subject, except for this one… the only thing he has said about this conflict is that “there is only one president at a time”, I don’t get it, he doesn’t say that about the economy. I commend him for his efforts to fix the economy but he can’t just over look this issue hoping that it just goes away before the 20th. The longer he waits the worse it’s going to get, Hamas is already talking smack about him and he still says nothing. He needs to grow a pair and speak up before this gets totally out of hand, or at the very least just talk about it. So far he hasn’t done or said a thing which is somewhat disturbing to me. By the way, that was an interesting video… your right, it does show his advisors obvious sympathetic views to the Palestinians which is a little scary as well. I think that is why your not hearing anything from him yet, I think he is just hoping it goes away so that he doesn’t have to address it.
Hello,
Obama has addressed it, quite clearly actually. He said that is His house with HIS children was targeted by Hammas missiles, he would not sit idly by and do nothing. Not a quote, but you get the gist.
OK, I hadn’t heard that statement by Obama – so it sounds hopeful at least. Time will tell however, how he handles it as he takes office.
It’s better than a lot of the news media (such as CNN) who make it sound like Israel is doing this basically unprovoked and giving a rather one-sided coverage on this.
Hi Elena, I’ve never heard that from Obama either… Do you know where I can find that statement by him? I would be interested in seeing it for myself.
GR, your right about the CNN coverage, I was watching a little this morning and they make it seem like Israel is just giving them a pounding for no apparent reason.
Hello, Obama came out and said that there is only one president of the United States. I am glad he is keeping his trap shut. Foreign countries should not be getting conflicting messages from the United States. Right now, George Bush is the president and it should be he whose voice is heard by all foreign countries.
hello -the worst thing CNN said was “Israel launched the very first rocket in this attack”. They failed to mention Hamas broke the cease fire earlier in the year, not to mention all the rocket attacks, suicide bombers, etc. that Israel has endured. They also alluded to the fact that Israel had no right to this territory – which Israel DID give back to the Palestinians, only to have it backfire on them with Hamas using it as a base to launch their attacks. They would have criticized Israel for NOT returning this to the Palestinians, yet fail to mention they did and what do they get in return for this? Hamas firing missiles at Isreal from Gaza.
MH – I would agree with you that there is only one president at a time and right now that is George Bush. I’m willing to wait and see how Obama handles this once in office – it should be interesting to see what he does.
Hi Moon-howler – point taken, however, doesn’t the economy affect most foreign countries as well? So he is to keep his trap shut on some issues, not all of them? He can pick and choose what issues he wants to address I suppose but he is only going to make it harder on himself when this problem is still there in 2 weeks. Also, he has made his views known about Iraq and Afghanistan as well as Russia (concerning Georgia) and other issues about other countries. Why not this one? I don’t buy the one president line…
I raced again to respond to Hello before reading all the comments. First off, Hi, Hello. Where have you been hanging out? Haven’t seen you around these parts for a couple weeks. Welcome back.
Fox makes it sound like Palestine is nuking Israel so perhaps all is balanced out. Elena, I also heard Obama make a statement similar to the one you paraphrased. I do not recall where.
Don’t you all feel that Obama will take a Clintonesk stance on Palestine and Israel? I think he will talk to Hamas. He doesn’t believe in not speaking. I think he will use communication skills to find peace in addition to negotiations and compromise.
Gainesville, what is your opinion of that video?
I think he is using the one president line to avoid a sticky wicket hoping that it’s resolved before the 20th…
Hi Moon, I’ve been a silent observer I suppose for the past few weeks. I just got really turned off to the site for a while.
Like Gainesville, I’m looking forward to what Obama is going to do with this situation but I would like to see him be a little more open about his views of it.
Gainsville, CNN sure wasn’t being fair and balanced if it said Israel lobbed the first rocket on this one. That shelling was on even before the temporary cease fire had expired, hadn’t it?
Hello, The economy is one thing. That basically involves our country and policy. Yes, it affects other countries but only as an aside. The policies set are completely the responsibility of our sovereign nation and not a foreign agent.
Conversely, our foreign policy can only be implemented by George Bush until Jan 20. He is the leader that the foreign nations need to be listening to regardless of how right or how wrong he is. Obama should not be commenting on things over which he has no control with foreign nations. He is doing the right thing. He is keeping his trap shut so that the current president can deal with a delicate situation. He either agrees 100% with President Bush or he undermines him. if he agrees publically, why bother to speak.
Again, that is a good point Moon, but we don’t know if he agrees or disagrees with anything Bush has said or done on the issue. Remember when he ran against Bush before the election, he sure didn’t mind pointing out everything he disagreed with then.
Hello, care to share what turned you off in particular? (I notice you still read though…I can understand that)
Bush isn’t doing much, but he didn’t do much the last time for a week or 2. Not a criticism, just an observation.
Pardon me for not being understanding but I want both sides to just stop it. Right now. Does that sound parental enough? Actually, I like what Slowpoke said and he did give me permission to quote him:
According to Slow:
Hello, yea but that’s electioneering. He certainly disagreed with Hillary and then nominated her for Secretary of State.
If I recall correctly, his main departure from Bush doctrinaire was about establishing dialogue with Hamas. I think we will have to wait and see. For that matter, Bush might be pulling him in on some of this but still it should be Bush’s voice.
Yeah, I read that from Slow and it’s spot on. I agree with you, in a perfect world both sides would just stop and live in peace. However, when your dealing with Hamas who just indiscriminately lobs rockets at you ever day what are you to do (47 on Sunday and 16 so far today)? Mahmaud al-Zahar (a senior Hamas official) today said that they will not end the rocket attacks and even praises these attacks by what he calls ‘resistance men’.
I was just really turned off by constant name calling (mostly anti-immigrant when someone is against illegal immigration) and what seemed to me to be open bigotry towards white men. The most telling thing is when something would be said is a derogatory manner about white men nobody, except for myself, would question it. Just about everyone here claims to be against any kind of bigotry – but when it’s about white men it seems to be just fine.
MH – regarding that video link I posted – I only saw it yesterday for the first time after a friend sent it to me. It does concern me about some of the statements of some of his advisors on that video – let’s put it that way. So I’m concerned, but willing to wait and see what Obama actually DOES (as opposed to even what he says) about the Israel/Palestine problem – after he takes office.
I do think hello has a very good point: if Obama is commenting on other things that affect the world, then he really can’t pick and choose what topics to comment on. So I am slightly revising my statement earlier. However, I do agree that there is only one president at a time, and conflicting statements on US foreign policy lead to confusion.
In regards to establishing a dialogue with Hamas – I thought we don’t negotiate with terrorists. I don’t think we should dialogue Hamas until the move away from their position that they are for the complete destruction of Israel. Then again Obama wants to talk to that nutty Iranian leader too (Mahmoud Ahmadinejad) who I feel is just as bad as Hamas. Well, I hope something good will come out of this.
I hope some good comes out too. I am not sure we live in a world where you can just shut down people you consider a terrorist, especially when they are a duly elected government. I think there will have to be dialogue and I agree, they must be made to understand that Israel will exist and its non-existence must be removed from their stated objectives.
Not speaking or formally recognizing these clowns doesn’t advance the cause of peace. Gainesville, I am impressed that you can spell that Iranian jerk’s name, but can you say it? I felt the video was one sided and painted an unfair depiction of Obama. In fairness though, I had a couple things going on here and couldn’t give it 100% concentration.
Hello, I hope you won’t let the sentiments of one person color your attitude about the entire blog. I don’t like the attacks on white people either and generally ignore them. I don’t like attacks on any group of people based on their race or ethnicity.
As for anti-immigrant vs anti-illegal immigration, I think I have said before, I am guilty also of it and I will explain why. Most of us here, not all, but most, have an issue with illegal immigration. I would go so far as to say that illegal immigrants also have a problem with it. Laws and policy are outdated and need to be rewritten to meet the needs of our country.
Too many people who are very verbal about illegal immigrants fail to distinguish between those here legally and those here illegally. Additionally, how do we as regular joe Q Citizen tell the difference? So I shorten it. Basically, I’ll stop when others stop broad-brushing.
Hopefully we can get over our disagreement over semantics. I think you and I and you and others here have much common ground.
MH – I will confess I cut/paste the idot from Iran’s name! No, I can’t pronounce it either! I wasn’t going to even try to spell it so I cheated!
The video I posted is definitely slanted toward the Jewish point of view – it’s intended audience. No question about that.
I would agree to a dialog with Hamas IF and ONLY IF they agree to reverse their position on the complete destruction of Israel. They haven’t budged on that so far despite numerous attempts by others to get them to do so. However, you make a point that they are an elected gov’t, which does make them different than other terrorist organizations. I suppose as they already are “legitimate”, having a dialog with them doesn’t make them any more legitimate. I have a problem with making terrorst organizations legitimate by dialoguing with them. That said, I’m not sure even though the idiot from Iran (I won’t try to cut/paste his name again as I don’t want to bother looking it up) is part of a legitimate gov’t – that we should engage in dialog with him. He’s already made it pretty clear what his point of view is about several different things (Iran’s nuclear power, Israel, the Holocaust, etc.) and it doesn’t seem like he’s open to changing his beliefs.
Where does Hamas purchase their weapons?
I believe that Hamas purchases its weapons from Iran. Syria usually has some arms deals going on also.
Gainesville, I don’t think anything but death is going to change Hamas. I wouldn’t even have a clue about how to break the cycle of hatred and doom inside the minds of Palestinians in Gaza. Why would they elect a government that was hell bent on getting them killed? How do you tell them this? Are the minds so full of dispair that they cannot see past this?
If I were King for a day, I would demand statehood for Palestine. Perhaps that would give them some national pride. I would also infuse the new country with foreign aid that had serious stipulations about what the money could and could not be spent on. I don’t know what I would do with the non-contiguous situation of the nation. That is a problem that should have been ironed out decades ago.
yes most likely they purchased weapons from Iran, or China or Russia, or maybe even Israel themselves via the US in accordance with the truce? Maybe Israel offered them weapons if they promised to adhere to the truce? Maybe Israel provided them with weapons in a good faith effort to support a truce.
DB – Israel would never offer Hamas weapons. The only thing Hamas would do with those weapons would be to use them against Israel.
MH – I have to sadly admit you are right about Hamas – that death is the only thing that is going to change them. Your description about the cycle of hatred and doom in the minds of the Palestinians is a good one. It is hard to figure why they voted for Hamas given that the only thing Hamas was going to do was to provoke Israel to defend itself and try to wipe out Hamas’ ability to shoot weapons at them.
I do believe foreign aid was given to the Palestinians with stipulations how the money was to be used. This was sometime back – I’d have to try and search and refresh my memory on that. The idea was just what you were saying, to try and help the country’s economy and help it prosper.
The non-contiguous nature of the country is a problem. I’m not sure there are any other nations like that. However, one would think the country could be set up as several states or provinces or whatever they want to call it – with a local government in each “state” and then the country’s government on top of that.
Anyway, unfortunately this is a problem that is going to be with us for a very long time and there will be no easy solution. I wouldn’t want the job of having to try and broker peace between the Israeli’s and the Palestinian’s. It is no easy job, as past presidents have found out.
Gainesvilleresident,
Maybe there was a catch to the truce. Maybe the catch was that Israel gave them weapons so that they may be seen/felt as equals. Maybe the weapons came from Israel or the US. And maybe during the entire truce Israel knew exactly what would unfold for them when the truce expired. They predicted it and it came to fruition. Iran is farther from Hamas than the Israelis and the Americans when weapons are concerned.